DTT Commercial Multiplexes (was OneVision, Boxer etc...)

The Cush · 21-04-2009 05:05PM

ynotdu wrote: »

well I read it as a link from the NASA site that complete switchoff was to happen two months ago in the usa,and we all know nasa never make mistakes,right?erm except for the two multimillion mars landers that burnt up during entry through the athmosphere.they were built as a joint venture between us&europe,problem was us were using inch,s and europe were using centimetres(honest):D

Check out DTV transition in the United States on Wikipedia.

bk · 21-04-2009 05:18PM

Elmo wrote: »

Channel 6 suffered due to the lack of investment in orginal Irish programming and their remit wasn't wide enough, it is suitable as a TV3 spin off but nothing more. TV3 have ruined the channel by not having 3e programming, some Irish content is need. But their are plenty of mistakes about Channel 6 that I can point out to you. Oh and they aren't on Terrestial TV do you think TV3 would have survived if it was only available on cable/sat when it started out?

But 3e represent everything you are talking about. Ok, they weren't on Terrestrial, but that isn't important as it is only 30% of the market anyway. They are on UPC and Sky and they got pretty bad channel positions on these platforms, just like any other new Irish channels would get.

Channel 6 did actually try making some Irish content and it nearly broke them, TV3 has dumped all the Irish programming when they bought it. Look at what is on prime time tonight, CSI from season 4 (CSI is up to Season 9), clearly even TV3 is having problems buying in US content. I'd much prefer any of the UK cable channels, then what 3e offers.

And you are also incorrect, most of the UK channels do buy the Irish rights, C4, Viacom, etc. all buy the Irish rights, they have to as they are on Sky and UPC. Normally they don't have to pay for the Irish rights, they just make it a condition of buying the UK rights and get it for free as the Irish market is so small in comparison.

But again, I'll just say, if any Irish company wants to try broadcasting on DTT and are willing to pay for the cost of transmission, then fair play, let them at it, but we should also leave the UK channels do the same if they want and in fact we would be required to do so under EU competition law.

Koloman · 21-04-2009 07:08PM

bk wrote: »

Perhaps RTE's ideas of getting BBC and the other UK channels for free and they reciprocating with the Irish channels up north should be re-examined. It would be good politically for reconciliation between North and South.

It should be looked at but if the people of NI were able to watch the RTE news on a regular basis they would probably run a mile and not have anything to do with us!

Elmo · 21-04-2009 07:58PM

bk wrote: »

But 3e represent everything you are talking about. Ok, they weren't on Terrestrial, but that isn't important as it is only 30% of the market anyway. They are on UPC and Sky and they got pretty bad channel positions on these platforms, just like any other new Irish channels would get.

Channel 6 did actually try making some Irish content and it nearly broke them, TV3 has dumped all the Irish programming when they bought it. Look at what is on prime time tonight, CSI from season 4 (CSI is up to Season 9), clearly even TV3 is having problems buying in US content. I'd much prefer any of the UK cable channels, then what 3e offers.

Channel 6 did a huge amount incorrectly including the pre-recorded live shows. And indeed buy into many shows rather than quality shows, they had a few such as House, Heroes and Always Sunny in Philidelphia. But all of this amounted to what TV3 had done back in 1998, cheap Irish programming mixed with even cheaper Imports. Only difference TV3 had Terrestrail and must carry status on cable networks. Channel 6 went in big thinking they could afford a 20 hour channel forgetting that you need to at least start with some amount of quality. CSI is repeat on Living they also happen to have more up to date rights, as do RTÉ who are ahead of Living. (Living is a Virgin Media Company.)

And you are also incorrect, most of the UK channels do buy the Irish rights, C4, Viacom, etc. all buy the Irish rights, they have to as they are on Sky and UPC. Normally they don't have to pay for the Irish rights, they just make it a condition of buying the UK rights and get it for free as the Irish market is so small in comparison.

English based TV stations do not buy Irish rights they may buy rights that cover ROI but they do not buy the Irish rights. RTE, TV3 and TG4 all buy ROI rights covering ROI, hence they work out deals to get first showings of Lost, Grey's Anatomy, CSI, House, Home and Away, The Wire, Without A Trace etc etc. Nothing stopping a new company doing this, but they would require the Terrestrial Platform. The EU has a law call Television Without Frontiers it allows broadcasters from other countries to transmit across Europe. English channel may also by European Right, the BBC certainly own most of the programming for satellite broadcasting. Bigger country, Bigger Population, Bigger Economy and different deals.

But again, I'll just say, if any Irish company wants to try broadcasting on DTT and are willing to pay for the cost of transmission, then fair play, let them at it, but we should also leave the UK channels do the same if they want and in fact we would be required to do so under EU competition law

No we wouldn't most other countries have gone out of their way to have national broadcasters bid for licenses provided by their Regulators, in sweden they gave only one Mux to foreign broadcasters. If Channel 4 wants to set up E4Ireland let them at it let them pay for transmission cost and also have them be required to provide Irish news and Current affairs and other Irish programming. Also any UK company abusing their position to stop Irish channels buying programming could be considered Anti-competitive.

tretle · 21-04-2009 08:58PM

Well I looked over app1.pdf or the mission statement for onevision and after reading it I have to say I am impressed. I was completely against boxer but I think onevision have a better idea of how things should be done.

They believe that the success of their pay services is greatly dependent on the FTA service and proposed to broadcast an extra 6 channels over the fta service in addition to what we will recieve from RTE'S mux.
Lets assume that the RTE Mux capacity is six also, This will bring Irish Free To Air unencrypted tv to 12 channels.

What I hope to find more information on now is how many mux's will be free after the analog switchoff and how many will be used for comercial and how many will be used for fta.

There are currently 42 channels being broadcast over fta(freeview) in britain. Although I think it will be unlikely that irish fta will reach this number in the next few years I hope we will make it to at least 32.
If anyone has any info on how many mux's will be available after the switchoff please let me know so we can discuss who should get what and how many mux's can be realistly assigned to fta.

All in all I dont think I would be disapointed if onevision got the liscence. They seem like a more realistic candidate than boxer. The meare thought that we could have 12 FTA channels before the analog switchoff and the possibility of more afterwards is a great one and everyone here that fought the idea of boxer controlling this by sending emails to newspapers, regulatory authorities and even the minister for communications should pat themselves on the back. If you simply disagreed in the confines of this forum you are also responsible for this outcome as for the mails I sent I always advised the review of these threads on the public view on boxer and the current scheme.

watty · 21-04-2009 09:44PM

tretle wrote: »

They believe that the success of their pay services is greatly dependent on the FTA service and proposed to broadcast an extra 6 channels over the fta service in addition to what we will recieve from RTE'S mux.
Lets assume that the RTE Mux capacity is six also, This will bring Irish Free To Air unencrypted tv to 12 channels.

What I hope to find more information on now is how many mux's will be free after the analog switchoff and how many will be used for comercial and how many will be used for fta.

There are currently 42 channels being broadcast over fta(freeview) in britain. Although I think it will be unlikely that irish fta will reach this number in the next few years I hope we will make it to at least 32.
If anyone has any info on how many mux's will be available after the switchoff please let me know so we can discuss who should get what and how many mux's can be realistly assigned to fta.

All in all I dont think I would be disapointed if onevision got the liscence. .

I'd be very surprised if ANYONE, takes up the payTV licence. Neither of the remaining bids have the money anymore.

It's not likely there would ever be more Muxes as the plan has always been to re-purpose 120MHz to 200MHz for Internet/Data/Mobile/Other not TV. That is what is meant as the "Digital Dividend" and the real reason for a Pan Europe ASO. Not to give More channels or HD.

It's unlikely we will see more than 20 channels on DTT. In short term unlikely to have ten. There is simply not the "Free" content here that there is in UK and no way for pay TV on DTT to ever compete now with Satellite/Cable. To have any chance (and it would very likely have failed as Spanish and UK pay DTT failed) it needed to start before Sky Digital and UPC takeover of Chorus/UPC, so it need to have full roll out by 1998.

If it looks to Comreg/Dept/BCI that there is no demand for pay TV ( and there definitely is for data) then the number of Muxes proposed could be reduced by one now.

bk · 21-04-2009 11:24PM

tretle wrote: »

Well I looked over app1.pdf or the mission statement for onevision and after reading it I have to say I am impressed. I was completely against boxer but I think onevision have a better idea of how things should be done.

Thanks you just reminded me that I was really surprised that Boxer won the license. Having looked at the three applications, Boxers looked like the worst by far with absolutely nothing to redeem it, Onevision looked the most costumer friendly by far and RTE/UPC the most conservative, but most stable and likely to be rolled out fast and well due to the experience of those involved.

The fact that Boxer was selected made me question just how bad the staff at the BCI are.

dave-higgz · 22-04-2009 12:43AM

watty wrote: »

I'd be very surprised if ANYONE, takes up the payTV licence. Neither of the remaining bids have the money anymore.

It's not likely there would ever be more Muxes as the plan has always been to re-purpose 120MHz to 200MHz for Internet/Data/Mobile/Other not TV. That is what is meant as the "Digital Dividend" and the real reason for a Pan Europe ASO. Not to give More channels or HD.

It's unlikely we will see more than 20 channels on DTT. In short term unlikely to have ten. There is simply not the "Free" content here that there is in UK and no way for pay TV on DTT to ever compete now with Satellite/Cable. To have any chance (and it would very likely have failed as Spanish and UK pay DTT failed) it needed to start before Sky Digital and UPC takeover of Chorus/UPC, so it need to have full roll out by 1998.

If it looks to Comreg/Dept/BCI that there is no demand for pay TV ( and there definitely is for data) then the number of Muxes proposed could be reduced by one now.

+1

Our wireless space needs to be focussed on wireless internet for those areas that need the broadband. I think that 4 multiplexes is too much for a freeview alternative because I don't even foresee 2 full multiplexes by ASO.

For the ASO to work, there needs to be cheap HD, interactive and all the digital bells and whistles to attract people because the programming can't get substantially better. I think 3e, RTE THREE, Setanta Ireland, City Channel(maybe), Irish film channel, Oireachtas Tv and some RTE news/current affairs/euronews/24 hour news channel are possible and that'll do grand in two multiplexes (the main channels in HD). Also have a similar US coupon scheme combined with cheap MPEG-4 HD STB's by 2012 and we should get this sorted.

dave-higgz · 22-04-2009 08:16AM

The Cush wrote: »

In France MPEG-4 muxes carry 3 HD channels or 1 HD channel and 4/5 SD channels.

If it's the same case here then RTE's PSB mux is not going to be enough. After ASO if a 5th mux is made available then that only leaves a space for 15 HD channels across the DTT spectrum. Surely this space should only be used for free TV. There really is no room for flexible premium TV.

Elmo · 22-04-2009 09:55AM

"digital dividend"

Champions

I love propaganda marketing/PR speak!

Elmo · 22-04-2009 10:24AM

One Vision have been given 2 weeks to decide if they are to press ahead with the licence. (I think this is a good amount of time and not too long).

Minister Ryan expects RTÉ to continue with the role out of the PSB Mux, which again I think is the most appropriate option at this current time.

I am going to suggest that initally RTÉ's PSB service provide +1 services on Mpeg4 and normal services on Mpeg2 with a caption informing viewers on Mpeg2 that they will need a new STB if they cannot receive the +1 service for future use of DTT.

petronius · 22-04-2009 10:47AM

Ok so this is not an MPEG2 V MPEG4 discussion.
I think the STB argument should be to get them on the market for 50-100euro equivalent to UK freeview boxes, and perhaps double that for an RTEFreeview+/PVR, but if people are going to buy them there has to be reasonable content on them - like are you gonna buy one for just getting the 4 terrestrial channels?
When you can get 100+ using Freesat?

I think good old RTE NL should be compelled to use the bandwidth whilst it is available and to broadcast 3e, Setanta Ireland and any other Irish Commercial non-subscription services to maintain a competitive TV market.

Also perhaps relaying the North of Ireland versions of BBC/ITV, with freeview settings for the North (I know i know some copy right mularkey but if I can access it via Freesat or an aerial pointing to Divis is it an issue?)

watty · 22-04-2009 11:56AM

http://www.independent.ie/business/media/one-vision-given-two-weeks--to-decide-on-digital-tv-offer-1715249.html

One Vision given two weeks to decide on digital TV offer

...

One Vision is also understood to be unlikely to agree to proceed with their bid as outlined in July, given the "economic circumstances" which Boxer/ Communicorp cited when returning the contract.

- Laura Noonan

Also http://www.independent.ie/business/media/tv3-consortium-offered-dtt-licence-1714291.html

If One Vision does not want to provide DTT on the terms they outlined last year, the contract will then fall to the third consortium which includes RTE and NTL/Chorus owner Liberty Global. If neither party wants to take it up under the terms proposed, a new tender could then be run.

- Laura Noonan

RTE?
http://www.independent.ie/business/media/ad-revenues-slump-at-rte-1710091.html

So by Mid June it should be clear if all Commercial PayTV DTT is gone, if in two weeks time the RTE co-partnered bid is also gone.

BCI & Government is barking mad if they re-tender. It's taken since collapse of the "it's TV" proposal (which was never feasible) in 2001 to get the current offer. They need to just go ahead on the PSB free Mux and forget about PayTV for DTT. It's never going to be viable or happen. Unless someone has more money than sense. Unlikely in current climate.

Elmo · 22-04-2009 12:06PM

watty wrote: »

The only non-subscription Irish TV is RTE1, RTE2, TV3 and TG4. The 3e and Setanta Ireland are PayTV only.

Setanta Ireland could be FTA, I don't think they pay for cable only rights. TV3 could sort out a deal with their suppliers during the change over that 3e is is basically still pay TV or does not have as much coverage as TV3 hence they may get away without having to increase the price of programming rights for DTT. CSI may cause problems since RTÉ hold the terresterial rights.

Digital provides for extra channels but those channels either need to be paid for by the public through PAY TV subscription or through the channels themselves, or a pay of between NI and ROI for free carrage on each system for the 4 Terrestrial channels, IMO C4 rather then UTV, but the 4 would be nice UTV and TV3 may have objections. only as long as 1,2,3 and 4 are available in NI also.

If you go with a FTA broadcast option all channels coming on to the platform would have to pay for carriage. It is unlike that many will go for that option and it is unlikely that RTÉ or OneVision would want to pay for them to be their without charging the Customer, since both RTÉ and TV3 would lose advertising reveune plus the cost of all of the infrasturcture.

This is why new channels with content need to be set up to provide some extra amount of FTA programming. These new channels would have must carry status, e.g. 3e, Setanta and MiTV do not have must carry status hence issues with coverage on UPC and Sky, as played out by Channel 6.

snaps · 22-04-2009 12:50PM

With the amount of people now having sky/cable i cannot see a pay DTT system working at all. It would really have to be good value & the receivers subsidised to at least what a sky receiver costs?

In my opinion its all "Too little too late"

bk · 22-04-2009 01:38PM

watty wrote: »

So by Mid June it should be clear if all Commercial PayTV DTT is gone, if in two weeks time the RTE co-partnered bid is also gone.

If OneVison falls through, then I assume RTE will also pull the plug on EasyVision, as RTE will assume that they get to pick up the pieces after the mess anyway and get what they really wanted from the start, a Freeview type service.

Elmo wrote: »

This is why new channels with content need to be set up to provide some extra amount of FTA programming. These new channels would have must carry status, e.g. 3e, Setanta and MiTV do not have must carry status hence issues with coverage on UPC and Sky, as played out by Channel 6.

I was with you up to here, if the UK channels, can't make it work, where they already have paid for the content, production, costs etc. just because they can't afford the electricity costs for the mux.

Then a whole new Irish channels certainly won't make it where they have to pay for content licensing, producers, staff, etc. on top of the electricity costs. It just doesn't make any logical sense.

Elmo · 22-04-2009 01:56PM

bk wrote: »

I was with you up to here, if the UK channels, can't make it work, where they already have paid for the content, production, costs etc. just because they can't afford the electricity costs for the mux.

Then a whole new Irish channels certainly won't make it where they have to pay for content licensing, producers, staff, etc. on top of the electricity costs. It just doesn't make any logical sense.

I just want new competition, I am sick of RTÉ and TV3. I do not think that giving FTA status to E4, BBC Three or Dave would help either RTÉ or TV3. Both need competition from another company with a focus in Ireland, so that they can improve their programming.

Anybody could buy Coronation Street and EastEnders and do quite well out of it

Content licencing as I said before isn't all that expensive, 2000 euro per hour but then I amn't looking for just another TV3. Also I assume your expecting a ****ty 24 hours station, walk before we can run kind of company like Channel 6.

Cost of carraige should reduce due to the number of channel slots available, I understood this to be part of the point to DTT. I know TV3 pay 1.5million to RTE NL for access to their network, I assume this will be reduce should more channels become available otherwise RTÉ NL plan on making alot of money.

Propellerhead · 22-04-2009 02:27PM

The sticking point comes down to this for me, and I suspect a lot of other people. I get overspill coverage on Digital Satellite for the sum of no euro and no cent per month of all the BBCs with no adverts to spoil my viewing. I watch RTE1 and 2 regularly and pay for a television licence. Never watch TV3 and rarely watch TG4.

Now, what part of a reboiled content, Irish based channel on a subscription basis with adverts would I be interested in?

Elmo · 22-04-2009 02:59PM

Propellerhead wrote: »

Now, what part of a reboiled content, Irish based channel on a subscription basis with adverts would I be interested in?

Exactly not what I am talking about.

TV3 needs to get its act together. It has relied heavly on ITV Productions over the last 7 years and got a boost with Terrestrail TV in their first 3 years.

TV3 have it handy, they might give out about the TV licence but they know as much as we all know that over the past 10 years they have had it easy.

What I am looking for is a small start up that will focus on quality programme and that will compete with Irish channels, the channel would be free to air and would also be a must carry service.

For those of us not that interested in Irish TV it would become an extra channel and hopefully for the rest a real competitor to RTE ONE, TWO and TV3.

So no I don't expect you to pay. But then that was my sticking point from the beginning.

Elmo · 22-04-2009 03:02PM

TV3 have it handy, they might give out about the TV licence but they know as much as we all know that over the past 10 years they have had it easy.

And because they have had it easy RTÉ have had it easy since TV3 don't try competiting with them.

Sorry could edit my last post

watty · 22-04-2009 03:05PM

Must carry just means that, someone has to pay.

I think Elmo you want to look at how much production costs. What you suggest is impossible without Millions of Euro subsidy. Maybe double the licence fee?

Elmo · 22-04-2009 03:26PM

watty wrote: »

Must carry just means that, someone has to pay.

I think Elmo you want to look at how much production costs. What you suggest is impossible without Millions of Euro subsidy. Maybe double the licence fee?

I have looked, I know, I understand, but I am angry that TV3 won't use their money correctly. The licence fee is spread across so much more then just TV production.

The licence would be granted to a FTA companying willing to pay for carriage.

The option for such a channel should be available at the very least. More competition in the arean that's what TV3 was supposed to be about. As I have said they have had it handy.

Elmo · 22-04-2009 03:29PM

By licence I mean the licence that the BCI would give the company not the TV Licence Fee. Just to clarify. Again can't edit my previous post.

Andy454 · 22-04-2009 03:29PM

I personally would love to be able to access DTT from my phone, laptop etc while on the go....

Apogee · 22-04-2009 06:58PM

snaps wrote: »

With the amount of people now having sky/cable i cannot see a pay DTT system working at all. It would really have to be good value & the receivers subsidised to at least what a sky receiver costs?

Relative to the entry packages sold by UPC and Sky, the original OneVision proposal was decent value.

OneVision - €9.99 per month or €120 per year

UPC - €25 per month or €300 per year

Sky - €20 per month or €240 per year

Elmo · 22-04-2009 07:21PM

Apogee wrote: »

Relative to the entry packages sold by UPC and Sky, the original OneVision proposal was decent value.

OneVision - €9.99 per month or €120 per year

UPC - €25 per month or €300 per year

Sky - €20 per month or €240 per year

UPC I think provide more channels on their basic pack, the image above is only a small representation of what they provide. City Channel, DCTV, BBC News, Virgin 1, TV5, EuroNews etc are also provided on their basic digital package. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_channels_on_UPC_Ireland I don't know how they break down into packages.

Your also assuming that OneVision will keep to their plan of 10euro per month. 3xpose and Channel 6 is pretty much 3e now.

Why do you need BBC World News and BBC News 24? One could be drop in preference of the other IMO.

Apogee · 22-04-2009 07:32PM

Elmo wrote: »

UPC I think provide more channels on their basic pack, the image above is only a small representation of what they provide. City Channel, DCTV, BBC News, Virgin 1, TV5, EuroNews etc are also provided on their basic digital package.

They are on the Select package, which isn't the entry level one.

Elmo wrote: »

Your also assuming that OneVision will keep to their plan of 10euro per month.

I didn't assume anything. I stated it was the "original OneVision proposal".

Elmo · 22-04-2009 07:38PM

Apogee wrote: »

They are on the Select package, which isn't the entry level one.

I didn't assume anything. I stated it was the "original OneVision proposal".

There are more on the Entry level, I have select but I am sure the Basic package has more music channels then just MTV, it definitely has EuroNews, perhaps some other Discovery Channels (Not sure about the Nat Geographic Channel). From what I can see from Select I get all of the Plus One Services which I really don't want.

Sorry!

tretle · 22-04-2009 07:57PM

Screw yellow cards you have warned people enough just delete any mpeg2 rubbish posted from now on.

As for Onevision vs the UPC deal, keep in mind in the document that was sourced from they also stated that 6 of the channels shown in the basic package would be offered over unencrypted free to air for everyone to enjoy on top of what will be offered by the rte dtt mux(another 6 channels).

As for TV3, the more I research it the more slack I want to give them, yes they recieve monenr ey from advertising but RTE recieve money for advertising (143 million in 2006) and the tv licence (58 million). They ended up with a net surplus of 10million by the end of the year. Its worth notinig that the dcenr took in 206million from the tv licence which kind of makes you wonder wher the remaining 149 million went.

I doubt that TV3 make the same from advertising that RTE do as RTE have a higer viewership due to the amount of money they have to produce Irish shows and needlesly upgrade newsrooms. RTE also noted that without the extra revenue comming from the tv licence they would be in trouble, maybe being put in a situation where they can no longer produce as many irish shows and end up in a situation like TV3.

I kind of feel bad for TV3 as they cannot afford to produce more home content, because they do not make enough money from advertising but they also cannot make enough money from advertising without more irish content.

TV3 also stated in the mission statement for onevision that they are far more interested in fta and I assume they are responsible for the idea of offering the irish people an extra 6 fta channels to mull over, most likely offering good deals to that group of broadcasters which I spoke of before, remember... the ones that see irish fta as a good form of revenue

:P

I dont know if this should be the place to talk of new irish startups to create competition in the irish market but part of onevisions mission statement was to ease these kind of startups entering the market so thats cool in my opinion. Unfortunately allot of the documents I read on this are long and image based so no text search for finding relevent quotes so I am not going to spend hours doing so but running a new irish channel would be expensive, very very very expensive...... SO expensive you would need to win the euromillions several times to be in with a chance and even then you have a chance of liquidating.

Im going to judge tv3 from now on based on their intentions and capability to achieve goals rather than comparing them to RTE as I find that quite unfair, in the end money does matter because without it taking chances could cost you everything.

tretle · 22-04-2009 08:01PM

Elmo wrote: »

There are more on the Entry level, I have select but I am sure the Basic package has more music channels then just MTV, it definitely has EuroNews, perhaps some other Discovery Channels (Not sure about the Nat Geographic Channel). From what I can see from Select I get all of the Plus One Services which I really don't want.

Sorry!

This would most likely change due to eircoms iptv work which was noted in the mission statement. The idea was to create a onevision website that you could use to catch up on shows you missed during the week. The RTE player was mentioned in there too..

Though I agree, +1 channels seem like a waste when you have alternative solutions like pvr and iptv already wide spread.

DTT Commercial Multiplexes (was OneVision, Boxer etc...)

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