Do you still think of the War?

I am German (28 yo) so maybe some perspective 'from the other side of the fence':

- It's quite frequent for us to be met with wariness, distrust, sometimes even open hostility when abroad. It's not unique to you, OP. There are some times when I met the opposite but for equally unpleasant reasons (while in China: 'Chi-te-le? haoren, haoren' *thumbs up* /groan). Interestingly enough, this is *mainly* valid for anglo-american countries, I haven't been treated 'as a German' (instead of 'as a person') half as often in other countries.

- I think one of the main reasons is probably that WW2 is such 'excellent' movie material. It's kept alive and alive and alive again in contemporary movies and books. I was surprised to see WW2 material take up between 1/3 and 1/2 of bookshop windowspace when I was in the UK. Mind that I'm not against historic memory, that is very important, but this is different: this is fiction based on WW2, it's commercialising the biggest catastrophe in Europe in the 20th century.

- Knowledge of post-war German history is sadly lacking both in Germany and outside. Just to give you an idea: At school, we spend about 2-3 years' worth of history classes on the 3rd Reich and WW2. Post-war history is dealt with in maybe 1/2 year at best. That is deplorable, because I believe in learning from positive examples too, not just negatives. Germany has gone a long way since 1945. It undoubtedly has one of the most modern and stable democratic constitutions (leading to: a very stable party landscape, basically keeping all extremists out of positions of power; a strict political, but impartial formation in school; a constitutional self-protection against anti-democratic change, etc.). It has also been an integral and even the driving party in many arrangements that have made the world a safer place, e.g. the EU and its predecessors, and is an accepted diplomatic facilitator in many conflicts. It also is one of the major contributors to thirld world development programmes, etc. etc. etc. Germany, these days, is very much dedicated to a safe and stable world, and that includes the fight against Nazi ideas on all levels.

I can understand and I accept that the victims of that horrible, horrible time still see 'us' as the perpetrators, even if what -- 90% of the German population today have no recollection of those times. I feel sorry for them, like anybody else would who'd learn of their misery at the hands of Nazi Germany. I don't feel responsible for it, how could I -- but I feel moved like anybody else, and I'm determined to not let anything like that happen again.

I find it very saddening to see people my own age look down on me, simply because I'm German and supposedly carry this enormous historical weight on my back. It sucks to be stigmatised for something in the past that I have absolutely no influence over, but that we have learnt extensively from, possibly even to a greater extent than many other nations. Most of these people probably don't even have a clue about what exactly happened in those times, what lead up to these events, or what could have been done to prevent them, they just have a punching bag.

P.S. Sorry for the absence of humour in this post; I have spent my supply for this month yesterday when I told a joke to my friend.

Terodil wrote: »

I am German (28 yo) so maybe some perspective 'from the other side of the fence':

- It's quite frequent for us to be met with wariness, distrust, sometimes even open hostility when abroad. It's not unique to you, OP. There are some times when I met the opposite but for equally unpleasant reasons (while in China: 'Chi-te-le? haoren, haoren' *thumbs up* /groan). Interestingly enough, this is *mainly* valid for anglo-american countries, I haven't been treated 'as a German' (instead of 'as a person') half as often in other countries.

- I think one of the main reasons is probably that WW2 is such 'excellent' movie material. It's kept alive and alive and alive again in contemporary movies and books. I was surprised to see WW2 material take up between 1/3 and 1/2 of bookshop windowspace when I was in the UK. Mind that I'm not against historic memory, that is very important, but this is different: this is fiction based on WW2, it's commercialising the biggest catastrophe in Europe in the 20th century.

- Knowledge of post-war German history is sadly lacking both in Germany and outside. Just to give you an idea: At school, we spend about 2-3 years' worth of history classes on the 3rd Reich and WW2. Post-war history is dealt with in maybe 1/2 year at best. That is deplorable, because I believe in learning from positive examples too, not just negatives. Germany has gone a long way since 1945. It undoubtedly has one of the most modern and stable democratic constitutions (leading to: a very stable party landscape, basically keeping all extremists out of positions of power; a strict political, but impartial formation in school; a constitutional self-protection against anti-democratic change, etc.). It has also been an integral and even the driving party in many arrangements that have made the world a safer place, e.g. the EU and its predecessors, and is an accepted diplomatic facilitator in many conflicts. It also is one of the major contributors to thirld world development programmes, etc. etc. etc. Germany, these days, is very much dedicated to a safe and stable world, and that includes the fight against Nazi ideas on all levels.

I can understand and I accept that the victims of that horrible, horrible time still see 'us' as the perpetrators, even if what -- 90% of the German population today have no recollection of those times. I feel sorry for them, like anybody else would who'd learn of their misery at the hands of Nazi Germany. I don't feel responsible for it, how could I -- but I feel moved like anybody else, and I'm determined to not let anything like that happen again.

I find it very saddening to see people my own age look down on me, simply because I'm German and supposedly carry this enormous historical weight on my back. It sucks to be stigmatised for something in the past that I have absolutely no influence over, but that we have learnt extensively from, possibly even to a greater extent than many other nations. Most of these people probably don't even have a clue about what exactly happened in those times, what lead up to these events, or what could have been done to prevent them, they just have a punching bag.

P.S. Sorry for the absence of humour in this post; I have spent my supply for this month yesterday when I told a joke to my friend.

Studying the causes of fascism would be far better, and the evolution of anti-semitism over millenia

I think the English speaking world likes to overlook Germany's lead role in creating modern Europe, where that nation has done more to promote a European identity than some of the so-called heroes of the second world war. Don't worry about it OP - it suits certain countries to keep it going

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Have i slipped onto the Pashtun Boards site by mistake?

Slip into anything that's comfortable

IIMII wrote: »

- it suits certain countries to keep it going

ironing anyone?

BaZmO* wrote: »

Terodil might be able to answer this.
With regards to the inherited guilt a lot of the younger generation of Germans seemed to have to have been lumbered with, didn't holding the 2006 World Cup go a long way to lifting a lot of that guilt, in that the younger generation seen it as a way to break from history and show a new younger vibrant Germany breaking free from the baggage of the past?
Spoke to quite a few Germans around the time and that seemed to be the consensus.

I think your question has two parts.

1. Did it help the Germans with their national identity?
2. Did it bring us, 'as Germans', closer to the world?

Ad 1: it did -- a little bit, on a superficial level. I think it was the first time when people didn't think they had to apologise or feel guilty to wave the German flag (which, as most will know, follows the design of 1848, where it was a symbol of freedom and democracy, and which was outlawed under Hitler for obvious reasons). (I know it's been present at international sports games and the likes before, but it would have been very strange to see the German flag being on display in house windows or in shops before.)

However you may not be aware of a political campaign afterwards to collect all the German flags that had been flying and to burn them.

We have a very difficult relationship with our national identity. I don't think that's going to change anytime soon.

Ad 2: yes it did. Having 'the world as guests and friends' helped a lot, I think. A lot of people got to see modern Germany and found out that the times of the Nazis are long over. I remember being appalled at the fact that 30 or 40% of young Americans still believed that Hitler was in power in Germany. I think that changed

Mr.Lizard wrote: »

... yet still whenever I'm dealing with a German there is like a rush of automatic wariness that passes over me...

I like it. Are you aroused a bit too? :cool:

Terodil wrote: »

The second thing I wanted to add, in this context, is that it's NOT the work of a single man. Hitler himself would not have been able to turn a country of peace-loving artists into a pack of thugs or worse. He relied on a network of mostly inconspicuous citizens like you and me to carry out his plans and policies. All he needed to do was play on fears and anger to rally a substantial %age of the population to his cause, and a large enough %age on top of that who didn't care. The few Germans left who had doubts or even took action against him were then negligible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Third_Wave