Muted reaction to cycle to work scheme?

Itsfixed · 01-03-2009 09:46PM #1

From the Sunday Times below, an article suggesting that there is little appetite for the cycle to work scheme. Not based on a conclusive survey or anything. I do agree there doesn't seem to be enough mainstream publicity for it.

However, I don't know if the journalist rung up any bike shops in dublin, cork or Galway city because the only cycle shop owner quoted here is in Ballinrobe, co. mayo! It wouldn't surprise me if there was little interest in the scheme from inhabitants in a very rural small town, at least at the moment.

Workers shun Greens’ bike bid

A green cycle to work scheme has failed to get on the road
Sarah McInerney

Two months after its introduction, not a single government department has taken advantage of the Green party’s tax-incentive scheme to promote cycling to work. The private sector response has been just as poor.

Calls to seven of the 10 companies voted “Best places to work in Ireland” revealed that only one has introduced the programme. Two said they were unlikely to do so, because of a lack of demand.

The plan, which allows employers and employees to claim back tax on the purchase of a cycle and equipment, has been available since January 1.

Ciaran Cuffe, a Green party TD, has discovered that no government department has made the scheme available to staff. Mary Coughlan, the enterprise minister, said her department had not made any plans to introduce the scheme and was awaiting instructions from the Department of Finance. The majority of other departments said they were “considering the detailed arrangements required to implement the scheme”.

The departments of environment and transport are the only two with plans to make the programme available to staff within a few weeks.

“I’m just conscious that this is something that could fall by the wayside if we don’t watch out,” said Cuffe. “We recently wrote to the Department of Finance and urged it to publicise the scheme. Now we’ve been told that it is going to issue a memo to all government departments to encourage them to sign up to it.”

The lack of publicity for the plan is one reason for the muted response, according to Eamon Marrey, of Marrey Bikes and Gizmos, in Ballinrobe, Co Mayo.

When it was first announced in October’s budget, Marrey put together “cycle-to-work” packages, in anticipation of consumer demand.

“We’ve sold the packages to just six people so far, considerably less than we had expected,” he said. “People don’t know anything about it. For example, there is one big employer in this area and we would have expected a lot of business from them. But their workers are asking us for information because their employer doesn’t know anything about it.”

Marrey said the economic climate was also a factor in the low take-up. “People just don’t have the money,” he said. “We thought we’d have some people buying new wheels for their old bikes, and trying to write it off under the scheme, but we haven’t even seen that.”

Lack of interest among employees is the reason cited for not introducing the programme in Sigmar Recruitment and Euro Car Parks, two of the top companies in the “best places to work” survey.

“We did a survey, and only one in 20 people was interested,” said Robert Mac Giolla Phadraig, the associate director of Sigmar. “People were saying the weather was too bad, the traffic was too dangerous and there was nowhere to store the bike. A lot of this stuff is taking second place to companies just trying to survive.”

Dave Cullen, chief executive of Euro Car Parks, said the company had tried to introduce a similar scheme two years ago, but that it received “zero response” from employees. “I think it’s a great idea in theory, but I’m not sure about the practicalities,” he said. “Ultimately, people are reluctant to give up their cars.”

Deloitte, another of the companies in the top-10 list, has introduced the scheme for its workers, while Microsoft Ireland hopes to have it operational within weeks. PricewaterhouseCoopers, Jones Lang LaSalle and Quintiles and Innovex all said that they were considering the details of the scheme. There was no response from the remaining three companies in the list.

Under the programme, an employer can purchase a bicycle and cycling accessories for an employee, up to the value of €1,000, and then claim back a percentage of this through pay related social insurance. Alternatively, workers can pay their employer for the bike by making contributions from their salary. The employee then benefits from tax relief.

The Revenue Commissioners said it would have to wait until tax returns had been filed for this year before estimating the take-up. According to the 2006 census, 1.9% of adults cycle to work.

blorg · 01-03-2009 10:15PM

I don't buy this, it's not as if "implementing" the scheme is a big deal, it should be no different administratively than the tax-free bus/train ticket thing. At root is it simply a tax-free benefit in kind that can be recouped from the employee's wages. If one employee has an interest, why would you not do it for them?

Caroline_ie · 01-03-2009 10:40PM

I talked about the scheme to the HR department where I work the 1st week of january, they said they were looking into it .. that it was a good idea and so on. but no news since, no info on the intranet, nothing.
I also spoke to a couple of colleagues of mine over the past few weeks, they really are not interrested in cycling to work, because of same reason quoted in the article, but I think the real reason is ' Ahh I couldn't be arsed'.
At the same time, the people who cycle to work ( from what I can see from the bike bike rack )use for 90% of them, beat up bikes, with no light, faulty brakes etc. There is maybe 10 or 12 bikes everyday in the rack... last november, i 'fixed' 2 bikes of people who were missing breaks and pedals, who asked me to have a look.
Even if the scheme is going to interrest 2% of the workers, why is it ' not worth it' to introduce it?

MagicMarker · 01-03-2009 10:49PM

I didn't even know this was in place from the 1st of January, there is absolutely no info about it at my job.

And even if I had a bike, I wouldn't cycle to work because there are no shower facilities.

In theory the scheme is great, but like most governmental endeavors, it's not very well thought out. The reason no one knows about it is because there's been no advertising (that i've seen), the only time I heard about it was when the budget came out, most people would have forgotten since then!

TinyExplosions · 01-03-2009 10:49PM

Based on nothing but my own hunch, I suspect that the reason could be the uncertain climate. If a company is uncertain if an employee will still be with them in a year, why would they fund a bike... I can see the conversation now: "I'm afraid we're going to have to let you go. You can get your last paycheck at the end of the month, minus the 800 quid you still owe us for the bike you got in January"

Húrin · 01-03-2009 10:50PM

The scheme is nonsense from the start. Nobody doesn't cycle because they can't a afford a bike, especially not those who can afford to drive cars. The other major problem is that it is clearly not an effective substitute for making the roads safer and more cycle-friendly - that's what would get people cycling to work.

leeroybrown · 01-03-2009 10:52PM

Never underestimate the difficulty in getting a 'simple' scheme through the administration of a lot of companies. I've seen the TaxSaver commuter scheme be a big problem in places. I've also see the UK Cycle to Work scheme in the UK being a big issue. A lot of large employers, particularly those in the public sector, will have incredible administrative interia towards any changes. A lot of smaller employers will view it as a luxury to be ignored.

Obviously, people who already cycle might consider getting a new bicycle but I'll certainly be keeping my money in my wallet for the near future and I'm guessing that many others will be too. If you look at the real target group I think it becomes very narrow quite quickly. Most novices would be reluctant to take to the roads of somewhere like Dublin. Those close to public transport have an alternative. Very few people would be willing to do anything close to the 20 km round-trip that I used to make. Very few people will see it as a reasonable option every day of the year. Most of the target market already have a car that they need for other purposes and will want to use for part of the year. Anyone who doesn't live a completely urban life will not find it practical.

Also, I'd have expected a scheme like this to have taken at least 12 months to take hold in good times let alone at the moment.

Raam · 01-03-2009 10:54PM

My place are very enthusiastic about the scheme and a few people have used it already, with a few more coming. The day it was announced our HR people were asking me how long before I was going to want a new bike!

TinyExplosions · 01-03-2009 10:55PM

Húrin wrote: »

The scheme is nonsense from the start. Nobody doesn't cycle because they can't a afford a bike, especially not those who can afford to drive cars. The other major problem is that it is clearly not an effective substitute for making the roads safer and more cycle-friendly - that's what would get people cycling to work.

I don't agree with that... the scheme is a success in the UK, and there's no reason why it shouldn't be a success here. I don't think it's the case that people can't afford a bike, but maybe that they can't justify the expense. It's one thing going out and spending a large chunk of your months disposable income on one, but another thing if it's essentially a 'hidden' cost that seems like you're getting a bike for free. I can see it encouraging more people to cycle, but only if it's advertised. Also, it's great for us that already commute, as it's a cheap way to get a nice bike!

To a certain extent, there's a chicken and egg situation going on with infrastructure: if there were more cyclists, facilities and such like would improve, and if the conditions for cyclists were better, more people would cycle -it's hard to see how to start this cycle (heh!) off.

TinyExplosions · 01-03-2009 10:57PM

Raam wrote: »

My place are very enthusiastic about the scheme and a few people have used it already, with a few more coming. The day it was announced our HR people were asking me how long before I was going to want a new bike!

When the boss in my place heard me talking about getting a MTB, he asked if I was going to do it on the cycle to work (he's a cayo man so it's ok!). He said he'd not looked into it, but wouldn't have any problem with implementing it if someone asked.

I guess the thing is that until someone asks for a bike on the scheme, companies may not do anything about it -they may even fob off enquiries if they think you're not serious

Húrin · 01-03-2009 10:58PM

TinyExplosions wrote: »

Based on nothing but my own hunch, I suspect that the reason could be the uncertain climate. If a company is uncertain if an employee will still be with them in a year, why would they fund a bike... I can see the conversation now: "I'm afraid we're going to have to let you go. You can get your last paycheck at the end of the month, minus the 800 quid you still owe us for the bike you got in January"

Yes, I think this is most likely to be true.

TinyExplosions wrote: »

To a certain extent, there's a chicken and egg situation going on with infrastructure: if there were more cyclists, facilities and such like would improve, and if the conditions for cyclists were better, more people would cycle -it's hard to see how to start this cycle (heh!) off.

Perhaps the political leadership that the greens claim to show could be used to start off the process. It's just false to think that giving people cheap bikes is more likely to work than the more difficult job of reforming the urban roads to make them more pro-cyclist. Typical government 'quick-fix' showy thinking.

Gavin · 01-03-2009 11:02PM

Húrin wrote: »

The scheme is nonsense from the start. Nobody doesn't cycle because they can't a afford a bike, especially not those who can afford to drive cars. The other major problem is that it is clearly not an effective substitute for making the roads safer and more cycle-friendly - that's what would get people cycling to work.

The scheme is an incentive. Making the road safer is a chicken and egg scenario. More cyclists makes it safer, but until more people cycle, it won't be safer. That's the perception anyway. The reality is that cycling in Dublin is not particularly dangerous.

Certainly the scheme should be advertised and cycling in general should be advertised. Badmouthing the scheme doesn't achieve much. It's a start, a decent start, it should be commended. If the Gov sees a positive response to it, they'll be more inclined to follow through with advertising, education etc.

Caroline_ie · 01-03-2009 11:16PM

Just thinking ... in reality, who would want to swap their car for a bike? I know myself I own a 2006 car, that I pay for every month but rarely use. It does drive me mad that I am paying so much money for nothing.
As well, many see cycling as a 'lower class' type of transportation, for those who can afford a car. I am pretty sure vanity has a lot to do with the lack of interrest from the public.
I cycle to work because I love cycling and it has become a way of life over the past year or so. Not many people with a car would cycle even just 13km to town to work of pleasure, to the restaurant or the movies when they have a car parked outside their door.
Should the scheme had been more advertised, would there have been more interrest from car/bus commuters? (bad grammar ...? )

blorg · 01-03-2009 11:19PM

As Verb says, it's an incentive. The tax system is often used to incentivise social goals and as Tiny says this has been succesful in the UK. The Green Party did produce a website at www.bikescheme.ie. Utimately though participation in the scheme is voluntary on the part of the employer so failure to implement it should sit firmly with them (your employer.)

Personally I would be happy to get my tax-free bike taken out of my (pre-tax) wages immediately, I don't particularly need the optional 12-month finance. Note the 12 months is simply a maximum.

Raam · 01-03-2009 11:20PM

Caroline_ie wrote: »

Just thinking ... in reality, who would want to swap their car for a bike?

3 or 4 people in work have stated their intentions to do this. Whether or not they actually do it is another question.

Traumadoc · 01-03-2009 11:25PM

HSE are not doing it outside of Dublin.

Húrin · 01-03-2009 11:32PM

Gavin wrote: »

The scheme is an incentive. Making the road safer is a chicken and egg scenario. More cyclists makes it safer, but until more people cycle, it won't be safer. That's the perception anyway. The reality is that cycling in Dublin is not particularly dangerous.

Certainly the scheme should be advertised and cycling in general should be advertised. Badmouthing the scheme doesn't achieve much. It's a start, a decent start, it should be commended. If the Gov sees a positive response to it, they'll be more inclined to follow through with advertising, education etc.

I know that cycling in Dublin is not dangerous, but until people see things like segregated cycling lanes, or fewer vans and trucks speeding down the roads, they will feel at risk and avoid cycling. The only major groups who seem to cycle are those who can't afford to drive or take the bus (students, low-paid migrants, the elderly) and the least risk-averse groups (young men, teens). If the government is serious about encouraging cycling, and I don't think it is, then it should make Irish cities and towns more like Copenhagen or Amsterdam.

Caroline_ie wrote: »

Just thinking ... in reality, who would want to swap their car for a bike?

People who are sick of sitting in traffic jams and paying top euro for petrol, insurance and parking, I expect.

Caroline_ie · 01-03-2009 11:39PM

Húrin wrote: »

If the government is serious about encouraging cycling, and I don't think it is, then it should make Irish cities and towns more like Copenhagen or Amsterdam.

Have you seen the cycle traffic in Coppenhagen? I wouldn't want to cycle there at all...

Húrin wrote: »

People who are sick of sitting in traffic jams and paying top euro for petrol, insurance and parking, I expect.

Yes, maybe you hear them rant about it, but >400 quid a month of car related payments ... most people want their money worth. (about asking people to leave their car at home )

We are all biased in this forum anyway, we all enjoy cycling too much. Try this in the Motor or the Commuting forum see what people say -

leeroybrown · 01-03-2009 11:45PM

Gavin wrote: »

The reality is that cycling in Dublin is not particularly dangerous.

Húrin wrote: »

I know that cycling in Dublin is not dangerous, but until people see things like segregated cycling lanes, or fewer vans and trucks speeding down the roads, they will feel at risk and avoid cycling.

I disagree to a certain degree. I'd be quite happy to cycle around Dublin but I'm an experienced cyclist who is very comfortable in traffic. For me Dublin wouldn't be particularly dangerous. For the kind of novice cyclist that this scheme ideally targets I'd say that certain parts of Dublin's roads could be very intimidating and potentially dangerous.

01-03-2009 11:54PM

Yeah, my HR hadn't heard of this scheme either until I mentioned it to them. Bikescheme.ie is good but I haven't seen it advertised anywhere. But still, it's all a step in the right direction (as long as the plan is to move in a certain direction!).

Húrin · 02-03-2009 02:52AM

leeroybrown wrote: »

I disagree to a certain degree. I'd be quite happy to cycle around Dublin but I'm an experienced cyclist who is very comfortable in traffic. For me Dublin wouldn't be particularly dangerous. For the kind of novice cyclist that this scheme ideally targets I'd say that certain parts of Dublin's roads could be very intimidating and potentially dangerous.

I'm also quite comfortable, but I'm talking about percieved danger rather than actual danger.

Húrin · 02-03-2009 02:53AM

Caroline_ie wrote: »

Have you seen the cycle traffic in Coppenhagen? I wouldn't want to cycle there at all...

Yes, I've seen it, and I think it's better than what we have.

petethedrummer · 02-03-2009 09:25AM

It might pick up in the spring/summer months, now that the day is getting noticeably longer. I'd also go along with Tiny that the economic uncertainty is having an effect.

Anyway, what did this journalist expect? that all of a sudden everyone's habits would change over night. I think there is a definite increase in cycling around Dublin over the past year, but that maybe cos my route to work has changed.

TinyExplosions · 02-03-2009 09:58AM

I think it should also be pointed out that we're only just into March -the scheme came in in January, and given the speed a lot of companies move at, it's conceivable that it could be towards the middle of the year before you see any real take up....

seamus · 02-03-2009 10:26AM

petethedrummer wrote: »

Anyway, what did this journalist expect? that all of a sudden everyone's habits would change over night. I think there is a definite increase in cycling around Dublin over the past year, but that maybe cos my route to work has changed.

Last week in particular it seemed to be very busy cycling in and out of work. That may have been the milder weather.

Speaking from the implementation side of a big company in Ireland, it's not that easy to administer for medium to large employers primarily because it requires the employer to get involved. If it was a case of an employee simply presenting a receipt, it would be dead simple. But because the employer essentially has to present themselves and their credit card at the shop*, that where the complexity arises.

It's also somewhat of a low priority for companies. The 1% income levy has caused a massive amount of pain for companies using automated payroll because of the screwed up way that the Government has applied it; they should have just raised the lower band by 1%. All of the big providers - SAP, Sage, Tas, etc - have had a nightmare actually updating their software to account for it, so payroll departments all over the country spent the last two months sweating over that rather than giving the cycle scheme any time.

I imagine that employers will eventually get around to it - they can save a bit of cash on it, but not nearly enough IMO. If the employer could write each bike off against their tax bill, you'd see them promoting it ridiculously quickly. At the moment all they get back is the employer's PRSI which on a €1k bike is at most €100. Spread that out over ten employees and you get back €1k over a year. Half of which would probably be the cost of implementing the thing in the first place.

*Obviously an arrangement can be made between the company and local shops, but that requires some will

ROK ON · 02-03-2009 10:34AM

The company that I work for is doing it.
But just some observations. I work for an Italian company, and I sometimes have to head to Milan.
I am always surprised as to how few cyclists that I see cycling around the streets of Milan versus Dublin. There are (IMO) far more cyclists on our roads (qualitatively speaking) than in Milan.
I see no reason why this scheme would not work other than complete inertia by an employer or employee.

WicklowRacer · 02-03-2009 10:35AM

I think most ppl who cycle have some sort of ulterior motive - want to get fitter, use it as training, cant stand traffic/public transport, are slightly odd whatever. This gets them over the hump that cycling as a method of commuting is a crap experience.

It doesnt matter how much incentive is put before the masses, cycling for commuters will never go mainstream. Negative incentives, like petrol at 20 yoyo/litre are another matter though...

I appreciate the good intent of the Government but I'm not surprised by the takeup figures.

Ryaner · 02-03-2009 10:42AM

I've swapped my car two days a week to cycle. Only bought the car last october too.

We did have a fair bit of interest in here too up till the first pay cheque arrived and people saw the lower amount. Most weren't willing to risk lowering it further knowing that more taxes would probably happen during the year.

Turbulent Bill · 02-03-2009 10:53AM

There's nothing inherently wrong with the scheme, and it's far too early to judge its success or failure - remember how bad the weather was lately? As a social measure to get more people cycling it's incomplete - you need parallel schemes for cyclist education, employer facilities etc. to get the full effect.

In terms of timing it couldn't be worse economically. Very few people who don't currently cycle will shell out €1000 (or even a few hundred) on a bike they mightn't use, while those who cycle already will hold on to their present one. I was all set to use the scheme this year when it was announced, but my employment situation is so uncertain that I'm holding off.

What might work is a combined time/money campaign to promote cycling, e.g., commuting by bike saves time, removes the need for gym membership, turns your commute into an exercise session so you have more time in the evenings etc.

Stark · 02-03-2009 11:09AM

Húrin wrote: »

The scheme is nonsense from the start. Nobody doesn't cycle because they can't a afford a bike, especially not those who can afford to drive cars. The other major problem is that it is clearly not an effective substitute for making the roads safer and more cycle-friendly - that's what would get people cycling to work.

It's a cyclic process. More people cycling means the roads become safer and more cyclist friendly due to safety in numbers, which in turn gets even more people cycling. We just need to tip the balance so that this process starts moving again. At the moment, we're losing cyclist numbers, which has led to cycling becoming such a minority pursuit that everyone else thinks you must be crazy to take a bike out in the city.

On the subject of the tax scheme, I was talking to someone who works in the Department of Finance and they won't be able to avail of the scheme till the middle of the year due to red tape. My company isn't allowed provide us with the scheme for the foreseeable future as they were told by Revenue to stop providing salary sacrifice scheme incentives due to the potential for abuse.

rubadub · 02-03-2009 11:10AM

blorg wrote: »

I don't buy this, it's not as if "implementing" the scheme is a big deal, it should be no different administratively than the tax-free bus/train ticket thing.

Yep, no different, and made out to be a huge big deal/hassle to some places! Also there are probably more availing of the ticket thing.

leeroybrown wrote: »

Never underestimate the difficulty in getting a 'simple' scheme through the administration of a lot of companies. I've seen the TaxSaver commuter scheme be a big problem in places.

Yep my place it was. A mate and a guy in work saying they would nearly prefer just paying the extra than having to deal with HR. I reckon some would be also scared of losing a % of their bonus since the employer would see it as such "ye got yer bike didn't ye? what more do you want, do you know the sh!t we had to go through?".

blorg wrote: »

If one employee has an interest, why would you not do it for them?

Because the lazy person in HR has to do more work than usual, they might be up to their eyes already. And do not tell me it will take 5 minutes to do or something! If you had a stopwatch on them I wonder how long it would take, how much they are paid per hour and what the real cost is. Cost of admin on usual sales in businesses can be huge and vastly underestimated.

At the moment all they get back is the employer's PRSI which on a €1k bike is at most €100.

Yes, and it could end up costing a lot more than that for the employer.

MagicMarker wrote: »

In theory the scheme is great, but like most governmental endeavors, it's not very well thought out.

I wounder how much the government has squandered invested in the scheme so far. I wonder if they did any market research and ask people how they thought it should be implemented.

Gavin wrote: »

Badmouthing the scheme doesn't achieve much. It's a start, a decent start, it should be commended. If the Gov sees a positive response to it, they'll be more inclined to follow through with advertising, education etc.

I would have liked to see it somehow out of the hands of HR depts. If they were anyway serious about encouraging people using bikes they would just scrap tax on them altogether, it is a FAR simpler concept, it would also have people buying bikes in Irish shops more. Why should only workers benefit if they want people on bikes instead of cars. Kids & the unemployed should be encouraged too, working people who might take a spin for exercise instead of driving to the gym and further clogging up traffic.

I have said in other threads if they were anyway serious about tackling obesity & bad health they would scrap tax on all fitness related equipment.

I think others are scared about being "caught", i.e. if it is pissing rain are they "allowed" drive to work? what if your bike is stolen in the first month (likely given the extremely lax garda views on bike theft & recovery). Are you then obliged to buy another bike to use for the year? If not people could buy it and sell it to their mate and claim it was nicked.

Muted reaction to cycle to work scheme?

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