Photo to be needed to collect welfare

redout

Photo ID is to be required in future for collecting welfare payments at Post Offices.

The Department of Social & Family affairs said in a statement that more than 10% of Social Welfare claimants investigated in a targeted spot check have had their payments suspended.

The Department said the vast majority of those whose payments were suspended were non-Irish nationals.



The Department is introducing stricter identity checks in Post Offices throughout the country for people collecting Social Welfare payments.
Minister Mary Hanafin said tighter security checks were necessary as part of the crackdown on those claiming a jobseeker payment but not resident in the state.

'People legitimately collecting a social welfare payment should be able to produce valid photographic ID, such as a Driving Licence, Passport or National Identity card. Staff working in Post Offices have to be satisfied that they are giving the right payment to the right person,' she said.

Notices will be displayed in all post offices throughout the country in the coming weeks advising customers collecting social welfare payments such as Jobseekers, One Parent Family Payment, Back to Work or Child Benefit payments that they must be able to produce a valid ID to collect their payment.

All claimants should be able to produce valid photographic ID when collecting a payment.

Minister Hanafin also outlined preliminary results of particular fraud investigations in eight areas of the country which have been ongoing since the start of March.

Over 2,200 claimants were investigated, through house visits or mailshot. Of those some 275 have had their claims suspended and are no longer entitled to claim a benefit from the State or are under continuing investigation.

The potential savings from stopping these claims alone would be in region of €2m-3m.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0406/welfare.html

Shocker ! Its about bloody time.

Snowie

its a good idea me thinks

Boskowski

redout wrote: »

The potential savings from stopping these claims alone would be in region of €2m-3m.

...a week?

redout

realcam wrote: »

...a week?

I reckon that must be a year because they are only talking about 275 people.

Milky Moo

It seems like common sense to do this all along!
why did it take until now to come up with this idea?

Boskowski

redout wrote: »

I reckon that must be a year because they are only talking about 275 people.

Ye, 275 out of a spot checked 2200 people. that's more than 10%. If that figure was representative the savings must be a lot more than 2-3 million.

But I reckon you're right, they saved 2-3 million just from that spot check, from those 275 people, that's what the article was trying to say.

Noopti

Milky Moo wrote: »

It seems like common sense to do this all along!
why did it take until now to come up with this idea?

Agreed! Why in Gods name are they only requiring I.D now? I thought that it would have been a given.

Gone Drinking

Milky Moo wrote: »

why did it take until now to come up with this idea?

Because we live in Ireland?

old boy

some one i know went to sign on recently, and had to produce their passport plus a domestic bill. it is not before time.

Milky Moo

Gone Drinking wrote: »

Because we live in Ireland?

Ah it all becomes clear now!

astrofool

I find it amazing that they are moving to reassure people that if the post office knows them, that they still won't be asked for ID.

People go once a week to a building and get free money. Looking for an ID should be the absolute minimum required in order to do this.

Run_to_da_hills

Good excuse for the Government to introduce the National ID.

useful_contacts

realcam wrote: »

Ye, 275 out of a spot checked 2200 people. that's more than 10%. If that figure was representative the savings must be a lot more than 2-3 million.

But I reckon you're right, they saved 2-3 million just from that spot check, from those 275 people, that's what the article was trying to say.

why dont they just have a cam take a pic of you at the counter and then when you collect your money look at it to make sure its you (a la credit union)

But im all for this!

themadchef

It's a great idea, it's shocking though that you never need I.D before this. I think that figure is going to be huge by the end of the year.

Sam Vimes

useful_contacts wrote: »

why dont they just have a cam take a pic of you at the counter and then when you collect your money look at it to make sure its you (a la credit union)

But im all for this!

Don't be ridiculous. That would make far too much sense

patmac

The minister was on the RTE this morning saying that the main culprits were foreign nationals and these were the people that were to be taregeted as the local biddy down the Post Office wouldn't be familiar with them.
Here comes the science bit: if it's 1 in 10 of all claimants, and foreign nationalists are the main culprits and they say for instance make up 20% of all claimants, then that means 1 in 2 of all foreign national claims are fraudulent. Of course these figures might be bollix but it seems staggeringly high and extremely lapse on the government not to ask for ID.

trailerparkboy

patmac wrote: »

The minister was on the RTE this morning saying that the main culprits were foreign nationals and these were the people that were to be taregeted as the local biddy down the Post Office wouldn't be familiar with them.
Here comes the science bit: if it's 1 in 10 of all claimants, and foreign nationalists are the main culprits and they say for instance make up 20% of all claimants, then that means 1 in 2 of all foreign national claims are fraudulent. Of course these figures might be bollix but it seems staggeringly high and extremely lapse on the government not to ask for ID.

Surely this cant be right, everybody knows that non Irish nationals would never con the social welfare system, never cause any crime , i find this report very hard to believe, i think the goverment are just picking on the poor non nationals.

useful_contacts

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Don't be ridiculous. That would make far too much sense

OH I KNOW:rolleyes:

(btw cred union pics just AWFUL- they caught me in mid sneeze- the ceann on me-- oh the humanity)

Lollipops23

i know i'm gonna sound thick, but how does producing ID help weed out fraudulent claims?are people prentending to be others so as to collect their money?surely if i'm pretending to be a single parent when i'm not,producing my passport won't help get me caught...?

Heineken Helen

Gone Drinking wrote: »

Because we live in Ireland?

I don't have to produce ID in England to sign on... and the money's paid into my bank account

patmac

Lollipops23 wrote: »

i know i'm gonna sound thick, but how does producing ID help weed out fraudulent claims?are people prentending to be others so as to collect their money?surely if i'm pretending to be a single parent when i'm not,producing my passport won't help get me caught...?

You'd have to produce a passport and utility bill of the child as well.

Probably more to with multiple claims than anything.

Duiske

astrofool wrote: »

People go once a week to a building and get free money.

Is it possible that some, just a few, of the 1,000's laid off recently were paying something called PRSI ?

Capt'n Midnight

Heineken Helen wrote: »

I don't have to produce ID in England to sign on... and the money's paid into my bank account

that's no longer an option here

really supprising that you don't need photo ID for social services card
you've needed it for ID for Dublin bus tickets since the early 1980's

K-9

patmac wrote: »

The minister was on the RTE this morning saying that the main culprits were foreign nationals and these were the people that were to be taregeted as the local biddy down the Post Office wouldn't be familiar with them.
Here comes the science bit: if it's 1 in 10 of all claimants, and foreign nationalists are the main culprits and they say for instance make up 20% of all claimants, then that means 1 in 2 of all foreign national claims are fraudulent. Of course these figures might be bollix but it seems staggeringly high and extremely lapse on the government not to ask for ID.

In border areas, I'd say it isn't far of. Damn Northern Ireland spongers!

Biggins

I personally look forwards to the day when fingerprint ID scanners are introduced at such collection points as well.
I would also introduce these small scanners at Irish airports making everyone entering having to scan their fingerprints into it as well.

Amalgamate both fingerprint databases and what you get is a MUCH clearer way also to stop/spot any supposed monthly in-flights by scammers as their frequency at flying in coincides with payouts within a day or two!

~ It's not rocket science for crying out loud!

shenanigans1982

I suppose someone should have copped on when the majority of foreign claims were by Prawo Jazdy.

marcsignal

It's a good idea, but a National ID Card with photo, to cover everything, would have helped solve this too. Carrying such a card wouldn't bother me, but how many others posting would be prepared to carry one ?

Biggins

marcsignal wrote: »

It's a good idea, but a National ID Card with photo, to cover everything, would have helped solve this too. Carrying such a card wouldn't bother me, but how many others posting would be prepared to carry one ?

If your determined to defraud the state consistently, such ID's can and I'm guessing, do be faked.
That AND fingerprint ID and a whole community of scammers would be up the creek more so big time.

marcsignal

Biggins wrote: »

If your determined to defraud the state consistently, such ID's can and I'm guessing, do be faked.
That AND fingerprint ID and a whole community of scammers would be up the creek more so big time.

Good point. Retinal scanning is another possibility. I had my pic taken leaving Heathrow last month using one of those cameras. It was a little unnerving, but I can see how it's necessary to stay a step ahead of scammers.

More spot checks on peoples adresses too would catch a few out.

Carawaystick

cost's 88 euros to get a passport and a bit more to get a car to do a driving test which you might fail and another fifteen lids for the license - 40% of a weeks income there..... plus the waiting times to get them renewed - what do you do then?


Of course no-one could fly to Belfast or Derry abd completely bypass your magic stazi system Biggins....

Biggins

Carawaystick wrote: »

cost's 88 euros to get a passport and a bit more to get a car to do a driving test which you might fail and another fifteen lids for the license - 40% of a weeks income there..... plus the waiting times to get them renewed - what do you do then?

If your wanting to get state benefits, surely a person should be willing to secure their own payments by obtaining a more secure form of ID?
(- as regards the cost, what if a euro or two at most was deducted every few weeks from benefit payments? If a person can gripe about that and still soon pay (JUST as an example) a tenner for a pack of cancer sticks A DAY, where is their priorities?).

Carawaystick wrote: »

Of course no-one could fly to Belfast or Derry abd completely bypass your magic stazi system Biggins....

..and what in hell is stopping other countries from doing same?
At the very least Northern Ireland airports can adopt the same system.
Sooner or later, like it or not, they will. What America does this year, Europe does most of the time sooner or later as catch-up!

Such a system as I've suggested would also help stop greatly, cross-border dole scamming also by the way and as regards money lost, in the first year or two alone, such set-up costs would be reclaimed!

Whats so stazi about it?
Your proving your own ID...
No one else can get your payments as easy through fraud...
You can further prove that any false claims by authorities are in turn, baseless...

If one is only getting what they are entitled to, they have nothing to fear!
Scammers will find bigger objection to the adoption of such a system and its easy to see why.

Heineken Helen

It's times like this when people support stricter laws imposed on invading our privacy. You should all be very careful about what you're suggesting/supporting. Once this kinda talk starts they'll think 'here's our chance'

And yes Biggins well said... either make them starve or make them give up a piece of themselves... tough choice :rolleyes:

Carawaystick

Most of the newly unemployed have paid their social insurance for a long while, and are entitled to collect jobseekers benefit.
You didn't answer my point what does a person do if the passport office is renewing their passport for a couple of weeks?

The stazi comment is fingerprinting everyone entering the country. post up your fingerprints if you think it's a good idea.

Why would foreign countries fingerprint everyone entering them to help cut down welfare fraud here?

How many EU regulations would merging the two fingerprint databases break, let alone how long before some of the data leaked? especially as you're now involving the british government.

Maybe if the govt focused more on tax dodging instead of making life hard for the vast majority of law abiding citizens instead, they'd get a better return for the same investment of scarce resources.

welfare fraud is in the hapenny place to tax evasion scams, and no-one goes to jail for tax dodging.

RedXIV

in fairness though, if they could even bring in the photo ID to collect SW, it'd still make a difference.

I understand the whole idea about having privacy invaded but lets face it, if you want help off the state, they are entitled to ask you to prove you need it and if introducing photo ID was to get rid of 10% of social welfare pay out in the form of scammers as these figures suggest, i think it would be pretty crazy not to enforce it

Hagar

I'm not 100% convinced photo ID will be as effective as the Govt. think.
It was tried and failed in Liverpool. Link.

Biggins

Carawaystick wrote: »

Most of the newly unemployed have paid their social insurance for a long while, and are entitled to collect jobseekers benefit.
You didn't answer my point what does a person do if the passport office is renewing their passport for a couple of weeks?

Maybe get an official stamped document from a social welfare office that is time stamped and limited for a specific period
- valid only for 2/3 weeks? Just long enough to get the updated photo-card id? (but not long enough and worthwhile for scammers to fake in fraudulence)

Carawaystick wrote: »

Why would foreign countries fingerprint everyone entering them to help cut down welfare fraud here?

• Maybe so that they could stop the rest of their more law abiding citizens getting a bad name due to a bad few rotten apples?
• Maybe so that they can trace their own home-brewed criminals (if only to see if they break those rules/laws, what else might they be breaking?)

Carawaystick wrote: »

How many EU regulations would merging the two fingerprint databases break, let alone how long before some of the data leaked? especially as you're now involving the British government.

Aaa I don't know - hang on - I'll ask the people at Interpol for example!

Carawaystick wrote: »

Maybe if the govt focused more on tax dodging instead of making life hard for the vast majority of law abiding citizens instead, they'd get a better return for the same investment of scarce resources.

welfare fraud is in the hapenny place to tax evasion scams, and no-one goes to jail for tax dodging.

I won't/can't dispute that welfare fraud is minor compared to any possible ongoing tax fraud.
However all forms of investigation of frauds have to start somewhere and as €530m to €540 million is estimated to be saved immediately by such as the introduction of photo ID at post offices- that makes is a hell of a "hapenny" to save!
Image what we could save if things were tightened more?
Maybe we could actually then subsequently afford those early cancer inoculations for all school girls - and thats just for starters!

At the end of the day its not a case of if it will happen - but when and to what degree.
We might be playing catch-up but we better get used to the idea of this further ID method coming.
That's technology and the inevitable coming together.

Duck's hoop

Biggins wrote: »

That AND fingerprint ID and a whole community of scammers would be up the creek more so big time.

Fuggit, tatoo the barcode on now.

Biggins

Duck's hoop wrote: »

Fuggit, tatoo the barcode on now.

Naa, I prefer the ID chip inserted under the skin!
(Further details as probably available via RTDH lol)

Heineken Helen

RedXIV wrote: »

in fairness though, if they could even bring in the photo ID to collect SW, it'd still make a difference.

I understand the whole idea about having privacy invaded but lets face it, if you want help off the state, they are entitled to ask you to prove you need it and if introducing photo ID was to get rid of 10% of social welfare pay out in the form of scammers as these figures suggest, i think it would be pretty crazy not to enforce it

There should be no BUT in that statement. They always use these powers against the weakest in society first... at the mo, that's people on welfare. Stigmatise them and everyone will agree with these measures.

I can't believe everyone's seriously suggesting this.

RedXIV

Heineken Helen wrote: »

There should be no BUT in that statement. They always use these powers against the weakest in society first... at the mo, that's people on welfare. Stigmatise them and everyone will agree with these measures.

I can't believe everyone's seriously suggesting this.

*shrug* i know more people taking the piss with the dole than genuinely need it. And i know most of the piss takers have the chance to get jobs but don't because they are lazy. Its pretty vexing to watch that constantly happening so i think the dole is a good place to start when it comes to stopping fraud. Besides, any one that genuinely needs the benefits will still get them.

It's only an ID card, you'd swear its a ticking time bomb

Heineken Helen

RedXIV wrote: »

*shrug* i know more people taking the piss with the dole than genuinely need it. And i know most of the piss takers have the chance to get jobs but don't because they are lazy. Its pretty vexing to watch that constantly happening so i think the dole is a good place to start when it comes to stopping fraud. Besides, any one that genuinely needs the benefits will still get them.

It's only an ID card, you'd swear its a ticking time bomb

the dole's always a good place to start :rolleyes:

We saw how great the ID cards were in Rwanda.

RedXIV

Heineken Helen wrote: »

the dole's always a good place to start :rolleyes:

We saw how great the ID cards were in Rwanda.

We didn't START with the dole, we're tackling it NOW, there's a bit of a difference

I didn't see how they affected Rwanda but i'll go have a look now

But in my mind, you'd only protest against something like this if you have something to hide?

redout

Id cards are mandatory in Spain and you cant do fuk all without one if your a Spanish national. Its needed for practically everything government related and even for credit card purchases. Its mandatory to carry the card on your person at all times from the age of 14. Having lived here for a few years I really dont see the thing as a hindrance. Its just an extra card to stick in your wallet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_document#Spain

Heineken Helen

RedXIV wrote: »

We didn't START with the dole, we're tackling it NOW, there's a bit of a difference

I didn't see how they affected Rwanda but i'll go have a look now

But in my mind, you'd only protest against something like this if you have something to hide?

If I had anything to hide do you think I'd be publicly against it? That's a lazy argument.

In Rwanda ID cards were used to commit genocide... as in that other famous story we all know about.

RedXIV

Heineken Helen wrote: »

If I had anything to hide do you think I'd be publicly against it? That's a lazy argument.

In Rwanda ID cards were used to commit genocide... as in that other famous story we all know about.

but still a valid point. if you're against something this simple which should, in theory, prevent people taking the piss of our welfare system, one would wonder why? If you supported the idea of cleaning up the system, then i would have expected an ammendment to the idea or suggestion to better it. Not to abolish it completely.

Not that i think you genuninely are but for arguments sake.

Fair enough, in Rwanda it was bad, as pointed out above, in Spain it worked? so we're back to square one?

javaboy

Please confine talk of ID cards being the antichrist or leading to genocide to the conspiracy theories forum.

Duck's hoop

RedXIV wrote: »

But in my mind, you'd only protest against something like this if you have something to hide?

Benevolent dictator.

Heineken Helen

javaboy wrote: »

Please confine talk of ID cards being the antichrist or leading to genocide to the conspiracy theories forum.

Is it still ok for others to suggest bringing them in as a good idea? That's a bit of a onesided thread

RedXIV

Heineken Helen wrote: »

Is it still ok for others to suggest bringing them in as a good idea? That's a bit of a onesided thread

I was enjoying this debate too

Duck's hoop wrote: »

Benevolent dictator.

I just think it's a good idea that deserves attention, why get defensive over something designed to stop felons?

stepbar

I only hope that this doesn't make thing hard for old pensioners who have family members collect their entitlements. My granny is 94 and is not really fit to be going into town every week to collect her pension so my Mum does it for her. Now they both live down the country and TBH I wouldn't see any reason why they wouldn't give the money out to my Mum. I only hope they don't become pedantic about it and use a bit of common sense.

Biggins

Heineken Helen wrote: »

...In Rwanda ID cards were used to commit genocide... as in that other famous story we all know about.

If it wasn't id card, it would have been birth certs, if it wasn't birth certs it might have been by locally collected known information and so on....
Thats no reason to just knock ID cards completely for the rest of the world, just because some (vast minority in number) country abused its own system.

End of the day - those that are afraid of being found out, will fear the introduction of these cards the most.
To the rest of us, its an extra form of security that we can stick in our wallet and actually prove whom we are and that we are not a security concern, a possible fraud case, etc.