"Big bang" exercises sapping my energy for long distance running

Antisocialiser · 03-03-2009 11:46PM #1

Hey guys im pretty new to the whole weights thing but ive been tryin to put on muscle and burn fat for GAA. I usually do weights on a friday and a sunday at the minute im doin:

Night one
5 sets of 8 squats
5 sets of 8 benchpress
mixture of dips, chins, lunges etc

Night two
5 sets of 8 deadlift
5 sets of 8 shoulder press
mixture of dips, chins, lunges etc

The problem is when i train with the footballers on tuesday and thursday (at the minute we are doing long distance running followed by sprints e.g. at the end of every training 4 minutes jog followed by 1 minute flat out sprint) I seem to start out feeling powerful but very quickly fatigue sets in and i fall behind to people i know im much fitter than.

I drink about 2-3 litres of water a day and eat mostly meat and veg for dinner and a protein based brekky, maybe have a sandwich for lunch and usually let myself have a couple of bickies during the day though. I also take a green defense drink after brekky.

Can anyone give me any tips to recovery for muscles as it seems to be the squat and deadlift that leave my legs feelin sapped? Im just assuming that its a lack of recovery routine after weights which is affecting my cardio.
Thanks in advance :pac:

Roper · 04-03-2009 12:23AM

What's the point of the 4 minute jog, 1 minute sprint thing?

The Guvnor · 04-03-2009 12:52AM

Maybe try and do the weights Monday and Friday?

Failing that try getting more carbs into you before during and after sessions. Get some maltodextrin or similar.

Your issue could simply be one of not enough kcals for the energy expenditure.

Mikel · 04-03-2009 12:55AM

Antisocialiser wrote: »

The problem is when i train with the footballers on tuesday and thursday (at the minute we are doing long distance running followed by sprints e.g. at the end of every training 4 minutes jog followed by 1 minute flat out sprint)

Ah the joy of laps, I remember it well......
If I could have that time back again.....

5 sets of 8 sounds like a lot.
Is it general fatigue you suffer from or is it soreness?

It could just be adjusting to the training if you're new to it.

Your more immediate problem is getting out of the 4 min jog 1 min sprint thing

Brian? · 04-03-2009 09:21AM

Why are you doing 5 sets of 8? It seems like a lot. Try doing 3x8 instead.

Are you eating and sleeping enough to recover?

Transform · 04-03-2009 11:25AM

workouts too close together and what are your stats? Weight, height and weights your lifting on those exercises

Antisocialiser · 04-03-2009 12:41PM

Im 5"9 and probably about 11 and a half stone. I start out lighter and always finish with a weight i cant lift and therefore fail at:
Squat: 60
Benchpress: 55
Shoulder press: 37.5
Deadlift: 85

I prob get about 9-10hrs a night sleep and I dont eat monstrous amounts of carbs because Im tryin to lose weight from my mid section:
Breakfast: 3 scrambled eggs
Lunch: Chicken and lettuce sandwich
Dinner: Steak, green beans, baby boiled potatoes.

I usually eat more carbs like cereal or brown bread toast after training.

With regards to the laps its not soreness while running its that i genuinely have nothing left and really labour around the pitch. While tryin to fit in 2 sessions of weights and 2 football trainings i dont know how i could structure it better cause i leave 2 nights inbetween my last weights and my first cardio.

corkcomp · 04-03-2009 12:49PM

Antisocialiser wrote: »

Im 5"9 and probably about 11 and a half stone. I start out lighter and always finish with a weight i cant lift and therefore fail at:
Squat: 60
Benchpress: 55
Shoulder press: 37.5
Deadlift: 85

I prob get about 9-10hrs a night sleep and I dont eat monstrous amounts of carbs because Im tryin to lose weight from my mid section:
Breakfast: 3 scrambled eggs
Lunch: Chicken and lettuce sandwich
Dinner: Steak, green beans, baby boiled potatoes.

I usually eat more carbs like cereal or brown bread toast after training.

With regards to the laps its not soreness while running its that i genuinely have nothing left and really labour around the pitch. While tryin to fit in 2 sessions of weights and 2 football trainings i dont know how i could structure it better cause i leave 2 nights inbetween my last weights and my first cardio.

your right to time carbs around workouts but based on your activity level you should def have some wholegrain carbs for breakfast like porridge and maybe some fruit .. What your describing sounds like a lack of carbs TBH .. you wont notice when doing lighter cardio but I find if I really push myself I cant do it without eatting a lot of carbs (good ones!)

Racing Flat · 04-03-2009 12:52PM

Antisocialiser wrote: »

Im 5"9 and probably about 11 and a half stone. I start out lighter and always finish with a weight i cant lift and therefore fail at:
Squat: 60
Benchpress: 55
Shoulder press: 37.5
Deadlift: 85

I prob get about 9-10hrs a night sleep and I dont eat monstrous amounts of carbs because Im tryin to lose weight from my mid section:
Breakfast: 3 scrambled eggs
Lunch: Chicken and lettuce sandwich
Dinner: Steak, green beans, baby boiled potatoes.

I usually eat more carbs like cereal or brown bread toast after training.

With regards to the laps its not soreness while running its that i genuinely have nothing left and really labour around the pitch. While tryin to fit in 2 sessions of weights and 2 football trainings i dont know how i could structure it better cause i leave 2 nights inbetween my last weights and my first cardio.

Maybe you need some more carbs during the day. Healthy complex carbs, you'll still be able to put on muscle and lose fat eating healthy carbs. It's not like you're just bulking, you need to be able to run for 60 mins with sprints thrown in every so often, you'll need energy for this.

thirtyfoot · 04-03-2009 01:44PM

Roper wrote: »

What's the point of the 4 minute jog, 1 minute sprint thing?

It depends on what stage of their season they are at but there can be benefits to doing this type of segment run in an early conditioning phase. I do it early season and its a good lead into doing more intensive tempo sessions. I'm not sure what the anerobic/aerobic breakdown of GAA is but when you consider that sprinters who compete in what appears to be an anerobic focused event will do sessions like this then I could see there being some value assuming the coach is doing it for that reason and using it as a gateway session to get his players ready for more intensive training. Thats a big assumption I know without seeing what the coach may have planned for the next 3 or 4 months.

brianon · 04-03-2009 02:08PM

Tingle wrote: »

I'm not sure what the anerobic/aerobic breakdown of GAA is but when you consider that sprinters who compete in what appears to be an anerobic focused event will do sessions like this then I could see there being some value assuming...

I don't know what the transfer of training is in doing 4 minutes jog + 1 minute sprint to football is. Sprinters would be training for 100m + (ok so there are 60m indoor events). GAA players make I think about 14m sprints on average.

thirtyfoot · 04-03-2009 02:32PM

brianon wrote: »

). GAA players make I think about 14m sprints on average.

Very true, but how much of a game are they running at a very low intensity like jogging or how many times will they do those 14m sprints or how many times will do they a 50 or 60m sprint. My point is that GAA has a higher aerobic requirement than sprinting and yet many sprinters will do training like this (at a certain stage of the season). I'm saying it can be useful as a gateway to moving onto more intensive training and not as the sole basis of training. Just because its no longer fashionable to do the ould laps around a field doesn't mean aerobic work (at a certain stage of a season) is not a useful training tool for GAA (disclaimer: I've never coached a GAA team so I could be talking out of my ass!)

Procasinator · 04-03-2009 02:48PM

Antisocialiser wrote: »

I start out lighter and always finish with a weight i cant lift and therefore fail at

Consider not training to failure.

There are plenty of research to show that training to failure is not only not always the best way to go but also that it can be detrimental. Whether this is the case or not, recovery time needed is going be greater when training to failure.

If you are finding your weight-lifting programme is interfering with other needs and objectives, mix it up. Maybe add more volume (higher reps, maybe even more sets) and don't train to failure. I don't mean take it easy on yourself by any means, just drop back a bit and stop shocking your central nervous system. You can still make gains.

brianon · 04-03-2009 03:25PM

Tingle wrote: »

Very true, but how much of a game are they running at a very low intensity like jogging or how many times will they do those 14m sprints or how many times will do they a 50 or 60m sprint. My point is that GAA has a higher aerobic requirement than sprinting and yet many sprinters will do training like this (at a certain stage of the season). I'm saying it can be useful as a gateway to moving onto more intensive training and not as the sole basis of training. Just because its no longer fashionable to do the ould laps around a field doesn't mean aerobic work (at a certain stage of a season) is not a useful training tool for GAA (disclaimer: I've never coached a GAA team so I could be talking out of my ass!)

Getting OT, sorry ...

*granted this is from inter-county 'hurling' study.

Standing - 10%
Walks - 45%
Walk Back - 4%
Jog - 20%
Thats a grand total of 79% spent at jog or less. And mostly less

The rest...
Strinding - 12%
Sprint - 3%
Run back - 1%
Sideways covering - 2%

Actually if you break 4min jog with 1min thats 80% to 20%. Almost exactly as above. hmmm ... not helping my argument here

But seriously, thats 14 minutes out of 70 minutes spent > jog.

In my limited opinion I would think that the problem for a GAA player would not be fatigue from Long sprints...because there aren't many, but rather from the physicality of the game. So allot of the time the striding, jogging, walking might involve a tackle or changes of direction.

Running long distances is not gonna help that. A 4 minute jog with 1 minute sprint would probably see you do near to 700m ?

(disclaimer: I've never coached a GAA team so I could be talking out of my ass!)

btw ... I'll add your disclaimer to mine

Too get right back OT...

Night one
5 sets of 8 squats
5 sets of 8 benchpress
mixture of dips, chins, lunges etc

Night two
5 sets of 8 deadlift
5 sets of 8 shoulder press
mixture of dips, chins, lunges etc

Thats BIG volume.

Im 5"9 and probably about 11 and a half stone. I start out lighter and always finish with a weight i cant lift and therefore fail at:
Squat: 60
Benchpress: 55
Shoulder press: 37.5
Deadlift: 85

11.5 stone = 73kg. Are those weights your 1RM or your 8RM ?
What are your 1 or 3RMs ?

Transform · 04-03-2009 03:41PM

i have just done reviews with two gaa guys (one from meath and other from longford team) both do two weights sessions when they do not have games at weekend and one session with game at weekend.

you need to bang in wayyyyyyy more carbs after and during all training sessions - please tell me your using carb drinks or bananas in every session your doing? If not then please start today.

At your height and weight you need to eat more good carbs - e.g. fruit, veg, oats and in general more carbs on the football training days.

The challenge duing soccer or gaa seasons is to keep your weight up for all the season - if you do not then your dropping muscle which means loss of power, strength and speed.

Roper · 04-03-2009 07:07PM

Tingle wrote: »

It depends on what stage of their season they are at but there can be benefits to doing this type of segment run in an early conditioning phase. I do it early season and its a good lead into doing more intensive tempo sessions. I'm not sure what the anerobic/aerobic breakdown of GAA is but when you consider that sprinters who compete in what appears to be an anerobic focused event will do sessions like this then I could see there being some value assuming the coach is doing it for that reason and using it as a gateway session to get his players ready for more intensive training. Thats a big assumption I know without seeing what the coach may have planned for the next 3 or 4 months.

Yeah I can see some benefit for laying down an aerobic base but I've always wondered why people wouldn't just use game play. I know team HRMs are expensive so there's no real hope of doing it with those but you could play small pitch games etc. to keep intensity high.

I don't really criticise these things because you can take any session out of context without knowing where it sits in the grand plan and it would look stupid. It does look like bog standard GAA pre-season though.

brianon wrote:

In my limited opinion I would think that the problem for a GAA player would not be fatigue from Long sprints...because there aren't many, but rather from the physicality of the game. So allot of the time the striding, jogging, walking might involve a tackle or changes of direction.

I think you're looking at the figures from the wrong perspective. The way you're seeing the figures implies that jogging is the most important because it forms the bulk of the player's time, but analysis shows that the important stuff is the 5-15m sprints. Som aerobic base is required obviously but actual match winning game play is done at full anaerobic tilt.
Hurling is not my forté I'm just an armchair viewer, but I've never seen a hurler jog any distance in posession of the ball. The ...
Striding - 12%
Sprint - 3%
Run back - 1%
Sideways covering - 2%
... is the important stuff as it's going to be a player's speed to the ball, their acceleration away from a marker or their ability to cut left and right that's going to score or prevent a score.

One of my favourite footballers of the last decade is Colin Corkery. Would he have run a marathon? Or even a 5k in a good time? No, but he could give any defender a rattle over 5 metres and frequently did.

Antisocialiser · 04-03-2009 07:17PM

11.5 stone = 73kg. Are those weights your 1RM or your 8RM ?
What are your 1 or 3RMs ?

brianon ive never heard about 1RM etc but i take it you mean rep max?

For example the first deadlift ill lift 8 reps of 70, then 8 reps of 75, then 8 reps of 80, then 6-8 reps of 82.5 then maybe 6 reps of 85, you know raising it each time and failing on last couple. Im not sure what weight I could lift just for one rep but for the deadlift I would imagine it would be 100 or so(again ive never tried so im not sure).

you need to bang in wayyyyyyy more carbs after and during all training sessions - please tell me your using carb drinks or bananas in every session your doing? If not then please start today.

Eh i havent been doin any of this, i just drink water and then maybe a brown bread chicken or ham sandwich after for what i thought was a good mix of carbs and protein. Could you recommend me a carb drink? Last night at training i thieved some lucozade sport tablets - mix of carbs and creatine and was told to take 2 after every training would this be good? not sure if im supposed to take them after weights or cardio too?

At your height and weight you need to eat more good carbs - e.g. fruit, veg, oats and in general more carbs on the football training days.

Do you mean im too light for my height? ive been tryin to lose a bit of fat on my belly and chest which is why im tryin to skip carbs in places

blackgold>> · 04-03-2009 07:55PM

Antisocialiser wrote:

Hey guys im pretty new to the whole weights thing but ive been tryin to put on muscle and burn fat for GAA. I usually do weights on a friday and a sunday at the minute im doin:

Night one
5 sets of 8 squats
5 sets of 8 benchpress
mixture of dips, chins, lunges etc

Night two
5 sets of 8 deadlift
5 sets of 8 shoulder press
mixture of dips, chins, lunges etc

The problem is when i train with the footballers on tuesday and thursday (at the minute we are doing long distance running followed by sprints e.g. at the end of every training 4 minutes jog followed by 1 minute flat out sprint) I seem to start out feeling powerful but very quickly fatigue sets in and i fall behind to people i know im much fitter than.

I drink about 2-3 litres of water a day and eat mostly meat and veg for dinner and a protein based brekky, maybe have a sandwich for lunch and usually let myself have a couple of bickies during the day though. I also take a green defense drink after brekky.

Can anyone give me any tips to recovery for muscles as it seems to be the squat and deadlift that leave my legs feelin sapped? Im just assuming that its a lack of recovery routine after weights which is affecting my cardio.
Thanks in advance

Antisocialiser wrote:

Im 5"9 and probably about 11 and a half stone. I start out lighter and always finish with a weight i cant lift and therefore fail at:

Your lifting to heavy for a start.As you said yourself you can't even finish sets.Either drop down 10% on each or lower reps to 5. Plus you should not be doing the strenght training at the start of gaa training.You should be doing that when your not playing gaa ie when the seasons over.
It's either one or the other. I'd drop the deadlift and squats.
Obviously you can strenght train while doing gaa, but your doing it arse ways.

Antisocialiser · 04-03-2009 10:06PM

Your lifting to heavy for a start.As you said yourself you can't even finish sets.Either drop down 10% on each or lower reps to 5. Plus you should not be doing the strenght training at the start of gaa training.You should be doing that when your not playing gaa ie when the seasons over.
It's either one or the other. I'd drop the deadlift and squats.
Obviously you can strenght train while doing gaa, but your doing it arse ways.

Thats why im lifting heavy so i fail and therefore put on muscle... the point is not to be able to finish the reps by the last set, if im lifting real good ill put on heavier so the last set i cant do.

What weights should i be doing that isnt arse ways while playin GAA twice a week?

Antisocialiser · 05-03-2009 12:05AM

please tell me your using carb drinks or bananas in every session your doing? If not then please start today.

Also sorry for posting twice in a row but could someone link me to a good PWO shake for weights or cardio?

brianon · 05-03-2009 11:28AM

Roper wrote: »

I think you're looking at the figures from the wrong perspective. The way you're seeing the figures implies that jogging is the most important because it forms the bulk of the player's time, but analysis shows that the important stuff is the 5-15m sprints. Som aerobic base is required obviously but actual match winning game play is done at full anaerobic tilt.
Hurling is not my forté I'm just an armchair viewer, but I've never seen a hurler jog any distance in posession of the ball. The ...
Striding - 12%
Sprint - 3%
Run back - 1%
Sideways covering - 2%
... is the important stuff as it's going to be a player's speed to the ball, their acceleration away from a marker or their ability to cut left and right that's going to score or prevent a score.

Thats what I was trying tp point out. Re-reading my post .. not sure I made a point though

Yeah. What I was saying was that the emphasis should be on shorter sprints. 79% of the time is jog or less. You wouldn't need to be putting in too much aerobic effort to cover that. And a 1 minute sprint when the average sprint distance is 14m ??? That makes little sense to me.

Its, as you say, about acceleration, speed, agility, deceleration, quickness and of course skill. That's where the emphasis should be.

So pre-season. Working on sprints. Not all straight lines either. 5 minutes of running...? don't see the reason for it.

Except for one thing ... that doing so at the end of a session (a 1 minute sprint that is) has only one goal. Its not gonna make anyone faster. That is a given. BUT it will improve speed endurance. But still... 1 minute.

If I was doing it I'd have 1 minute jog + 20 seconds sprint x 3 instead.

Racing Flat · 05-03-2009 12:18PM

Antisocialiser wrote: »

Could you recommend me a carb drink?

IIRC the drink should be between 6-8% carbohydrate i.e. 6-8g glucose per 100ml. Most of the commercial drinks lucozade sport, powerrade, gatorade etc. will fall into this range.

Transform · 05-03-2009 01:18PM

Racing Flat wrote: »

IIRC the drink should be between 6-8% carbohydrate i.e. 6-8g glucose per 100ml. Most of the commercial drinks lucozade sport, powerrade, gatorade etc. will fall into this range.

Exactly - and add in a protein whey drink from optimum nutrition (2 scoups) after every session (weight or football training).

Your weights program looks ok so do not bother to change that and yes you should aim to continue getting stronger but none of this will happen until you sort out the diet items as mentioned above.

Roper · 06-03-2009 12:38AM

brianon wrote: »

Thats what I was trying tp point out. Re-reading my post .. not sure I made a point though

Yeah. What I was saying was that the emphasis should be on shorter sprints. 79% of the time is jog or less. You wouldn't need to be putting in too much aerobic effort to cover that. And a 1 minute sprint when the average sprint distance is 14m ??? That makes little sense to me.

Its, as you say, about acceleration, speed, agility, deceleration, quickness and of course skill. That's where the emphasis should be.

So pre-season. Working on sprints. Not all straight lines either. 5 minutes of running...? don't see the reason for it.

Except for one thing ... that doing so at the end of a session (a 1 minute sprint that is) has only one goal. Its not gonna make anyone faster. That is a given. BUT it will improve speed endurance. But still... 1 minute.

If I was doing it I'd have 1 minute jog + 20 seconds sprint x 3 instead.

Okay I think we actually agree with each other, but I just misread your post a bit. I thought your implication was that the 79% was the important part!

I don't see the point either, but as I said earlier I'm wary of critiquing something I know little about, most of the lads I coach don't have a clue what it is they're doing and if they went away and explained one of their sessions they'd probably make me sound like an idiot.

"Big bang" exercises sapping my energy for long distance running

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