Cork Hurling Manager?

Orizio · 22-02-2009 07:49PM

I'm sorry but quite clearly you do need to justify the CCB. The CCB appointed Ger McCarthy - who you have repeatedly defended - 'democratically', but if the CCB is a corrupt, incompetent and absuive organisation (which is what the Cork people, numerous clubs and seemingly Croke Park believe) then it completely undermines your argument. A 'democratic' appointment by a corrupt and undemocatic organisation is completely worthless.

But I'm glad you admit your clueless about the CCB and runnings of Cork GAA, it does put your opinion into context.

And I'm confused as to why you refuse to educate yourself about the ways of the CCB when they are all important in this situation, and why your more then happy to fit into the crowd when it comes to criticise the 08 panel. :rolleyes:

Orizio · 22-02-2009 09:26PM

300-400 at the meeting tonight. Standing ovation for the players. About to talk about it on RTE2.

Orizio · 22-02-2009 10:00PM

I always liked Colm O'Rourke. Both himself and Cyril talking sense, in fairness.

brettmirl · 22-02-2009 10:03PM

Missed it on the telly Orizio - any word on the chairmen/players meeting?

evil-monkey · 22-02-2009 10:15PM

Orizio wrote: »

Where did I say anything all clubs having an equal say? Oh wait, I didn't.

I don't recall saying that you did say they had an equal say. I was just saying that I don't think they should, and doing so in reference to your claims that the CCB is undemocratic, which, as I pointed out, I disagree with (if I dare).

Orizio wrote: »

You have an annoying habit of debating strawmans EM.

Does every point I raise have to be in counter to another?? If I raise a point out of the blue, I'm debating with "strawmans", I'm just raising a point. And it's not as annoying as the language you use. Which is a little odd for a mod. No need for the **** we find every two words in your post. Just take deep breaths when posting your responses

Orizio wrote: »

If people pay their membeship fees, then they have a right to a say in how your club is being run. Saying you have to regurly attend AGM's to have a right to a say is a nonsense

Hang on now. Read your post again. Who "regularly" attends AGMs?? You only have to attend an AGM annually - hence the term AGM!! I completely agree with you - if people pay their membership fees, they should have a say. But delegates are elected, most of the time, at AGMs. So if members want to select a delegate that will represent them as they see fit, then they can go to the bother of going to the one meeting a year where the delegates are elected.

Orizio wrote: »

and completely unfeasible for those of us who have jobs or uni.

To go to an annual meeting that would most likely be held at the weekend or some evening?? Fair enough a small few can be affected, but surely anyone who really wants to vote on their delegate can make the time one night out of 365!!

Orizio wrote: »

While I agree that the 08 panels campaign has been poorly run and out-maneouvred, I fail to see how it changes the fact that Cork GAA is incompetently run and corrupt. Do you not agree that the whole adminstration needs revamping and democratising, and that

I wouldn't say that Cork GAA is incompetently run (see my posts some 300 pages ago

) and I also feel that if the general public want to change the administration, then they can do so through their clubs. But as I said, I don't think anything is going to change, and elections for delegates will still be poorly attended etc etc. And, as I've stated on numerous occassions, and am just reiterating here, I don't think players should have any say whatsoever in the management team. If players picked managers, then that would be my idea of incompetence.

Orizio wrote: »

the likes of Frank Murphy and Bob Honohan really need to **** off?

Once again could "**** off" not have been replaced by retire??

evil-monkey · 22-02-2009 10:17PM

deise59 wrote: »

Both parties are at fault due to a certain level of stubberness, but if the players really feel their actions are justified because of the lack of "democracy" in the CCB, the way they've gone about fixing that democracy has done them no favours.

Just saw this post now. I think this post pretty much 100% sums up this whole mess...

Orizio · 22-02-2009 10:27PM

mick_irl wrote: »

Missed it on the telly Orizio - any word on the chairmen/players meeting?

Apparently the players asked the chairnmen to bring a number of motions to debate at their own clubs, including a vote of no confidence on Ger. I'm not sure about procedure, so I'm not sure what happens next but I'm assuming there will be another vote on Ger's position. Hopefully this time he will go, but I doubt it, it will almost certainly be a closer margin though. Expect the 08 panel to disband, and the next two years in Cork GAA (depending on what happens with the footballers) to be a joke.

And Evil-Monkey, I'll show Ger McCarthy proper respect when he does the same to the people of Cork, specifically the players and those 12,000 'shoppers'/protestors.

Beyond that, we just seem to be going in circles and repeating ourselves, and I doubt we will find common ground. Lets wait and see what happens over the next few days? I have a feeling this whole thing is coming to an end anyway, albeit a very unsatisfactory one.

Orizio · 23-02-2009 01:09AM

A little more...

-> The clubs are to talk about and vote upon both the Cloyne Motion and no confidence in Ger.

-> The Blackrock and Midleton reps seemingly weren't there.

Knicked off of PROC.

And from RebelGAA.

Right, I'm tired so this is a brief re-cap. As honest as I can possibly be.

Players entered to a huge standing ovation. Of the 400plus in attendance, only about 10-20 stayed sitting.
Gardiner said that the agenda was really up to the clubs, but maybe they'd start with questions from the floor, then talk about clubs' and players' proposals and solutions.

Alan White spoke - explained himself very well in fairness. Said that his information came from an ex-player (non-200, that he asked the CCB if the players could agree to any of the Croke park document. The Executive told him they agreed with all of it except point 2. White said that, as this seemed to confirm what he'd heard, he thought nothing of stating that he'd heard such. At this, he said, the top three officials all feigned surprise, despite the fact that they'd just said much the same thing, and despite the fact that Frank Murphy had at that moment in his briefcase a letter from Gerald McCarthy saying exactly the same thing. Frank later said that he hadn't intended reading out the letter but he may as well now, which he did. White said that had the letter been been read out first that he wouldn't have spoke at all, that he was sorry he had, and he apologised for any confusion or hindrance he'd caused. John Gardiner told him it was alright, and White got considerable unsolicited applause for showing up and for being honest.

The vast majority of the speakers that followed spoke in favour of the players' stance, with only a few urging a return to playing. Most urged them to continue, and urged fellow club folk to continue the fight.

Most of the speakers, it seemed to me, were from Junior clubs and there was incredible anger at the lack of representation, or the absence in a lot of cases. Many intermediate and Senior clubs joined in, again overwhelmingly in favour of the players and anti-CCB

Many speakers stated that their clubs had held EGMs, many more said that EGMs were planned, urging others to follow. One member backed the players but urged them not to suggest EGMs as this would split clubs in two, and got some applause. Another asked why anyone would be in favour of democracy, and insisted that clubs should hold EGMs. This near brought the house down.

At this stage, the meeting seemed to be controlled almost entirely by the clubs. Enough anger had been vented so the next step seemed to be to ask for proposals. Proposals from the floor included holding an annual such meeting of all club people (warm applause), suggesting further dialogue (muted response), that the 'kids' should go home and talk to their parents (a lot of rage and an indignant response from Cathal Naughton that he found the suggestion insulting and that, besides, if he went home and told his parents that he was going to play under Gerald Mc that he wouldn't wake up in the morning). Most hough were curious as to what the players were proposing, so Gardiner read out their two suggested motions for clubs to consider within their clubs and act upon if they saw fit (these will be in the papers, but I'll give them to ye as best I can):-

1) Save in relation to routine matters such as fixtures, venues etc that delegates to the CCB do not vote on any matter without having time to talk to their clubs' Executives as to how they should vote (requires 70/30 majority)

and

2) That Gerald McCarthy and his management team resign as the 2009 Senior Hurling Management Team (requires 51/49 majority)

There seemed little doubt that both votes would have carried comfortably had they been put to the room, and the discussion that followed mirrored that.

At that stage the meeting was, as the players thought, winding to a close. However some member intervened strongly and suggested two further actions for the night.

Firstly, that the members go back and talk to their clubs, and that a follow-up meeting be called. The players hadn't seemed to have bargained on this but said they were available whenever suited. It was fixed for Sunday the 8th March.

Secondly there was a fear that the huge turnout, the spread of the attendance throughout the grades, and the overwhelming support might not be credited or recorded. A roll-call of the clubs present, and their grades was proposed, and quickly agreed upon. This was done. I couldn't put an exact number on it, of course, but clearly the vast majority of clubs were present, which led to the obvious conclusion that the vast majority of clubs are now pro-the-players and Anti-CCB.

Nearly there now!

Only fair to say that the meeting was extremely decorous, and that all members were allowed time to finish their questions/comments. Those in the minority had their say, and I was proud to be a part of such a dignified meeting held in such controversial times.

Finally, I hope everyone believes me when I say that I've been as honest as I can be, and I've tried to report it free of spin. I'll think of more, I'm sure, but that will have to wait until the morning. I'll finish with what seemed to be a consensus of actions among the clubs

1) Those clubs that haven't already to set the wheels in motion to call EGMs as soon as the constraints within the rule-book will allow
2) Clubs to discuss both motions, and gain a consensus
3) Meet players again on Sunday the 8th March

'Night all.

Pods.

Seems like the bulk of the clubs are on the player's side, but as we know half the clubs have no say so...

Anyway looks like things are going to drag on for another couple of weeks.

spillcoe · 23-02-2009 12:30PM

Looks like a great result for the players. The tide really seems to be after turning against the county board now. Surely even Frank and Gerald can't ignore this kind of proof that the clubs support the players. Their repeated mantra of Gerald being democratically elected may yet come back to haunt them!

KerranJast · 23-02-2009 04:33PM

spillcoe wrote: »

Looks like a great result for the players. The tide really seems to be after turning against the county board now. Surely even Frank and Gerald can't ignore this kind of proof that the clubs support the players. Their repeated mantra of Gerald being democratically elected may yet come back to haunt them!

I wouldn't be surprised if Frank threw Gerald under the bus now. It's gone beyond that though. He needs to go too or his power needs to be diluted.

Daysha · 23-02-2009 05:00PM

Ok, bear with me on this reply, because this is going to be hard to explain. You all know up until now I've been completely anti-players since this all started in October, so apologies if this is a bit long-winded.

I will admit that it probably wasn't the best idea for me to completely disregard the CCB when judging the actions of the players. Like I've said before, to the average outsider, it seems like another case of Cork players not getting what they want and kicking up yet another fuss about it. That's the stance I've held for nearly 5 months now, but after spending more time reading about the "democracy" of the CCB, talking to Cork relatives, and in particular analysing what happened at the meeting last night, perhaps it's time for me to understand that this is not just any old Cork strike like the past.

Its obvious to me now that there's something not right with the CCB. If you specifically asked me what in particular was wrong, I wouldn't be able to answer you. But I could tell you that for a GAA county of it's size and the influence it has on hurling and gaelic football around the country, it's not run the way it should be.

I really wish the players had taken a different mean of action against Frank Murphy and the CCB. They may tell you it was the final straw of years and years of underhand tactics by Murphy, but nobody actually WANTS them to strike. The players didn't want to strike, the CCB didn't want to see them strike, and certainly the fans didn't want to see them strike. But that's what's happened. And in a pretty rediculous tug-of-war, Gerald McCarthy will be one of the biggest losers.

I don't think I can fully explain how sorry I feel for him over the whole saga. The mans been put in a tortuously difficult position, and now, for basically sticking up for prinicipals he's followed all his life, one of the greatest hurling legends of all time is being battered left right and centre. While my take on the whole thing has now admittedly changed since last night, I will continue to not stand for any kind of public criticism of Gerald. I'll never have any time for any poster who comes on here and says "Gerald is a fcuking wanker, Gerald needs to fcuk off" etc, because he never has and never will deserve abuse like that.

May I remind you all of the one man who stood up for Donal og Cusack, Sean og O'Halpin and Diarmuid O'Sullivan when they were suspended after Semplegate back in 2007. I'll never forget the sheer emotion and anger in his voice following their defeat to Waterford in Munster that year, he well and truly cared for the players.

Is he the greatest manager in the world? No. I personally don't think he's even as good as John Allen or Donal O'Grady before him. But people who highlight Corks mediocre 2 years with him in charge need to understand there's more than just a a manager at fault there. Call it clutching at straws if you like, but do impressive defeats of Clare twice and Galway go un-noticed? Or what of people who fail to mention that the two teams that knock them out of the All-Ireland were the best Waterford team of 40 years and the best Kilkenny team of all time.

What about when the draw for the AI qualifiers last year was made? What if the roles of Waterford and Cork were reversed when their names came out? Following the Dublin victory, they would've had Offaly (who they would defeat), Wexford (who they should defeat), and a Tipp team that, while improving, has an absolutely woeful record at Croker since winning the AI in 2001. Suddenly, this seemingly "hopeless" Cork team under Gerald Mc are back into an All Ireland final.

But now, under dreadfully unfortunate circumstances, he looks like being the one to lose out most.

Like I said above, I now understand the grievences the 08 panel have with the CCB and Frank Murphy. And, because of that, the only way for Cork hurling to come out of this whole mess with some sort of dignity is for the 08 panel to return.

Even though I've already backed the 09 panel and Gerald to build for the future of Cork hurling, I now understand that fighting for a democracy this year is more essential than working without it for years to come.

And the only way for this to occur would be either the resignation of Frank Murphy or Gerald McCarthy. Considering we know how unlikely it is for FM to be going anywhere, that ultimately means, for the good of Cork hurling, Gerald has to resign.

If that occurs, it'll be one of the saddest days in Cork GAA history, yet one of the most necessary. I just hope that if he goes, both the players and public understand that their fight will be far from over. A resignation will not mean everything will be all fine and dandy again and that they'll suddenly go back to the winning ways of 04 and 05. Getting rid of Gerald this year will be small fish compared to what they may have to fight for next year if they want to go all out on Frank Murphy and the CCB.

But, for now in the grander scheme of things, if things really are as bad down there as people have been telling me, there's only one option.

Gerald McCarthy, despite the wonderful decades of service he's given Cork and to a certain extent my own county, needs to go for the good of Cork hurling.

Orizio · 23-02-2009 05:14PM

Thats a fine response Deise, thank you.

We seem to be in agreement, finally.

I actually think if Ger goes the board said they would go as well, so its none or all. In many ways the CCB has used Ger as a lightning rod for criticism of themselves, knowing full well people in and outside the county would sympathise with Ger and the 09 panel in a way that they would never do with the CCB. Also, I agree that the 08's campaign has been badly run, and they definitely overplayed their hand. Finally however, the debate has centered around the CCB and Frank Murphy, and sympathies are changing very quickly outside of the county I think. I'm sure many remember the cack the CCB served up over Rule 42 for example, and how embarassing the whole debacle was for the GAA in general.

Anyway, I still have the feeling that the CCB will come out on top, even after last night. The admistration itself has a large amount of votes, and I have a feeling they will get the rest through loyalty (Frank Murphy and Blackrock, Ger and the Barrs etc) and fear. If the Junior clubs had a real say it would be different.

But we will see.

evil-monkey · 24-02-2009 01:40AM

Orizio wrote: »

I'll show Ger McCarthy proper respect when he does the same to the people of Cork

I'm not asking you to agree with him, I'm just suggesting that you make your points without **** every two words. Ger seems to have managed it, so I'm sure you can too.

And Ger has been no more disrespectful to the people of Cork, as you put it, as anyone else in this debacle. Of the three parties involved; Ger Mac, Frank Murphy, and the 08 players, it is my reckoning that Ger has shown the most respect out of all three.

Anyway, moving on.

What I would like to know is, if there was a vote in favour of the players, would everyone all of sudden accept that?? Just because the vote is going against what people perceive as the general public opinion, doesn't mean its because people are "afraid" or misrepresenting their clubs. Now, as I've said, I acknowledge that the balance of power isn't entirely equally proportioned (nor do I think should it be), but if, for example, members of any club want to vote for Murphy, regardless of reasons, well then they have every right to do so. As long as a delegate has a mandate to do so, they should be allowed to cast their vote without being accused of doing so out of fear or what not. And as I've said, these mandates are decided at meetings that are usually empty. I haven't seen too many posters here do it, but I have spoken to a lot of pro-player people that seem to not want democracy, but a democracy that suits them.

And regardless of the outcome, it is crucial that any victory for the players, if any result here could be even classed as a victory, does not lead to them picking their own management. That has got to be guarded against.

As for Deise's post; very well put. Particularly the bit about Ger. I have total disrespect for anyone bad mouthing such a servant of the GAA. Ger was appointed to do a job through the means by which every manager in the history of the modern Cork GAA has been appointed. He was offered a job he wanted to do, he accepted. Those under him didn't like their boss, so they walked. He continued to do the job he has every right to do.

Anyway, say the outcome is as follows; Ger walks, the players come back and drive on. Two things for ye all to consider;

1. Will Frank walk??
2. If he did, who would replace him??
3. Who would replace Ger??

What ye all think??

I reckon...

1. Will Frank walk??

No. I reckon he's going to start eyeing his retirement soon, but will be looking a couple of years down the line so as to look like he jumped rather than he was pushed. I can't see this debacle ending in his resignation. I personally wouldn't want it to either, but that's neither here nor there, I'm just wondering if it would spell the end of his tenure.

2. Who would replace him??

As I've said waaaay back at the start of this thread, Frank has done a lot of great things financially for a lot of clubs, and is idolised by a lot of the older generations. These older generations are often the backbone of a club, and any replacement would have to have their blessing, and, like Frank did, know where the bodies are buried when it comes to securing funding for clubs.

3. Who would replace Ger??

Hopefully Ger's replacement would not be a player influenced decision. You all know my reasons as to why I don't think players should have a say in managers. I can't see a huge amount of sane people wanting this job while the dust is still settling, and anyone who does get put in there may well be someone to keep the seat warm while more serious contenders wait for everything to be forgotten, at least to the extent that it will be forgotten.

What ye all think?? Would be interested to here ye're takes on the above 3 questions.

Pride Fighter · 24-02-2009 04:47AM

There was talk on the news of Cork being chucked in the Christy Ring if this continues.

hawkwing · 24-02-2009 12:33PM

What of Diarmuid O'Sullivan?,--last year 99.9% of people both inside and outside of Cork said he should not have started against Kilkenny but Gerald stood by him and he was decent against Kilkenny.I find it strange that he turned his back on Gerald this year and the fact his own father is in the other camp too.Do last year's 30 think a new manager will pick them all as this years 30,those 30 were picked by Gerald so many will lose out now either way.At this stage i think this will lead to a division in Cork GAA for many years whatever happens.

Geansai · 24-02-2009 02:20PM

hawkwing wrote: »

What of Diarmuid O'Sullivan?,--last year 99.9% of people both inside and outside of Cork said he should not have started against Kilkenny but Gerald stood by him and he was decent against Kilkenny.I find it strange that he turned his back on Gerald this year and the fact his own father is in the other camp too.Do last year's 30 think a new manager will pick them all as this years 30,those 30 were picked by Gerald so many will lose out now either way.At this stage i think this will lead to a division in Cork GAA for many years whatever happens.

I don't think anyone believes that the players want a manager who will pick them to play. They do want a manager who will pick the best 15 to start, whether that includes Sully or Sean og or whoever.
All the players want are adequate and appropriate systems in place for the Cork teams ( and not just specific players)
Your comment seems to suggest that whether or not the players could make the cut under different managers is an issue which it is not, nor has ever been.

Also I'd imagine the split in the Sullivan family over the matter is something which all family members have thought long and hard about and has never been easy for anyone involved.

Daysha · 24-02-2009 03:44PM

1. Will Frank walk??
Not until at least the 2009 Championship finishes. And if he does he'll insist it was a retirement decision taken years ago and the 08 panel had no bearing on his leaving.

2. If he did, who would replace him??
Honestly haven't a clue. I don't know many of the big boys in Cork GAA circles.

3. Who would replace Ger??
Ger Cunningham was always seen as a favourite for the position, but he's taken up a job in Waterford. Perhaps Donal O'Grady could be inticed back?

TheSpecialOne · 24-02-2009 08:14PM

Those corks players should hang their heads in shame ...there a disgrace to the good people of cork...player power gone mad ..it is an amateur game after all!ugh thank god limerick hurling isn't as bad!;)

Orizio · 24-02-2009 09:58PM

Unless O'Grady and Allen can be enticed back, I would say Tom Cashman, Ger Cunningham and Tomas Mulcahy would be the obvious canditates. I'm sure there are many outside of the big names though.

What happens with the CCB matters really. They'll have their won favourites and people they dislike.

brettmirl · 24-02-2009 10:20PM

Do you think anyone would actually want the job?

Would it be necessary to bring in an outsider?

Orizio · 24-02-2009 11:43PM

Its nice to Jerry Lane on TV making a complete tit of himself, highly entertaining...

The issue has been 'resolved' apparently. Who knew?

25-02-2009 12:10AM

This post has been deleted.

pvt.joker · 25-02-2009 12:15AM

what a bunch of over opinionated wan*kers these cork hurlers are. Who do they think they are to carry on like this. Whinge whinge whinge every f*cking year.
Get out and play for f*ck sake. You're the laughing stock of the country

25-02-2009 12:22AM

This post has been deleted.

pvt.joker · 25-02-2009 12:26AM

The Scientist wrote: »

:rolleyes:
You obviously haven't a clue whats going on.

Why should they 'get out and play' for a manager who didn't even know their names last season?

Can you tell me why its always Cork striking, always them whinging year on year about some alleged grievance that they have. They're hurlers ffs, just go out and play :rolleyes:

Yavvy · 25-02-2009 12:32AM

pvt.joker wrote: »

what a bunch of over opinionated wan*kers these cork hurlers are. Who do they think they are to carry on like this. Whinge whinge whinge every f*cking year.
Get out and play for f*ck sake. You're the laughing stock of the country

Banned for 3 days for abuse.

Orizio · 25-02-2009 12:41AM

RE: this always Cork striking thing, since others bring it up as well, if you follow sport in general you know that players often, in a relatively quiet manner, (it has happened plenty of times in GAA over the last year) get rid of managers that they feel are incompetent.

The essential difference is that the Cork players came up against a manager who seems to think himself beyond the unspoken rule in sport of 'lose the dressing room, lose your job' and a county board willing to back him up for a variety of petty and destructive reasons.

25-02-2009 12:57AM

This post has been deleted.

Jim K · 25-02-2009 12:27PM

Have to say that I am very disappointed with the Cork County Board. Why sacrafice the game in the county just to keep one man in a job. Both the hurling and the football will suffer because of this.
Watching the tv last night(Prime Time) I was bemused at the Cork Co Board representative's lack of ability to answer the specific questions put to him. Maybe he should go into politics??
Maybe the county sec should also look at his position within the organisation.

Orizio · 25-02-2009 09:21PM

According to the O'Donovan Rossa delegate they are already making up and asking footballers to join a development squad if the 09 football panel goes on strike. Also, from the same person on the Echo...

"The oldest man in our club had tears in his eyes when asked about rules governing AGMs and EGMs"

**** like that depresses me.

Cork Hurling Manager?

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