DTT Commercial Multiplexes (was OneVision, Boxer etc...)

keith99 · 21-04-2009 09:05AM

the following sports are fta on Freesat, analog and on euro satellites but are on pay tv like sky sports and setanta sports

US Open tennis on german eurosport
formula one on bbctv
FA cup games on itv and the german sports tv channel DSF
Euro and World CUP international live competitive games on many Euro tv channels including England, Scotland, Wales, Germany, spain, France, Italy etc
Heineken CUP rugby live on France 2
Magners League Rugby live bbc2 wales and S4C
Champions League Soccer on ITV, TV3 from next season, RTE2 and SAT1
UEFA cup games on Five, TV3, ITV4 and Sat1
Rep of Ire's competive home and away games by law have to be on Irish Terrestrial tv

After typing in the above, I think Boxer was doomed, should always start with the PSB tv channels and then try to add pay tv channels if it is established like the UK Freeview and toptv tried it out

green123 wrote: »

can you tell me how to get sky sports free ?

you cant get sky sports on freesat or with an aerial.

so are you getting it from this euro satellite ?

bazwaldo · 21-04-2009 09:28AM

keith99 wrote: »

the following sports are fta on Freesat, analog and on euro satellites but are on pay tv like sky sports and setanta sports

US Open tennis on german eurosport
formula one on bbctv
FA cup games on itv and the german sports tv channel DSF
Euro and World CUP international live competitive games on many Euro tv channels including England, Scotland, Wales, Germany, spain, France, Italy etc
Heineken CUP rugby live on France 2
Magners League Rugby live bbc2 wales and S4C
Champions League Soccer on ITV, TV3 from next season, RTE2 and SAT1
UEFA cup games on Five, TV3, ITV4 and Sat1
Rep of Ire's competive home and away games by law have to be on Irish Terrestrial tv

After typing in the above, I think Boxer was doomed, should always start with the PSB tv channels and then try to add pay tv channels if it is established like the UK Freeview and toptv tried it out

No mention of the premiership which is what most would be subscribing to Sky Sports for.

watty · 21-04-2009 09:30AM

slegs wrote: »

The picture quality, ability to digitally record and EPG will be make the switch worth it for most people as long as STB's are affordable

WS animorphic and also HDMI for flat panels with poor analogue in.

bk · 21-04-2009 09:52AM

tretle wrote: »

I have to disagree, I think RTE will meet the deadline for FTA DTT no problem, if people don't see the point in switching from 4 channels with ****y reception to 4 channels with digital reception then thats their own fault.
Once the coverage is there its being switched off, and why not? Postpone and face a fine from the EU becuase people couldnt be bothered using common sense, no thats not how it works, Its a set of technical requirements, not opinions.

I completely disagree, try telling my retired parents that they have to spend between €400 and €500 for STB's for the 4 TV's and 1 VCR just so they can get the exact same channels again that they are already happy with.

There will be war by the gray brigade and we all know that they are by far the most politically powerful group in Ireland. I'd hate to be the minister trying to convince these people the benefits of ASO, as basically now there is almost no benefit.

watty wrote:

slegs wrote:

The picture quality, ability to digitally record and EPG will be make the switch worth it for most people as long as STB's are affordable

WS animorphic and also HDMI for flat panels with poor analogue in.

I don't think any of that will be enough for most people who rely on terrestrial. Remember we are talking about a country which has the highest penetration of multi-channel TV in the world, so people who remain on just terrestrial are people who just don't care about WS or better picture quality, etc. We are mostly talking about elderly people or people who can't afford more expensive solutions. Non of them will want this.

I tried to explain the ASO to my parents a few weeks ago, they were very angry about it as they just didn't see any benefit, while lots of cost. I explained they needed to do it to free up more space for lots of new channels, but now that isn't even true.

These quotes are taken from an RTE document entitled "Letter in Digital Switchover" written in August 2007 by Conor Hayes, RTE's Chief Financial Officer.
So what the hell happened?

RTE seem to be the only people in this whole mess who actually have a clue as to how this is all going to go. Certainly no one in the Department of Comms or the BCI has any clue.

I hope they just leave the whole thing to RTE and follow their advice, they seem to know what they are doing.

Elmo · 21-04-2009 10:16AM

tretle wrote: »

And as for british channels paying to broadcast on irish free to air service, I think its a hell of alot smarter than trying to sell bundle space(3 mux) with a 12 year contract.
In fact if it were changed to a 4 year contract on a channel per channel basis(cheaper deal) then I bet 50euro's we would have at least 2 british broadcasters interested(and not the ****y game show channel variety either).
And if not why not, maybe advertising will need to be tought out again with the consideration of non irish broadcasters broadcasting irish adverts on the channels they pay for a licence to broadcast in ireland over dtt.

All of the british broadcasts spend millions on Freeview and Freesat it is unlikely that they would want to spend any money on Irish broadcasting. Channel 4 view ROI as a bit of a freeby since they get paid to be on UPC and also earn plenty of extra cash from advertising revenues and they don't have to worry about local content. Happy Days.

Elmo · 21-04-2009 10:18AM

bk wrote: »

I completely disagree, try telling my retired parents that they have to spend between €400 and €500 for STB's for the 4 TV's and 1 VCR just so they can get the exact same channels again that they are already happy with.

There will be war by the gray brigade and we all know that they are by far the most politically powerful group in Ireland. I'd hate to be the minister trying to convince these people the benefits of ASO, as basically now there is almost no benefit.

RTÉ, TV3 and TG4 will have to pay for a simple STB for the "grey brigade".

I will say this once more for everyone: -

1. DTT Switchover must happen.
2. It won't matter what is available on the service once the current Analogue service is switched off.
3. It has to be role out for the benifit of the country, it is unacceptable that we still are only in Trial mode for DTT.

I don't think any of that will be enough for most people who rely on terrestrial. Remember we are talking about a country which has the highest penetration of multi-channel TV in the world, so people who remain on just terrestrial are people who just don't care about WS or better picture quality, etc. We are mostly talking about elderly people or people who can't afford more expensive solutions. Non of them will want this.

I tried to explain the ASO to my parents a few weeks ago, they were very angry about it as they just didn't see any benefit, while lots of cost. I explained they needed to do it to free up more space for lots of new channels, but now that isn't even true.

Only proving my point. Also Boxer in sweden has just as high a Cable take up due to TV3 (Viasat) and Kanal 5 both of which where only available via satitellite and cable. It was only when the Swedes turned off analogue that Boxer started to gain any popularity, due only to Terrestrial viewers not wanting to move over.

I would rather RTÉ, TV3 and TG4 develop their own stations and within in a year start developing new ones that can be carried on that extra space. Espically since the STB will cost a fortune during the role out.

Andy454 · 21-04-2009 10:32AM

BANG!!!

Well, alas Boxer is no more, ne..

keith99 · 21-04-2009 10:33AM

It is possible to bring the grey brigade to freesat and analog to Irish DTT

in 2003, I cancelled NTL for the Sky Freesat and a outdoor tv aerial, it was hard for my parents to get used to it, after a few weeks NTL was not missed and they don't miss UTV, BBC Northern Ireland and NTL tv signals going off

WE had no problems with it so far, I live in Crumlin and when NTL goes off, neighbours ask us is your NTL off, we always reply no because we have freesat and the aerial

I have broadband so I watch every Eng Premier League involving man utd live on the web

bk wrote: »

I completely disagree, try telling my retired parents that they have to spend between €400 and €500 for STB's for the 4 TV's and 1 VCR just so they can get the exact same channels again that they are already happy with.

There will be war by the gray brigade and we all know that they are by far the most politically powerful group in Ireland. I'd hate to be the minister trying to convince these people the benefits of ASO, as basically now there is almost no benefit.

I don't think any of that will be enough for most people who rely on terrestrial. Remember we are talking about a country which has the highest penetration of multi-channel TV in the world, so people who remain on just terrestrial are people who just don't care about WS or better picture quality, etc. We are mostly talking about elderly people or people who can't afford more expensive solutions. Non of them will want this.

I tried to explain the ASO to my parents a few weeks ago, they were very angry about it as they just didn't see any benefit, while lots of cost. I explained they needed to do it to free up more space for lots of new channels, but now that isn't even true.

RTE seem to be the only people in this whole mess who actually have a clue as to how this is all going to go. Certainly no one in the Department of Comms or the BCI has any clue.

I hope they just leave the whole thing to RTE and follow their advice, they seem to know what they are doing.

ynotdu · 21-04-2009 10:36AM

I am pretty sure older or vunerable people will receive help towards the digital switchover(assuming there will be an economy left!:eek:)if for no other reason other than loss of viewers of adverts and grannies throwing their tv,s at td,s:)

I am almost sure that in the UK pensioners at least have received grants as analog has closed down by region.

In the US switchover is now complete although o,bama asked as president elect that it be delayed because of the economy,to the best of my knowledge nobody got any help with digital switchover.

proably would have cost G Bush the price of a cruise missile!

Elmo · 21-04-2009 10:56AM

ynotdu wrote: »

In the US switchover is now complete although o,bama asked as president elect that it be delayed because of the economy,to the best of my knowledge nobody got any help with digital switchover.

proably would have cost G Bush the price of a cruise missile!

I could be wrong but I am fairly certain that G. Bush actually provided some money to some people during the switchover. Fairly certain I read about that somewhere, I was surprised, perhaps it was a Dream.

bk · 21-04-2009 11:04AM

ynotdu wrote: »

In the US switchover is now complete although o,bama asked as president elect that it be delayed because of the economy,to the best of my knowledge nobody got any help with digital switchover.

proably would have cost G Bush the price of a cruise missile!

In the US, vouchers were given out for free STB's to many people. But also remember the switch over in the US was also a switch to a HD service, so there was even more benefit.

What I'm trying to get at, given this mess, I think everyone needs to step back and re-examine how this is going to be done.

Perhaps RTE's ideas of getting BBC and the other UK channels for free and they reciprocating with the Irish channels up north should be re-examined. It would be good politically for reconciliation between North and South.

Also given that we expect so few channels, perhaps going straight to HD to start with would be a good idea.

Imagine a service where you had RTE 1, 2, 3, News, TV3, 3e, Tg4, BBC1 ,2, C4, UTV, in HD and all for free. Now that is a service that would take off quickly, where people like my parents would be happy to move over, rather then being unhappily forced to do so.

If an agreement could arranged between the Irish and UK governments, it could perhaps be done at minimum cost* and cheaper then the government having to buy boxes for the grey brigade and having to suffer the political fall out.

* The Irish government would have to shoulder the transmission costs for the UK channels.

Also if we do only end up with just the 4 channels, I don't think it would be awful to simulcast them in both MPEG2 and 4, sure we have plenty of space now and it would help smooth the transfer. Perhaps SD MPEG2, HD MPEG 4.

danjo · 21-04-2009 11:29AM

ynotdu wrote: »

I am pretty sure older or vunerable people will receive help towards the digital switchover(assuming there will be an economy left!:eek:)if for no other reason other than loss of viewers of adverts and grannies throwing their tv,s at td,s:)

I can see it already. Your local politicians will be handing out free STBs in advance of the June elections.

Vote for me and get an STB!

A repetition of the free telephones (without lines) a few years ago. Classic

Elmo · 21-04-2009 11:43AM

danjo wrote: »

I can see it already. Your local politicians will be handing out free STBs in advance of the June elections.

Vote for me and get an STB!

A repetition of the free telephones (without lines) a few years ago. Classic

Senior Soliadarity might be willing to look at it for the Grey Vote.

marclt · 21-04-2009 12:03PM

Elmo wrote: »

Senior Soliadarity might be willing to look at it for the Grey Vote.

The govt. will have to give away more than an STB to win back the grey vote (unless they are inserted with a medical card!).

If the push to digital is going to work effectively, then digital has to offer more than just 4 channels. Sure the picture quality is better, but only if you have a good signal to start with! I wonder how many homes in Ireland only have analogue tv to start with, that number is pretty low I'd say. Even if it is the case, you'll probably find those homes have access to UK analogue channels too by this stage.

The dso switchover is already causing confusion amongst some who won't be able to get a freeview signal from a main transmitter and therefore will only receive half of the freeview offering. So, digital does need to offer something better.

In a country where multichannel penetration is so high, you need to offer content that will attract people to the service. Plus, there needs to be lots of information out there about what is happening, because recession or no recession I've heard of rip off prices being charged for satellite installations in the south east where UK analogue reception is high.

We can talk about it until the cows come home... the BCI need to recognise they have made an error... and change their course of action pretty quickly if this is to be a success. If pay DTT didn't work in the UK when the economy was booming it sure as hell won't work in a smaller market during a recession.

A subsidiary company needs to form out of RTE to pick up the pieces and run the show... and their initial idea on the UK channels is a great one.

Elmo · 21-04-2009 12:15PM

marclt wrote: »

The govt. will have to give away more than an STB to win back the grey vote (unless they are inserted with a medical card!).

If the push to digital is going to work effectively, then digital has to offer more than just 4 channels. Sure the picture quality is better, but only if you have a good signal to start with! I wonder how many homes in Ireland only have analogue tv to start with, that number is pretty low I'd say. Even if it is the case, you'll probably find those homes have access to UK analogue channels too by this stage.

The dso switchover is already causing confusion amongst some who won't be able to get a freeview signal from a main transmitter and therefore will only receive half of the freeview offering. So, digital does need to offer something better.

In a country where multichannel penetration is so high, you need to offer content that will attract people to the service. Plus, there needs to be lots of information out there about what is happening, because recession or no recession I've heard of rip off prices being charged for satellite installations in the south east where UK analogue reception is high.

We can talk about it until the cows come home... the BCI need to recognise they have made an error... and change their course of action pretty quickly if this is to be a success. If pay DTT didn't work in the UK when the economy was booming it sure as hell won't work in a smaller market during a recession.

A subsidiary company needs to form out of RTE to pick up the pieces and run the show... and their initial idea on the UK channels is a great one.

Again I keep saying that DSO (Digital Switch Over) or ASO (Analogue Switch Off) has to happen. If the 4 main ROI channels become freely available on Channels 5 - 8 in NI then RTÉ NL should provide the same positions for the NI channels in ROI, free of charge both ways.

Boxer, One Vision and Easy TV will all Fail they need to provide quality TV programming and reception. That is why RTÉ need to role out Digital without any hassels of extra channels but also the Irish channels do not need the hassel of English stations taking Irish money out of the economy to boost their incomes from advertising. Channel 4, Virgin, UTV, Sky and Viacom are all earning a nice proprotion of Irish advertising revenues. Why?

Newer Irish companies need to compete on an even playing feild futher access to Anglo-American channels does not help either the industry or the public in terms of choice.

Start out with the role out, then think of the licences that can be provided.

21-04-2009 12:17PM

marclt wrote: »

The govt. will have to give away more than an STB to win back the grey vote (unless they are inserted with a medical card!).

If the push to digital is going to work effectively, then digital has to offer more than just 4 channels. Sure the picture quality is better, but only if you have a good signal to start with! I wonder how many homes in Ireland only have analogue tv to start with, that number is pretty low I'd say. Even if it is the case, you'll probably find those homes have access to UK analogue channels too by this stage.

The dso switchover is already causing confusion amongst some who won't be able to get a freeview signal from a main transmitter and therefore will only receive half of the freeview offering. So, digital does need to offer something better.

In a country where multichannel penetration is so high, you need to offer content that will attract people to the service. Plus, there needs to be lots of information out there about what is happening, because recession or no recession I've heard of rip off prices being charged for satellite installations in the south east where UK analogue reception is high.

We can talk about it until the cows come home... the BCI need to recognise they have made an error... and change their course of action pretty quickly if this is to be a success. If pay DTT didn't work in the UK when the economy was booming it sure as hell won't work in a smaller market during a recession.

A subsidiary company needs to form out of RTE to pick up the pieces and run the show... and their initial idea on the UK channels is a great one.

Excelent post.
I couldn't have wrote it better myself.

The BCI won't recognise their error.
They should have the cop on to know that the future of this lies with whatever is viable and that will be an RTE subsidary joint venture with chorus/ntl.
They do have to go to the under bidders probably because of some stupid clause in the law but really they should be calling them all in and demanding a response within days so they can rule them out and work on what they should have done in the first place.

Procrastination killed this a long time ago.

Back in the day of "its tv" there was some hope of a paying service but it was scotched by incompetent regulators in my opinion.

What needs to be done is that the overall licence fee be increased with digital switchover to include whatever small fee that is necessary to clear BBC/ITV and Four going on the RTE system and leave it at that.

ynotdu · 21-04-2009 12:27PM

danjo wrote: »

I can see it already. Your local politicians will be handing out free STBs in advance of the June elections.

Vote for me and get an STB!

A repetition of the free telephones (without lines) a few years ago. Classic

lol lol lol

bk · 21-04-2009 12:52PM

Elmo wrote: »

That is why RTÉ need to role out Digital without any hassels of extra channels but also the Irish channels do not need the hassel of English stations taking Irish money out of the economy to boost their incomes from advertising. Channel 4, Virgin, UTV, Sky and Viacom are all earning a nice proprotion of Irish advertising revenues. Why?

I disagree, RTE themselves have suggested that the UK channels be broadcast in Ireland, there are three reasons for this:

1) Irish people always have and will always want to receive the UK channels, it is simply the reality of the Irish TV market since the day BBC first started broadcasting.

2) RTE has very successfully competed with the UK channels, in the 80% or so of homes that currently receive the UK channels, due to their own home grown content, so they have nothing to fear.

3) I guess they figure any lost ad revenue could be made up by increased ad revenue from broadcasting into Northern Ireland.

Elmo wrote: »

Newer Irish companies need to compete on an even playing feild futher access to Anglo-American channels does not help either the industry or the public in terms of choice.

I disagree, Ireland is too small to have more then 4 Irish channels and even they struggle to produce enough quality Irish content.

Any additional Irish channels * would simply show UK and US content night and day and probably wouldn't do as good a job as the UK channels do at it (see 3e).

I think we would be better off focusing on getting more and better quality Irish content on the existing 4 channels and let the US and UK content to the UK channels who already do it well.

* I think they could do some sort of RTE catch-up TV channel and I'd love to see a 24 hour news channel (even just a 15 minute broadcast recorded every 3 hours and repeated, interspersed with Euroenews or similar).

mjsmyth · 21-04-2009 01:13PM

bk wrote: »

* I think they could do some sort of RTE catch-up TV channel and I'd love to see a 24 hour news channel (even just a 15 minute broadcast recorded every 3 hours and repeated, interspersed with Euroenews or similar).

I proposed something similar during the week:

"I can't see a place for a purely 24/7 RTE News Channel. Perhaps it needs to be mixed with EuroNews and maybe some additional sports from Setanta Sports News perhaps?"

RTE already have access to Euronews and it gives Setanta a footing into Irish DTT without having fully jump in.

mj

marclt · 21-04-2009 01:16PM

It doesn't have to be just about homegrown content on a tv station, it could be the extension of irish radio services across the country. So 4FM could go nationwide, as well as the other larger local stations.

Listening to the radio via the tv is becoming commonplace in the UK, believe it or not. Plus you have interactive text services, dating services like rabbit that can generate income to offset costs.

There is no point in any new station just replaying what has already been broadcast on another channel. But there must be an advantage for those pay channels who appear for free on freeview. Freeview is available in every home for minimal cost. Those channels like Virgin1, Dave, Yesterday etc still receive a sub from being on sky but choose to be free on DTT. Channels like E4, or Sky news that receive irish advertising could be persuaded to join up because being available in all homes increases ad revenue.

Elmo · 21-04-2009 01:57PM

bk wrote: »

I disagree, RTE themselves have suggested that the UK channels be broadcast in Ireland, there are three reasons for this:

1) Irish people always have and will always want to receive the UK channels, it is simply the reality of the Irish TV market since the day BBC first started broadcasting.

Fine the main UK channels but why should cheap channels such as More 4, E4, BBC Three, BBC Four, Virgin 1, Sky 3 etc be made extensitively available in ROI when either new or existing Broadcasters could provided the same content and use this revenue for Irish productions, Irish Tax i.e. E4 mix of US programming doesn't really provide anything to anyone in Ireland unlike a similar Irish Channel doing exactly the same thing. I.e. EMPLOYMENT.

2) RTE has very successfully competed with the UK channels, in the 80% or so of homes that currently receive the UK channels, due to their own home grown content, so they have nothing to fear.

Indeed they have but I amn't just taking about the main UK channels RTÉ will need a mix of channels but they shouldn't wish those channels away by making E4, Sky 3, Virgin 1, Watch freely available in ROI.

3) I guess they figure any lost ad revenue could be made up by increased ad revenue from broadcasting into Northern Ireland.

That is if the English broadcasters are happy for them to run CSI, Grey Anotomy etc etc in NI, FIVE aren't happy with Home and Away running on RTÉ in the north but how long did RTÉ have to put up with it on UTV?

I disagree, Ireland is too small to have more then 4 Irish channels and even they struggle to produce enough quality Irish content.

RTÉ has already got a 3rd channel if it wants it, their late night schedules could be used to fill RTÉ Three and then their is its back catelog of programmes for RTÉ Four.

Any additional Irish channels * would simply show UK and US content night and day and probably wouldn't do as good a job as the UK channels do at it (see 3e).

I amn't a fan of the marketing used by 3e (or the TV3 group) it has let them down, but whats the difference between watching in treatment on 3e V More 4 or a repeat of friend on 3e V e4? NONE. 3E is just as good as E4 and its revenues could help progress jobs and production in Ireland. E4 will not.

I think we would be better off focusing on getting more and better quality Irish content on the existing 4 channels and let the US and UK content to the UK channels who already do it well.

RTÉ, TV3 and TG4 cann't produced better qualilty TV if most of the advertising revenue goes out of the state. How many UK channels will be able to take advertising revenue from RTÉ. Advertising revene is up at 300,000,000 in this country (2007, it will go down) more UK opt outs means less money for RTÉ, TV3 and TG4 means less productions reduced quality and more US programming across the 4 channels, I am not suggesting that RTÉ, TV3 or TG4 spend huge amounts on extra channels, 3e is run on less then 5million.

* I think they could do some sort of RTE catch-up TV channel and I'd love to see a 24 hour news channel (even just a 15 minute broadcast recorded every 3 hours and repeated, interspersed with Euroenews or similar).

No not another +1 channle but a News Channel called RTÉ International would be welcomed.

Capt'n Midnight · 21-04-2009 02:28PM

Many people here don't have aerials so the cost of DVB-T is Box + Aerial + Installation , this makes it close to FTA satellite install cost. So subscription for UK terrestrial is a non starter for the large chunk of the market who already have Cable or satellite.

You need better reception for DVB-T than for fuzzy TV , an internal one may not do this will upset a lot of people who live in bad reception areas. Again they may go the FTA satellite route as it's the same cost.

I could see the UK channels that have Irish specific ads going to DTT here. But I can't see the BBC doing much more than BBC world for free, even though they have already paid for the rights so no overlap there. Channel 4 have no vested interests here and not much of their stuff is shown on RTE so they should be OK. UTV / TV3 / ITN / RTE overlap a lot of programming so can't see much love lost.

Shopping channels, much as you hate them, will pay for some of the infrastructure but will there be enough viewers to subsiside FTA.

Subscription channels like Disney will require a more expensive box.
Still not sure what would make people choose this over SKY or UPC in sufficient numbers to support the FTA channel infrastructure.

What % of the population uses aerials for TV with quality good enough for DVB-T ?

bk · 21-04-2009 03:01PM

Elmo wrote: »

Fine the main UK channels but why should cheap channels such as More 4, E4, BBC Three, BBC Four, Virgin 1, Sky 3 etc be made extensitively available in ROI when either new or existing Broadcasters could provided the same content and use this revenue for Irish productions, Irish Tax i.e. E4 mix of US programming doesn't really provide anything to anyone in Ireland unlike a similar Irish Channel doing exactly the same thing. I.e. EMPLOYMENT.

Two points you are missing:

1) These channels all belong to large media corporations and typically buy the rights to both the UK and Ireland. No small Irish company would have the money to compete with them, only RTE is big enough to fight for Irish rights to imported shows.

This would mean that any small Irish channel would only end up with the crap imports that the UK channels didn't want or very, very old repeats and the DTT viewers are left with content they don't want, which would just drive them to Sky and UPC to get the content they want. Just look at 3e's line up to see what I'm talking about.

2) Any such channels will quickly die, basing your business model on DTT which represents less then 30% of the Irish TV market (or about 300,000 homes) just doesn't cut it for a niche channel. You would also need to get a good position on Sky and UPC in order to stand any chance and Sky or UPC are unlikely to help out there (again just look at 3e).

The reality is that what you a proposing just isn't realistic.

BTW I was only talking about the 4 main UK terrestrial channels being on Irish DTT. Any other channels would have to pay for their own carriage on Irish DTT and that should be open to both Irish and UK channels.

If some Irish channel wants to try it, fair play to them, but I don't think they would survive.

eirman · 21-04-2009 03:18PM

Most of us know that Northern Ireland is dropping analogue transmissions and upping the power of freeview in 2012.

Does this impose any international obligations on the Irish Government/RTE ?

Elmo · 21-04-2009 03:34PM

bk wrote: »

Two points you are missing:

1) These channels all belong to large media corporations and typically buy the rights to both the UK and Ireland. No small Irish company would have the money to compete with them, only RTE is big enough to fight for Irish rights to imported shows.

This would mean that any small Irish channel would only end up with the crap imports that the UK channels didn't want or very, very old repeats and the DTT viewers are left with content they don't want, which would just drive them to Sky and UPC to get the content they want. Just look at 3e's line up to see what I'm talking about.

Viacom and other do not buy Irish/UK rights the will buy rights extending to Ireland but often RTE, TV3 and TG4 will buy these right for ROI exclusively. An Irish company spends from 500 - 2000 for an hour on Irish rights for international programming. In Britain they can spend anything from 30,000 up to 1,000,000 per hour, bigger audience, different country, different economy.

Any Irish channel setting up would buy the shows based on Irish rates not on UK ones, also they would have the added advantage of being available across all platforms in Ireland which UK stations currently do not have e.g. ITV2, 3, 4 are not on the UPC platform, 3E is available on Sky and UPC.

2) Any such channels will quickly die, basing your business model on DTT which represents less then 30% of the Irish TV market (or about 300,000 homes) just doesn't cut it for a niche channel. You would also need to get a good position on Sky and UPC in order to stand any chance and Sky or UPC are unlikely to help out there (again just look at 3e).

3E is not available on Terrestrial TV and I am suggesting that any new Irish channels become must carries on all platforms like RTE ONE, TWO, TV3 and TG4.

UPC are controlled by BCI and they have 4 must carry services plus Setanta Sport, 3E and City Channel. Any extra channels would be must carry.

BTW I was only talking about the 4 main UK terrestrial channels being on Irish DTT. Any other channels would have to pay for their own carriage on Irish DTT and that should be open to both Irish and UK channels.

If some Irish channel wants to try it, fair play to them, but I don't think they would survive..

As I said the four main channels are fine as long as the 4 Irish channels are available in NI.

RTÉ, TV3 and TG4 all know if they are to survive they will need extra channels . To have more pay TV on terrestial isn't worth the time or energy involved.

I think if a channel has enough courage to go in a different direction they could pull it off. Unforuately the BCI and ComReg have left the DSO too late to promote Irish Channels and new streams of revenue.

Channel 6 suffered due to the lack of investment in orginal Irish programming and their remit wasn't wide enough, it is suitable as a TV3 spin off but nothing more. TV3 have ruined the channel by not having 3e programming, some Irish content is need. But their are plenty of mistakes about Channel 6 that I can point out to you. Oh and they aren't on Terrestial TV do you think TV3 would have survived if it was only available on cable/sat when it started out?

Elmo · 21-04-2009 03:38PM

eirman wrote: »

Does this impose any international obligations on the Irish Government/RTE ?

The EU have said 2012 for all countries however they have extended this to 2015 so it will possibly be 2015. Some countries have already switched off annalogue. Sweden did it in 2007, with the help of boxer.

snaps · 21-04-2009 03:46PM

marclt wrote: »

Wouldn't the most obvious solution be to broadcast MPEG2 and 4 transmissions until analogue is switched off fully.. that way you are maximising the numbers of viewers who may already have a built in tuner.

The environmental impact of all of this has to be taken into consideration. Frankly, I'm sick of all these extra boxes piling underneath the set (things used to be so much easier!)

But seriously, a halfway house in the interim could be a good option.

Here here! I can then watch the irish channels in every room of my house that has a TV other than the interferenced/wishy washy analogue pictures i get now. In the summer when atmospherics are upon us, I can forget about analogue!

reslfj · 21-04-2009 03:49PM

marclt wrote: »

....it could be the extension of irish radio services across the country. So 4FM could go nationwide, as well as the other larger local stations.

Listening to the radio via the tv is becoming commonplace in the UK, believe it or not.

The DTT signals are not robust enough for general radio reception - DTT is planned for fixed aerials 10 m above ground. If the 'DTT-radio receiver' is hand-held or it is moving, the reception will not be acceptable.

The UHF 8MHz channels will consume much to much power in hand-held receivers. Remember the receiver needs to receive one full multiplex of 24 Mbit/s and just use one audio channel of 64-192 kbit/s. DVB-H was build on top of DVB-T to increase the signal robustness and save battery power, but DVB-H has a lot of other problems and is unlikely to happen.

For Hi-FI surround-sound radio channels (concert class audio), DTT can provide the high bit-rate needed at the lowest cost.

Lars

snaps · 21-04-2009 03:53PM

reslfj wrote: »

The DTT signals are not robust enough for general radio reception - DTT is planned for fixed aerials 10 m above ground. If the 'DTT-radio receiver' is hand-held or it is moving, the reception will not be acceptable.

I think via satellite stb's or freeview stbs were meant not TV signals in general?

mjsmyth · 21-04-2009 04:10PM

@ Lars

I believe the OP was talking about using your TV to listen to Radio Stations, not about a portable DTT radio.

And yes, it is true that people in the UK use their TV's to listen to the radio. when I first experienced it, well I thought it a little strange, but now I do it too. BBC 5 Live is a great station at the weekends!

mj

DTT Commercial Multiplexes (was OneVision, Boxer etc...)

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