Increasing strength as opposed to big muscle gain

slave_screams · 23-04-2009 12:47PM #1

A question for all you fitness and nutrition gurus out there - To give you a brief synopsis of my training regime and diet:

Im 32 years old, 6 ft 2" and weigh just shy of 14 stone - I play gaelic football twice a week and go to the gym 2-3 times per week. A number of months ago I began looking at my diet and fitness regime and made a number of changes to try improve my overall fitness and strength.

My diet usually consists of the following:
Breakfast - Bowl of organic oats (flahavans) + 4 slices of wholewheat brown bread + cup of tea
Lunch - Roll with ham/cheese (very exciting I know) - apple + banana + bag of low fat crisps + water
Or if im at home, bowl of homemade vegetable soup + 2 slices of wholegrain bread/2 super egg omelette with ham/cheese + 2 slices of wholegrain bread - sugar free beans on toast
Dinner - Lean meat (beef stirfry/lean mince) /skinless chicken breast/donegal catch salmon fillets + brown rice/wholegrain pasta + green/red/yellow pepper + onion + water
Evening - I dont tend to eat late at night, maybe some popcorn or a ham + chessie toastie on occasion

Weekends can be a different story - I like a drink, guinness being my tipple of choice so usually after a game on Saturday I will go out and drink 10-12 pints of stout - Now if we have no game I could do this Saturday and Sunday, but this is rare as we have matches most weekends - Sunday is usually a grill (sausages+rashers+white pudding etc) with a steak n spuds dinner. I have recently stopped eating grills and generally have an ommelete instead nowadays. I like red wine and usually have a bottle on a Thursday night with the missus.

I think my diet is pretty good, I use non fat milk, low fat cheese and butter, eat no fast food at all except maybe the odd pizza once a month, drink about 6 pints of water per day - I dont eat many sweets or bars although i do have a weakness for cadbury's choccie fingers, there only a euro a pack!

Im in decent enough shape, when I go to the gym it usually consists of the following:
5k run on threadmill - (approx 25mins) - stretches - sit ups + knuckle push ups, usually about 100 crunches (2 secs up 2 secs down) and about 50 press-ups, (again, 2secs up 2 secs down) - done in 5 cycles, ie 20 sit ups, 10 pressups 60secs recovery in between - Quick swim + sauna/steam room - Other other gym day I lift free weights 4 sets of 10 - 17.5kg presses plus 15kg curls + 4 sets of 12 on the chest machine thingie at 40kg weight as well as doing 5k run

The main problem I find is weight gain, whereas I am pretty much at the same weight, I'm a lot leaner that I used to be - I have noticed in particular I have lost a lot of width on my thighs and legs as well as my shoulders and arms - I am more toned, at the expense of mass. I tried creatine powders before (pro form mass builder) but i found it just added weight to my gut than anywhere else so I stopped! I tried it for about 3 months and added about half a stone but in the wrong places, and this was with training as well! I used to take one in the morning (with non fat milk) and then one after training/gym in the evening. I have being going to the gym for about a year and a half now and I know my strength hasnt increased at all really in that time.

Im not trying to build loads of muscle, just want to add some extra weight for strength purposes, particularly on my legs and shoulders. Should I be eating more, smaller meals? Is there other protein/createin powders that I would be more suited to? I am doing too much running to gain weight? Should I be doing different exercises in the gym?

Any and all advise greatly appreciated!

kevpants · 23-04-2009 01:02PM

Legs and shoulders?

Squats and Military press.

Learn to squat properly, below parralel. If you need help with that just ask. It's not difficult. Pick a weight and a rep range that are challenging but manageable, then get better at it. Try and break your personal record for the reps you can do and when you get to a certain number of reps (it's up to you) just add some weight and try again.

No need to re-invent the wheel if you're happy enough bar looking for leg and shoulder strength.

Patto · 23-04-2009 01:21PM

First off, you are pretty much at an ideal weight for your height for Gaa.

What can you bench, Deadlift, squat and chin? For Gaa purposes the most strength you need is Deadlift or squat 2xbw, Bench 1.5xbw and 12 chins. It might take a year or two but at 14 stone and 6'2" its very possible to achieve these numbers.

Your diet looks ok. How much protein a day do you eat? Ideally you need about 200g a day at 14 stone. Though the 12-14 pints of stout will probably catch up on you.

As for creatine, if you respond to it you will put on weight, the weight is water in your muscles, but you will also get stronger. Its not possible to put on belly weight with creatine. Maybe try it again and see if you respond. You might go up to 14 1/2 stone with a moderate return in terms of strength gains. The benifits of using creatine also include an accumulation of long term training adaptations (becuase you will be using bigger loads).

slave_screams · 23-04-2009 01:49PM

Kevpants, I pretty much want to increase my overall body weight by about half a stone without it ending up being extra weight - My main concern was if i started taking creatine (as patto suggested) would it just turn into bulk, which doesnt lend itself to well to GAA - I play midfield so have to do a lot of running - Also Patto, Ive never really done those types of exercises, mainly because I wasnt sure what weight/reps I should be lifting - I have pretty much stuck to the exercises outlined above in my initial post, so I should start doing the ones you recommended? - I have even gone to 2 personal trainers in my gym, both of whom contradicted each other in so far as what exercises I should be doing, its difficult to get clear concise info! As regards my protein intake, I get it from lean meat/skinless chicken breasts/fish/eggs/milk etc but maybe Im not taking enough, which is where the protein powder question comes up again? Is there a particular one I should use?

blackgold>> · 23-04-2009 01:53PM

Patto wrote:

As for creatine, if you respond to it you will put on weight, the weight is water in your muscles, but you will also get stronger. Its not possible to put on belly weight with creatine. Maybe try it again and see if you respond. You might go up to 14 1/2 stone with a moderate return in terms of strength gains. The benifits of using creatine also include an accumulation of long term training adaptations (becuase you will be using bigger loads).

How do you mean respond to it?

Hanley · 23-04-2009 02:00PM

blackgold>> wrote: »

How do you mean respond to it?

Some people see no additional improvements from creatine use. That is, they don't respond to it.

kevpants · 23-04-2009 02:14PM

slave_screams wrote: »

Kevpants, I pretty much want to increase my overall body weight by about half a stone without it ending up being extra weight - My main concern was if i started taking creatine (as patto suggested) would it just turn into bulk, which doesnt lend itself to well to GAA - I play midfield so have to do a lot of running - Also Patto, Ive never really done those types of exercises, mainly because I wasnt sure what weight/reps I should be lifting - I have pretty much stuck to the exercises outlined above in my initial post, so I should start doing the ones you recommended? - I have even gone to 2 personal trainers in my gym, both of whom contradicted each other in so far as what exercises I should be doing, its difficult to get clear concise info! As regards my protein intake, I get it from lean meat/skinless chicken breasts/fish/eggs/milk etc but maybe Im not taking enough, which is where the protein powder question comes up again? Is there a particular one I should use?

Ok so you wanna get strong but stay quick basically?

I presume you want to get strong in the sense of having increased acceleration and stability i.e. holding off an opponent etc.

The act of holding off someone is a compound movement i.e. lots of muscles are involved from your head to your toes, you don't hold someone off with your tricep for eg.

For this reason the advice on this thread so far is pretty bang on. Do the compound movements like squat, deadlift, bench press and military press. Multiple muscles worked at the one time in the one movement.

These will not make you slow or add too much mass to stay mobile, that's a crock of sh1t peddled by coaches who know nothing and who consider laps conditioning training. Squats and deadlifts are essential in building acceleration, you're building power in your legs and core.

I can't advise on the creatine because I've never used it.

The only supplement I use every now and again is unflavoured whey that I get in a 5kg tub from bulkpowders.co.uk. I throw it into a pint of Milk if I think I'm down on my protein intake on a given day. It's cheap and tastes of nothing so it suits me.

As far as rep ranges go. You can get stronger by doing 5 sets of 5 or 3 sets of 10 with an appropriate weight it's not the be all and end all. Just try and get an extra rep if you can and then add weight after you reach a certain amount of reps etc. Just keep progressing. I guarantee if your squat goes up by 10kg over the course of a few weeks or months you are a stronger quicker man on the field.

Patto · 23-04-2009 05:38PM

slave_screams wrote: »

I play midfield so have to do a lot of running - Also Patto, Ive never really done those types of exercises, mainly because I wasnt sure what weight/reps I should be lifting - I have pretty much stuck to the exercises outlined above in my initial post, so I should start doing the ones you recommended? - I have even gone to 2 personal trainers in my gym, both of whom contradicted each other in so far as what exercises I should be doing, its difficult to get clear concise info!

There in lies the crux of the issue: Who are you asking? Personal Trainers in gyms and weight lifting ethusiasts on a fitness forum. While they give lots of great advise, they don't play your sport and possibly haven't worked with or trained too many field sports athletes. The advise they give has to be filtered given the perspective they are coming from and even if they are a great athelete their pool of knowledge may not extend beyond the experience of their own training (I'd say the same of myself).

The experts in this field are strength and conditioning coaches. Will Heffernan, not a popular man around here but that is another story, wrote a good blog post on the subject of S&C and GAA http://informedperformance.wordpress.com/2009/01/24/so-what-do-you-do-once-youve-tested-them/

slave_screams · 23-04-2009 06:33PM

I take your point Patto, it seems really obvious to me now once you had mentioned it, that I am probably coming from a different perspective than a body builder, or someone who is looking to gain lots of mass and muscle. Im trying to find that middle ground between power and strength and speed and mobility. I read that link, and I found it informative and interesting. Any particular reason why Mr. Heffernan hasnt endeared himself to the people on this forum or is that opening a big can of worms?

kevpants · 23-04-2009 06:58PM

slave_screams wrote: »

I take your point Patto, it seems really obvious to me now once you had mentioned it, that I am probably coming from a different perspective than a body builder, or someone who is looking to gain lots of mass and muscle. Im trying to find that middle ground between power and strength and speed and mobility. I read that link, and I found it informative and interesting. Any particular reason why Mr. Heffernan hasnt endeared himself to the people on this forum or is that opening a big can of worms?

He's Australian, and it just gets worse from there...

Patto speaks the truth, you need to look at it from the perspective of your sport but this basics of getting stronger apply. I think Will's point is you can't deadlift your way to being a better player but if you're weak you're not going to perform either. That and shrimps and barbies and stuff.

slave_screams · 23-04-2009 07:42PM

'Tis funny, I'm tempted to go to him for an evaluation, it costs €55, which is the same for any of the fitness guys in my gym - I just read a few of his blogs and he strikes me as...the opiniated type lets say. Are there any other S & C coaches out there that are well thought of? I live in the Dublin 15 area if thats any use

Hanley · 23-04-2009 07:47PM

kevpants wrote: »

He's Australian, and it just gets worse from there...

Patto speaks the truth, you need to look at it from the perspective of your sport but this basics of getting stronger apply. I think Will's point is you can't deadlift your way to being a better player but if you're weak you're not going to perform either. That and shrimps and barbies and stuff.

cardio,shoot me · 23-04-2009 07:59PM

damn i love that picture

slicus ricus · 23-04-2009 10:56PM

Hanley wrote: »

Some people see no additional improvements from creatine use. That is, they don't respond to it.

I often wondered why this was? Is it to do with people not having a good enough diet i.e. supplementing nothing; or is there more to it than that?

I've never actually heard anyone I know who has taken it say they didn't see/feel any improvement. I found it effective as well, seemed to add a few extra percent, which can make a difference.

Degsy · 23-04-2009 11:23PM

slicus ricus wrote: »

I often wondered why this was? Is it to do with people not having a good enough diet i.e. supplementing nothing; or is there more to it than that?

I've never actually heard anyone I know who has taken it say they didn't see/feel any improvement. I found it effective as well, seemed to add a few extra percent, which can make a difference.

I took it on and off for ages,i may have gained some small,possibly placebo effect initially but thereafter nada.

Hanley · 23-04-2009 11:34PM

slicus ricus wrote: »

I often wondered why this was? Is it to do with people not having a good enough diet i.e. supplementing nothing; or is there more to it than that?

I've never actually heard anyone I know who has taken it say they didn't see/feel any improvement. I found it effective as well, seemed to add a few extra percent, which can make a difference.

I'm not going to act like I know, because I don't. I did have it explained to me before.... Something to do with creatine levels already being at saturation point prior to supplementing?? If that is the case, then I wonder consider it unlucky because you're basically getting the same effect as someone taking creatine all year round!!

Patto · 24-04-2009 12:02AM

slave_screams wrote: »

Are there any other S & C coaches out there that are well thought of?

I'm not sure. The IRFU employ a number of them as do the olympic council I'm sure. We are a bit deprived in this country of, for want of a better word, "high performance gyms", I'm thinking Eric Cressey type setups here.

I'd love to know how many intercounty teams employ genuine S&C coaches.

IM0 · 24-04-2009 10:16PM

1. lift a 'bit' less weight more often so (say 10-15 reps) and for more sets (3-5 as opposed to 1-3) to increase strength of what you have (neuromuscular) rather than bulk up (hypertrophy).

If its bulking up you want (which I dont think it is) you lift much heavier weight for less reps (say 4-8 reps) for less sets (1-3) to increase muscle mass.

And making sure you get enough rest/recovery between sessions is critical to improvements, that goes for the GAA too, if you are knackered after match the next day, not MUCH use going to the gym. You want to be leaving each session (or 2nd one) with an improvement from the last, usually in the form of an extra rep, which should be quite hard to finish each session. And then increasing the amount of sets you do, and go back to the start of the rep range again so if at one point in time you are at 3 sets of 10-15 reps, the first session you do 10 and build to 15 reps, and when you get there, you do 4 sets, and go back to 10 reps and work your way back up to 15 reps again and then increase to ect and do the same, then when finished at five, go back to 3 sets and then increase weight and start the process over again

making sure that you only increase on thing at a time: sets reps or weight.

Patto · 26-04-2009 09:32PM

Patto wrote: »

I'm not sure. The IRFU employ a number of them as do the olympic council I'm sure. We are a bit deprived in this country of, for want of a better word, "high performance gyms", I'm thinking Eric Cressey type setups here.

I'd love to know how many intercounty teams employ genuine S&C coaches.

Just to qualify tis statement. I think I left it a bit ambiguous.

To The OP, if you want to achieve your goals then going to someone like Will and putting in the effort in the gym and on the pitch is what you need to do. Will is one of the best there is at what he does. Will doesn't need my representation anywhere, least of all here.

As regards lack or abundance of S&C coaches, I don't know but I am curious. From my frame of reference which is an exposure to various levels of gaelic games, It would appear that there is still plenty of scope for S&C improvements all the way to inter county level. If you consider that it costs upward of 100 grand for a county board (Cork) to run its county teams for a year that doesn't allow a huge budget for S&C. How many county boards can afford a decent S&C service? Now I'm going off the point.

My point about the EC type performance gyms was if you are looking to a commercial gym for a decent S&C service you are not going to find it too easy.

Vegeta · 27-04-2009 11:04AM

me@ucd wrote: »

1. lift a 'bit' less weight more often so (say 10-15 reps) and for more sets (3-5 as opposed to 1-3) to increase strength of what you have (neuromuscular) rather than bulk up (hypertrophy).

If its bulking up you want (which I dont think it is) you lift much heavier weight for less reps (say 4-8 reps) for less sets (1-3) to increase muscle mass.

And making sure you get enough rest/recovery between sessions is critical to improvements, that goes for the GAA too, if you are knackered after match the next day, not MUCH use going to the gym. You want to be leaving each session (or 2nd one) with an improvement from the last, usually in the form of an extra rep, which should be quite hard to finish each session. And then increasing the amount of sets you do, and go back to the start of the rep range again so if at one point in time you are at 3 sets of 10-15 reps, the first session you do 10 and build to 15 reps, and when you get there, you do 4 sets, and go back to 10 reps and work your way back up to 15 reps again and then increase to ect and do the same, then when finished at five, go back to 3 sets and then increase weight and start the process over again

making sure that you only increase on thing at a time: sets reps or weight.

I think you have that a bit backwards there

Generally strength programs are low reps 5, and medium number of sets 5.

Body builders usually use 10-12 reps by 3 sets

Increasing strength as opposed to big muscle gain

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