Holocaust Denial - what do you make of it?

steo87 · 10-03-2009 09:49AM #1

Note: This is NOT a thread asking whether doubt the event occurred - I am merely asking your opinions of the people who do deny that it occurred, like David Irving etc.

This is probably not the correct forum, please move if needed. Thanks.

twinytwo · 10-03-2009 09:58AM

steo87 wrote: »

Note: This is NOT a thread asking whether doubt the event occurred - I am merely asking your opinions of the people who do deny that it occurred, like David Irving etc.

This is probably not the correct forum, please move if needed. Thanks.

Bunch of cranks looking for attention.... according to them its the biggest conspircey ever. Muppets end of

monkeyfudge · 10-03-2009 10:05AM

A lot of the high profiles ones will have an agenda.

But you'll also find plenty of twits on here who will be holocaust deniers because they won't believe carefully researched history books but will be more than happy to put their faith in a badly formatted website they stumbled across.

Caoimhín · 10-03-2009 10:09AM

I think it is nonsense. The figures and methods of the genocide are difficult to pin down historically so that leaves scope for some people to question the accuracy of the contemporary explanation. There is little doubt that it happened and Eichmann himself put the figure of 6 million Jews and 5 million others.

However, i think it is equally ridiciulous that it is a crime in many European countries to suggest that it did not happen. I certainly understand that Germany has these laws to stifle any neo-Nazi movements using the likes of Ervine to either cause grievous offence or to foster doubt.
I have never read anything that Ervine has written but i truly believe that he should have the right to question the accuracy of the contemporary accounts, it is almost a dogma at this stage.

I simply dont understand how so many people get upset at the likes of Ervine, surely these people rank alongside the "flat earth society", idiots to be ignored and scorned.

jim o doom · 10-03-2009 10:12AM

It's only ever done through blanket stupidity or by persons whith an agenda (as mentioned) against jewish people -as the holocaust wasn't nice and they are trying to deflect any sympathy from them..

stovelid · 10-03-2009 10:27AM

4 comments in and no Denial of What ? yet?

monkeyfudge wrote: »

A lot of the high profiles ones will have an agenda.

But you'll also find plenty of twits on here who will be holocaust deniers because they won't believe carefully researched history books but will be more than happy to put their faith in a badly formatted website they stumbled across.

This.

Zillah · 10-03-2009 10:45AM

Caoimhín wrote: »

I have never read anything that Ervine has written but i truly believe that he should have the right to question the accuracy of the contemporary accounts, it is almost a dogma at this stage.

I'm a huge fan of Europe and what it represents, and so the laws forbidding holocaust denial are something that makes me deeply angry and disappointed. To throw someone in prison for presenting an opinion on history that you disagree with is a staggeringly awful thing for a modern democracy to do.

Mr.Lizard · 10-03-2009 10:52AM

I think they should be allowed air their views and have their say. If it's such a concrete truth then the people who are oppressing them have nothing to worry about.

javaboy · 10-03-2009 10:54AM

Mr.Lizard wrote: »

I think they should be allowed air their views and have their say. If it's such a concrete truth then the people who are oppressing them have nothing to worry about.

Allowing Holocaust deniers their say while having a name like Mr. Lizard.... that would really confuse some people over in Conspiracy Theories. :pac:

Agamemnon · 10-03-2009 10:56AM

I don't believe in Holocaust denial. Still, it serves as a handy gauge of character - if you hear someone spouting it, you know they're nuts.

Degsy · 10-03-2009 11:00AM

There should be no such word as the "Holocaust".
It was the Second World War and around 30 million people were killed of ALL faiths and nationalities.
The fact is that certain people in the Jewish lobby want to highjack the war and claim that the jews were the only ones to have suffered.
A sort of monopoly of suffering.
An American soldier who had served in occupied Germany from 1944 to the end of the war said
"There were 5 million jews before the war.Hitler killed 6 million and there were 4 million left.How does that work?".

twinytwo · 10-03-2009 11:02AM

Degsy wrote: »

There should be no such word as the "Holocaust".
It was the Second World War and around 30 million people were killed of ALL faiths and nationalities.
The fact is that certain people in the Jewish lobby want to highjack the war and claim that the jews were the only ones to have suffered.
A sort of monopoly of suffering.
An American soldier who had served in occupied Germany from 1944 to the end of the war said
"There were 5 million jews before the war.Hitler killed 6 million and there were 4 million left.How does that work?".

oh here we go:rolleyes:

S.I.R · 10-03-2009 11:05AM

people died, get over it....

the Romans killed more innocent people... did they ever get hated ?? NOOOOOOOOOOOO they made roads and rode sheep/goats and spoke messed up Italian...

just when you think your the best at being the worst a Matt Damon appears

humanji · 10-03-2009 11:06AM

monkeyfudge wrote: »

A lot of the high profiles ones will have an agenda.

But you'll also find plenty of twits on here who will be holocaust deniers because they won't believe carefully researched history books but will be more than happy to put their faith in a badly formatted website they stumbled across.

The fact that the sites are so badly formatted means that the creators had little time to make them as they were too busy researching the facts. The following graph that was created by top scientologists shows a direct correlation between the time spent creating a website and the deterioration of the accuracy of the theory

monkeyfudge · 10-03-2009 11:09AM

Degsy wrote: »

An American soldier who had served in occupied Germany from 1944 to the end of the war said
"There were 5 million jews before the war.Hitler killed 6 million and there were 4 million left.How does that work?".

Well I'm certainly not going to argue with historical facts mentioned by 'some guy' He clearly knows better than everyone else.

Rsaeire · 10-03-2009 11:10AM

I have only recently, within the last year, come across the topic of holocaust denial and can honestly say it is completely absurd that some people can deny the cold, hard facts. If not in history, then they can at least look in the newspapers as it is still being discussed to this day with even images of the atrocities still being shown.

I remember seeing an article about the concentration camps in the Sunday Times about 8 years ago, as far as I recall it was in the magazine part, which had graphic images of burial pits with corpses piled up within them. It spanned a good few pages and the article itself discussed the conditions of the concentration camps and how people were put to their death.

For people to act as if these events did not occur in the large volume or the intent that is described throughout history, makes me question their sanity and morality. I can understand why the German government would take a strong stance against anyone questioning the veracity of the holocaust, as they do not wish to be seen as taking the matter lightly, however, the degree in which the German government are handling the situation is very questionable in my opinion.

Capt'n Midnight · 10-03-2009 11:13AM

http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Holocaust_denial_denial

Holocaust denial denial is the belief that Holocaust denial never occurred or at least not to the degree that many believe it to.
...
Their main claims are as follows:
1. "Holocaust denial" has never happened.
2. Individuals have never spoken out and suggested the Holocaust to be exaggerated or have never existed entirely.
3. David Irving and other proponents of Holocaust denial do not exist.

Mingey · 10-03-2009 11:14AM

There is a good thread over in the politics forum if you're bothered to search for it.

I personally would like to see a definative inquiry into it with exact figures to shut this whole thing up once and for all.

Big Wave · 10-03-2009 11:15AM

Agamemnon wrote: »

I don't believe in Holocaust denial.

Well the denial exists, mate - I've heard people deny it on George Galloway's radio show!

twinytwo · 10-03-2009 11:15AM

S.I.R wrote: »

people died, get over it....

the Romans killed more innocent people... did they ever get hated ?? NOOOOOOOOOOOO they made roads and rode sheep/goats and spoke messed up Italian...

just when you think your the best at being the worst a Matt Damon appears

The romans didnt starve people to death.. or burn them alive in ovens

Cianos · 10-03-2009 11:16AM

Rsaeire wrote: »

I have only recently, within the last year, come across the topic of holocaust denial and can honestly say it is completely absurd that some people can deny the cold, hard facts. If not in history, then they can at least look in the newspapers as it is still being discussed to this day with even images of the atrocities still being shown.

I remember seeing an article about the concentration camps in the Sunday Times about 8 years ago, as far as I recall it was in the magazine part, which had graphic images of burial pits with corpses piled up within them. It spanned a good few pages and the article itself discussed the conditions of the concentration camps and how people were put to their death.

For people to act as if these events did not occur, makes me question their sanity and morality. I can understand why the German government would take a strong stance against anyone questioning the veracity of the holocaust, as they do not wish to be seen as taking the matter lightly, however, the degree in which the German government are handling the situation is very questionable in my opinion.

They aren't just outlawing the denial of the holocaust for the sake of it. There are still groups operating that are very far right and are continuously trying to gather members and support. If they were able to spread outrageous propaganda freely it would make the problem a lot worse.

Mr.Lizard · 10-03-2009 11:16AM

twinytwo wrote: »

The romans didnt starve people to death.. or burn them alive in ovens

Were they still alive in the ovens? Didn't know that.

monkeyfudge · 10-03-2009 11:17AM

Big Wave wrote: »

Well the denial exists, mate - I've heard people deny it on George Galloway's radio show!

OMG! You're Holocaust Denial Denial denier!

S.I.R · 10-03-2009 11:19AM

twinytwo wrote: »

The romans didnt starve people to death.. or burn them alive in ovens

They didnth ave to... Far too efficant to need to do any rubbish like that.

a waste of perfectly good fuel... just cut them up with a sword...

Winters · 10-03-2009 11:19AM

If people are allowed to believe that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree .. then why cant people say there was no Holocaust?

brianthebard · 10-03-2009 11:19AM

Caoimhín wrote: »

However, i think it is equally ridiciulous that it is a crime in many European countries to suggest that it did not happen. I certainly understand that Germany has these laws to stifle any neo-Nazi movements using the likes of Ervine to either cause grievous offence or to foster doubt.
I have never read anything that Ervine has written but i truly believe that he should have the right to question the accuracy of the contemporary accounts, it is almost a dogma at this stage.

I simply dont understand how so many people get upset at the likes of Ervine, surely these people rank alongside the "flat earth society", idiots to be ignored and scorned.

Historians in Germany and across Europe do have the right to "question the accuracy of the contemporary accounts", what they don't have a right to do is to make claims that only 300,000 people died in the holocaust for instance. That's not questioning the accuracy, and its not being accurate. So what is the purpose? Tbh most people that have a problem with holocaust denial laws tend to either not understand how they work or not fully comprehend the political meaning of the holocaust.

CreepingDeath · 10-03-2009 11:22AM

Degsy wrote: »

An American soldier who had served in occupied Germany from 1944 to the end of the war said
"There were 5 million jews before the war.Hitler killed 6 million and there were 4 million left.How does that work?".

Maybe the jews built tunnels out of the gas chambers like in the great escape. So some were double counted.

eastcat · 10-03-2009 11:25AM

Well people should be allowed to hold and express any opinion this wish. That or censor everybody and everything. The thing about History is that there are many different versions of it. Whether or not it get's airtime or gets published is linked to the power of those proposing it. The Jewish lobby holds a hell of a lot of sway since WW2 and for many their story is THE story. I am too young to know what happened and I like to read many different accounts from many different sides. I am not in a position to deny anything but I definitely would never prevent someone from voicing their opinion. Let's allow free speech or if we don't let's treat Zionists the same way as they want to treat everyone else.

PS: Israel is holding it's own little reenactment of the Holocaust and they deny it every day, worldwide, repeatedly. Yet none are thrown in prison for this.

jim o doom · 10-03-2009 11:30AM

Winters wrote: »

If people are allowed to believe that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree .. then why cant people say there was no Holocaust?

because there is
(a) no video or picture evidence of the above (there is of the holocaust - I even visited Auswich - disturbing stuff)
(b) there are no still living survivors from the above who lost most/all of their family to the above - there are from the holocaust
(c) the above did not involve a concentrated attempt by one group of supposedly common ethnic origins to exterminate another from the planet for perceived injustices..

Caoimhín · 10-03-2009 11:34AM

brianthebard wrote: »

Historians in Germany and across Europe do have the right to "question the accuracy of the contemporary accounts", what they don't have a right to do is to make claims that only 300,000 people died in the holocaust for instance. That's not questioning the accuracy, and its not being accurate. So what is the purpose? Tbh most people that have a problem with holocaust denial laws tend to either not understand how they work or not fully comprehend the political meaning of the holocaust.

Fair enough, but what is the cutoff figure then? At what estimated figure does it become holocaust denial. If saying 300,000 people died is denial then is it denial to suggest that 100,000 died, or is saying 3,000,000 died part denial?
I suppose it depends on what the legislation says in each country but it seems to be a bit arbitarary.

Agamemnon · 10-03-2009 11:38AM

Big Wave wrote: »

Well the denial exists, mate - I've heard people deny it on George Galloway's radio show!

I don't believe in George Galloway either.

Holocaust Denial - what do you make of it?

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