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Holocaust Denial - what do you make of it?

135

Comments

  • #62
    Gummy Panda
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,919 ✭✭✭✭Gummy Panda


    I'm confused. Is this 6 million figure suppose to be from the camps alone or does it include the ghettos, the death squads hunting jews not caught yet, the trains to camps, etc that happen during the occuption of europe?


  • #63
    jim o doom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,474 ✭✭✭jim o doom


    Degsy wrote: »
    My problem is with the figures AND the fact that the war seems to have been highjacked by the jews in order to gain preferential treatment ie Israel.

    Yeah but the jews didnt "fight" in the war - it was ethnic cleansing - on whatever scale you choose to believe.

    There were a lot of innocents killed during bombing raids etc, but they were not intentionally moved to camps and exterminated and experimented on one by one.

    the average soldier was not operated upon whilst alive and screaming under no anaestesia.
    The average bombed civillian did NOT have their skin used to make a "lamp" or some nice human hand "gloves" nor have their skin chopped off as they had an "interesting tattoo" that could be put in a frame.

    I know political prisoners went in the camps, I know homosexuals went in the camps & I know jews went in the camps. War and forethought extermination, torture, experimentation and ethnic cleansing are NOT the same thing - one (in my mind at least) is INHERINTLY more evil.


  • #64
    Cianos
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,850 ✭✭✭Cianos


    Winters wrote: »
    And there is hard evidence against all religions authenticity. So why should people adhere to the hard evidence for the mass extermination of Jews/Blacks/Gays/Political Opponents/etc. under the Nazis and not the evidence against religions?

    Nobody should be able to pick and choose which evidence is acceptable to believe in and which one can be brushed aside. You either let people believe in what they want or you don't. The people who died (my relations included) in fighting in ww2 fought for the former; so people can believe in what they want, so people can say what they want without being censored and squashed.

    Let people believe what they want, but educate them so they can make an informed decision on the matter. The only time anyone should be stopped from voicing their opinion is not if it hurts the feelings of others but if violence is being used.

    Let people mock Mohammed, let people mock Atheists, let people mock the Irish, let people mock the polish. But violence is where feet need to be put down and stopped. Denying the holocaust is not causing anyone any harm, they are not the ones bulldozing homes and shooting civilians and blowing themselves up.

    It's illegal in Germany, because it is a direct lead to racial hatred which is a direct lead to violence. Of course any individual German can believe what they want, no matter how taboo. But 'preaching' the denial of the holocaust is an attempt to recruit people to a fascist way of thinking.

    Ideally anyone should be able to say anything they want to whoever they want. But practically speaking, if it causes more suffering by allowing it to happen then I can understand why it is outlawed.


  • #65
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 4,183 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Degsy wrote: »
    I'm not siding with anybody.
    I'm merely stating that in my opinion ther Second World War was an event in which huge numbers of people of ALL races were killed and that for some reason,not just jews.
    I further think that figures like "6 million" that are being bandied about SHOULD be challenged in the interests of accuracy and fairness.
    IF you want to dispute the numbers(for which there is no scinetific proof),you should,democraticely be allowed to do so WITHOUT being treated as a war criminal.

    Scientific proof? Like say records of the numbers of Jews singled out and exterminated? Say like this? Oh, and in case you think it might be a crank author, check out IBM's response which does not deny their involvement and this CNN report of a civil suit filed by a group of ethnic Gypsies who sued IBM in Switzerland for their involvement with the Nazi extermination of gypsies.


  • #66
    Winters
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,762 ✭✭✭✭Winters


    Cianos wrote: »
    Ideally anyone should be able to say anything they want to whoever they want. But practically speaking, if it causes more suffering by allowing it to happen then I can understand why it is outlawed.

    Its a real pity people are still fickle and stupid.

    Also, that 6 millions Jew figure. I think it was taken from the last census done across Europe before the outbreak of war, and then the next census done after the war. It probably does not actually take into account the various ones who fled throughout the war to other countries etc.

    I can understand the figure being disputed, but there is no denying that it did not happen on a grand scale.

    Wonder what happened to all that gold?


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  • #67
    Rsaeire
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,888 ✭✭✭Rsaeire


    Rented Mule wrote: »
    I think the interesting thing is the fact that we are trying to differentiate between 300,000 and 6,000,000people, as if the 300,000 wouldn't be a bad thing.

    I was thinking the same thing myself. Regardless of the amount of people killed, it was still an atrocity. My questioning of the figures is from a place of wanting to learn the factual evidence and not from a want to debate the merits back and forth for either side of the argument.


  • #68
    Sherifu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,727 ✭✭✭✭Sherifu


    Winters wrote: »
    Wonder what happened to all that gold?

    Good documentary about that;

    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0065938/


  • #69
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 4,183 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Winters wrote: »
    Its a real pity people are still fickle and stupid.

    Also, that 6 millions Jew figure. I think it was taken from the last census done across Europe before the outbreak of war, and then the next census done after the war. It probably does not actually take into account the various ones who fled throughout the war to other countries etc.

    I can understand the figure being disputed, but there is no denying that it did not happen on a grand scale.

    Wonder what happened to all that gold?

    The figure includes the Jews killed in Russia (a truly staggering number - there is film footage somewhere of German soldiers saving ammo by tying 2 or 3 men together then shooting one and tossing them all off a bridge, the dead man carrying the other 2 to their deaths), the numbers sent from France, Netherlands, Belgium and Czechoslovakia as well as the huge numbers of ethnic Jews in Germany, Austria and Poland.


  • #70
    Rsaeire
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,888 ✭✭✭Rsaeire


    Winters wrote: »
    Wonder what happened to all that gold?
    The Nazis sent some of it to the Vatican, but that's a story for another thread! ;)


  • #71
    Sherifu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,727 ✭✭✭✭Sherifu


    Rsaeire wrote: »
    The Nazis sent some of it to the Vatican, but that's a story for another thread! ;)

    Hiding in plain sight...


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  • #72
    rovert
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 23,089 ✭✭✭✭rovert


    The fact people who question the 6 million figure on a factual basis are labeled as out and out DENIERS tells you all you need to know about the accuracy of that estimate.


  • #73
    Degsy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,397 ✭✭✭✭Degsy


    jim o doom wrote: »
    the average soldier was not operated upon whilst alive and screaming under no anaestesia.
    The average bombed civillian did NOT have their skin used to make a "lamp" or some nice human hand "gloves" nor have their skin chopped off as they had an "interesting tattoo" that could be put in a frame.

    Neither did the average concentration camp inmate.


  • #74
    kevpants
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,863 ✭✭✭kevpants


    Bambi wrote: »
    The american indians must be p**sed off, they had their culture wiped out too and all they got was some reservations in the arsehole of nowhere. The jews got their own country and a perpetual get of jail card, :pac:

    Read my mind!

    I don't think your general "holocaust denier", which is a ridiculous tag to give anyone who challenges the accepted view of WWII, is saying nothing bad happened to Jews or that they weren't targeted but that the aftermath of the whole event is so grossly over-inflated.

    100 million civilians died in WWI, most of them christians, why doesn't that get a big scary name like "The Holocaust". Maybe "The Reaping" (wasn't that a crap movie?). Or why don't the American Indians get "The Rape-slash-fest" or the Australian Aborigine's (the Tazmanian race was actually rendered EXTINCT) get "The Dark-rot-ination".

    It's as if the others who died as a result of any war aren't quite as tragic because it wasn't part of "The Holocaust".

    The Jewish race got free reign to invade countries based on thousands and thousands of years old text (so don't talk to me about zombie Jesus loving Christians being ridiculous) and to this day non-Islamic political leaders refuse to call them on any of their actions. It's ridiculous. The only action that was required was to get rid of the Nazi's, job done, why all the other follow-on?

    It's all based on a misplaced sense of guilt that we are all supposed to have regarding Jews. I never did anything to any Jews, why the hell do I have to tiptoe around them?


  • #75
    Winters
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,762 ✭✭✭✭Winters


    Deleted User wrote: »
    The figure includes the Jews killed in Russia (a truly staggering number - there is film footage somewhere of German soldiers saving ammo by tying 2 or 3 men together then shooting one and tossing them all off a bridge, the dead man carrying the other 2 to their deaths), the numbers sent from France, Netherlands, Belgium and Czechoslovakia as well as the huge numbers of ethnic Jews in Germany, Austria and Poland.

    Gotta hand it to the Nazi's, even during wartime they could be economical with their bullets. Maybe our own government cook take a leaf out of their book.

    The fact of the matter is that the numbers are nothing more than rough estimates. Nobody will actually ever know just how many people (not just jews but also many gypsy's, homosexuals, blacks, poets, scholars and outspoken Nazi opponents) actually did die through genocide during the wartime years.

    Sure, 6 million is a drop in the ocean, Stalin killed a lot more than that. The commie bastard.


  • #76
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 4,183 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Winters wrote: »
    The fact of the matter is that the numbers are nothing more than rough estimates. Nobody will actually ever know just how many people (not just jews but also many gypsy's, homosexuals, blacks, poets, scholars and outspoken Nazi opponents) actually did die through genocide during the wartime years.

    Eh...Did you not see my post above? There is documentary evidence of the numbers killed thanks to IBM who supplied the Nazis with the technology to count the Jews and keep records of the numbers killed.

    Just in case you missed it check out the links in this post.


  • #77
    marcsignal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭marcsignal


    Link to previous thread on this over in Politics a few weeks ago here


    Everyone knows the holocaust happened. The only question is a question of degree. Having said that, I agree with "Norman Finkelstein" when he claims that Holocaust Memmorial has become, and is, a very lucrative industry. So much so, that some young American Jews are known to use the expression "There's no business like Shoah business" when describing the phenomenon 'satirically'. It has also been used as an ideological weapon, by Israel, since the late 60's, to bludgen it's critics into silence.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9O2dKIgWoo

    Bambi wrote: »
    The american indians must be p**sed off, they had their culture wiped out too and all they got was some reservations in the arsehole of nowhere. The jews got their own country and a perpetual get of jail card, :pac:

    I always thought it was interesting that the largest Holocaust memmorial (among many) in the U.S. is in Washington DC, yet there is no Memmorial in DC to the victims of American Black Slavery.

    I wonder what the Americans would think of the Germans, if they built one in Berlin......


    .


  • #78
    anonymous_joe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,255 ✭✭✭anonymous_joe


    Hmmm, was just reading a history of WW2 again, and they point out that the Croatians massacred about 100,000 Serbs during the war.

    Regarding numbers, completley off the top of my head, Polands population prewar was 30% Yiddish (i.e. Jewish) and after the war the number of Polish Jews was around 60,000 or something similarly small.

    The one thing I never knew as a child was whether 6 million Jews were killed by the Nazis, or whether that number included Gypsies, homosexuals, Soviet POWs, etc, or whether they make up another figure.


  • #79
    Winters
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,762 ✭✭✭✭Winters


    But you then spoke about officers in Russia doing it off their own back over a bridge in Russia. Do you think these three deaths were strictly documented and recorded? Did they document the number who were killed during bombing raids? How many actually died in the ghettos?

    How many of them were actually spared? saved? Marked as dead but actually did excape?

    The 6 million number is in no way 100% accurate but is at best a rough estimate massed by various documents and notes which were salvaged at the time and other various estimates. The exact number will never be known.


  • #80
    Caoimhín
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,789 ✭✭✭Caoimhín


    Gummy Panda wrote: »
    I'm confused. Is this 6 million figure suppose to be from the camps alone or does it include the ghettos, the death squads hunting jews not caught yet, the trains to camps, etc that happen during the occuption of europe?

    The 6 million figure includes all murders, concentration camps, death marches, ghettos, trains, extermination camps and those victims who were shot in the forests. The Nazis only turned to using gas and crematoria because their own soldiers were psychologically destroyed during the mass shootings of men, women and children.


  • #81
    Winters
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,762 ✭✭✭✭Winters


    Caoimhín wrote: »
    The 6 million figure includes all murders, concentration camps, death marches, ghettos, trains, extermination camps and those victims who were shot in the forests. The Nazis only turned to using gas and crematoria because their own soldiers were psychologically destroyed during the mass shootings of men, women and children.
    Actually, you could kill more with a few drops of Zyklon B than you could with a single bullet. It was more economical to use gas. The bullets that were being wasted on shooting prisioners could be put to better use defending the oncoming attacking Allies.


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  • #82
    marcsignal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭marcsignal


    Total Holocaust dead is believed to be 11 million, which includes Jews, Gypsies, Homosexuals, political agitators, Communists, the Disabled, and anyone else that came to the attention of the Gestapo and were deemed to be a threat to Nazi National Security for whatever reason.

    The figure includes all those killed by shootings, gassings, starved, beaten or worked to death in Camps, Ghettos and mass executions.

    The Russians claimed 4 million people were killed in Auschwitz alone, however this figure has since been revised down to 1.6 million (I think). The reason the Russians claimed this was the case was because of the Cold War. The West Germans were Americas staunchest Cold War ally in Europe, and apart from some window dressing, the West German Govt. was made up, largely, of former Nazis. The Russian rationale was to suggest the Americans were friendly with Nazis in the post war period.

    Jewish Academic "Raul Hilberg" has also, controversially, cast doubt on the 6 million figure for Jewish victims.

    .


  • #83
    jim o doom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,474 ✭✭✭jim o doom


    Winters wrote: »
    The fact of the matter is that the numbers are nothing more than rough estimates. Nobody will actually ever know just how many people (not just jews but also many gypsy's, homosexuals, blacks, poets, scholars and outspoken Nazi opponents) actually did die through genocide during the wartime years.

    Sure, 6 million is a drop in the ocean, Stalin killed a lot more than that. The commie bastard.

    Yes - we will never know the exact figure - but even saying 6 million is a "rough estimate" do you really think they got it that far wrong - and as another poster mentionned Russian Jews - the russians lost more people than ALL of the allies put together - so I am sure Russian jews made up a significant proportion of that six million number.

    Yes stalin killed a lot - but how many people are denying it? nobody - with the holocaust however, the deniers and decriers exist.

    Being blase about it, or referencing other mass murderers does not take away from the fact that it happened, and that people say it hasn't - are you trying to infer that it was OK that the holocaust occurred - because "HELL - other dictators and civilisations have done it as well".

    You have repeatedly referenced Israel as wel - I don't agree with them, their methods or ANYTHING they do, nor their support by the mainly CHRISTIAN american government - but once again I have to state;
    Israels actions do not make it acceptable to state the holocaust either did not happen, or happen on a small enough scale for it to be not worthy of mention.


  • #84
    Degsy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,397 ✭✭✭✭Degsy


    Caoimhín wrote: »
    The 6 million figure includes all murders, concentration camps, death marches, ghettos, trains, extermination camps and those victims who were shot in the forests. The Nazis only turned to using gas and crematoria because their own soldiers were psychologically destroyed during the mass shootings of men, women and children.

    How do you know all this?
    Is that 6 million accurate to the nearest person "in the forests"?


  • #85
    anonymous_joe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,255 ✭✭✭anonymous_joe


    Degsy wrote: »
    How do you know all this?
    Is that 6 million accurate to the nearest person "in the forests"?

    What's your margin of error? :rolleyes:


  • #86
    RichTea
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,179 ✭✭✭RichTea


    Winters wrote: »
    Actually, you could kill more with a few drops of Zyklon B than you could with a single bullet. It was more economical to use gas. The bullets that were being wasted on shooting prisioners could be put to better use defending the oncoming attacking Allies.

    This is true.

    Holocaust deniers more often than not are either Nazi-sympathisers or gobs***es from the conspiracy theories forum.
    If you take census results from Europe and compare them before and after the war then you can see that the numbers of Jewish people in Europe took a disturbing fall in numbers. Millions were murdered.


  • #87
    Terry
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,073 ✭✭✭✭Terry


    Sherifu wrote: »
    Hiding in plain sight...
    The actual answer is here.
    Winters wrote: »
    Gotta hand it to the Nazi's, even during wartime they could be economical with their bullets. Maybe our own government cook take a leaf out of their book.

    The fact of the matter is that the numbers are nothing more than rough estimates. Nobody will actually ever know just how many people (not just jews but also many gypsy's, homosexuals, blacks, poets, scholars and outspoken Nazi opponents) actually did die through genocide during the wartime years.

    Sure, 6 million is a drop in the ocean, Stalin killed a lot more than that. The commie bastard.
    Freudian slip?
    humanji wrote: »
    The fact that the sites are so badly formatted means that the creators had little time to make them as they were too busy researching the facts. The following graph that was created by top scientologists shows a direct correlation between the time spent creating a website and the deterioration of the accuracy of the theory
    https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/attachments/29933/74505.GIF
    Two minutes


  • #88
    Stoogie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 641 ✭✭✭Stoogie


    Degsy wrote: »
    There should be no such word as the "Holocaust".
    It was the Second World War and around 30 million people were killed of ALL faiths and nationalities.
    The fact is that certain people in the Jewish lobby want to highjack the war and claim that the jews were the only ones to have suffered.
    A sort of monopoly of suffering.
    An American soldier who had served in occupied Germany from 1944 to the end of the war said
    "There were 5 million jews before the war.Hitler killed 6 million and there were 4 million left.How does that work?".


    burn him and his mathmatics

    (this was ment as a humerous quip,as people will probably jump to conclusions at that comment, i believe that it's quite brave to say such a thing if such is you belief)


  • #89
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 99,665 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Degsy wrote: »
    300,000 sounds FAR more believeable than 6 million.
    Have you any idea how long iot would take to kill 6 million people in specially designed camps while fighting a war on several fronts and rapidly runninngout of rescources?
    The limiting factor is not the killing but getting rid of the bodies. It doesn't need to be big because you aren't housing anyone.

    If I find the script of the world at war I'll post it , about how one extermination camp was mainly run by non-Germans and how they built it in a clearing and then removed it afterwards, very very cold. And since it was done back in 1973 most of the sources were still alive and it predates a lot of the holocaust denial.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belzec_extermination_camp
    Bełżec's three gas chambers began operating officially on March 17, 1942,
    ...
    a telegram sent by Hermann Hoefle, Operation Reinhard's Chief of Staff, which indicates that 434,508 Jews were killed in Bełżec through December 31, 1942
    ...
    Only two Jews are known to have survived Bełżec: Rudolf Reder and Chaim Hirszman.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelmno_extermination_camp
    Only two people are known to have survived Chelmno extermination camp: Mordechaï Podchlebnik and Simon Srebnik.


  • #90
    Stoogie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 641 ✭✭✭Stoogie


    many many peeps were murdered during ww2
    many many were jews

    holocaust happened even if it was 1,000,000 jews thats a lot of jews

    if someone shot 46 people that were from the same town as you because they were from the same town then that would be a massive masive event in your life

    1,000,000/ 46 = about 22 thousand times bigger

    seems obvious to me that irts a big deal

    other big deals include all the other large scale murders
    but its a big deal.


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  • #91
    RichTea
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,179 ✭✭✭RichTea


    Stoogie wrote: »
    many many peeps were murdered during ww2
    many many were jews

    holocaust happened even if it was 1,000,000 jews thats a lot of jews

    if someone shot 46 people that were from the same town as you because they were from the same town then that would be a massive masive event in your life

    1,000,000/ 46 = about 22 thousand times bigger

    seems obvious to me that irts a big deal

    other big deals include all the other large scale murders
    but its a big deal.

    Good post. It was certainly more than one million murdered but it helps to understand the huge scope of the killings.
    When we hear about the Holocaust and genocide in general we get statistics and numbers. That really doesn't help bring the human element to the fore.

    If it was about 5-6 million murdered. Thats more than the population of Ireland, about 4 times the population of the Greater Dublin area. It's a sheer staggering loss of life. Almost unprecedented in human history.


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