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DTT Commercial Multiplexes (was OneVision, Boxer etc...)

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Comments

  • #212
    mrdtv
    Closed Accounts Posts: 456 ✭✭mrdtv


    slegs wrote: »
    there is already a very active thread on this topic in the stickies

    Yes, but its far more important than Boxer. This is like the 1950s and 1960s TV standards debate. I suspect Irish terrestrial TV will be in PAL for quite a few years yet, despite the aspirations of stalwarts on this reflector. This issue is Numero Uno in Digital TV in Ireland as it has been since UK DTT begain in 1998 from Divis and NOTHING HAS BEEN RESOLVED!


  • #213
    mrdtv
    Closed Accounts Posts: 456 ✭✭mrdtv


    tretle wrote: »
    RTE aren't obliged to give away infrastructure they have built with tax payers money to any company planning to use it for commercial purposes. 20mill was less than what should have been asked for seeing as how much infrastructure boxer would have received in comparison to rte.
    The only reason boxer pulled out was they realized their business plan was a failure because they most likely did the research of the Irish market after getting the application not before. The 20mill is nothing for a company like boxer, and although its alot for most people that shouldn't cloud your judgment here.

    Somebody has to a) raise the 20 million b) convince the banks c) pay the interest charges d) convince the shareholders and e) secure an acceptable IRR. In the Republic of Ireland this is currently a challenging call with today's risk averse investors. This is why Boxer et al pulled out and why there will be no other takers. RTE won't want to be left holding the proverbial baby in the bathwater and you can be quite sure they have their own investment bank advisers. Unless the Irish Government writes the cheque, very unlikely in my view, it will simply be deferred. AGAIN.


  • #214
    Elmo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    mrdtv wrote: »
    Somebody has to a) raise the 20 million b) convince the banks c) pay the interest charges d) convince the shareholders and e) secure an acceptable IRR. In the Republic of Ireland this is currently a challenging call with today's risk averse investors. This is why Boxer et al pulled out and why there will be no other takers. RTE won't want to be left holding the proverbial baby in the bathwater and you can be quite sure they have their own investment bank advisers. Unless the Irish Government writes the cheque, very unlikely in my view, it will simply be deferred. AGAIN.

    And why should RTÉ (and their investment bank advisors) take the risk when Boxer and their banks/shareholders won't?

    Denis O'Brien is very rich he could possible write a personnel cheque for 20million tomorrow.


  • #215
    BigMoose
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,230 ✭✭✭BigMoose


    mrdtv wrote:
    Somebody has to a) raise the 20 million b) convince the banks

    Why do you seem so het up on the idea that large companies need the help of banks to raise 20million? It's small change to many large corporations, who wouldn't need to go near a bank to raise it. I know of many large corporations who waste more than that on bad ideas without flinching....


  • #216
    patrick whitty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 90 ✭✭patrick whitty


    why on earth would anybody invest in dtt when rte and all english channels are free to air what could they add only sports and that would be limited due to sky and setanta.
    patrick


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  • #217
    STB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭STB


    mrdtv wrote: »
    Somebody has to a) raise the 20 million b) convince the banks c) pay the interest charges d) convince the shareholders and e) secure an acceptable IRR. In the Republic of Ireland this is currently a challenging call with today's risk averse investors. This is why Boxer et al pulled out and why there will be no other takers. RTE won't want to be left holding the proverbial baby in the bathwater and you can be quite sure they have their own investment bank advisers. Unless the Irish Government writes the cheque, very unlikely in my view, it will simply be deferred. AGAIN.

    RTE holding what proverbial baby ?

    RTE are tasked with rolling out digitall TV for the PSB channels anyway and to be on course for ASO. Its an EU directive. AGAIN.

    Why would the Irish government be writing a cheque for anything ?

    RTE are funded by the licence fee & commercial revenue.

    No other takers etc. You can stop the back slapping. A 5 year old child could tell you what a good and bad investment would be in the current climate. The country is in the throes of economic recession.


  • #218
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 96,078 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    watty wrote: »
    Sky & UPC have practically all the people that want payTV. About 70% of households. To compete as PayTV, DTT has to have SkySports & Setanta much cheaper (which it can't) and also have about 200 channels.
    So 70% of people already get the terresterial channels.
    Can we assume that the best of the rest of the channels on Free DTT would also be carried the same way ?

    When DTT rolls out here only the 30% of people getting Irish terresterial channels by aerial will have to buy a set top box. The rest already have access to them.

    Of that 30% some no doubt are in community owned self-help TV schemes. These could buy a few boxes for FTA instead of each person buying a box. Which would give another chunk of people who won't be signing up to PayTV with an individual box. If they just have an antenna and co-ax they could transmit the channels on the VHF bands or the parts of UHF that are are part of the digital divide.


  • #219
    Elmo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    4 channels to be put on DTT.
    Those 25% of viewers with Analogue now have access to Pay TV and by that I mean PPV, Subscriptions and On Demand.
    Digital Aertel, 3text and Teachs4.

    I think those extras will be a selling point.

    Plus any extra FTA channels including BBC NI, UTV, C4 and new Irish broadcasters later on in the coming years.


  • #220
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 22,785 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    tretle wrote: »
    The 20mill is nothing for a company like boxer, and although its alot for most people that shouldn't cloud your judgment here.
    20 million is an awfull lot for a company to borrow from a bank or as a corporate bond just for a deposit with a weak proposal for Irish DTT.
    The swedish government were not going to pump those kind of funds into an irish project even in a good economic environment,never mind todays one.
    elmo wrote:
    And why should RTÉ (and their investment bank advisors) take the risk when Boxer and their banks/shareholders won't?
    Haven't they spent the money already? Having boxer or whoever to rent some capacity on it is irrelevant to the fact that they were obliged to set DTT up.
    As I said,they knew damn well that they had to do this and that they could get the funding to do it and worry about the costs later like any public service entity in Ireland seems to do!
    At worst they could provide the BBC's and ITV's on it themselves to us for a nominal fee.They know this.

    Mind you if they are reading this thread,Might I suggest that they have a pow wow with Eamon Ryan and add a compulsorary fiver onto the licence fee and make it no choice that everyone receives the main UK channels on this system.
    It's the only way to go.
    Denis O'Brien is very rich he could possible write a personnel cheque for 20million tomorrow.
    I'm sure he could.
    However,I wouldn't be surprised that Mr O' Briens Company was going to be just the figurehead over this venture which would wind up all of itself if it folded.

    You can be pretty sure that O'Brien wasnt going to risk his personal funds in this.
    It would be some holding company or other that would have been borrowing in its own right.
    That of course couldnt happen in the current environment hence the pull out.

    O Brien putting his own money into this would be like you and me striking matches to our own €50 notes- senseless.


  • #221
    Elmo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    Deleted User wrote: »
    O Brien putting his own money into this would be like you and me striking matches to our own €50 notes- senseless.

    O'Brien owns 100% of Communicorp which I personally find very strange.

    Haven't they spent the money already? Having boxer or whoever to rent some capacity on it is irrelevant to the fact that they were obliged to set DTT up.

    Yes they have spent some money but again why should RTÉ have to hang around for Boxer to start up before making any money. RTÉ probably have already lost money on DTT. We don't know what other issues where involved the 20million may have been one of many issues surrounding this deal.

    A few months ago someone on boards was suggesting that Boxer and Communicorp where having their own internal tif. (Not substancitated in anyway and should only be viewed as an opinion.)


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  • #222
    tretle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 59 ✭✭tretle


    Black Briar - sounds like you wanted boxer to get money handed to them by us the tax payer/tv license holder to charge us more on top of that to watch their pay tv lineup. In which case I'm sort of confused, I mean why the hell should we have. RTENL set up that infrastructure with Irish cash, they were obliged to set up the fta mux at the very least. They held up to their side of the bargain, boxer did not. End of story, boxer should not have been given anything for free with the intent to charge irish citenzens.


  • #223
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 22,785 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Elmo wrote: »
    O'Brien owns 100% of Communicorp which I personally find very strange.
    yeah but it's a limited company.
    Yes they have spent some money but again why should RTÉ have to hang around for Boxer to start up before making any money. RTÉ probably have already lost money on DTT. We don't know what other issues where involved the 20million may have been one of many issues surrounding this deal.
    RTÉ can't lose money on DTT,it's a capital investment in transmission equipment.It is capitalised in their books.
    They can't operate after ASO without that equipment.
    It would be like a dairy farmer with no cows.
    I wasn't suggesting RTE hang around for boxer but I do suggest that RTENL should not have been the one negotiating the rent of the tx equipment.
    Thats should have been done by an independent body.
    trettle wrote:
    Black Briar - sounds like you wanted boxer to get money handed to them by us the tax payer/tv license holder to charge us more on top of that to watch their pay tv lineup.
    Nope.
    I'm being very straightfoward in what I think.
    The €20 million was a ridiculous ask.
    The TX equipment should have been leased from a finance house with whoever wins the contract to provide the private services paying a fair rent providing an adequate contribution.

    Mind you thats not the model I'd have liked.
    I've already stated that the way foward now is to slap a fiver on the licence fee and let RTE provide the UK five channels on DTT and let that be that.

    Way back in 2001,I'd have been very much in favour of its tv .
    But hey here in Ireland,we'd prefer to pay huge salaries to civil servants in quango's that don't do much than to act while the iron was hot.
    Back in 2001,the internet idea was the paying proposition that was going to shore up the thing.

    There was some hope back then.
    None now.


  • #224
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,461 ✭✭✭✭watty


    It'sTV was brain dead. Their whole financial model was based on selling broadband. Which the DVB-RCT can only do for about 100 people on a mast. Not 1,000 ot 10,000.

    In UK Crowncastle and Arqiva own the sites and gear. Here RTENL own the sites and gear.

    RTENL was not asking an unreasonable deposit considering their outlay is x4 or more. Also considering the Dogs in the Street know that if anyone is stupid enough to take an Irish DTT pay TV licence it will go bust.

    It couldn't be done in UK or Spain. Here the market is 10x less favorable with PayTV near saturation and SkY and UPC offering better services than Boxer ever could.

    I beleive Boxer bid to get the licence, not deploy it as "beauty" for an overall plan. Even if RTE had offered credit this would have fallen through. It couldn't possibly do anything other than lose about €40M a year.


  • #225
    Elmo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I've already stated that the way foward now is to slap a fiver on the licence fee and let RTE provide the UK five channels on DTT and let that be that.

    But hey here in Ireland,we'd prefer to pay huge salaries to civil servants in quango's that don't do much than to act while the iron was hot.

    It will be unlikely to see an increase in the license fee this year, TG4 had their funding decrease already so it is unlikely that RTÉ will see an increase. If the 4 (I don't see why five should be put on the service) NI channels want to be part of DTT in ROI then their should be a trade with ROI services available in NI. Free of charge to each channel, depending on which side of the boarder they are on.

    Okay I know I did mention that BOXER is a Swedish quango and the swedes where not happy to see ASO when they had to pay for Boxer who increasing their sales phenomonially only because of ASO. Oh and the Swedes started testing back in 1997 when the Iron was hot.


  • #226
    The Cush
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 16,314 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    From today's Irish Times
    OneVision wants DTT licence
    Fri, May 01, 2009

    THE ONEVISION consortium of Eircom, TV3 and Setanta Sports has decided to enter talks with the Broadcasting Commission of Ireland (BCI) with a view to landing the commercial digital terrestrial television (DTT) licence that was recently handed back by the Denis O’Brien-led Boxer group.

    It is understood that OneVision, which is chaired by Fintan Drury and includes specialist DTT provider Arqiva, will make public its intention to hold talks with the BCI in the coming days.

    OneVision was second to Boxer in the beauty parade last year for the DTT licence.

    There is still a long road to travel but this will no doubt come as a relief to the BCI, which faced the prospect of having to run the competition again.

    RTÉ has already been awarded the free-to-air DTT multiplex, which will carry terrestrial channels via a set-top box.

    The BCI wants to license a commercial operator, who will be free to offer households a package of digital TV stations for a fee. Both need to be on air by 2015.

    O’Brien told me last week that Boxer’s decision was a combination of “timing and costs” against a backdrop of recession.

    OneVision had proposed a “basic” offering of 23 channels, costing €9.99 a month. It also wanted to offer premium sports and movie content and indicated that it would invest €40 million in the project.

    Given the economic backdrop, we can only presume that OneVision will seek to renegotiate some aspects of its proposal with the BCI. Expect the joint RTÉ/Liberty Global consortium that finished third to OneVision, to keep a watching brief.

    This article appears in the print edition of the Irish Times
    © 2009 The Irish Times


  • #227
    Koloman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,630 ✭✭✭Koloman


    The Cush wrote: »
    From today's Irish Times

    It's like the terminator, you think this whole process is dead but then it comes back for more! When will it end?


  • #228
    tretle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 59 ✭✭tretle


    LOL, YES! I just won a 50euro bet with my brother in law who said that Onevision would turn them down...
    I'm happy to hear this, I think that Onevision honestly had the best application out of all three.
    Hopefully they don't change their mind on broadcasting 6 free channels.


  • #229
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,461 ✭✭✭✭watty


    The Negotiations are not over yet, tretle. You may have to give 100 Eur to your brother.


  • #230
    channelsurfer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 742 ✭✭✭channelsurfer


    Its a bit of good news that One Vision have re-entered as I though that their package with 6 extra free channels at least had the best chance of competing with sky/upc. But as others have said the economic climate has changed a lot. I wonder will One VIsion look for a reduction in the fees payable etc.
    A long way to go before they are any where near signing a contract with the BCI...ps a note on their submission the 9.99 pack was only guaranteed until january 2011. It increases then.


  • #231
    Elmo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    tretle wrote: »
    LOL, YES! I just won a 50euro bet with my brother in law who said that Onevision would turn them down...
    I'm happy to hear this, I think that Onevision honestly had the best application out of all three.
    Hopefully they don't change their mind on broadcasting 6 free channels.

    6 FTA channels

    RTÉ ONE
    RTÉ TWO
    TV3
    TG4
    OTV (if it happens)
    IFB Channel (if it happens)

    Boxer didn't know Lucy Gaffney didn't know that they had decided on a Film Channel hence it didn't go into their docmentation. Since RTÉ will be running the PSB Mux they didn't put it in their documentation.

    3e
    3Xpose (if it happens)
    3Today (if it happens)

    Are all part of the 9.99 package.

    I hope your Brother in Law bets you that One Vision won't be seen.


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  • #232
    Elmo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    channelsurfer wrote: »
    ps a note on their submission the 9.99 pack was only guaranteed until january 2011. It increases then.

    So when it is fully rolled out they may increase their prices ? that is just stupid. First time early adopters will be given a good rate and what about the rest of the country.


  • #233
    deffin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 73 ✭✭deffin


    Good news on the DTT front according to today's Irish Times. Onevision have provisionally decided to accept the DTT licenseOneVision wants DTT licence THE ONEVISION consortium of Eircom, TV3 and Setanta Sports has decided to enter talks with the Broadcasting Commission of Ireland (BCI) with a view to landing the commercial digital terrestrial television (DTT) licence that was recently handed back by the Denis O’Brien-led Boxer group.It is understood that OneVision, which is chaired by Fintan Drury and includes specialist DTT provider Arqiva, will make public its intention to hold talks with the BCI in the coming days.OneVision was second to Boxer in the beauty parade last year for the DTT licence.There is still a long road to travel but this will no doubt come as a relief to the BCI, which faced the prospect of having to run the competition again.RTÉ has already been awarded the free-to-air DTT multiplex, which will carry terrestrial channels via a set-top box.The BCI wants to license a commercial operator, who will be free to offer households a package of digital TV stations for a fee. Both need to be on air by 2015.O’Brien told me last week that Boxer’s decision was a combination of “timing and costs” against a backdrop of recession.OneVision had proposed a “basic” offering of 23 channels, costing €9.99 a month. It also wanted to offer premium sports and movie content and indicated that it would invest €40 million in the project.Given the economic backdrop, we can only presume that OneVision will seek to renegotiate some aspects of its proposal with the BCI. Expect the joint RTÉ/Liberty Global consortium that finished third to OneVision, to keep a watching brief.


  • #234
    channelsurfer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 742 ✭✭✭channelsurfer


    Elmo wrote: »
    6 FTA channels

    RTÉ ONE
    RTÉ TWO
    TV3
    TG4
    OTV (if it happens)
    IFB Channel (if it happens)

    Boxer didn't know Lucy Gaffney didn't know that they had decided on a Film Channel hence it didn't go into their docmentation. Since RTÉ will be running the PSB Mux they didn't put it in their documentation.

    3e
    3Xpose (if it happens)
    3Today (if it happens)

    Are all part of the 9.99 package.

    I hope your Brother in Law bets you that One Vision won't be seen.

    the 6proposed fta channels are on top of rte etc according to their submission.
    http://www.bci.ie/DTT/one_vision/app1.pdf


    The EPG actually looks good.


  • #235
    gtg60
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,759 ✭✭✭gtg60


    Whether or which, this is still good news, will I be subscribing? Highly unlikely. Do I care if this means more transmitters will have DTT rolled out? No, I get it from 3 already.

    But any investment will see a more stable PSB Mux for those of us who want it.

    And good luck to Onevision, a tenner a month for the package they propose is extremely good value for money.


  • #236
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,461 ✭✭✭✭watty


    They are negotiating with BCI.

    This does not mean it is going ahead.

    Also is it good news when eircom has no money to spare and the service is doomed to lose €20M to €40 a year? We will get all whatever free channels there will be even if no-one takes up the pay DTT contract.

    This is nothing definate, doesn't need a separate thread until there is a signed contract.

    After all Boxer was awarded and accepted the Award.


    The good news will be if this fails now instead of after a year or two of wasting investors money. We need eircom to be reducing line rental, using their two almost unused Nationwide Wireless licences for decent fixed broadband.

    I can't honestly see where the €40M to start it and then €20M+ running cost a year will come from.


  • #237
    danjo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 589 ✭✭✭danjo


    I will not hold my breath waiting on this one.
    What other response would you expect from second bidder composed of a consortium? ;)

    IMHO I expect they will review, maybe try to re-negotiate and then turn it down.


  • #238
    mike65
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88,968 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    3e
    3Xpose (if it happens)
    3Today (if it happens)

    Are all part of the 9.99 package.

    So they will pay us a tenner a month to allow these channels into our homes? Cool :)


  • #239
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,461 ✭✭✭✭watty


    channelsurfer wrote: »
    Its a bit of good news that One Vision have re-entered as I though that their package with 6 extra free channels at least had the best chance of competing with sky/upc.

    I don't believe there are any extra free channels on Onevision.

    RTE1, RTE2, TV3, TG4, OTV are not extra channels. That's what we get anyway if no-one takes it up.

    Eventually an RTE24, RTE kids/Education/Extra and IrishFilm channels (free), no slower or faster if payTV launched


  • #240
    TheDriver
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,910 ✭✭✭✭TheDriver


    I am a bit lost reading one visions document to BCI as they are a bit vague about extra FTA channels but still part of the lowest pay scale so does that mean you must still subscribe to the lowest package?
    Would be nice to get 3e etc for free


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  • #241
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,461 ✭✭✭✭watty


    If Three can afford to do 3e FTA on Onevision, it will be FTA even if there isn't any PayTV. If they can't afford to put 3e FTA on DTT without Onevision, then they have not the money to do Onevision. eircom certainly hasn't a cent spare for this. So it's down to the owner of Three/Setanta, Hanson?

    Has he got €60M to €100M to throw away over the next 2 to 5 years?

    Would they ever get 100,000 or 50,000 Pay Customers? They would need about 300,000 for it to be a success. I think "break-even" is about 250,000 subscribers.


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