Muted reaction to cycle to work scheme?

Itsfixed

From the Sunday Times below, an article suggesting that there is little appetite for the cycle to work scheme. Not based on a conclusive survey or anything. I do agree there doesn't seem to be enough mainstream publicity for it.

However, I don't know if the journalist rung up any bike shops in dublin, cork or Galway city because the only cycle shop owner quoted here is in Ballinrobe, co. mayo! It wouldn't surprise me if there was little interest in the scheme from inhabitants in a very rural small town, at least at the moment.

Workers shun Greens’ bike bid

A green cycle to work scheme has failed to get on the road
Sarah McInerney

Two months after its introduction, not a single government department has taken advantage of the Green party’s tax-incentive scheme to promote cycling to work. The private sector response has been just as poor.

Calls to seven of the 10 companies voted “Best places to work in Ireland” revealed that only one has introduced the programme. Two said they were unlikely to do so, because of a lack of demand.

The plan, which allows employers and employees to claim back tax on the purchase of a cycle and equipment, has been available since January 1.

Ciaran Cuffe, a Green party TD, has discovered that no government department has made the scheme available to staff. Mary Coughlan, the enterprise minister, said her department had not made any plans to introduce the scheme and was awaiting instructions from the Department of Finance. The majority of other departments said they were “considering the detailed arrangements required to implement the scheme”.

The departments of environment and transport are the only two with plans to make the programme available to staff within a few weeks.

“I’m just conscious that this is something that could fall by the wayside if we don’t watch out,” said Cuffe. “We recently wrote to the Department of Finance and urged it to publicise the scheme. Now we’ve been told that it is going to issue a memo to all government departments to encourage them to sign up to it.”

The lack of publicity for the plan is one reason for the muted response, according to Eamon Marrey, of Marrey Bikes and Gizmos, in Ballinrobe, Co Mayo.

When it was first announced in October’s budget, Marrey put together “cycle-to-work” packages, in anticipation of consumer demand.

“We’ve sold the packages to just six people so far, considerably less than we had expected,” he said. “People don’t know anything about it. For example, there is one big employer in this area and we would have expected a lot of business from them. But their workers are asking us for information because their employer doesn’t know anything about it.”

Marrey said the economic climate was also a factor in the low take-up. “People just don’t have the money,” he said. “We thought we’d have some people buying new wheels for their old bikes, and trying to write it off under the scheme, but we haven’t even seen that.”

Lack of interest among employees is the reason cited for not introducing the programme in Sigmar Recruitment and Euro Car Parks, two of the top companies in the “best places to work” survey.

“We did a survey, and only one in 20 people was interested,” said Robert Mac Giolla Phadraig, the associate director of Sigmar. “People were saying the weather was too bad, the traffic was too dangerous and there was nowhere to store the bike. A lot of this stuff is taking second place to companies just trying to survive.”

Dave Cullen, chief executive of Euro Car Parks, said the company had tried to introduce a similar scheme two years ago, but that it received “zero response” from employees. “I think it’s a great idea in theory, but I’m not sure about the practicalities,” he said. “Ultimately, people are reluctant to give up their cars.”

Deloitte, another of the companies in the top-10 list, has introduced the scheme for its workers, while Microsoft Ireland hopes to have it operational within weeks. PricewaterhouseCoopers, Jones Lang LaSalle and Quintiles and Innovex all said that they were considering the details of the scheme. There was no response from the remaining three companies in the list.

Under the programme, an employer can purchase a bicycle and cycling accessories for an employee, up to the value of €1,000, and then claim back a percentage of this through pay related social insurance. Alternatively, workers can pay their employer for the bike by making contributions from their salary. The employee then benefits from tax relief.

The Revenue Commissioners said it would have to wait until tax returns had been filed for this year before estimating the take-up. According to the 2006 census, 1.9% of adults cycle to work.

blorg

I don't buy this, it's not as if "implementing" the scheme is a big deal, it should be no different administratively than the tax-free bus/train ticket thing. At root is it simply a tax-free benefit in kind that can be recouped from the employee's wages. If one employee has an interest, why would you not do it for them?

Caroline_ie

I talked about the scheme to the HR department where I work the 1st week of january, they said they were looking into it .. that it was a good idea and so on. but no news since, no info on the intranet, nothing.
I also spoke to a couple of colleagues of mine over the past few weeks, they really are not interrested in cycling to work, because of same reason quoted in the article, but I think the real reason is ' Ahh I couldn't be arsed'.
At the same time, the people who cycle to work ( from what I can see from the bike bike rack )use for 90% of them, beat up bikes, with no light, faulty brakes etc. There is maybe 10 or 12 bikes everyday in the rack... last november, i 'fixed' 2 bikes of people who were missing breaks and pedals, who asked me to have a look.
Even if the scheme is going to interrest 2% of the workers, why is it ' not worth it' to introduce it?

MagicMarker

I didn't even know this was in place from the 1st of January, there is absolutely no info about it at my job.

And even if I had a bike, I wouldn't cycle to work because there are no shower facilities.

In theory the scheme is great, but like most governmental endeavors, it's not very well thought out. The reason no one knows about it is because there's been no advertising (that i've seen), the only time I heard about it was when the budget came out, most people would have forgotten since then!

TinyExplosions

Based on nothing but my own hunch, I suspect that the reason could be the uncertain climate. If a company is uncertain if an employee will still be with them in a year, why would they fund a bike... I can see the conversation now: "I'm afraid we're going to have to let you go. You can get your last paycheck at the end of the month, minus the 800 quid you still owe us for the bike you got in January"

Húrin

The scheme is nonsense from the start. Nobody doesn't cycle because they can't a afford a bike, especially not those who can afford to drive cars. The other major problem is that it is clearly not an effective substitute for making the roads safer and more cycle-friendly - that's what would get people cycling to work.

leeroybrown

Never underestimate the difficulty in getting a 'simple' scheme through the administration of a lot of companies. I've seen the TaxSaver commuter scheme be a big problem in places. I've also see the UK Cycle to Work scheme in the UK being a big issue. A lot of large employers, particularly those in the public sector, will have incredible administrative interia towards any changes. A lot of smaller employers will view it as a luxury to be ignored.

Obviously, people who already cycle might consider getting a new bicycle but I'll certainly be keeping my money in my wallet for the near future and I'm guessing that many others will be too. If you look at the real target group I think it becomes very narrow quite quickly. Most novices would be reluctant to take to the roads of somewhere like Dublin. Those close to public transport have an alternative. Very few people would be willing to do anything close to the 20 km round-trip that I used to make. Very few people will see it as a reasonable option every day of the year. Most of the target market already have a car that they need for other purposes and will want to use for part of the year. Anyone who doesn't live a completely urban life will not find it practical.

Also, I'd have expected a scheme like this to have taken at least 12 months to take hold in good times let alone at the moment.

Raam

My place are very enthusiastic about the scheme and a few people have used it already, with a few more coming. The day it was announced our HR people were asking me how long before I was going to want a new bike!

TinyExplosions

Húrin wrote: »

The scheme is nonsense from the start. Nobody doesn't cycle because they can't a afford a bike, especially not those who can afford to drive cars. The other major problem is that it is clearly not an effective substitute for making the roads safer and more cycle-friendly - that's what would get people cycling to work.

I don't agree with that... the scheme is a success in the UK, and there's no reason why it shouldn't be a success here. I don't think it's the case that people can't afford a bike, but maybe that they can't justify the expense. It's one thing going out and spending a large chunk of your months disposable income on one, but another thing if it's essentially a 'hidden' cost that seems like you're getting a bike for free. I can see it encouraging more people to cycle, but only if it's advertised. Also, it's great for us that already commute, as it's a cheap way to get a nice bike!

To a certain extent, there's a chicken and egg situation going on with infrastructure: if there were more cyclists, facilities and such like would improve, and if the conditions for cyclists were better, more people would cycle -it's hard to see how to start this cycle (heh!) off.

TinyExplosions

Raam wrote: »

My place are very enthusiastic about the scheme and a few people have used it already, with a few more coming. The day it was announced our HR people were asking me how long before I was going to want a new bike!

When the boss in my place heard me talking about getting a MTB, he asked if I was going to do it on the cycle to work (he's a cayo man so it's ok!). He said he'd not looked into it, but wouldn't have any problem with implementing it if someone asked.

I guess the thing is that until someone asks for a bike on the scheme, companies may not do anything about it -they may even fob off enquiries if they think you're not serious

Húrin

TinyExplosions wrote: »

Based on nothing but my own hunch, I suspect that the reason could be the uncertain climate. If a company is uncertain if an employee will still be with them in a year, why would they fund a bike... I can see the conversation now: "I'm afraid we're going to have to let you go. You can get your last paycheck at the end of the month, minus the 800 quid you still owe us for the bike you got in January"

Yes, I think this is most likely to be true.

TinyExplosions wrote: »

To a certain extent, there's a chicken and egg situation going on with infrastructure: if there were more cyclists, facilities and such like would improve, and if the conditions for cyclists were better, more people would cycle -it's hard to see how to start this cycle (heh!) off.

Perhaps the political leadership that the greens claim to show could be used to start off the process. It's just false to think that giving people cheap bikes is more likely to work than the more difficult job of reforming the urban roads to make them more pro-cyclist. Typical government 'quick-fix' showy thinking.

Gavin

Húrin wrote: »

The scheme is nonsense from the start. Nobody doesn't cycle because they can't a afford a bike, especially not those who can afford to drive cars. The other major problem is that it is clearly not an effective substitute for making the roads safer and more cycle-friendly - that's what would get people cycling to work.

The scheme is an incentive. Making the road safer is a chicken and egg scenario. More cyclists makes it safer, but until more people cycle, it won't be safer. That's the perception anyway. The reality is that cycling in Dublin is not particularly dangerous.

Certainly the scheme should be advertised and cycling in general should be advertised. Badmouthing the scheme doesn't achieve much. It's a start, a decent start, it should be commended. If the Gov sees a positive response to it, they'll be more inclined to follow through with advertising, education etc.

Caroline_ie

Just thinking ... in reality, who would want to swap their car for a bike? I know myself I own a 2006 car, that I pay for every month but rarely use. It does drive me mad that I am paying so much money for nothing.
As well, many see cycling as a 'lower class' type of transportation, for those who can afford a car. I am pretty sure vanity has a lot to do with the lack of interrest from the public.
I cycle to work because I love cycling and it has become a way of life over the past year or so. Not many people with a car would cycle even just 13km to town to work of pleasure, to the restaurant or the movies when they have a car parked outside their door.
Should the scheme had been more advertised, would there have been more interrest from car/bus commuters? (bad grammar ...? )

blorg

As Verb says, it's an incentive. The tax system is often used to incentivise social goals and as Tiny says this has been succesful in the UK. The Green Party did produce a website at www.bikescheme.ie. Utimately though participation in the scheme is voluntary on the part of the employer so failure to implement it should sit firmly with them (your employer.)

Personally I would be happy to get my tax-free bike taken out of my (pre-tax) wages immediately, I don't particularly need the optional 12-month finance. Note the 12 months is simply a maximum.

Raam

Caroline_ie wrote: »

Just thinking ... in reality, who would want to swap their car for a bike?

3 or 4 people in work have stated their intentions to do this. Whether or not they actually do it is another question.

Traumadoc

HSE are not doing it outside of Dublin.

Húrin

Gavin wrote: »

The scheme is an incentive. Making the road safer is a chicken and egg scenario. More cyclists makes it safer, but until more people cycle, it won't be safer. That's the perception anyway. The reality is that cycling in Dublin is not particularly dangerous.

Certainly the scheme should be advertised and cycling in general should be advertised. Badmouthing the scheme doesn't achieve much. It's a start, a decent start, it should be commended. If the Gov sees a positive response to it, they'll be more inclined to follow through with advertising, education etc.

I know that cycling in Dublin is not dangerous, but until people see things like segregated cycling lanes, or fewer vans and trucks speeding down the roads, they will feel at risk and avoid cycling. The only major groups who seem to cycle are those who can't afford to drive or take the bus (students, low-paid migrants, the elderly) and the least risk-averse groups (young men, teens). If the government is serious about encouraging cycling, and I don't think it is, then it should make Irish cities and towns more like Copenhagen or Amsterdam.

Caroline_ie wrote: »

Just thinking ... in reality, who would want to swap their car for a bike?

People who are sick of sitting in traffic jams and paying top euro for petrol, insurance and parking, I expect.

Caroline_ie

Húrin wrote: »

If the government is serious about encouraging cycling, and I don't think it is, then it should make Irish cities and towns more like Copenhagen or Amsterdam.

Have you seen the cycle traffic in Coppenhagen? I wouldn't want to cycle there at all...

Húrin wrote: »

People who are sick of sitting in traffic jams and paying top euro for petrol, insurance and parking, I expect.

Yes, maybe you hear them rant about it, but >400 quid a month of car related payments ... most people want their money worth. (about asking people to leave their car at home )

We are all biased in this forum anyway, we all enjoy cycling too much. Try this in the Motor or the Commuting forum see what people say -

leeroybrown

Gavin wrote: »

The reality is that cycling in Dublin is not particularly dangerous.

Húrin wrote: »

I know that cycling in Dublin is not dangerous, but until people see things like segregated cycling lanes, or fewer vans and trucks speeding down the roads, they will feel at risk and avoid cycling.

I disagree to a certain degree. I'd be quite happy to cycle around Dublin but I'm an experienced cyclist who is very comfortable in traffic. For me Dublin wouldn't be particularly dangerous. For the kind of novice cyclist that this scheme ideally targets I'd say that certain parts of Dublin's roads could be very intimidating and potentially dangerous.

Yeah, my HR hadn't heard of this scheme either until I mentioned it to them. Bikescheme.ie is good but I haven't seen it advertised anywhere. But still, it's all a step in the right direction (as long as the plan is to move in a certain direction!).

Húrin

leeroybrown wrote: »

I disagree to a certain degree. I'd be quite happy to cycle around Dublin but I'm an experienced cyclist who is very comfortable in traffic. For me Dublin wouldn't be particularly dangerous. For the kind of novice cyclist that this scheme ideally targets I'd say that certain parts of Dublin's roads could be very intimidating and potentially dangerous.

I'm also quite comfortable, but I'm talking about percieved danger rather than actual danger.

Húrin

Caroline_ie wrote: »

Have you seen the cycle traffic in Coppenhagen? I wouldn't want to cycle there at all...

Yes, I've seen it, and I think it's better than what we have.

petethedrummer

It might pick up in the spring/summer months, now that the day is getting noticeably longer. I'd also go along with Tiny that the economic uncertainty is having an effect.

Anyway, what did this journalist expect? that all of a sudden everyone's habits would change over night. I think there is a definite increase in cycling around Dublin over the past year, but that maybe cos my route to work has changed.

TinyExplosions

I think it should also be pointed out that we're only just into March -the scheme came in in January, and given the speed a lot of companies move at, it's conceivable that it could be towards the middle of the year before you see any real take up....

seamus

petethedrummer wrote: »

Anyway, what did this journalist expect? that all of a sudden everyone's habits would change over night. I think there is a definite increase in cycling around Dublin over the past year, but that maybe cos my route to work has changed.

Last week in particular it seemed to be very busy cycling in and out of work. That may have been the milder weather.

Speaking from the implementation side of a big company in Ireland, it's not that easy to administer for medium to large employers primarily because it requires the employer to get involved. If it was a case of an employee simply presenting a receipt, it would be dead simple. But because the employer essentially has to present themselves and their credit card at the shop*, that where the complexity arises.

It's also somewhat of a low priority for companies. The 1% income levy has caused a massive amount of pain for companies using automated payroll because of the screwed up way that the Government has applied it; they should have just raised the lower band by 1%. All of the big providers - SAP, Sage, Tas, etc - have had a nightmare actually updating their software to account for it, so payroll departments all over the country spent the last two months sweating over that rather than giving the cycle scheme any time.

I imagine that employers will eventually get around to it - they can save a bit of cash on it, but not nearly enough IMO. If the employer could write each bike off against their tax bill, you'd see them promoting it ridiculously quickly. At the moment all they get back is the employer's PRSI which on a €1k bike is at most €100. Spread that out over ten employees and you get back €1k over a year. Half of which would probably be the cost of implementing the thing in the first place.

*Obviously an arrangement can be made between the company and local shops, but that requires some will

ROK ON

The company that I work for is doing it.
But just some observations. I work for an Italian company, and I sometimes have to head to Milan.
I am always surprised as to how few cyclists that I see cycling around the streets of Milan versus Dublin. There are (IMO) far more cyclists on our roads (qualitatively speaking) than in Milan.
I see no reason why this scheme would not work other than complete inertia by an employer or employee.

WicklowRacer

I think most ppl who cycle have some sort of ulterior motive - want to get fitter, use it as training, cant stand traffic/public transport, are slightly odd whatever. This gets them over the hump that cycling as a method of commuting is a crap experience.

It doesnt matter how much incentive is put before the masses, cycling for commuters will never go mainstream. Negative incentives, like petrol at 20 yoyo/litre are another matter though...

I appreciate the good intent of the Government but I'm not surprised by the takeup figures.

Ryaner

I've swapped my car two days a week to cycle. Only bought the car last october too.

We did have a fair bit of interest in here too up till the first pay cheque arrived and people saw the lower amount. Most weren't willing to risk lowering it further knowing that more taxes would probably happen during the year.

Turbulent Bill

There's nothing inherently wrong with the scheme, and it's far too early to judge its success or failure - remember how bad the weather was lately? As a social measure to get more people cycling it's incomplete - you need parallel schemes for cyclist education, employer facilities etc. to get the full effect.

In terms of timing it couldn't be worse economically. Very few people who don't currently cycle will shell out €1000 (or even a few hundred) on a bike they mightn't use, while those who cycle already will hold on to their present one. I was all set to use the scheme this year when it was announced, but my employment situation is so uncertain that I'm holding off.

What might work is a combined time/money campaign to promote cycling, e.g., commuting by bike saves time, removes the need for gym membership, turns your commute into an exercise session so you have more time in the evenings etc.

Stark

Húrin wrote: »

The scheme is nonsense from the start. Nobody doesn't cycle because they can't a afford a bike, especially not those who can afford to drive cars. The other major problem is that it is clearly not an effective substitute for making the roads safer and more cycle-friendly - that's what would get people cycling to work.

It's a cyclic process. More people cycling means the roads become safer and more cyclist friendly due to safety in numbers, which in turn gets even more people cycling. We just need to tip the balance so that this process starts moving again. At the moment, we're losing cyclist numbers, which has led to cycling becoming such a minority pursuit that everyone else thinks you must be crazy to take a bike out in the city.

On the subject of the tax scheme, I was talking to someone who works in the Department of Finance and they won't be able to avail of the scheme till the middle of the year due to red tape. My company isn't allowed provide us with the scheme for the foreseeable future as they were told by Revenue to stop providing salary sacrifice scheme incentives due to the potential for abuse.

rubadub

blorg wrote: »

I don't buy this, it's not as if "implementing" the scheme is a big deal, it should be no different administratively than the tax-free bus/train ticket thing.

Yep, no different, and made out to be a huge big deal/hassle to some places! Also there are probably more availing of the ticket thing.

leeroybrown wrote: »

Never underestimate the difficulty in getting a 'simple' scheme through the administration of a lot of companies. I've seen the TaxSaver commuter scheme be a big problem in places.

Yep my place it was. A mate and a guy in work saying they would nearly prefer just paying the extra than having to deal with HR. I reckon some would be also scared of losing a % of their bonus since the employer would see it as such "ye got yer bike didn't ye? what more do you want, do you know the sh!t we had to go through?".

blorg wrote: »

If one employee has an interest, why would you not do it for them?

Because the lazy person in HR has to do more work than usual, they might be up to their eyes already. And do not tell me it will take 5 minutes to do or something! If you had a stopwatch on them I wonder how long it would take, how much they are paid per hour and what the real cost is. Cost of admin on usual sales in businesses can be huge and vastly underestimated.

At the moment all they get back is the employer's PRSI which on a €1k bike is at most €100.

Yes, and it could end up costing a lot more than that for the employer.

MagicMarker wrote: »

In theory the scheme is great, but like most governmental endeavors, it's not very well thought out.

I wounder how much the government has squandered invested in the scheme so far. I wonder if they did any market research and ask people how they thought it should be implemented.

Gavin wrote: »

Badmouthing the scheme doesn't achieve much. It's a start, a decent start, it should be commended. If the Gov sees a positive response to it, they'll be more inclined to follow through with advertising, education etc.

I would have liked to see it somehow out of the hands of HR depts. If they were anyway serious about encouraging people using bikes they would just scrap tax on them altogether, it is a FAR simpler concept, it would also have people buying bikes in Irish shops more. Why should only workers benefit if they want people on bikes instead of cars. Kids & the unemployed should be encouraged too, working people who might take a spin for exercise instead of driving to the gym and further clogging up traffic.

I have said in other threads if they were anyway serious about tackling obesity & bad health they would scrap tax on all fitness related equipment.

I think others are scared about being "caught", i.e. if it is pissing rain are they "allowed" drive to work? what if your bike is stolen in the first month (likely given the extremely lax garda views on bike theft & recovery). Are you then obliged to buy another bike to use for the year? If not people could buy it and sell it to their mate and claim it was nicked.

niceonetom

Stark wrote: »

It's a cyclic process. More people cycling means the roads become safer and more cyclist friendly due to safety in numbers, which in turn gets even more people cycling. We just need to tip the balance so that this process starts moving again. ...

Agreed. There is a critical mass (no, i don't mean the CM agitators) effect that could shift public perception of cycling from being something for the unwashed, unwaged and unwanted to something for the mainstream - a viable and useful alternative to the car. We are nowhere near the tipping point though. The benefit in kind scheme, while a bit meek, is a carrot.

A bus strike might be a stick. It's remarkable the gap between public perception of cycling and the experience of those who actually cycle - a week of cycling because there is no real alternative all of a sudden might have a few people saying "what the hell was i doing on that bus anyway?".

The idea of judging this scheme to be a failure after a few winter months during the most sudden economic down turn my lifetime is a bit laughable. It is a pity that there is no onus on employers to provide the scheme though, it is easy for them to say that they have bigger fish to fry right now and you and your bike can go and shíte.

rubadub

niceonetom wrote: »

A bus strike might be a stick. It's remarkable the gap between public perception of cycling and the experience of those who actually cycle - a week of cycling because there is no real alternative all of a sudden might have a few people saying "what the hell was i doing on that bus anyway?".

Thats a good point. I actually saw 3-4 newbie commuters out today on my usual journey at the usual time, I have not seen new people for ages. I feel that way "what the hell...."

If I was offered to be chaffeur driven to work, or get a free ferrari to drive in I would say no thanks, would take twice as long and I would be stressed to feck, and fat!

seamus

rubadub wrote: »

If I was offered to be chaffeur driven to work, or get a free ferrari to drive in I would say no thanks, would take twice as long and I would be stressed to feck, and fat!

Is it wrong that my first thought was, "Sell the Ferrari"?

zAbbo

Is it well advertised, or fully understood

Is there a website calculator similar to the UK's -http://www.cyclescheme.co.uk/

Húrin

WicklowRacer wrote: »

It doesnt matter how much incentive is put before the masses, cycling for commuters will never go mainstream.

That's nonsense. Before cars were so affordable and public transport was at its present extent, cycling was very much mainstream. Indeed, some countries have even made cycling mainstream without being too poor to afford cars or good public transport.

Stark wrote: »

It's a cyclic process. More people cycling means the roads become safer and more cyclist friendly due to safety in numbers, which in turn gets even more people cycling. We just need to tip the balance so that this process starts moving again. At the moment, we're losing cyclist numbers, which has led to cycling becoming such a minority pursuit that everyone else thinks you must be crazy to take a bike out in the city.

I've noticed an increase in cycling in Dublin in the last two years. Just observation though, no statistics.

short circuit

Isn't winter usually the slowest time for bike sales and we will see a lot more people buying new bikes for whatever purpose come early spring ... not talking about the hardcore people on this forum .. know of more than one who went out and bought a new bike even though the scheme might be just around the corner.

Also, with all the other tax changes going in at the sametime .. I don't think implementing this scheme would be the highest priority for any HR department. In my case ... got the usual "we are investigating" from HR for nearly 8 weeks ... but looks like we might get something implemented before April .. only thing is I got a bike in December ... :rolleyes:

Caroline_ie

Húrin wrote: »

That's nonsense. Before cars were so affordable and public transport was at its present extent, cycling was very much mainstream. Indeed, some countries have even made cycling mainstream without being too poor to afford cars or good public transport.

As you say it yourself *before* ... as in last century and in countries like China, which I can invite you to move to, if you think they have a better life than us.

Húrin wrote: »

I've noticed an increase in cycling in Dublin in the last two years. Just observation though, no statistics.

Which is probably equal to the increase in foreign nationals and student moving to the city.

blorg

Caroline_ie wrote: »

As you say it yourself *before* ... as in last century and in countries like China, which I can invite you to move to, if you think they have a better life than us.

I think he means the likes of the Netherlands or Denmark, they don't cycle there due to lack of money to afford a car.

rubadub wrote: »

If I was offered to be chaffeur driven to work, or get a free ferrari to drive in I would say no thanks, would take twice as long and I would be stressed to feck, and fat!

I'd take this one, actually a proper bike unlike many of the car-maker tie ins (what is it about car manufacturers bringing out bikes anyway?)

markpb

My problems with the scheme are:

1. It's dependant on your employer having the time (a lot don't)

2. It's dependant on your employer funding the cash (mine won't, same for annual taxsaver tickets)

3. You can only buy one bike every five years, I'v been cycle-commuting for that long and have at least one bike stolen each year. I'm not going to spend more than 150 on a replacement bike.

4. It's needlessly complicated, why involve employers at all, why not just submit the receipt like a med1?

If it was part of a multi-pronged approach to improve cycle facilities and safety, it would be a good idea. On it's own, it's not going to encourage more than a handful of people who _didn't already cycle_ to change to cycling. The rest of us will just use it to get a discount on a new bike.

blorg

rubadub wrote: »

I would have liked to see it somehow out of the hands of HR depts. If they were anyway serious about encouraging people using bikes they would just scrap tax on them altogether, it is a FAR simpler concept, it would also have people buying bikes in Irish shops more. ... I have said in other threads if they were anyway serious about tackling obesity & bad health they would scrap tax on all fitness related equipment.

Not allowed to, we don't have control over VAT rates, there is a minimum allowed of 15%. They could scrap it for safety equipment like helmets however (as is the case in the UK.)

I think others are scared about being "caught", i.e. if it is pissing rain are they "allowed" drive to work?

Yes, it is clearly spelt out there is no minimum usage requirement.

what if your bike is stolen in the first month (likely given the extremely lax garda views on bike theft & recovery). Are you then obliged to buy another bike to use for the year? If not people could buy it and sell it to their mate and claim it was nicked.

The "only once every five years" takes care of this. Once you have bought (paid for?) the bike it is yours to do what you will with but you can't get another for 5 years.

FrankGrimes

I work for one of the companies in that 100 Best Companies to Work For List and they are generally very good about getting this sort of thing up and running (they do the the transport tickets etc.) but I haven't heard a word about this scheme being introduced.

I reckon they will introduce it soon enough but I could understand if they try to simplify the admin of it by just doing a deal with one cycle store and making say 5 models available to purchase under the scheme. Likewise, they may just make a standard list of safety equipment available for selection. When you start to scale something like this having a standard and brief set of SKUs included makes it a lot simpler.

That's the way I'd expect it to pan out which is why I went ahead and ordered my bike from the UK at the end of December - I felt I'd be waiting months for the scheme and the deal available from the UK at that time (best exchange rate ever from consumer perspective, sell-off of 2008 end of line models) would offset the possible savings under the scheme, and I'm very happy with that decision to-date. That said, I would like to see broader adoption of this scheme....even if it meant that 5% of those people that already cycle to work were to get better lights and more visible gear, it would be worth it.

My employer does provider showers and lockers so I can store shirts when I drive in and have them there when I cycle and I think many people feel the same. I wouldn't cycle even 5km to work if I wasn't having a shower when I got there. In different times a tax break for expenses incurred for providing such facilities to employees would seem to be a very good idea.

stuf

FrankGrimes wrote: »

I reckon they will introduce it soon enough but I could understand if they try to simplify the admin of it by just doing a deal with one cycle store and making say 5 models available to purchase under the scheme. Likewise, they may just make a standard list of safety equipment available for selection. When you start to scale something like this having a standard and brief set of SKUs included makes it a lot simpler.

The admin for the company is just based on the invoice from the bike shop - a single shop or limited bikes wouldn't make this any easier.

My work had the scheme implemented within two days of the first person asking about it. No drama at all and word of mouth has meant that about 10 out of 80 employees have taken it up so far. Any company that already implements the travel ticket scheme should be able to implement this easily.

I find it a bit weird that you imagined all the problems that might happen and then chose not to ask on that basis. You might have saved as much with the UK purchase but not bothering to ask based on supposition is a bit sad really

Bunnyhopper

"Workers shun Greens’ bike bid"

It sounds a bit more as if the problem really starts with employers shunning it.

Also, it's interesting that it's the "Greens' bike bid". We'll know it's a success when it turns into "Fianna Fail's bike bid" :rolleyes:

Tawny

My work isn't remotely interested in implimenting it. I think it just sounds like too much hassle for them.

Last week, I had an out of work dinner with my boss and just happened to mention I was thinking of getting a new bike. First of all, she was very enthusiastic and said I should take advantage of the new scheme where you get the tax off. I explained briefly how it works, they have to buy the bike for me, then I pay the money back, and the response was pretty much 'ohh I see, thats a Shame'.

Sniipe

Whats the deal? I don't understand it.
From an employee point of view for me what would happen?

1) Do I have to convince my employer to get involved in the scheme (which will probably be easy as he cycles to work himself)

2) I currently drive, and it would actually take me 20min to cycle. Currently amn't too keen on it owing to the fact that I live in one of the wettest place in Ireland.. Galway.

3) Can I buy the bike? Its 1000euro limit as far as I know. Who pays for it? Do I pay something towards it? My employer or me? If so how much would they get back?

4) If my bike is stolen, I've to shell out?

5) Whats to stop me cycling it once and then giving up?

6) What if I drive to work once/twice/a few times/half the year, etc?

Clueless?!?

Sniipe

Sniipe wrote: »

Whats the deal? I don't understand it.
From an employee point of view for me what would happen?

1) Do I have to convince my employer to get involved in the scheme (which will probably be easy as he cycles to work himself)

Yep.

2) I currently drive, and it would actually take me 20min to cycle. Currently amn't too keen on it owing to the fact that I live in one of the wettest place in Ireland.. Galway.

Sure you're used to the rain so

3) Can I buy the bike? Its 1000euro limit as far as I know. Who pays for it? Do I pay something towards it? My employer or me? If so how much would they get back?

There were some good posts which might have been put into the wiki about this... here: http://wiki.boards.ie/wiki/BikeToWork

4) If my bike is stolen, I've to shell out?

Of course. Consider getting a good lock (or two) on the scheme, I think they're covered too.

5) Whats to stop me cycling it once and then giving up?

Not much really.

6) What if I drive to work once/twice/a few times/half the year, etc?

Clueless?!?

Same as above, I think you've to sign something saying you'll cycle to work on it but it's difficult to see how it'll be dealt with. In reality I don't think they can really enforce it.

Check out http://www.bikescheme.ie/ too, there's more info there.

UsedtobePC

I'm in charge of supposedly implementing the scheme at work and while everything and everybody seems to be ready to roll (HR, payroll, staff) we're being held back by the lack of funds in this financial year's budget (my company operates a Apr - Mar financial year) to pay for the bikes.
At the same time, because of the lack of knowledge about the scheme nothing was budgeted for next year ergo, we have a problem and no will to solve it.

the_syco

A few people are going for it here. As the plant is near to where they live, it's generating a high take-up.

Also, I've learnt that a few people are ordering bikes from Poland. A bike that costs €400 here costs €100 there, and the postage is only €170, so they get acheap bike. Think there's a €300 limit here, not sure though.

seamus

Dónal wrote: »

Same as above, I think you've to sign something saying you'll cycle to work on it but it's difficult to see how it'll be dealt with. In reality I don't think they can really enforce it.

I would imagine they're relying on the fact that anyone who's not at least willing to give cycling a go couldn't be bothered buying a bike through this scheme just to save a few shillings.

I would expect there to be a high "failure" rate, i.e. a lot of people who'll try it for two days a week for two weeks and then give up. I would expect the government have also factored that in, but at the same time if 10,000 people "try" it and 10% decide they enjoy it, that's not a bad result. It's a step towards building up that critical mass.
I also wouldn't penalise someone for giving it a go and then not keeping it up by insisting that they pay full whack for the bike or something - this will just discourage people from giving it a go in the first place.

FrankGrimes

stuf wrote: »

The admin for the company is just based on the invoice from the bike shop - a single shop or limited bikes wouldn't make this any easier.

My work had the scheme implemented within two days of the first person asking about it. No drama at all and word of mouth has meant that about 10 out of 80 employees have taken it up so far. Any company that already implements the travel ticket scheme should be able to implement this easily.

I find it a bit weird that you imagined all the problems that might happen and then chose not to ask on that basis. You might have saved as much with the UK purchase but not bothering to ask based on supposition is a bit sad really

The challenge here is scalability - sure a company with 80 employees and 10 participants can handle the requests on an ad-hoc basis. Once you go into larger organisations you need a standard, scalable, repeatable, low confusion and low error process.

No HR department of any large organisation would sign-up to any scheme like this until they have had an opportunity to define such a process and assess the impact on their resources, particularly for orgs over 1000 employees and at a time when the HR department may already by operating at over 100% utilization given that many orgs are losing headcount or at least not replacing those that leave voluntarily. You're entitled to disagree with that, but I can't see how anyone who has actual experience in this area would seek to trivialise it.

Your "The admin for the company is just based on the invoice from the bike shop - a single shop or limited bikes wouldn't make this any easier." point is very far off the mark. The HR department have to actually purchase the bike/gear from the shop and any large organisation will seek to standardize this process as opposed to the off the cuff 'sure order it yourself there Jimmy and just get them to send through the invoice to me and I'll take care of it' approach you can get away with when you are only dealing with 10 orders in a small company.

I would envisage a larger HR department putting in place a process whereby they use at the very least a spreadsheet to collate orders from their employees and limiting the choices to a specific list of SKUs from a specific supplier, with size being the only additional variable and this would greatly simplify it for the HR dept. The alternative whereby Jimmy emails in saying 'I want a Focus Cayo Variado 2008 from Wiggle, they should have one left in my size - 58cm' and Joe phones HR saying 'I want a Lappiere 400 from CycleSuperstore....' would be significantly more complex for the HR department. Why? Well for one, large organisations have a Procurement department and would probably have to setup a new vendor account (time consuming) for each supplier and this goes against Procurement best practice of always utilizing a narrower set of vendors (each with breadth and depth product offerrings) as opposed to managing multiple vendors for the same product/service category.

The flexi travel initiative involved a single supplier with a very limited set of SKUs with no variables (e.g. no size, colour to select) so it is incorrect to assume that this program is equally simple to implement for large organisations.

And in my personal case, I saved around €1200 compared to prices for similar spec in Irlenad by purchasing an end of line 2008 model on the day of close to, if not the, best ever exchange rate. Based on my extensive knowledge of what is actually involved in rolling-out initiatives like this in large organisations, I was quite confident that it would take months to set up and would also not facilitate orders from UK online suppliers. Compare that to the maximum ~€500 (higher rate of income tax plus PRSI savings) that I could make on a higher base price in Ireland and I'm pretty sure any objective reviewer would be pretty damn happy with that result.