2 Dead several others shot outside Army base Antrim

Micky Dolenz · 08-03-2009 01:25PM

sock puppet wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't MI5 have nothing to do with Iraq?

They would have an interest in National security.

javaboy · 08-03-2009 01:26PM

Terrontress wrote: »

Whichever army he is in, it is obviously not one which requires the use of logical reasoning or spelling skills.

If he represents the average intelligence of an Irish soldier, maybe NI is better having the Brits on-board.

His spelling skills are irrelevant. And as far as I know Mairt is dyslexic. Don't bring up petty stuff like that again.

It's a sensitive emotive subject and people will have entrenched and opposite views. Let's not let it descend into personal sniping please. There's been too much of that before.

Any more personal remarks or sly digs on this thread will be dealt with harshly.

midlandsmissus · 08-03-2009 01:27PM

Biggins wrote: »

O' please! :rolleyes:

* If there wasn't sick people willing to use outdated murderous methods to kill young sons and daughters by using cowardly drive-by shooting methods, Northern Ireland wouldn't need special forces.
* If there wasn't utter scumbags un-willing to take a modern peaceful route to seeking their goals, Northern Ireland wouldn't need special forces.
* If there wasn't a 0.01% of twisted individuals, still living in the past with their poor mentation and clearly limited way of thinking, using words and phrases of the past to justify killing/murdering/cutting out lives - Northern Ireland wouldn't need special forces.

As for "a provence under occupation"... dear god, only those that are willing to stay living in the past will still utter that 70's rubbish. I have been on the streets of Belfast many, many, many times during the troubles of the previous era and still up to todays era - and I can tell you right now, Northern Ireland only feels as occupied right now by the so called "Queen's forces" as it feels occupied by a flock of seagulls!

I'm sorry but "a provence under occupation" - thats just a something that I'd expect to hear from those living in the past and unwilling to move on. Well the rest of the country/island has. They have kopped themselves on, seen sense and come to the realisation that if they are achieve their agenda of gaining a united Ireland, they will ONLY gain it by peaceful, modern democratic methods.
They might not like to do this but even the best of the best terrorist organisation that was the I.R.A. came to that same conclusion - and moved on... They decided to work within a peaceful system and now as they are actually inside the doors of power by walking in quietly in suits, not bursting in holding sub-machine guns, they know they are much closer to bringing about their desired wishes.

As for

Aye, if the the 0.01% were really provoked by the presence of men and women in their barracks awaiting a pizza delivery, then they are yet again clearly sad, sad, living in the past scum.
To say the Republicans were provoked is a joke. The young boys were resting in their barracks hungry and looking forwards to eating - the likes of that was really provoking the republicans? - jeeze!!!

Ok, I can hear still those from the past "well this is all because there are British forces still up the north" or something to that sad equivalent. While I might not agree their right to be there if I feel those lands they stand on are ours and not English soil - I do expect ANY part of a country ruled and governed by any power, to at least have some of its forces stationed within its own lands as it still holds on to them.
To think otherwise, is just pure daftness.

Side issue: What was the something I'm supposed to have said which would be quote "which will be lost on the majority of people here"???
I think the other posters here would like that clarified also! I don't think they are not able to comprehend something I might have stated.
I might have been wrong but I do think they are quite able to understand something I've said and not be 'lost' on it!

I'm sorry but do you live in northern ireland? Because you are talking out of your absolute a**e. Alot of people up here do still consider it to be a provence under occupation.

Say, to use an example, France invaded Germany 50 years ago, took all the land off them, patrolled them with THEIR army, treated them like second class citizens, do you think they would still consider themselves to be under foreign occupation and try everything ot get out of it?

Cause that is still the situation up here. It's going to take a long, long time for tensions to die down, if they ever do.

And your comment about the I.R.A moving on is naive beyond belief. The IRA is still very much in operation, as are the majority of paramilitary groups up here.

Local-womanizer · 08-03-2009 01:31PM

At the end of the day,and as hard as it is to accept for some people here,the British goverment rule over Northern Ireland.Therefore if they want to send troops there that is their choice.

I know it was a stupid move sending the special units from the army over,but by the looks of it it was a justified move from the point of view that extremist groups where becoming more active.

At the end of the day,2 young men paid the price for something they most likely dident give a sh1te about and their families are now devastated by it.

midlandsmissus · 08-03-2009 01:32PM

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Not a thing, because I really don't give a damn aslong as its not on my street.

I spent many years travelling the world and can safety say I learnt more about the island of Ireland in those few years (mainly by meeting and hanging out with nordies) I've heard it all, free state bastards and ye left us here. Which is true.

THE WAR IS OVER. My da or ma didn't have to be killed for me to have an opinion.
Talking about high horses...get real.

Not a thing, because I really don't give a damn aslong as its not on my street.
That one line sums up alot of peole in this country. Not on your street? It's not Iraq we're talking about here, it's Ireland, it's YOUR country. If people start dying again we can't bury our heads in the sand this time.

Biggins · 08-03-2009 01:35PM

To be fair Mairt has condemned the killings from what I have read.
We just disagree (peacefully) over issues.

Taking a step back, calmly and rationally thinking, nothing advantageous will be gained by the actions of those last night. Nothing.

While other so called republician groups might not say who the culprits were last night, they too won't appreciate the spotlight from the security forces and their investigation units now being re-directed upon them again more so.
Their money gathering, illegal operations could be further put under scrutiny and this alone will not be appreciated by all the other sides of this whole mess.

Its just a sad state of affairs that some are not willing to respect democratic rule and the choice given and taken by the people up north.
Bullies never win in the long run and people see them for what they are.

The condemnation of these killings are across borders, divisions, divides and people.
The people coming out in Antrim this morning in protest of the actions of last nights killers is just a clear indication of that.

Duffers · 08-03-2009 01:35PM

Bambi wrote: »

Hold on a minute I havent checked the news yet but I'm assuming these were british soldiers that were killed? You sign up and join an army, especially the british army, then you're accepting the risk that someones going to try shoot you. You're the one who's made the decision that you might die in service and lay that grief on your family.

It's hardly "slaughter" when you've been infinitely better trained, equipped and supported than the fookers that you're up against.

So because they joined the British Armed Forces, it's ok that they got shot?
A ridiculous point of view. People who join might take in to consideration that they may risk their lives on operations, but that is entirely different to being murdered at the main gate collecting a pizza.
It was a vile cowardly act in which civilians were injured. There is no justification for it, is there?

drunkmonkey · 08-03-2009 01:39PM

midlandsmissus wrote: »

what would you do?

I'd send the 400,000 odd people on the dole over the border for the week, unarmed. Presto the majority in now a minority, the balance has been tipped.

Terrontress · 08-03-2009 01:42PM

Local-womanizer wrote: »

I know it was a stupid move sending the special units from the army over

There are special forces in every developed nation. I am sure there are special forces in Northern Ireland who are monitoring potential threats linked to extreme Islamic movements.

There are definitely special forces (SBS) who patrol the entrance to Belfast port. If you ever take the ferry, you can sometimes see them darting about in dark speedboats. They are even in Carlingford Lough, which borders Louth.

Everyone seems to be in agreement that dissident republicans are an issue and need to be stopped and that the loss of two human beings and the injuries sustained by a pizza delivery guy earning minimum wage. Why not use the state's trained apparatus to do that?

I don't see an issue whatsoever with special forces operating in Northern Ireland providing they are not doing so ultra vires.

Biggins · 08-03-2009 01:44PM

midlandsmissus wrote: »

I'm sorry but do you live in northern ireland? Because you are talking out of your absolute a**e. Alot of people up here do still consider it to be a provence under occupation.

Say, to use an example, France invaded Germany 50 years ago, took all the land off them, patrolled them with THEIR army, treated them like second class citizens, do you think they would still consider themselves to be under foreign occupation and try everything ot get out of it?

Cause that is still the situation up here. It's going to take a long, long time for tensions to die down, if they ever do.

And your comment about the I.R.A moving on is naive beyond belief. The IRA is still very much in operation, as are the majority of paramilitary groups up here.

I take it you meant Germany invaded France, not the other way around. Yes, Germany had troops on the ground, hour by daily hour marching up and down but that was 50 years ago as you rightly point out.

The truth is now that the people of Northern Ireland have voted and remain politically attached by democratic means, to mainland Britain. The British Army might still be a presence up there but the only ones they are a threat to, is those that have evil in mind and action.
The troops no longer are stomping the main streets of the 6 counties, hour by hour. They have moved on, just like the majority of the Northern Irish people have moved on.

Yes. I acknowledge that the IRA is still in existence, never said it wasn't. They however HAVE chosen a peaceful route - I do also acknowledge that they are still in operation when it comes to finance gathering methods. However this is to take care of their own and while I don't agree with their ways, I do acknowledge the more peaceful route they have taken than what has gone before.

They of all the terrorist groups, had and maybe still has, the best political thinkers and strategists of our present generation - and they too eventually saw that the road of consistent fighting, was a road leading to nowhere.
There is a lesson to be learned there by those that have the acumen and clear sight to do so.

RoundTower · 08-03-2009 01:45PM

so a few more trained killers have been killed while just doing their job.

I don't care about them any more than I do when it's some gang member in Limerick.

edit: and before anyone says it, no I don't want to see a return to the Troubles, I just don't care much for the lives of professional killers.

GhostInTheRuins · 08-03-2009 01:51PM

Duffers wrote: »

So because they joined the British Armed Forces, it's ok that they got shot?
A ridiculous point of view. People who join might take in to consideration that they may risk their lives on operations, but that is entirely different to being murdered at the main gate collecting a pizza.
It was a vile cowardly act in which civilians were injured. There is no justification for it, is there?

If I was considering joining any army, my main concern would be the possibility of getting killed.

I also find it highly unlikely that anyone in the base actually ordered a pizza in the first place. To me it seems like there was a ridiculous lack of security that a group of lads pretending to be delivering a pizza could just stroll into an army base and open fire.

Harolds+ · 08-03-2009 01:52PM

Question is : What were those soldiers doing there?

and coinciding with Hugh Orde saying that there will be undercover Army (death squads) monitoring nationalists

You are just giving these dissident groups the ammo (excuse the pun) they are looking for

We all know about British intelligence : shoot to kill; Jean Charles de Menendes etc

Biggins · 08-03-2009 01:56PM

GhostInTheRuins wrote: »

If I was considering joining any army, my main concern would be the possibility of getting killed.

I also find it highly unlikely that anyone in the base actually ordered a pizza in the first place. To me it seems like there was a ridiculous lack of security that a group of lads pretending to be delivering a pizza could just stroll into an army base and open fire.

Just to clarify things:

Sky News' Vicki Hawthorne, who is at the scene, said: "Initial reports suggested that a pizza delivery van spotted at the scene had something to do with this - but the police have completely ruled this out.
"Reports are that this was some kind of drive-by shooting carried out at the gates of Massereene barracks.

Source: HERE

kleefarr · 08-03-2009 02:02PM

Iolar wrote: »

They were trained by the Yanks

Oh feck! We don't need any friendly fire incidents.

sock puppet · 08-03-2009 02:03PM

Harolds+ wrote: »

Question is : What were those soldiers doing there?

and coinciding with Hugh Orde saying that there will be undercover Army (death squads) monitoring nationalists

You are just giving these dissident groups the ammo (excuse the pun) they are looking for

We all know about British intelligence : shoot to kill; Jean Charles de Menendes etc

Eh? He was shot by the police. Nothing whatsoever to do with the special forces.

Harolds+ · 08-03-2009 02:04PM

Skynews is the worst tabloid news which constantly misinforms and distorts its News.

Al Jazeera is a great source or RTÉ

ejmaztec · 08-03-2009 02:04PM

Reluctantly bringing the "R" into this, we're going to be financially screwed as it is, paying for the country's deficit, without adding billions more to cover the cost of the increased security measures involved in keeping tabs on these people and their actiivities.

Biggins · 08-03-2009 02:07PM

Harolds+ wrote: »

Skynews is the worst tabloid news which constantly misinforms and distorts its News.

You might be right (side issue) but they were quoting named sources.
Also the pizza men (2) delivering were shot also.

RoundTower · 08-03-2009 02:08PM

Harolds+ wrote: »

Question is : What were those soldiers doing there?

easy question. They are there "to keep order".

Now Northern Ireland already has a police force, the PSNI, whose duty is to keep order in the North. So why need the British army too? There are two simple differences between the PSNI and the British army:

1. The army are trained to kill people
2. The PSNI has to recruit Catholics, while the army are 100% loyalist

Harolds+ · 08-03-2009 02:09PM

sock puppet wrote: »

Eh? He was shot by the police. Nothing whatsoever to do with the special forces.

His movements were monitored from his house to the tube station.

Therefore they were gathering intelligence on his movements.

They were special forces as they were carrying arms. Police in England are mainly unarmed

ejmaztec · 08-03-2009 02:13PM

Harolds+ wrote: »

His movements were monitored from his house to the tube station.

Therefore they were gathering intelligence on his movements.

They were special forces as they were carrying arms. Police in England are mainly unarmed

They were cops with guns. Had they been special forces, most of the court case would have been held in secret, or not at all.

Nodin · 08-03-2009 02:13PM

Just so we're clear.....

The shootings occurred at the Massereene army base in Antrim, 16 miles north of Belfast, at 9.40pm last night. Police said the shots were fired as a pizza delivery was being made, but dismissed earlier reports that the gunmen were disguised as the delivery men.

The investigating officer, Detective Superintendent Derek Williamson, today said the gunmen fired one burst with automatic weapons then walked forward and shot the victims as they lay on the ground. The two soldiers killed were both aged in their early twenties, and were due to fly to Afghanistan on active service in the coming days. The pizza delivery men were also described as young.

(my bold and underline)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/mar/08/northern-ireland-soldiers-killed-antrim

luckat · 08-03-2009 02:13PM

midlandsmissus wrote: »

4) People down south are VERY unpopular with the CATHOLICS up here for the following reasons. They say: we left them to die at the hands of the english. When there was so much suffering up here during the troubles, what did we do? Absolutely nothing.

Not absolutely true. For instance, in the days of sectarian burnings-out, a lot of southerners - many of them artists, actors, musicians, etc - went and stayed with Northern families for months on end to protect them and also to contribute to their income.

Frankly, for Northerners and southerners to get edgy at each other is silly, and symptomatic of "the differences carefully fostered by an alien government".

gurramok · 08-03-2009 02:17PM

Biggins wrote: »

The truth is now that the people of Northern Ireland have voted and remain politically attached by democratic means, to mainland Britain.

Would you just stop insulting Ireland by calling Britain the mainland?

It ain't helping your argument.

Terrontress wrote:

I don't see an issue whatsoever with special forces operating in Northern Ireland providing they are not doing so ultra vires.

Because they have had a bad history in the Nationalist population, thats why.
All it takes is some mistake in shooting some innocent nationalist lad by these special forces and there goes support for the security forces from the nationalist population, its too big a risk to take.

luckat · 08-03-2009 02:17PM

sock puppet wrote: »

Eh? (John Charles de Menezes) was shot by the police. Nothing whatsoever to do with the special forces.

sock puppet, there was a documentary about this shooting recently; the poor guy was trailed by an intelligence unit that repeatedly offered to arrest him while he was out in the open (they were under the impression that he was a wanted Arab activist thought likely to be a suicide bomber).

This was repeatedly refused by their bosses, who told them to stand down and sent in an 'armed response unit', all jizzed up by orders to do anything necessary, etc. These just pounced on the guy as he sat there in a Tube train with its doors open among other people, wrestled him down and shot him many times in the head as he screamed and struggled and protested.

The whole thing was a horrible hames resulting from people getting hysterical about terrorist threats.

Harolds+ · 08-03-2009 02:19PM

ejmaztec wrote: »

They were cops with guns. Had they been special forces, most of the court case would have been held in secret, or not at all.

Maybe in Iraq or Afghanistan but not these days. However, the police conducted its own inquiry into his murder so I will give you some credit for that

javaboy · 08-03-2009 02:19PM

gurramok wrote: »

Would you just stop insulting Ireland by calling Britain the mainland?

It ain't helping your argument.

I think you might be being a little over sensitive. He didn't call that big land mass to the east "the mainland" per se. He said it's "mainland Britain" which it is.

marmurr1916 · 08-03-2009 02:21PM

Dodgykeeper wrote: »

DO we have examples of miscarriges of justice where innocent people were locked up for years for crimes they didnt commit!

Nicky Kelly.

McBreartys.

Thousands of un-named women and children who were locked up in Magdalen Laundries, industrial/reform schools and/or mental hospitals for having sex/getting pregnant outside of marriage or being poor...

There's no excuse for the murder of these two British soldiers.

There's no excuse for the attempted murder of two other British soldiers.

And there's absolutely no excuse whatsoever for the attempted murder of the two innocent civilians, the pizza delivery men:

'It's clear from what we know at this stage that the terrorists not only wanted to kill soldiers who were there last night, but also tried to kill those two pizza delivery men.

'The gunmen, having fired an initial volley of shots, moved forward when people were on the ground and fired additional shots at those people on the ground.'

Is trying to kill pizza delivery staff the type of republicanism espoused by Wolfe Tone? Is it the type of republicanism espoused by James Connolly? Is it likely to bring a united Ireland any closer?

The people who did this aren't republicans. They're sick, cowardly scum. May they get the justice they deserve.

Biggins · 08-03-2009 02:21PM

gurramok wrote: »

Would you just stop insulting Ireland by calling Britain the mainland?

Respectfully, I was ONLY speaking of the political attachment of Northern Ireland to mainland Britain.
I apologise unreservedly if I haven't made that clear enough for you or anyone.
(I'd have thought it would be clear to others - maybe I was wrong.)

2 Dead several others shot outside Army base Antrim

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