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Photo to be needed to collect welfare

13

Comments

  • #62
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Heineken Helen wrote: »
    I fear the ID card in the long run... I have not, am not, nor ever will be abusing the system so stop making statements like that which you evidently know nothing about.

    People can use their passport or drivers licence... do you know ANYBODY who doesn't have one of those? They're certainly in the minority. It would be quite easy for them to prove they've never had one nor did they ever want one. And those people have to be exempt or simply get something signed in their garda station with their pic saying who they are. There's no need to start getting all carried away and suggesting we all need national ID cards :rolleyes: Just as a matter of interest, what information would YOU have on those ID cards?

    For the record - I have NEVER stated ANYWHERE that you are or will be "abusing the system" - LETS MAKE THAT CLEAR HERE RIGHT NOW!

    I am AGREEING WITH YOU!!!

    For those without passports - and there is many - a photo ID card which might be available or made available at your nearest Garda station (or through it) might help this situation though.


  • #63
    Duck's hoop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,530 ✭✭✭Duck's hoop


    Biggins wrote: »
    To start mentioning "Totalitarianism" though is just jumping too far ahead by any standards though!

    As it is, for this current topic, it a step too far to grasp at.

    I know what you're saying BUT... I don't think it is really.


  • #64
    Heineken Helen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 636 ✭✭✭Heineken Helen


    Biggins wrote: »
    For the record - I have NEVER stated ANYWHERE that you are or will be "abusing the system" - LETS MAKE THAT CLEAR HERE RIGHT NOW!

    I am AGREEING WITH YOU!!!

    For those without passports - and there is many - a photo ID card which might be available or made available at your nearest Garda station (or through it) might help this situation though.

    Thank you... but you did suggest that anyone fearing the Id cards has something to hide or is abusing the system. I fear them and I fall into neither of those categories. I know you didn't mean me personally but I felt you were insinuating it... apologies if I'm wrong.

    There are many with NEITHER passport NOR drivers licence? I doubt it... and I'm simply judging by the number of people I know who have NEVER left the country (even to England), as they would have needed one of the above to do so, and I can genuinely not think of any. So I'm guessing they're a small small minority.


  • #65
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Duck's hoop wrote: »
    I know what you're saying BUT... I don't think it is really.

    It really is a side topic and to a great deal/extent I agree with you (more than you know) but just for this current topic and the point at which it is at, its a jump too far ahead for some to make sense of.

    (..again, not saying I totally disagree with you)


  • #66
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Heineken Helen wrote: »
    Thank you... but you did suggest that anyone fearing the Id cards has something to hide or is abusing the system. I fear them and I fall into neither of those categories. I know you didn't mean me personally but I felt you were insinuating it... apologies if I'm wrong.

    There are many with NEITHER passport NOR drivers licence? I doubt it... and I'm simply judging by the number of people I know who have NEVER left the country (even to England), as they would have needed one of the above to do so, and I can genuinely not think of any. So I'm guessing they're a small small minority.

    No apologies need from yourself. That was indeed my previous bad phrasing.
    What I was trying to state in my own daft way, was that those that might fear most, might be a small minority number, those that are setting out to defraud the state.
    Others who are legit with the claims might also welcome the extra form of security.
    I know of a number of cases where genuine honest people have applied for payments only later to discover that others are using their names and having such payments given to them instead.
    I know of such cases both here and in England (English sister-in-law is one).

    Clearly, at the moment with the current state of technology, we should be utilising such newer methods, to help cut down on fraudsters.
    I don't think any honest people will disagree.
    The only thing we all might disagree on, is how to do it.
    ...thus this current discussion.


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  • #67
    Duck's hoop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,530 ✭✭✭Duck's hoop


    Biggins wrote: »
    (..again, not saying I totally disagree with you)

    I feel ya, brother. :D


    Getting back to the original observation, more specifically, I still think that
    if you look at the savings made, or whatever, it's a huge price to pay for erosion of civil liberties.

    I actually think, as paranoid as you might think this is, that it's a cheap 'in' on their behalf.


  • #68
    Heineken Helen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 636 ✭✭✭Heineken Helen


    Biggins wrote: »
    No apologies need from yourself. That was indeed my previous bad phrasing.
    What I was trying to state in my own daft way, was that those that might fear most, might be those that are setting out to defraud the state.
    Others who are legit with the claims might also welcome the extra form of security.
    I know of a number of cases where genuine honest people have applied for payments only later to discover that others are using their names and having such payments given to them instead.
    I know of such cases both here and in England (English sister-in-law is one).

    Oh I KNOW there is plenty of benefit fraud going on and I KNOW it's something that needs to be tackled... but they need to be careful to do so in such a way that doesn't stigmatise the needy in our society or threaten privacy or our freedom in any way. VERY few people want to be on the dole... it can be pretty demoralising and it CAN make you feel like a lesser part of society. A card only issued to only those people is not a good move IMO.

    There are so many threads on boards.ie already going on about scroungers and people on welfare smoking and stuff like that. It's now acceptable to chastise us and recommend invasions into our daily life and even suggesting that we should only spend our money on stuff recommended by THEM... I'm not accusing you of any of this but it's just getting a little bit scary as to what the 'better' people in society will agree is acceptable for us... and there are many of us already chastising ourselves... no need for everyone to gang up on us now :o .


  • #69
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Duck's hoop wrote: »
    I feel ya, brother. :D


    Getting back to the original observation, more specifically, I still think that
    if you look at the savings made, or whatever, it's a huge price to pay for erosion of civil liberties.

    Just for clarification, might someone suggest the direct civil liberties that could be effected (in a bad way) by the introduction of such an ID card?
    Not saying civil liberties won't be effected. Just wondering what the specific areas might be and how they would effect our daily lives on a practicable level.


  • #70
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Heineken Helen wrote: »
    Oh I KNOW there is plenty of benefit fraud going on... etc

    Side topic: For the record, I have been on the dole/stamp benefits at one stage.
    Been there, done that, got off it and so far still off it - "touch wood" :)

    I personally HATE those that automatically assume that because your on the dole, you must be a scrounger.
    That for me is plainly wrong! No ifs, no buts...

    At this stage of economic affairs - its a case of "there but for the grace of god goes I..."
    Those that are currently doing the 'knocking' had better be careful.
    They could be 'knocking' today - and knocking on the dole doors next week!


  • #71
    PurpleBerry
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,006 ✭✭✭PurpleBerry


    Where does this leave people who are not able to arrange ID?

    For example, when the gardai refuse to sign a National ID card form because you don't have a passport and refuse to sign a passport form because you don't have any other ID?


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  • #72
    Duck's hoop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,530 ✭✭✭Duck's hoop


    Biggins wrote: »
    Just wondering what the specific areas might be and how they would effect our daily lives on a practicable level.

    Let's say it is passed into law that a citizen of the state may not appear in public without their ID card.

    If this was to be taken seriously as a real stipulation of being a citizen of the state, then regular checks would be the order of the day. Every day.

    You wear out one pair of keks on a Friday night, and throw on a different pair on Saturday (unlikely in my own case), omitting the ID, get stopped and boiiix. Gulag.


  • #73
    Heineken Helen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 636 ✭✭✭Heineken Helen


    Biggins wrote: »
    Side topic: For the record, I have been on the dole/stamp benefits at one stage.
    Been there, done that, got off it and so far still off it - "touch wood" :)

    I personally HATE those that automatically assume that because your on the dole, you must be a scrounger.
    That for me is plainly wrong! No ifs, no buts...

    At this stage of economic affairs - its a case of "there but for the grace of god goes I..."
    Those that are currently doing the 'knocking' had better be careful.
    They could be 'knocking' today - and knocking on the dole doors next week!

    Thank you :p and for the record, I've done well to not wish it on ANY of them... it's just that bad.

    Unfortunately though there ARE those who make the rest of us look bad and give those people the amunition to knock us all. But I don't think we should all have one rule from the rest of the people because of those :o


  • #74
    PurpleBerry
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,006 ✭✭✭PurpleBerry


    Heineken Helen wrote: »
    And those people have to be exempt or simply get something signed in their garda station with their pic saying who they are.

    Like an ML10? These are very often refused as ID. I've had many an arguement over this, informing people that yes, they can take it as proof of ID.


  • #75
    Heineken Helen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 636 ✭✭✭Heineken Helen


    PurpleBerry wrote: »
    Where does this leave people who are not able to arrange ID?

    For example, when the gardai refuse to sign a National ID card form because you don't have a passport and refuse to sign a passport form because you don't have any other ID?
    http://www.dfa.ie/home/index.aspx?id=254

    'If born in Ireland on or before 31 December 2004 -
    and applying for your first Irish passport or renewing your passport if under 18 years of age – you require to submit the long form of your Irish State birth certificate which shows the names of your parents. If you are renewing your passport and are over 18 years of age you only need to submit your expired passport. '

    It's easy to get your birth cert if you don't have one.


  • #76
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    I know now that some banks are now introducing credit cards with a persons picture on them.
    I'm assuming that other areas of business and definately security is thinking along the same lines.
    Personally, I think, its the 'thin end of the wedge' and sooner or later, first by business and/or by government section increasing decree, we will by ten years time, see such ID also become mainstream on our streets.


  • #77
    Duck's hoop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,530 ✭✭✭Duck's hoop


    Heineken Helen wrote: »
    It's easy to get your birth cert if you don't have one.

    And just as easy to get someone else's.

    God bless Ireland.


  • #78
    Heineken Helen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 636 ✭✭✭Heineken Helen


    PurpleBerry wrote: »
    Like an ML10? These are very often refused as ID. I've had many an arguement over this, informing people that yes, they can take it as proof of ID.

    well the post office and the welfare people will have a list of stuff they can accept... and they'll HAVE to take them.


  • #79
    Heineken Helen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 636 ✭✭✭Heineken Helen


    Biggins wrote: »
    I know now that some banks are now introducing credit cards with a persons picture on them.
    I'm assuming that other areas of business and definately security is thinking along the same lines.
    Personally, I think, its the 'thin end of the wedge' and sooner or later, first by business and/or by government section increasing decree, we will by ten years time, see such ID also become mainstream on our streets.

    Are they? I didn't hear about that. Or do you mean the credit cards where you can pick what picture you want to put on it?


  • #80
    PurpleBerry
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,006 ✭✭✭PurpleBerry


    Heineken Helen wrote: »
    http://www.dfa.ie/home/index.aspx?id=254

    'If born in Ireland on or before 31 December 2004 -
    and applying for your first Irish passport or renewing your passport if under 18 years of age – you require to submit the long form of your Irish State birth certificate which shows the names of your parents. If you are renewing your passport and are over 18 years of age you only need to submit your expired passport. '

    It's easy to get your birth cert if you don't have one.

    Thank you Heineken Helen. But I've tried to get a passport. There is a part of the form that the gardai have to sign and they refused to sign mine because I didn't have any ID and "could be anyone".

    So I asked for the forms to obtain a National ID Card and they said that they wouldn't be able to arrange one of them for me either as I didn't have any photo ID. I would need some form of photo ID in order to arrange a passport or a National ID card. The ML10 didn't cut it. I don't know what I'm going to do.


  • #81
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Heineken Helen wrote: »
    well the post office and the welfare people will have a list of stuff they can accept... and they'll HAVE to take them.

    Yep, as far as I know under current regulations, if you have a FULL birth cert and proofs of residence (bills), etc you stand a good chance.
    Anyone is free to correct this Biggins muppet if wrong. :D


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  • #82
    Heineken Helen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 636 ✭✭✭Heineken Helen


    PurpleBerry wrote: »
    Thank you Heineken Helen. But I've tried to get a passport. There is a part of the form that the gardai have to sign and they refused to sign mine because I didn't have any ID and "could be anyone".

    So I asked for the forms to obtain a National ID Card and they said that they wouldn't be able to arrange one of them for me either as I didn't have any photo ID. I would need some form of photo ID in order to arrange a passport or a National ID card. The ML10 didn't cut it. I don't know what I'm going to do.

    There are guidelines to follow if it's your first passport... if you've followed them and the Gardai still refuse to co-operate, perhaps go to your local TD. It's probably just that simple to sort it out. Or explain your situation or ask them exactly what they want from you.


  • #83
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 1,211 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Instead of ID's, maybe they could use as system where when applying for benefit, a picture is taken, digitally as a jpeg and placed in the system with the application.

    When a person uses there card in the post office, the image appears on cashiers screen when it is swiped.

    It can take out the Driver's License, Passport out of the picture.

    I know a new system would have to be installed.


  • #84
    PurpleBerry
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,006 ✭✭✭PurpleBerry


    Heineken Helen wrote: »
    There are guidelines to follow if it's your first passport... if you've followed them and the Gardai still refuse to co-operate, perhaps go to your local TD. It's probably just that simple to sort it out.

    Thanks, I'll try again soon and see what they say. At least I'll be okay for collecting welfare. It looks like it'll take a few months to sort out a passport, if I can get it sorted.


  • #85
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    NoDrama wrote: »
    Instead of ID's, maybe they could use as system where when applying for benefit, a picture is taken, digitally as a jpeg and placed in the system with the application.

    When a person uses there card in the post office, the image appears on cashiers screen when it is swiped.

    It can take out the Driver's License, Passport out of the picture.

    I know a new system would have to be installed.

    Not necessarily if your taking about just additional networks. A business partner and myself installed a security system into a cresh. Long story short - each parent had a photo ID card that could be swiped into a pc using an external card reader.
    Up on screen came a similar picture of the person in front of the desk (as well as other medical/security/password needs/requirements/data only viewable by trusted and cleared staff).
    If the pics didn't match, they weren't getting in/out (the desk was positioned between two doors in a security based corridor).
    Whats involved in additional software, a database and card reader for inputting the data from the card.


  • #86
    Heineken Helen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 636 ✭✭✭Heineken Helen


    Biggins wrote: »
    Not necessarily if your taking about just additional networks. A business partner and myself installed a security system into a cresh. Long story short - each parent had a photo ID card that could be swiped into a pc using an external card reader.
    Up on screen came a similar picture of the person in front of the desk (as well as other medical/security/password needs/requirements/data only viewable by trusted and cleared staff).
    If the pics didn't match, they weren't getting in/out (the desk was positioned between two doors in a security based corridor).
    Whats involved in additional software, a database and card reader for inputting the data from the card.

    It seems much easier and cheaper to just take a photo of each applicant and have it on their file :o rather than having to issue them all with a card with this info also. It's unlikely people on welfare would be paying for that and there's hundreds of thousands... a simple passport style picture just seems like an easier answer.


  • #87
    Heineken Helen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 636 ✭✭✭Heineken Helen


    PurpleBerry wrote: »
    Thanks, I'll try again soon and see what they say. At least I'll be okay for collecting welfare. It looks like it'll take a few months to sort out a passport, if I can get it sorted.

    Of course you can... just stop taking no for an answer ;) If somebody says no, ask them why and ask them what you need to do next. Don't leave til they tell you. Or read that website I sent you to... it lists all the requirements... refer the garda to that website and say you've done everything you're supposed to do.


  • #88
    serenity13
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8 ✭serenity13


    its about time this was introduced. i work in a local office and the amount of social services swipe cards that the post chief brings across to us is unreal. hate to sound bad but most are foreign nationals. they can travel here on either a passport or an id card so im sure will work out a way to leave one of these behind for a friend to collect for them. their signatures not very legitimate (for example mite be a capital B and a squiggle after it) and would seem pretty easy to copy (though the ones returned to us where really bad!!) i think whatever I.D. used to enter the country should be the one they use to collect payments.. thats also why i think I.D. cards are bad form of a way to travel to another country it should be passports end off!!

    afterall the unemployment amount here is better than a weeks wages working in an eastern european country so they better off claiming it here. it would be like winning a mini lotto if they had friends collecting payment and depositing it to accounts. the uk dont have this problem because their benefit system exhausts after 6 months and rate is not as high as here.. As far as i am aware ireland is the only country with this huge fraud problem. Most others have stringent rules and have not yet "opened the gates" so to speak for people to come in (though under eu rules i think allowed). In Denmark people must pay to enter the social welfare system so that prob explains why little ireland with its 4 million population was a better opportunity to enter for people coming from populations of 14million.
    think its terrible that because of this high fraud rate that the genuine workers who have worked all their lives and now face a sudden redundancy must now collect in a post office instead of their bank account. they suffer because of other people frauding the system. im do not mean to sound like i am discriminating against Polish or eastern european people (im sure many irish doing it too!) i like the Polish very much find them very pleasant but the foreign nationals abusing the system is not on especially now we are in such a crisis.

    my only concern would be for the postal staff clerical officers the reprecussions they might get if they dont pay out. afterall its money dealing with in hard times.

    a boost for the government though will be that lots of people will now be applying for passports who generally never had before so will income that way to the economy. canny move that way!


  • #89
    Duck's hoop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,530 ✭✭✭Duck's hoop


    Biggins wrote: »
    Not necessarily. A business partner and myself installed a security system into a cresh. Long story short - each parent had a photo ID card that could be swiped into a pc using an external card reader.
    Up on screen came a similar picture of the person in front of the desk (as well as other medical/security/password needs/requirements/data only viewable by trusted and cleared staff).
    If the pics didn't match, they weren't getting in/out (the desk was positioned between two doors in a security based corridor).
    Whats involved in additional software, a database and card reader for inputting the data from the card.

    What ever happened to knowing people and community and all that?

    Is faceless securaucracy hastening our descent into blahdyyouknowtherest?


  • #90
    The Saint
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,932 ✭✭✭The Saint


    I don't really see the issue with this. There is no need for a new national ID card with all your information on it as has been proposed or is in place in other countries. No need for gulags or concentration camps.

    A passport (who surely most people have by now), a drivers licence or a guarda age card should suffice. I've heard the age cards are a bit crap but surely they could just be made more secure or tamper proof. People entitled to welfare could also be provided with a passport for a reduced cost to ensure they have valid ID as well as getting a very useful document.

    I don't see how showing ID to obtain something your entitled to from the state to avoid fraud can be a bad thing. When I get a parcel sent to a post office I have to bring a valid form of ID to collect it. Its common sense. It stops someone who isn't entitled to my parcel to go in and say they are me.

    The country is broke and we need to save money where ever we can. If this helps then I think it is a good thing. People should not be ripping off the state as this money could be put to much better use in other areas.


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  • #91
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Heineken Helen wrote: »
    It seems much easier and cheaper to just take a photo of each applicant and have it on their file :o rather than having to issue them all with a card with this info also. It's unlikely people on welfare would be paying for that and there's hundreds of thousands... a simple passport style picture just seems like an easier answer.


    In our particular case, the software was specifically written for the cresh.
    Some of the variables was that it was high speed flow of movement at most times (as well as other specific data items). The only hold up would be on the rare security concern in relation to children.
    Initially at the very start of application to the cresh (I'm being careful here with details) certain procedures had to be fulfilled. This was time consuming but once they were done the first time and then these photo-cards allowed much faster service there on in...

    The customer didn't want to be going to a filing system every time they needed to be sure of visual identity verification.


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