Holocaust Denial - what do you make of it?

steo87

Note: This is NOT a thread asking whether doubt the event occurred - I am merely asking your opinions of the people who do deny that it occurred, like David Irving etc.

This is probably not the correct forum, please move if needed. Thanks.

twinytwo

steo87 wrote: »

Note: This is NOT a thread asking whether doubt the event occurred - I am merely asking your opinions of the people who do deny that it occurred, like David Irving etc.

This is probably not the correct forum, please move if needed. Thanks.

Bunch of cranks looking for attention.... according to them its the biggest conspircey ever. Muppets end of

monkeyfudge

A lot of the high profiles ones will have an agenda.

But you'll also find plenty of twits on here who will be holocaust deniers because they won't believe carefully researched history books but will be more than happy to put their faith in a badly formatted website they stumbled across.

Caoimhín

I think it is nonsense. The figures and methods of the genocide are difficult to pin down historically so that leaves scope for some people to question the accuracy of the contemporary explanation. There is little doubt that it happened and Eichmann himself put the figure of 6 million Jews and 5 million others.

However, i think it is equally ridiciulous that it is a crime in many European countries to suggest that it did not happen. I certainly understand that Germany has these laws to stifle any neo-Nazi movements using the likes of Ervine to either cause grievous offence or to foster doubt.
I have never read anything that Ervine has written but i truly believe that he should have the right to question the accuracy of the contemporary accounts, it is almost a dogma at this stage.

I simply dont understand how so many people get upset at the likes of Ervine, surely these people rank alongside the "flat earth society", idiots to be ignored and scorned.

jim o doom

It's only ever done through blanket stupidity or by persons whith an agenda (as mentioned) against jewish people -as the holocaust wasn't nice and they are trying to deflect any sympathy from them..

stovelid

4 comments in and no Denial of What ? yet?

monkeyfudge wrote: »

A lot of the high profiles ones will have an agenda.

But you'll also find plenty of twits on here who will be holocaust deniers because they won't believe carefully researched history books but will be more than happy to put their faith in a badly formatted website they stumbled across.

This.

Zillah

Caoimhín wrote: »

I have never read anything that Ervine has written but i truly believe that he should have the right to question the accuracy of the contemporary accounts, it is almost a dogma at this stage.

I'm a huge fan of Europe and what it represents, and so the laws forbidding holocaust denial are something that makes me deeply angry and disappointed. To throw someone in prison for presenting an opinion on history that you disagree with is a staggeringly awful thing for a modern democracy to do.

Mr.Lizard

I think they should be allowed air their views and have their say. If it's such a concrete truth then the people who are oppressing them have nothing to worry about.

javaboy

Mr.Lizard wrote: »

I think they should be allowed air their views and have their say. If it's such a concrete truth then the people who are oppressing them have nothing to worry about.

Allowing Holocaust deniers their say while having a name like Mr. Lizard.... that would really confuse some people over in Conspiracy Theories. :pac:

Agamemnon

I don't believe in Holocaust denial. Still, it serves as a handy gauge of character - if you hear someone spouting it, you know they're nuts.

Degsy

There should be no such word as the "Holocaust".
It was the Second World War and around 30 million people were killed of ALL faiths and nationalities.
The fact is that certain people in the Jewish lobby want to highjack the war and claim that the jews were the only ones to have suffered.
A sort of monopoly of suffering.
An American soldier who had served in occupied Germany from 1944 to the end of the war said
"There were 5 million jews before the war.Hitler killed 6 million and there were 4 million left.How does that work?".

twinytwo

Degsy wrote: »

There should be no such word as the "Holocaust".
It was the Second World War and around 30 million people were killed of ALL faiths and nationalities.
The fact is that certain people in the Jewish lobby want to highjack the war and claim that the jews were the only ones to have suffered.
A sort of monopoly of suffering.
An American soldier who had served in occupied Germany from 1944 to the end of the war said
"There were 5 million jews before the war.Hitler killed 6 million and there were 4 million left.How does that work?".

oh here we go:rolleyes:

S.I.R

people died, get over it....


the Romans killed more innocent people... did they ever get hated ?? NOOOOOOOOOOOO they made roads and rode sheep/goats and spoke messed up Italian...


just when you think your the best at being the worst a Matt Damon appears

humanji

monkeyfudge wrote: »

A lot of the high profiles ones will have an agenda.

But you'll also find plenty of twits on here who will be holocaust deniers because they won't believe carefully researched history books but will be more than happy to put their faith in a badly formatted website they stumbled across.

The fact that the sites are so badly formatted means that the creators had little time to make them as they were too busy researching the facts. The following graph that was created by top scientologists shows a direct correlation between the time spent creating a website and the deterioration of the accuracy of the theory

monkeyfudge

Degsy wrote: »

An American soldier who had served in occupied Germany from 1944 to the end of the war said
"There were 5 million jews before the war.Hitler killed 6 million and there were 4 million left.How does that work?".

Well I'm certainly not going to argue with historical facts mentioned by 'some guy' He clearly knows better than everyone else.

Rsaeire

I have only recently, within the last year, come across the topic of holocaust denial and can honestly say it is completely absurd that some people can deny the cold, hard facts. If not in history, then they can at least look in the newspapers as it is still being discussed to this day with even images of the atrocities still being shown.

I remember seeing an article about the concentration camps in the Sunday Times about 8 years ago, as far as I recall it was in the magazine part, which had graphic images of burial pits with corpses piled up within them. It spanned a good few pages and the article itself discussed the conditions of the concentration camps and how people were put to their death.

For people to act as if these events did not occur in the large volume or the intent that is described throughout history, makes me question their sanity and morality. I can understand why the German government would take a strong stance against anyone questioning the veracity of the holocaust, as they do not wish to be seen as taking the matter lightly, however, the degree in which the German government are handling the situation is very questionable in my opinion.

Capt'n Midnight

http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Holocaust_denial_denial

Holocaust denial denial is the belief that Holocaust denial never occurred or at least not to the degree that many believe it to.
...
Their main claims are as follows:
1. "Holocaust denial" has never happened.
2. Individuals have never spoken out and suggested the Holocaust to be exaggerated or have never existed entirely.
3. David Irving and other proponents of Holocaust denial do not exist.

Mingey

There is a good thread over in the politics forum if you're bothered to search for it.

I personally would like to see a definative inquiry into it with exact figures to shut this whole thing up once and for all.

Big Wave

Agamemnon wrote: »

I don't believe in Holocaust denial.

Well the denial exists, mate - I've heard people deny it on George Galloway's radio show!

twinytwo

S.I.R wrote: »

people died, get over it....


the Romans killed more innocent people... did they ever get hated ?? NOOOOOOOOOOOO they made roads and rode sheep/goats and spoke messed up Italian...


just when you think your the best at being the worst a Matt Damon appears

The romans didnt starve people to death.. or burn them alive in ovens

Cianos

Rsaeire wrote: »

I have only recently, within the last year, come across the topic of holocaust denial and can honestly say it is completely absurd that some people can deny the cold, hard facts. If not in history, then they can at least look in the newspapers as it is still being discussed to this day with even images of the atrocities still being shown.

I remember seeing an article about the concentration camps in the Sunday Times about 8 years ago, as far as I recall it was in the magazine part, which had graphic images of burial pits with corpses piled up within them. It spanned a good few pages and the article itself discussed the conditions of the concentration camps and how people were put to their death.

For people to act as if these events did not occur, makes me question their sanity and morality. I can understand why the German government would take a strong stance against anyone questioning the veracity of the holocaust, as they do not wish to be seen as taking the matter lightly, however, the degree in which the German government are handling the situation is very questionable in my opinion.

They aren't just outlawing the denial of the holocaust for the sake of it. There are still groups operating that are very far right and are continuously trying to gather members and support. If they were able to spread outrageous propaganda freely it would make the problem a lot worse.

Mr.Lizard

twinytwo wrote: »

The romans didnt starve people to death.. or burn them alive in ovens

Were they still alive in the ovens? Didn't know that.

monkeyfudge

Big Wave wrote: »

Well the denial exists, mate - I've heard people deny it on George Galloway's radio show!

OMG! You're Holocaust Denial Denial denier!

S.I.R

twinytwo wrote: »

The romans didnt starve people to death.. or burn them alive in ovens

They didnth ave to... Far too efficant to need to do any rubbish like that.


a waste of perfectly good fuel... just cut them up with a sword...

Winters

If people are allowed to believe that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree .. then why cant people say there was no Holocaust?

brianthebard

Caoimhín wrote: »

However, i think it is equally ridiciulous that it is a crime in many European countries to suggest that it did not happen. I certainly understand that Germany has these laws to stifle any neo-Nazi movements using the likes of Ervine to either cause grievous offence or to foster doubt.
I have never read anything that Ervine has written but i truly believe that he should have the right to question the accuracy of the contemporary accounts, it is almost a dogma at this stage.

I simply dont understand how so many people get upset at the likes of Ervine, surely these people rank alongside the "flat earth society", idiots to be ignored and scorned.

Historians in Germany and across Europe do have the right to "question the accuracy of the contemporary accounts", what they don't have a right to do is to make claims that only 300,000 people died in the holocaust for instance. That's not questioning the accuracy, and its not being accurate. So what is the purpose? Tbh most people that have a problem with holocaust denial laws tend to either not understand how they work or not fully comprehend the political meaning of the holocaust.

CreepingDeath

Degsy wrote: »

An American soldier who had served in occupied Germany from 1944 to the end of the war said
"There were 5 million jews before the war.Hitler killed 6 million and there were 4 million left.How does that work?".

Maybe the jews built tunnels out of the gas chambers like in the great escape. So some were double counted.

eastcat

Well people should be allowed to hold and express any opinion this wish. That or censor everybody and everything. The thing about History is that there are many different versions of it. Whether or not it get's airtime or gets published is linked to the power of those proposing it. The Jewish lobby holds a hell of a lot of sway since WW2 and for many their story is THE story. I am too young to know what happened and I like to read many different accounts from many different sides. I am not in a position to deny anything but I definitely would never prevent someone from voicing their opinion. Let's allow free speech or if we don't let's treat Zionists the same way as they want to treat everyone else.

PS: Israel is holding it's own little reenactment of the Holocaust and they deny it every day, worldwide, repeatedly. Yet none are thrown in prison for this.

jim o doom

Winters wrote: »

If people are allowed to believe that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree .. then why cant people say there was no Holocaust?

because there is
(a) no video or picture evidence of the above (there is of the holocaust - I even visited Auswich - disturbing stuff)
(b) there are no still living survivors from the above who lost most/all of their family to the above - there are from the holocaust
(c) the above did not involve a concentrated attempt by one group of supposedly common ethnic origins to exterminate another from the planet for perceived injustices..

Caoimhín

brianthebard wrote: »

Historians in Germany and across Europe do have the right to "question the accuracy of the contemporary accounts", what they don't have a right to do is to make claims that only 300,000 people died in the holocaust for instance. That's not questioning the accuracy, and its not being accurate. So what is the purpose? Tbh most people that have a problem with holocaust denial laws tend to either not understand how they work or not fully comprehend the political meaning of the holocaust.

Fair enough, but what is the cutoff figure then? At what estimated figure does it become holocaust denial. If saying 300,000 people died is denial then is it denial to suggest that 100,000 died, or is saying 3,000,000 died part denial?
I suppose it depends on what the legislation says in each country but it seems to be a bit arbitarary.

Agamemnon

Big Wave wrote: »

Well the denial exists, mate - I've heard people deny it on George Galloway's radio show!

I don't believe in George Galloway either.

Caoimhín

Rsaeire wrote: »

I remember seeing an article about the concentration camps in the Sunday Times about 8 years ago, as far as I recall it was in the magazine part, which had graphic images of burial pits with corpses piled up within them. It spanned a good few pages and the article itself discussed the conditions of the concentration camps and how people were put to their death.

For people to act as if these events did not occur, makes me question their sanity and morality.

I havent read anything that these Holocaust denier loopers have written, but i believe their point of contention is not that so many people died, rather it is that 6 million Jews were systematically murdered and that this was the deliberate policy of the "third Reich".

Whats the Holocaust?

eastcat

Caoimhín wrote: »

Fair enough, but what is the cutoff figure then? At what estimated figure does it become holocaust denial. If saying 300,000 people died is denial then is it denial to suggest that 100,000 died, or is saying 3,000,000 died part denial?
I suppose it depends on what the legislation says in each country but it seems to be a bit arbitarary.

Anything that goes against the what they say is Holocaust Denial. We must accept all off what they say.

Cianos

There is as much historical evidence as needed to prove that it DID happen. So the act of publicly denying it can only be seen as a fascist action in the attempt to delude people towards your cause. And in the case of Germany, where there is a relatively strong fascist movement, it becomes a lot more relevant. The young, disenfranchised, out of work who are looking for a reason for their troubles and a solution should be protected from being drawn to the far right organisations that wish to attract them, Holocaust denial being one of the ways in which they would try and achieve that.

Zillah

Degsy wrote: »

There should be no such word as the "Holocaust".
It was the Second World War and around 30 million people were killed of ALL faiths and nationalities.
The fact is that certain people in the Jewish lobby want to highjack the war and claim that the jews were the only ones to have suffered.
A sort of monopoly of suffering.
An American soldier who had served in occupied Germany from 1944 to the end of the war said
"There were 5 million jews before the war.Hitler killed 6 million and there were 4 million left.How does that work?".

Could you remove the Thanks you gave me on the first page please, I don't want people thinking we are in anyway related in our opinions.

Cianos wrote: »

There is as much historical evidence as needed to prove that it DID happen. So the act of publicly denying it can only be seen as a fascist action in the attempt to delude people towards your cause. And in the case of Germany, where there is a relatively strong fascist movement, it becomes a lot more relevant. The young, disenfranchised, out of work who are looking for a reason for their troubles and a solution should be protected from being drawn to the far right organisations that wish to attract them, Holocaust denial being one of the ways in which they would try and achieve that.

No one is claiming that Fascistic suppression of free speech doesn't have it's uses, merely that it violates democratic principles. I can argue that shooting Right Wingers in the head reduces the power of the far Right but that's a different argument as to whether I have the right to.

ScumLord

rarnes1 wrote: »

Whats the Holocaust?

It's a special room on the starship enterprise.

Degsy

Caoimhín wrote: »

their point of contention is not that so many people died, rather it is that 6 million Jews were systematically murdered and that this was the deliberate policy of the "third Reich".

Yes it is.
The figure of 6 million is completely grounless and has been accepted as fact by people who know no better.
It has been proved that the extermination camps as oppsed to concentration camps were physically incapable of killing that many people.
As i've said before there were barely 6 mmillion jews in all of europe at that stage.

brianthebard

Caoimhín wrote: »

Fair enough, but what is the cutoff figure then? At what estimated figure does it become holocaust denial. If saying 300,000 people died is denial then is it denial to suggest that 100,000 died, or is saying 3,000,000 died part denial?
I suppose it depends on what the legislation says in each country but it seems to be a bit arbitarary.

Well its about more than just figures, the recent example of a reinstated bishop who said only 300,000 died and there were no gas chambers is clearly going against actual evidence that people were gassed, and more than 300,000. There are still historians, real and respected historians who question the figures, its suggested that between six and eight million may be the total of all people killed in the holocaust, not eleven million. The final figure is still up for debate.
People seem to be confused about what the act of denial in history actually is, if I wrote a book saying Dev never existed or that the Famine didn't happen, how would people feel?

Degsy wrote: »

Yes it is.
The figure of 6 million is completely grounless and has been accepted as fact by people who know no better.
It has been proved that the extermination camps as oppsed to concentration camps were physically incapable of killing that many people.
As i've said before there were barely 6 mmillion jews in all of europe at that stage.

out of interest, who has proven this? What census figures are you referring to when you say there weren't six million Jews in Europe?

Winters

jim o doom wrote: »

because there is
(a) no video or picture evidence of the above (there is of the holocaust - I even visited Auswich - disturbing stuff)
(b) there are no still living survivors from the above who lost most/all of their family to the above - there are from the holocaust
(c) the above did not involve a concentrated attempt by one group of supposedly common ethnic origins to exterminate another from the planet for perceived injustices..

Wow, well done. I have also visited Dachau, disturbing indeed. However why is it disturbing? Because in your mind you have the thought that "right here x thousands of people died"? The fact that the camp's are in the middle of nowhere with pure silence might add to the errie feeling.

However, just because of all the video and photographic evidence, the numerous eyewitness accounts the documentation all done by the offices and doctors who took part in it you cannot stop anyone from claiming or believing it didn't happen, and it is wrong to condemn them for believing so.

Millions of people believe that all the billions of people on this world stem from 2 individuals who were created by some sort of mystical invisible supreme being who lives in the sky and craves our attention and praise every day. This belief goes against the mountains of evidence of evolution, biology, physics etc.

Try telling people they cant believe in Jesus and God because there is evidence against it? Its acceptable to believe in one thing, despite the mountain of evidence proving it wrong, because of what reason? Its done by millions? its socially acceptable? its apart of our history/heritage? You'll upset the many old biddy's who ring up Joe Duffey?

Denying the holocaust is less dangerous then believing most of the religious out there. Its just not socially acceptable as you'll upset the Jews, lets just not annoy them and turn a blind eye to the murders they are inflicting upon the Palestine people there.

I know the Holocaust happened. I'm not stupid enough to deny that, but saying you cant believe in something when people are allowed believe in more dangerous things and your not allowed speak out against that as you'll get bombed etc.

sceptre

Big Wave wrote: »

Well the denial exists, mate - I've heard people deny it on George Galloway's radio show!

You're obviously part of the conspiracy conspiracy promulgated by the new world order order.

Degsy

brianthebard wrote: »

Well its about more than just figures, the recent example of a reinstated bishop who said only 300,000 died and there were no gas chambers is clearly going against actual evidence that people were gassed, and more than 300,000

300,000 sounds FAR more believeable than 6 million.
Have you any idea how long iot would take to kill 6 million people in specially designed camps while fighting a war on several fronts and rapidly runninngout of rescources?

Mingey

Why do people blindly accept that figure, where is the proof that backs it up?

Sam Vimes

The thing that always confused me was the people who deny the holocaust usually really hate jews. If they hate them so much why do they find it so hard to believe that the nazis hated them just as much

brianthebard

Degsy wrote: »

300,000 sounds FAR more believeable than 6 million.
Have you any idea how long iot would take to kill 6 million people in specially designed camps while fighting a war on several fronts and rapidly runninngout of rescources?

Just to clarify, are you siding with the holocaust denial camp? And are you doing it for teh trollz or are you serious?

Mingey

Sam Vimes wrote: »

The thing that always confused me was the people who deny the holocaust usually really hate jews. If they hate them so much why do they find it so hard to believe that the nazis hated them just as much

Thats true, you think they would be celebrating and rejoicing at those figures.

When did those figures become official?

It took 4 years to kill off 1.1 or therabouts Irish people in the famine through starvation. Is it possible to kill 6 million 6 years in camps?

Rsaeire

Caoimhín wrote: »

I havent read anything that these Holocaust denier loopers have written, but i believe their point of contention is not that so many people died, rather it is that 6 million Jews were systematically murdered and that this was the deliberate policy of the "third Reich".

I'll update my post to better reflect my point, as I agree with what you've said.

Of course nobody can say with any degree of accuracy how many Jewish people, or even people in general, were killed in concentration camps and throughout Europe by the Germans, but in my opinion, saying either 300,000 or 6 million Jewish people were killed does show a huge difference. I would be more interested in seeing as good an estimate as possible as to how many Jewish people were in Europe before WWII and after to see the difference.

jim o doom

Winters wrote: »

stuff

You make a lot of good points there - but the thing is with religion - there is no actual hard evidence at all - and there is a big movement against it, the Athiest movement..
people who believe it, need to believe it or want to believe it for the own personal mental health (which isn't such a bad thing maybe), whereas athiests feel it is detrimental to society (which I mostly agree with as I think it's a big silly joke and does a fair bit of harm to society as a whole as opposed to a persons mental health)

With the holocaust, there is actual hard evidence, whether or not you choose to accept it's authenticity. & the people who choose to oppose it do not do so, for the reasons of their mental health, but out of either ignorance or malicious intent against the religious group against which it was perpetrated..

I know it could be said that people believe in religion through ignorance - but I think it's mainly the intent of the person believing in either religion or believing the holocaust is a large scale fraud - one does it out of honesty or need, whereas the other does it out of ignorance or maliciousness.. verrrry different intent altogether..

Oh and kudos for the initial description of christianity - one of the funniest things I've read in ages - very well put

Rented Mule

Rsaeire wrote: »

I'll update my post to better reflect my point, as I agree with what you've said.

Of course nobody can say with any degree of accuracy how many Jewish people, or even people in general, were killed in concentration camps and throughout Europe by the Germans, but in my opinion, saying either 300,000 or 6 million Jewish people were killed does show a huge difference. I would be more interested in seeing as good an estimate as possible as to how many Jewish people were in Europe before WWII and after to see the difference.

I think the interesting thing is the fact that we are trying to differentiate between 300,000 and 6,000,000people, as if the 300,000 wouldn't be a bad thing.

Mingey

What are the deniers take on the photos of thousands of bodies in camps?

jim o doom

Winters wrote: »

Its just not socially acceptable as you'll upset the Jews, lets just not annoy them and turn a blind eye to the murders they are inflicting upon the Palestine people there.

</p>
See this is one thing here I have to take exception to; how can you blame the jews that died during that war on the actions of the jews that are currently inflicting pain on the palestines?
I certainly don't agree with anything Israel is doing currently, with the support sadly of many governments - but that being said, I certainly think it's dangerous to allow far right wing groups espouse that the holocaust "never really happened" or "only happened on a small scale" in an attempt to acquire even more idiotic and racist followers.

It's easy enough for facist groups as it is - because there are a LOT of facist morons all over the world perpetuating ignorance.

I don't give a toss about social acceptability - I'm not religious - I just think the holocaust was fcked up - I think what israel is doing is fcked up - but I don't excuse ignorant holocaust deniers due to israels actions.