Holocaust Denial - what do you make of it?

Caoimhín · 10-03-2009 11:38AM

Rsaeire wrote: »

I remember seeing an article about the concentration camps in the Sunday Times about 8 years ago, as far as I recall it was in the magazine part, which had graphic images of burial pits with corpses piled up within them. It spanned a good few pages and the article itself discussed the conditions of the concentration camps and how people were put to their death.

For people to act as if these events did not occur, makes me question their sanity and morality.

I havent read anything that these Holocaust denier loopers have written, but i believe their point of contention is not that so many people died, rather it is that 6 million Jews were systematically murdered and that this was the deliberate policy of the "third Reich".

10-03-2009 11:40AM

Whats the Holocaust?

eastcat · 10-03-2009 11:40AM

Caoimhín wrote: »

Fair enough, but what is the cutoff figure then? At what estimated figure does it become holocaust denial. If saying 300,000 people died is denial then is it denial to suggest that 100,000 died, or is saying 3,000,000 died part denial?
I suppose it depends on what the legislation says in each country but it seems to be a bit arbitarary.

Anything that goes against the what they say is Holocaust Denial. We must accept all off what they say.

Cianos · 10-03-2009 11:42AM

There is as much historical evidence as needed to prove that it DID happen. So the act of publicly denying it can only be seen as a fascist action in the attempt to delude people towards your cause. And in the case of Germany, where there is a relatively strong fascist movement, it becomes a lot more relevant. The young, disenfranchised, out of work who are looking for a reason for their troubles and a solution should be protected from being drawn to the far right organisations that wish to attract them, Holocaust denial being one of the ways in which they would try and achieve that.

Zillah · 10-03-2009 11:45AM

Degsy wrote: »

There should be no such word as the "Holocaust".
It was the Second World War and around 30 million people were killed of ALL faiths and nationalities.
The fact is that certain people in the Jewish lobby want to highjack the war and claim that the jews were the only ones to have suffered.
A sort of monopoly of suffering.
An American soldier who had served in occupied Germany from 1944 to the end of the war said
"There were 5 million jews before the war.Hitler killed 6 million and there were 4 million left.How does that work?".

Could you remove the Thanks you gave me on the first page please, I don't want people thinking we are in anyway related in our opinions.

Cianos wrote: »

There is as much historical evidence as needed to prove that it DID happen. So the act of publicly denying it can only be seen as a fascist action in the attempt to delude people towards your cause. And in the case of Germany, where there is a relatively strong fascist movement, it becomes a lot more relevant. The young, disenfranchised, out of work who are looking for a reason for their troubles and a solution should be protected from being drawn to the far right organisations that wish to attract them, Holocaust denial being one of the ways in which they would try and achieve that.

No one is claiming that Fascistic suppression of free speech doesn't have it's uses, merely that it violates democratic principles. I can argue that shooting Right Wingers in the head reduces the power of the far Right but that's a different argument as to whether I have the right to.

ScumLord · 10-03-2009 11:51AM

rarnes1 wrote: »

Whats the Holocaust?

It's a special room on the starship enterprise.

Degsy · 10-03-2009 11:52AM

Caoimhín wrote: »

their point of contention is not that so many people died, rather it is that 6 million Jews were systematically murdered and that this was the deliberate policy of the "third Reich".

Yes it is.
The figure of 6 million is completely grounless and has been accepted as fact by people who know no better.
It has been proved that the extermination camps as oppsed to concentration camps were physically incapable of killing that many people.
As i've said before there were barely 6 mmillion jews in all of europe at that stage.

brianthebard · 10-03-2009 11:56AM

Caoimhín wrote: »

Fair enough, but what is the cutoff figure then? At what estimated figure does it become holocaust denial. If saying 300,000 people died is denial then is it denial to suggest that 100,000 died, or is saying 3,000,000 died part denial?
I suppose it depends on what the legislation says in each country but it seems to be a bit arbitarary.

Well its about more than just figures, the recent example of a reinstated bishop who said only 300,000 died and there were no gas chambers is clearly going against actual evidence that people were gassed, and more than 300,000. There are still historians, real and respected historians who question the figures, its suggested that between six and eight million may be the total of all people killed in the holocaust, not eleven million. The final figure is still up for debate.
People seem to be confused about what the act of denial in history actually is, if I wrote a book saying Dev never existed or that the Famine didn't happen, how would people feel?

Degsy wrote: »

Yes it is.
The figure of 6 million is completely grounless and has been accepted as fact by people who know no better.
It has been proved that the extermination camps as oppsed to concentration camps were physically incapable of killing that many people.
As i've said before there were barely 6 mmillion jews in all of europe at that stage.

out of interest, who has proven this? What census figures are you referring to when you say there weren't six million Jews in Europe?

Winters · 10-03-2009 11:57AM

jim o doom wrote: »

because there is
(a) no video or picture evidence of the above (there is of the holocaust - I even visited Auswich - disturbing stuff)
(b) there are no still living survivors from the above who lost most/all of their family to the above - there are from the holocaust
(c) the above did not involve a concentrated attempt by one group of supposedly common ethnic origins to exterminate another from the planet for perceived injustices..

Wow, well done. I have also visited Dachau, disturbing indeed. However why is it disturbing? Because in your mind you have the thought that "right here x thousands of people died"? The fact that the camp's are in the middle of nowhere with pure silence might add to the errie feeling.

However, just because of all the video and photographic evidence, the numerous eyewitness accounts the documentation all done by the offices and doctors who took part in it you cannot stop anyone from claiming or believing it didn't happen, and it is wrong to condemn them for believing so.

Millions of people believe that all the billions of people on this world stem from 2 individuals who were created by some sort of mystical invisible supreme being who lives in the sky and craves our attention and praise every day. This belief goes against the mountains of evidence of evolution, biology, physics etc.

Try telling people they cant believe in Jesus and God because there is evidence against it? Its acceptable to believe in one thing, despite the mountain of evidence proving it wrong, because of what reason? Its done by millions? its socially acceptable? its apart of our history/heritage? You'll upset the many old biddy's who ring up Joe Duffey?

Denying the holocaust is less dangerous then believing most of the religious out there. Its just not socially acceptable as you'll upset the Jews, lets just not annoy them and turn a blind eye to the murders they are inflicting upon the Palestine people there.

I know the Holocaust happened. I'm not stupid enough to deny that, but saying you cant believe in something when people are allowed believe in more dangerous things and your not allowed speak out against that as you'll get bombed etc.

sceptre · 10-03-2009 11:57AM

Big Wave wrote: »

Well the denial exists, mate - I've heard people deny it on George Galloway's radio show!

You're obviously part of the conspiracy conspiracy promulgated by the new world order order.

Degsy · 10-03-2009 12:00PM

brianthebard wrote: »

Well its about more than just figures, the recent example of a reinstated bishop who said only 300,000 died and there were no gas chambers is clearly going against actual evidence that people were gassed, and more than 300,000

300,000 sounds FAR more believeable than 6 million.
Have you any idea how long iot would take to kill 6 million people in specially designed camps while fighting a war on several fronts and rapidly runninngout of rescources?

Mingey · 10-03-2009 12:00PM

Why do people blindly accept that figure, where is the proof that backs it up?

Sam Vimes · 10-03-2009 12:00PM

The thing that always confused me was the people who deny the holocaust usually really hate jews. If they hate them so much why do they find it so hard to believe that the nazis hated them just as much

brianthebard · 10-03-2009 12:05PM

Degsy wrote: »

300,000 sounds FAR more believeable than 6 million.
Have you any idea how long iot would take to kill 6 million people in specially designed camps while fighting a war on several fronts and rapidly runninngout of rescources?

Just to clarify, are you siding with the holocaust denial camp? And are you doing it for teh trollz or are you serious?

Mingey · 10-03-2009 12:06PM

Sam Vimes wrote: »

The thing that always confused me was the people who deny the holocaust usually really hate jews. If they hate them so much why do they find it so hard to believe that the nazis hated them just as much

Thats true, you think they would be celebrating and rejoicing at those figures.

When did those figures become official?

It took 4 years to kill off 1.1 or therabouts Irish people in the famine through starvation. Is it possible to kill 6 million 6 years in camps?

Rsaeire · 10-03-2009 12:06PM

Caoimhín wrote: »

I havent read anything that these Holocaust denier loopers have written, but i believe their point of contention is not that so many people died, rather it is that 6 million Jews were systematically murdered and that this was the deliberate policy of the "third Reich".

I'll update my post to better reflect my point, as I agree with what you've said.

Of course nobody can say with any degree of accuracy how many Jewish people, or even people in general, were killed in concentration camps and throughout Europe by the Germans, but in my opinion, saying either 300,000 or 6 million Jewish people were killed does show a huge difference. I would be more interested in seeing as good an estimate as possible as to how many Jewish people were in Europe before WWII and after to see the difference.

jim o doom · 10-03-2009 12:13PM

Winters wrote: »

stuff

You make a lot of good points there - but the thing is with religion - there is no actual hard evidence at all - and there is a big movement against it, the Athiest movement..
people who believe it, need to believe it or want to believe it for the own personal mental health (which isn't such a bad thing maybe), whereas athiests feel it is detrimental to society (which I mostly agree with as I think it's a big silly joke and does a fair bit of harm to society as a whole as opposed to a persons mental health)

With the holocaust, there is actual hard evidence, whether or not you choose to accept it's authenticity. & the people who choose to oppose it do not do so, for the reasons of their mental health, but out of either ignorance or malicious intent against the religious group against which it was perpetrated..

I know it could be said that people believe in religion through ignorance - but I think it's mainly the intent of the person believing in either religion or believing the holocaust is a large scale fraud - one does it out of honesty or need, whereas the other does it out of ignorance or maliciousness.. verrrry different intent altogether..

Oh and kudos for the initial description of christianity - one of the funniest things I've read in ages - very well put

Rented Mule · 10-03-2009 12:14PM

Rsaeire wrote: »

I'll update my post to better reflect my point, as I agree with what you've said.

Of course nobody can say with any degree of accuracy how many Jewish people, or even people in general, were killed in concentration camps and throughout Europe by the Germans, but in my opinion, saying either 300,000 or 6 million Jewish people were killed does show a huge difference. I would be more interested in seeing as good an estimate as possible as to how many Jewish people were in Europe before WWII and after to see the difference.

I think the interesting thing is the fact that we are trying to differentiate between 300,000 and 6,000,000people, as if the 300,000 wouldn't be a bad thing.

Mingey · 10-03-2009 12:18PM

What are the deniers take on the photos of thousands of bodies in camps?

jim o doom · 10-03-2009 12:20PM

Winters wrote: »

Its just not socially acceptable as you'll upset the Jews, lets just not annoy them and turn a blind eye to the murders they are inflicting upon the Palestine people there.

</p>
See this is one thing here I have to take exception to; how can you blame the jews that died during that war on the actions of the jews that are currently inflicting pain on the palestines?
I certainly don't agree with anything Israel is doing currently, with the support sadly of many governments - but that being said, I certainly think it's dangerous to allow far right wing groups espouse that the holocaust "never really happened" or "only happened on a small scale" in an attempt to acquire even more idiotic and racist followers.

It's easy enough for facist groups as it is - because there are a LOT of facist morons all over the world perpetuating ignorance.

I don't give a toss about social acceptability - I'm not religious - I just think the holocaust was fcked up - I think what israel is doing is fcked up - but I don't excuse ignorant holocaust deniers due to israels actions.

monkeyfudge · 10-03-2009 12:21PM

Mingey wrote: »

What are the deniers take on the photos of thousands of bodies in camps?

Photoshopped. Hitler didn't even really have a moustache...

Degsy · 10-03-2009 12:22PM

brianthebard wrote: »

Just to clarify, are you siding with the holocaust denial camp? And are you doing it for teh trollz or are you serious?

I'm not siding with anybody.
I'm merely stating that in my opinion ther Second World War was an event in which huge numbers of people of ALL races were killed and that for some reason,not just jews.
I further think that figures like "6 million" that are being bandied about SHOULD be challenged in the interests of accuracy and fairness.
IF you want to dispute the numbers(for which there is no scinetific proof),you should,democraticely be allowed to do so WITHOUT being treated as a war criminal.

brianthebard · 10-03-2009 12:24PM

And as I've already said degs, you are allowed question the figures. Just not deny the events. What sort of scinetific proof is lacking from studies of the holocaust?

Winters · 10-03-2009 12:24PM

jim o doom wrote: »

With the holocaust, there is actual hard evidence, whether or not you choose to accept it's authenticity. & the people who choose to oppose it do not do so, for the reasons of their mental health, but out of either ignorance or malicious intent against the religious group against which it was perpetrated..

And there is hard evidence against all religions authenticity. So why should people adhere to the hard evidence for the mass extermination of Jews/Blacks/Gays/Political Opponents/etc. under the Nazis and not the evidence against religions?

Nobody should be able to pick and choose which evidence is acceptable to believe in and which one can be brushed aside. You either let people believe in what they want or you don't. The people who died (my relations included) in fighting in ww2 fought for the former; so people can believe in what they want, so people can say what they want without being censored and squashed.

Let people believe what they want, but educate them so they can make an informed decision on the matter. The only time anyone should be stopped from voicing their opinion is not if it hurts the feelings of others but if violence is being used.

Let people mock Mohammed, let people mock Atheists, let people mock the Irish, let people mock the polish. But violence is where feet need to be put down and stopped. Denying the holocaust is not causing anyone any harm, they are not the ones bulldozing homes and shooting civilians and blowing themselves up and skateboarding.

Dyr · 10-03-2009 12:26PM

Degsy wrote: »

There should be no such word as the "Holocaust".
It was the Second World War and around 30 million people were killed of ALL faiths and nationalities.
The fact is that certain people in the Jewish lobby want to highjack the war and claim that the jews were the only ones to have suffered.
A sort of monopoly of suffering.
An American soldier who had served in occupied Germany from 1944 to the end of the war said
"There were 5 million jews before the war.Hitler killed 6 million and there were 4 million left.How does that work?".

The american indians must be p**sed off, they had their culture wiped out too and all they got was some reservations in the arsehole of nowhere. The jews got their own country and a perpetual get of jail card, :pac:

ScumLord · 10-03-2009 12:26PM

monkeyfudge wrote: »

Photoshopped. Hitler didn't even really have a moustache...

No photoshop back then. The photographer usually used a piece of glass with a perfectly square piece of dirt on it to achieve the same effect.

Degsy · 10-03-2009 12:26PM

Mingey wrote: »

What are the deniers take on the photos of thousands of bodies in camps?

Where are the 6 million bodies?

Degsy · 10-03-2009 12:28PM

brianthebard wrote: »

And as I've already said degs, you are allowed question the figures. Just not deny the events. What sort of scinetific proof is lacking from studies of the holocaust?

My problem is with the figures AND the fact that the war seems to have been highjacked by the jews in order to gain preferential treatment ie Israel.

jim o doom · 10-03-2009 12:30PM

Degsy wrote: »

Where are the 6 million bodies?

burned for the most part. Saw the ovens - truly disturbingly massive they were.

Mingey · 10-03-2009 12:31PM

Degsy wrote: »

Where are the 6 million bodies?

That's what I would like to know, they cant have all been incinerated or buried, or can they?

But Holocaust deniers deny any deaths have occured, not even 300,000.

I think the only way forward is by Holocaust Revisionism.

Holocaust Denial - what do you make of it?

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