DTT Commercial Multiplexes (was OneVision, Boxer etc...)

Red Sleeping Beauty · 26-04-2009 01:08AM

Hang on.
Number of channels : Over 60 - Over 100 - over 130

Isn't 130 and 100 over 60 anyway ?

Koloman · 26-04-2009 05:11AM

It seems that some people are upset over the decision of Boxer to pull out.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/boxers-knockout-blow-leaves-digital-tv-on-the-ropes-1720326.html

patrick whitty · 26-04-2009 10:26AM

scrap it like the voting system and go free sat like the bbc.
it would be much cheaper in the long run.

Elmo · 26-04-2009 10:52AM

Koloman wrote: »

It seems that some people are upset over the decision of Boxer to pull out.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/boxers-knockout-blow-leaves-digital-tv-on-the-ropes-1720326.html

Another Media Magnet was about to strengthen his grip on the Irish Media Sector. One Dennis O'Brien who own 100% of Communicorp, Meglamanic ???

snaps · 26-04-2009 11:50AM

patrick whitty wrote: »

scrap it like the voting system and go free sat like the bbc.
it would be much cheaper in the long run.

LOL! This country really is a shambles at times (Well government)

Elmo · 26-04-2009 12:33PM

snaps wrote: »

LOL! This country really is a shambles at times (Well government)

In fairness to both Ministers they have both been left with the problems that Noel Dempsey, Martin Cullen etc left them with.

At this stage Minister Ryan just need to tell RTÉ to press ahead with PSB Mux, which he has done and to tell the BCI to look towards licensing new Irish Channel, even if their are no takers for the licenses. Should One Vision not take up the DTT license to tell the BCI that RTÉ NL will role out the over all service. Giving the contract to Easy TV would just be pointless, why waste time with applications.

watty · 26-04-2009 04:07PM

Koloman wrote: »

It seems that some people are upset over the decision of Boxer to pull out.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/boxers-knockout-blow-leaves-digital-tv-on-the-ropes-1720326.html

Quite a lot I would disagree with in that article.

We missed the boat nearly 15 or 20 years ago not having our own sat platform and not launching DTT 10 years ago as free only.

DTT is never and was never going to compete with Sky/UPC. Too few channels. It can't even compete with FTA satellite (which the author seems to ignore as a much better source than giant masts for UK Analogue). Boxer was in reality just as Foreign as UPC or Sky. All DTT in Ireland can ever do and could ever do economically and competitively is do the Indigenous channels. In time there will be a few more and unlike UK, because we have fewer channels, no problem with space to simulcast the HD versions.

It's a consequence of being 1/20th the market size of a near neighbour with the same language. We can never be FTA on Satellite like them, and there is much more demand for their (free) channels here than for almost any other pair of countries. Due to the market sizes (and other factors) there is x10 the number of watchable free channels from UK as our current total channels (40 vs 4).

Elmo · 26-04-2009 04:14PM

watty wrote: »

It's a consequence of being 1/20th the market size of a near neighbour with the same language. We can never be FTA on Satellite like them, and there is much more demand for their (free) channels here than for almost any other pair of countries. Due to the market sizes (and other factors) there is x10 the number of watchable free channels from UK as our current total channels.

I still think a few new Irish Indigenous independent channels as Must Carries should be licensed by the BCI/BAI. I don't know if there are 60 watchable channel coming from England (I say England because I don't know of any NI, Welsh or Scottish channels outside the regional variations of ITV, BBC1 and BBC2). I think your being generous with 60 watchable channels.

Basically all this means is the death of Indigenous Irish Drama and Comedy. As for News and Current Affairs I wonder how much long we have with that type of programming. And Documentary I give it a year.

JanusGeminius · 26-04-2009 04:40PM

Elmo wrote: »

I still think a few new Irish Indigenous independent channels as Must Carries should be licensed by the BCI/BAI. I don't know if there are 60 watchable channel coming from England (I say England because I don't know of any NI, Welsh or Scottish channels outside the regional variations of ITV, BBC1 and BBC2). I think your being generous with 60 watchable channels.

Basically all this means is the death of Indigenous Irish Drama and Comedy. As for News and Current Affairs I wonder how much long we have with that type of programming. And Documentary I give it a year.

I hate to say it but Irish indigenous content died the day TV3 started and nicked loads of ad money from RTÉ in a stupid attempt to replicate RTÉ's programming in everyway. This country is far too small for more than one broadcaster, It would make far more sense to get rid of TV3 and ban the UK channels from carrying Irish adverts.

Elmo · 26-04-2009 04:53PM

JanusGeminius wrote: »

I hate to say it but Irish indigenous content died the day TV3 started and nicked loads of ad money from RTÉ in a stupid attempt to replicate RTÉ's programming in everyway. This country is far too small for more than one broadcaster, It would make far more sense to get rid of TV3 and ban the UK channels from carrying Irish adverts.

So get rid of TV3 because it is robbing RTÉs advertising revenue and ban all adverts from Irish TV.

We are actually capable of other broadcasters if TV3 had tried, which I keep saying, they could have 20% of the audience at this stage.

tretle · 26-04-2009 05:06PM

The reason there aren't any new Irish networks popping up is not because of tv3 its because of the BCI's strict guidelines. Thats why channel 6 and bubble hits never became successful. Because they were not allowed to broadcast with the other Irish channels on the analog system and because sky wouldnt put them in the same space as the other irish networks on the tv guide.
We wouldnt see a new channel pop up just because TV3 went away, we would just be left with TG4 and RTE1+2 and whatever channel RTE decides to broadcast next.
A new Irish network with no affialiation to the current networks is in the hands of the BCI, not TV3.

tretle · 26-04-2009 05:16PM

Elmo wrote: »

I still think a few new Irish Indigenous independent channels as Must Carries should be licensed by the BCI/BAI. I don't know if there are 60 watchable channel coming from England (I say England because I don't know of any NI, Welsh or Scottish channels outside the regional variations of ITV, BBC1 and BBC2). I think your being generous with 60 watchable channels.

Basically all this means is the death of Indigenous Irish Drama and Comedy. As for News and Current Affairs I wonder how much long we have with that type of programming. And Documentary I give it a year.

Death of Fair City, hurray, hurray tax payers money no longer spent on people who cant write or act to save their lives. A great day for all Irish citizens

Seriously though, I agree with you. 60 channels is not possible. I read that the max according to the group that OneVision wanted to install the mux's in Ireland with rtenl who also installed the mux's for the BBC in England. If we use mpeg4 would have 12 channels per mux.
So that would be 44 at max by 2012 if RTENL are able to broadcast the same with what they have installed for the free to air mux.

On the death to Irish produced shows because of english channels, I think thats doubtful as according to the statistics from RTE and Onevision the main channels being watched in ireland even through sky are the national ones(RTE1 & Network2).

Elmo · 26-04-2009 05:32PM

tretle wrote: »

The reason there aren't any new Irish networks popping up is not because of tv3 its because of the BCI's strict guidelines. Thats why channel 6 and bubble hits never became successful. Because they were not allowed to broadcast with the other Irish channels on the analog system and because sky wouldnt put them in the same space as the other irish networks on the tv guide.
We wouldnt see a new channel pop up just because TV3 went away, we would just be left with TG4 and RTE1+2 and whatever channel RTE decides to broadcast next.
A new Irish network with no affialiation to the current networks is in the hands of the BCI, not TV3.

BCI strict, Irish Regulators Strict

Funny.

Channel 6 failed because, they though the audience wanted 24 hours before they could afford it so their morning schedule eat into their budget, they ended up provided even cheaper US programming than they had started out with. In other words they Ran before the could walk. But the fact they they weren't on Sky to begin with did effect them and the lack of DTT which they wanted to be part of on a FTA basis.

Bubble Hits where never licensed by the BCI. They ignored any Irish audience that they may have had, while trying to compete with Viacom etc in the UK. They refused advertising initally, and then went on to insult big brands like Percil and Aerial by saying that they wouldn't show any "Washing up Liquid ads" did they not know that Lever own other products such as the more youth brands like Lynxs. Bubble never knew how many Irish viewers they had.

I agree 60 is not possible, to be honest 60 really isn't possible in bigger countries as it has cause quality TV to be reduced in numbers look at ITV and their obsession with Soap and Reality TV. (ITV are losing money because they won't take risks on new programming).

Death of Fair City, hurray, hurray tax payers money no longer spent on people who cant write or act to save their lives. A great day for all Irish citizens

While I know you are joke (in away), and while I would not worry if Fair City ended tomorrow I am talking about all of the other Drama that RTÉ has produced unfortunately that drama is the first thing RTÉ will cut down on not Fair City. Fair City gets viewers and is cheap to make.

cowengate · 26-04-2009 05:33PM

in 2012 i hope to be watching 3D tv, not four halfassed channels

Elmo · 26-04-2009 05:35PM

cowengate wrote: »

in 2012 i hope to be watching 3D tv, not four halfassed channels

Fair City in HD 3D

can't wait.

I assume your talking about Virgin 1, Sky 1, E! and Challenge

cowengate · 26-04-2009 05:43PM

the only good thing about dtt is that you can delete channels.what about nat geo in 3D

Elmo · 26-04-2009 05:47PM

cowengate wrote: »

the only good thing about dtt is that you can delete channels.what about nat geo in 3D

Nat Geo in 3D = Most expensive documentaries ever made.

You know with Analogue you don't have tune in any channel :rolleyes:

cowengate · 26-04-2009 05:49PM

whats analogue?

Elmo · 26-04-2009 05:55PM

cowengate wrote: »

whats analogue?

Analog (if in the US????)

It is the current service provided by UPC (Chorus:NTL) and RTÉ NL. UPC (Chorus:NTL) Basic is generally their Analogue service, you place the cable in the back of your TV and tune in each of the channels available (About 17).

RTÉ NL provide 4 channels on a free to air basis over their analogue terrestrial signals, you need a set of "rabbit ears"/ Outdoor Aerial connected to your TV to tune these 4 (how should I put it "half-assed channels") into your TV Set. (You do not need a subscription to avail of these 4 channels, and you might even pick up the 4 UK Terrestrial channels from NI or Wales).

DTT is the Digital version of Analogue Terrestrial signals as currently used by RTÉ NL. Analogue is set to be turned off in 2012. or 2015 or sometime ?????

Why am I explaining this?

cowengate · 26-04-2009 05:59PM

there is not as much fun tuning in channels as deleting them, deleting TG4 "heaven".

Elmo · 26-04-2009 06:02PM

cowengate wrote: »

there is not as much fun tuning in channels as deleting them, deleting TG4 "heaven".

Yeah you have obviously watched allot of TG4 to know it is ****.

watty · 26-04-2009 06:05PM

tretle wrote: »

The reason there aren't any new Irish networks popping up is not because of tv3 its because of the BCI's strict guidelines. Thats why channel 6 and bubble hits never became successful. Because they were not allowed to broadcast with the other Irish channels on the analog system and because sky wouldnt put them in the same space as the other irish networks on the tv guide.
We wouldnt see a new channel pop up just because TV3 went away, we would just be left with TG4 and RTE1+2 and whatever channel RTE decides to broadcast next.
A new Irish network with no affialiation to the current networks is in the hands of the BCI, not TV3.

No. Ch6 & Bubble Hits could not broadcast on Analogue because it would be too expensive and there is no spectrum. C6 needed BCI approval to be on Cable, thus the issue is NOT BCI

C6 was budget US repeats. Bubble hits, shallow pop video. "me too" Z class cable/Satellite .

On Sky EPG you get what you pay for and it in the end the content not EPG number is what coounts.

BigMoose · 27-04-2009 10:59AM

watty wrote:

and there is no spectrum

I'm curious how the UK managed (just about) 5 analog channels just on UHF but there was no room for a 5th in Ireland that uses VHF and UHF?

JanusGeminius · 27-04-2009 11:45AM

Elmo wrote: »

So get rid of TV3 because it is robbing RTÉs advertising revenue and ban all adverts from Irish TV.

We are actually capable of other broadcasters if TV3 had tried, which I keep saying, they could have 20% of the audience at this stage.

UK channels from carrying Irish adverts.

I just can't see how more than one broadcaster of quality is possible in Ireland. There just isn't enough revenue in this countries system to have more than one broadcaster.

If TV3 had gained twenty percent of the audience it would have only succeeded in annihilating the little drama RTÉ produce. What would TV3 have used the gained revenue to do? Buy american programmes? Make third-rate copies of dated reality TV shows?

Elmo · 27-04-2009 11:58AM

JanusGeminius wrote: »

UK channels from carrying Irish adverts.

I just can't see how more than one broadcaster of quality is possible in Ireland. There just isn't enough revenue in this countries system to have more than one broadcaster.

If TV3 had gained twenty percent of the audience it would have only succeeded in annihilating the little drama RTÉ produce. What would TV3 have used the gained revenue to do? Buy american programmes? Make third-rate copies of dated reality TV shows?

If TV3 where to increase their advertising revenue they would possible push out the UK channels from advertising in Ireland e.g. Viacom would spend more money trying to get advertising for each of their channels then they would earn hence they currently go with their top 3 channels MTV, Comedy Central and Nickelodeon. That is unlike to change, if Virgin Channels start selling advertising we will be up **** creak. Even though I hate saying this I would rather see 3e with 3% share than Living with a 1.5% share.

watty · 27-04-2009 02:24PM

BigMoose wrote: »

I'm curious how the UK managed (just about) 5 analog channels just on UHF but there was no room for a 5th in Ireland that uses VHF and UHF?

They didn't really. It was a mess and poor coverage, hence Five on Analogue Satellite. The UK and Irish channel allocations designed in co-ordination and for a network of 4 channels. Divis certainly had the 4th channel gear many years before C4 started.

The RTENL UHF plan assumed RTE1 & 2 would close on VHF. There are many places a 5th channel wouldn't be possible.

Besides C6 nor BubbleHits would have had the money to pay for Terrestrial transmission.

Mayo Exile · 27-04-2009 03:14PM

Article on current DTT difficulties from yesterdays Sunday Business Post:

Downturn forces RTE to review digital plan

26 April 2009
By Catherine O’Mahony
RTE has asked the government to review its strategy on digital terrestrial television (DTT), as the project encounters serious difficulties.

Boxer DTT, which had been awarded a contract in principle to provide DTT, confirmed last week that it was pulling out of the project. The firm cited changes in the economy and difficulties finalising negotiations with RTE for use of the DTT network that RTE is building.

Boxer DTT is made up of Denis O’Brien’s Communicorp media company and Swedish DTT specialist Boxer. It w as due to manage three commercial DTT multiplexes, providing low-cost digital pay TV offerings to people who had not signed up to a cable or satellite package.

Following Boxer DTT’s withdrawal, the underbidders, a group including Eircom, TV3 and Setanta, now have two weeks to decide if they wish to take up the negotiations. If they do not, the remaining contender is a group led by RTE and cable provider UPC.

Six weeks ago, RTE informed the Broadcasting Commission of Ireland (BCI) and the government that the deal with Boxer DTT was likely to collapse, and urged a review of the DTT plan in light of the economic downturn. Sources said the chief problem with the Boxer DTT deal concerned a €20 million security that RTE was seeking to back the €111 million overall cost of the DTT network.

Informed sources said that RTE director general Cathal Goan wrote to the Department of Communications last month asking for the DTT issue to be re-examined as a matter of urgency. It is now questionable whether Ireland will be able to switch off the analogue signal in 2012 as planned, without a DTT service available to virtually all households.

DTT needs to be phased in over several years, and the original plan was to begin the service this September. RTE is understood to be technically capable of launching a DTT service covering around 80 per cent of households by the end of this year, but there is unlikely to be a market for digital service that offers only RTE 1, RTE 2,TV3 and TG4.

Link: http://www.thepost.ie/post/pages/p/story.aspx-qqqt=IRELAND-qqqm=news-qqqid=41348-qqqx=1.asp

I put the last sentence in bold. RTE's PSB mux should still be going ahead, yes?

Elmo · 27-04-2009 03:23PM

Mayo Exile wrote: »

Article on current DTT difficulties from yesterdays Sunday Business Post:

Link: http://www.thepost.ie/post/pages/p/story.aspx-qqqt=IRELAND-qqqm=news-qqqid=41348-qqqx=1.asp

I put the last sentence in bold. RTE's PSB mux should still be going ahead, yes?

Just incase you didn't realise just because a columnist in the Sunday Business Post does make it right.

Lets rephrase it for you

RTE is understood to be technically capable of launching a DTT service covering around 80 per cent of households by the end of this year, but there is unlikely to be a market for digital service that offers only RTE 1, RTE 2,TV3 and TG4, however if The Government are forced to turn off Ireland's analogue service by the EU 25% of viewers who currently have analogue terrestrial television would be force into taking up the new technology.

As I have said time and time again DSO/ASO has to happen by 2012 (well now 2015) regardless of the channels available. Analogue with its 4 services already has a market.

Mayo Exile · 27-04-2009 03:42PM

Elmo, I am well aware of the DSO/ASO timetables. But to pull a line from "The Right Stuff": "No bucks, no Buck Rogers". For RoI, 2015 is the more realistic date for ASO as we may be through our slash & burn corrective economics by then. In 2012 we will be still in the middle of them.

Elmo · 27-04-2009 04:00PM

Mayo Exile wrote: »

Elmo, I am well aware of the DSO/ASO timetables. But to pull a line from "The Right Stuff": "No bucks, no Buck Rogers". For RoI, 2015 is the more realistic date for ASO as we may be through our slash & burn corrective economics by then. In 2012 we will be still in the middle of them.

Boxer/OneVision/EasyTV would all have the same issues even with 30more channels with 4 free ones and 4 new possible free one.

The only reason Boxer suceeded in Sweden was due to DSO/ASO.

DTT Commercial Multiplexes (was OneVision, Boxer etc...)

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