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Let's talk about Carl Sagan!

  • 22-02-2009 12:12am
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,359 ✭✭✭


    I see Hitchens, Dawkins, and Darwin mentioned here a lot, and for good reason. Feck, even our imaginary friend God gets more mention around here than Sagan. So I was thinking maybe we could get a bit of a "Hail Sagan" thread going.:pac:

    I know he is mostly remembered for physics and astronomy, but he was also a fervent atheist.

    So, where do I start?... Has anyone here seen his Cosmos series?
    Tagged:


«1

Comments

  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 10,518 Mod ✭✭✭✭5uspect


    I have vague but fond recollections of Cosmos. I read the book not long ago, and althought it has aged in parts it is a great read.

    Would anyone agree that "Pale Blue Dot" is the closest thing Atheists have to a prayer?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,359 ✭✭✭Overblood


    I'd prefer not to use the word prayer, but I know what you mean!



    pbd.jpg
    The Earth is a very small stage in a vast cosmic arena. Think of the rivers of blood spilled by all those generals and emperors so that, in glory and triumph, they could become the momentary masters of a fraction of a dot. Think of the endless cruelties visited by the inhabitants of one corner of this pixel on the scarcely distinguishable inhabitants of some other corner, how frequent their misunderstandings, how eager they are to kill one another, how fervent their hatreds.


    Our posturings, our imagined self-importance, the delusion that we have some privileged position in the Universe, are challenged by this point of pale light. Our planet is a lonely speck in the great enveloping cosmic dark. In our obscurity, in all this vastness, there is no hint that help will come from elsewhere to save us from ourselves.


    The Earth is the only world known so far to harbor life. There is nowhere else, at least in the near future, to which our species could migrate. Visit, yes. Settle, not yet. Like it or not, for the moment the Earth is where we make our stand.


    It has been said that astronomy is a humbling and character-building experience. There is perhaps no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our tiny world. To me, it underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly with one another, and to preserve and cherish the pale blue dot, the only home we've ever known.
    -- Carl Sagan, Pale Blue Dot, 1994


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Huge fan of Carl Sagan, his books, TV stuff, and corduroy and polo shirt combos!

    I have the Cosmos box set on DVD, and never stop going on at people to read that book. :)
    Oh, and "Contact" for me is one of the best SF books ever.

    They don't make atheists like they used too. ;)


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 23,556 ✭✭✭✭Sir Digby Chicken Caesar


    'A demon haunted world' was a great book, really enjoyed reading it.


  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 10,518 Mod ✭✭✭✭5uspect


    Overblood wrote: »
    I'd prefer not to use the word prayer, but I know what you mean!
    pbd.jpg

    Prayer is totally the wrong word!


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 27,857 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    I haven't read any of Sagan's work (I will some day!), but there's a load of videos on YouTube and I love them :)

    This video explained evolution particularly clearly to me:


    And this is just a beautiful video that I watch from time to time to put things into perspective :):


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,359 ✭✭✭Overblood


    If that video above isn't proof of evolution then I dunno what is.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 553 ✭✭✭Futurism


    Pale Blue Dot is fantastic really. I havent read any of his work either. But I plan on doing so soon.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,359 ✭✭✭Overblood


    I hope I don't shatter any illusions by saying this, but did you know that he was an avid pot-smoker? Smoked the stuff till the day he died!


  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 10,518 Mod ✭✭✭✭5uspect


    Overblood wrote: »
    I hope I don't shatter any illusions by saying this, but did you know that he was an avid pot-smoker? Smoked the stuff till the day he died!

    Cos that's a sin, right? :pac:


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,359 ✭✭✭Overblood


    I know a lot of people think drugs are bad mmkay. Mightn't be too happy if they find out he was a smoker!

    I don't want to cheapen the threda, but this is kind of funny::pac:
    The Top 12 Theories Developed by Carl Sagan While Stoned


    12. The period of rotation of Pulsar JC9270 totally synchs up with
    the drum solo in In A Gadda Da Vida, man!

    11. "Twinkies, Twinkies, little stars; seem so close, yet are so far."

    10. The Theory of Munchitivity: At times, peanut butter is more
    valuable than gold

    9. The sensor casing from a mass spectrometer makes a handy roach
    clip

    8. "Some day, with all of our advances in science and technology,
    we'll be able to land a man on the sun."

    7. The Big Bong Theory

    6. If you took a hit while travelling at the speed of light, you'd get one
    major rush, dude.

    5. Betty Crocker brownies > Duncan Hines brownies

    4. "Theory of Joint Relativity": A complex quantum physics equation
    that proves that the more pot you smoke, the slower your
    automobile travels with you at the wheel.

    3. Floyd rocks!

    2. A single "You Are Here" sign will work EVERYwhere.

    and the Number 1 Theory Developed by Carl Sagan While Stoned...

    1. Wow, man! There are, like, a LOT of stars. There must be
    *hundreds* of 'em. Maybe even *thousands*. No... millions and
    millions! Wait -- I'm onto something here...


    saganuceb0.gif


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 261 ✭✭redtom


    Overblood wrote: »
    I hope I don't shatter any illusions by saying this, but did you know that he was an avid pot-smoker? Smoked the stuff till the day he died!

    and?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,379 ✭✭✭toiletduck


    He was a cool mo'fo'.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,359 ✭✭✭Overblood


    redtom wrote: »
    and?

    What do you mean "and"?:confused:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,045 ✭✭✭Húrin


    Indeed, that photo presents a shift in consciousness almost as profound as the observations of Copernicus. Not only does everything not revolve around earth, but even the sun is relatively peripheral in the universal scheme.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Personally I always found this picture more mind expanding than the pale blue dot

    thumb-hubble_galaxies.jpg

    This is a picture taken by Hubble telescope of a tiny fraction of light in the corner of the night sky. The mind expanding bit comes when we realise that the tiny speck of light is actually a number of galaxy clusters, each with hundreds of galaxies, each with billions of stars, and trillions of planets.

    And that is just a tiny speck of light in the night sky.

    The pale blue dot I feel is some what misleading because if gives the impression that even far away the Earth is visible, and thus has some sort of relevance. But really when the picture was taken Voyager was not "far away" at all. In the scheme of things it was really really close to Earth.

    I think it is important for people to grasp how big the universe really is. Even the observable universe may only be a tiny fraction of that actual size of the universe. The universe is big. It is bigger than we can really imagine.

    This spills over into areas such as Creationism when people start talking about Earth and life on Earth as being special in the grand scheme of things, the idea that we must have been put here by something.

    That makes sense when the universe extends to the glass sphere surrounding the Earth known as the "heavens", but it loses all plausibility when you look at how big the universe actually is. There are probably billions of planets very similar to Earth that probably have chemical life on them. That is even when one considers life arising as being very very unlikely.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,718 ✭✭✭The Mad Hatter


    Wicknight wrote: »
    I think it is important for people to grasp how big the universe really is. Even the observable universe may only be a tiny fraction of that actual size of the universe. The universe is big. It is bigger than we can really imagine.

    Space is big. Really big. It might seem a long way to the corner chemist's, but that's just peanuts to space. :D


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    From "Contact".
    Carl Sagan wrote:
    The universe is a pretty big place. It's bigger than anything anyone has ever dreamed of before. So if it's just us... seems like an awful waste of space...


  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 10,518 Mod ✭✭✭✭5uspect


    Wicknight wrote: »
    Personally I always found this picture more mind expanding than the pale blue dot

    Ah that's nothing, the Ultra deep field is way more mind blowing!
    http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/56533main_MM_image_feature_142_jwfull.jpg

    I think the subject of Earth in the Pale Blue Dot is far more poignant and physically meaningful than some monstrously huge image of 10,000 galaxies in an area the size of a pea in the night sky however.

    Zoomy version here:
    http://www.wikisky.org/?img_source=IMG_all&zoom=13&ra=3.54417&de=-27.7914


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 41 bocha


    Ah that's nothing, the Ultra deep field is way more mind blowing!

    that looks just like my kitchen worktop! - what if....??:confused:


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,353 ✭✭✭Goduznt Xzst


    Overblood wrote: »
    I hope I don't shatter any illusions by saying this, but did you know that he was an avid pot-smoker? Smoked the stuff till the day he died!

    Expected really, since Carl knew better than most the direction this planet is heading in. The best way to understand the paradox that is the conditions for a lot of life in the universe yet the complete lack of any evidence of technologically advanced life is that as a species reaches technological advancement it quickly destroys itself. Earth would seem to be a case in point.
    Wicknight wrote: »
    Personally I always found this picture more mind expanding than the pale blue dot

    thumb-hubble_galaxies.jpg

    Most of these images can be seen here:

    http://www.google.com/sky/

    Specifically if you look at the Aegis Survey, covering a minuscule part of the nights sky and reckoned to show at least 50,000 Galaxies.

    I think the issue Carl had was how do you get people to understand something as large as the Universe. It's uncomprehendable. I think once you get past a certain scale you stop being able to visualize it. Most people would go through the majority of their life without spending a passing moment thinking about how they are on a tiny hunk of rock hurtling through a vast expansive void that could easily be destroyed in an instance. They are not aware that their position in the universe is constantly moving as the earth rotates and as it orbits the sun.

    I think once you understand not only our own insignificance, but also the insignificance of our Sun, or our solar system or even our galaxy that you start to see how arrogant it is for humans to imagine that they are so important in the scheme of things that they can get on their knees and pray and that some God who created all this, spends all his times reworking the world to keep us happy, putting us through trials to test our faith and keeping a record of our sexual activities.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,888 ✭✭✭AtomicHorror


    In terms of perspective, I quite like this vid:



    It helps you get the scale thing in your head, though of course the space between and the sheer number of stars is a whole other brain melter.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,180 ✭✭✭Mena


    In terms of perspective, I quite like this vid:

    I love that vid as well. My 6 year old won't let a day go by without having watched it at least once!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,788 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    5uspect wrote: »
    Ah that's nothing, the Ultra deep field is way more mind blowing!
    http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/56533main_MM_image_feature_142_jwfull.jpg
    It'll have to go.

    MrP


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,718 ✭✭✭The Mad Hatter


    AH: Wow...:eek:

    Douglas Adams told me we orbited a middle-sized star!


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    MrPudding wrote: »
    It'll have to go.
    Initially I though Mad Hatter had got that reference before me (above)! I thought that's just not Krikket. ;)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,353 ✭✭✭Goduznt Xzst


    Dades wrote: »
    that's just not Krikket. ;)

    *groan*


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,016 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    Overblood wrote: »
    I see Hitchens, Dawkins, and Darwin mentioned here a lot, and for good reason. Feck, even our imaginary friend God gets more mention around here than Sagan. So I was thinking maybe we could get a bit of a "Hail Sagan" thread going.:pac:

    I know he is mostly remembered for physics and astronomy, but he was also a fervent atheist.

    So, where do I start?... Has anyone here seen his Cosmos series?

    I've read Billions and Billions and Daemon Haunted World. The former beats the later.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,454 ✭✭✭bogwalrus


    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe."


    unreal.=)


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,349 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    Sagan I admire a lot but not for the reasons most people would think.

    The man was clearly smart and intelligent, I grant him that, but he did not have a whole lot of original ideas of his own. He will never be an Einstein or a Newton.

    What he achieved was much more important in my view however. Science progresses despite lack of interest and knowledge. Geniuses like Darwin for example reached their conclusions DESPITE the ignorance of the time.

    We can respect Darwin for this and I really do, but the dynamic is all wrong. People should be reaching these conclusions because of the general knowledge of the time not despite of it.

    What Sagan did was therefore more important than anything Einstein, Darwin or Newton ever did because in a world of Sagans what those scientists did would have been easier.

    What did he do?

    He interpreted science…. Read it…. Learned it….. understood it.... and then articulated it in a form that the general public could swallow. He provided something that the scientific community then AND now completely and depressingly lack…. A voice.

    Science is NOTORIOUSLY bad at conveying its ideas to the public. Dawkins talks at length about this failing in many of his talks and Douglas Adams in his writings clearly despaired at this lack in the scientific community. What proof does one need of this but to look at the harm and ignorance perpetuated by the phrase "survival of the fittest"

    Peer reviewed papers may be the be all and end all of science but they are boring as f**k to Joe Soap. Sagan made these things interesting, understandable and showed why they actually matter.

    When people like Hitchens say things like “How can you look through the Hubble telescope at the vast majesty of the university and turn away from this and stare instead in awe at the burning bush” they may be saying wonderful well articulated things for which we desire to give them credit…. But I feel they are merely borrowing from the legacy Carl Sagan left us.

    But proper order and long may they do it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,359 ✭✭✭Overblood


    Sagan I admire a lot but not for the reasons most people would think:

    That's the reason everybody admires him isn't it? He was a great popularizer of science. THE great popularizer.

    The narrators on discovery's astronomy programs are lifeless nowadays. You can tell they are reading form a script and from the tone of their voice you can ell that they are not too passionate about it either. With Carl Sagan as a narrator/presenter, you can see that he loves teaching people about science, and his passion becomes kind of infectious and transfers over to you.


  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 10,518 Mod ✭✭✭✭5uspect


    Overblood wrote: »
    That's the reason everybody admires him isn't it? He was a great popularizer of science. THE great popularizer.

    The narrators on discovery's astronomy programs are lifeless nowadays. You can tell they are reading form a script and from the tone of their voice you can ell that they are not too passionate about it either. With Carl Sagan as a narrator/presenter, you can see that he loves teaching people about science, and his passion becomes kind of infectious and transfers over to you.

    Have you played the Simpsons Game? They have a Saganesque narrator in the planetarium.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emRKIiW5FsY


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 842 ✭✭✭daycent


    I just know of him because of the movie 'Contact' unfortunately.

    Oh, and that he has a seriously cool name!:D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,359 ✭✭✭Overblood


    For those of you who read Contact, at the very end doesn't Sagan:
    hint at the possibility of a creator?

    Or am I remembering incorrectly.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,454 ✭✭✭bogwalrus


    family guy have him in their show.

    Its very funny;

    Cosmos for Rednecks=)

    Link:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TthHltjrvA


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,718 ✭✭✭The Mad Hatter


    bogwalrus wrote: »
    family guy have him in their show.

    Its very funny;

    Cosmos for Rednecks=)

    Link:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TthHltjrvA

    Pfft - Family Guy isn't funny!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,353 ✭✭✭Goduznt Xzst


    Pfft - Family Guy isn't funny!

    :eek: I see a schism coming.

    No longer will I accept your false teachings about the lack of humor in family guy. From this day forth Atheists who adhere to laughing at Peter Griffins aphorisms will be known as "The Atheist fellowship of Peter Griffinites" (aka First United Church of the Fonz)

    Now if someone could point me in the direction of the closest Atheist HQ's, I'll get my copies of family guy nailed to the door as soon as possible.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,497 ✭✭✭✭Dragan


    Overblood wrote: »
    I hope I don't shatter any illusions by saying this, but did you know that he was an avid pot-smoker? Smoked the stuff till the day he died!

    As did many great minds in history.

    So what?


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Pfft - Family Guy isn't funny!
    I respect your right to hold that opinion, sir, but not the opinion itself.
    Overblood wrote: »
    For those of you who read Contact, at the very end doesn't Sagan:
    hint at the possibility of a creator?

    Or am I remembering incorrectly.
    In the book - yeah.
    When 'pi' was printed out in a certain manner it displayed a circle. Very cool I thought!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,359 ✭✭✭Overblood


    Dragan wrote: »
    As did many great minds in history.

    So what?

    What's with people replying to me about Carl smoking cannabis with comments like "And?" "so?" "So what?"

    F*ck, I mention something about his life and you reply "so what"? What if I said "did you know he lectured in Cornell Universtiy". Would you say "so what" to that?

    You could have just left it at:
    As did many great minds in history.


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Overblood wrote: »
    What's with people replying to me about Carl smoking cannabis with comments like "And?" "so?" "So what?"
    Your post implied that smoking pot might shatter people's illusions.
    Overblood wrote:
    I hope I don't shatter any illusions by saying this...
    People are reacting to that it seems.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,359 ✭✭✭Overblood


    Dades wrote: »
    In the book - yeah.
    When 'pi' was printed out in a certain manner it displayed a circle. Very cool I thought!

    There's a possibility he could have thought that in real life...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,609 ✭✭✭Flamed Diving




  • Closed Accounts Posts: 165 ✭✭Woger


    Watch cosmos here.
    http://www.hulu.com/cosmos


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Woger wrote: »
    Watch cosmos here.
    http://www.hulu.com/cosmos
    It seems you need to be in the US, or use a US proxy to view those.


  • Registered Users Posts: 351 ✭✭Tyler MacDurden


    Dades wrote: »
    It seems you need to be in the US, or use a US proxy to view those.

    A solution for us Outlanders -

    http://anchorfree.com/downloads/hotspot-shield/

    - as suggested by a guy on RD's website. Apparently it hides your IP address/location, worked for him in Germany.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,609 ✭✭✭Flamed Diving


    Is Cosmos worth watching? I figured it might be a bit dated now.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,359 ✭✭✭Overblood


    Is Cosmos worth watching? I figured it might be a bit dated now.

    Cosmos is one of the greatest television series ever made. Officially! The best thing about Cosmos is that the narrator, Sagan himself, is so passionate about the subject matter. All the science programs on Discovery lack that personal touch as it's obviously some guy reading from a script, waiting for 5pm so he can go home and have his dinner. Carl Sagan lived for this stuff.

    Basically, watch it!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 698 ✭✭✭nitrogen


    Also a massive fan of Carl Sagan.

    For anyone that hasn't read his work, I highly recommend both Cosmos and Pale Blue Dot. Both are fantastic pieces of work. Cosmos for me is slightly better as it's not only a journey through the solar system, but a voyage through our civilisation's discover of science.

    Contact is also one of my favourite science-fiction films.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 165 ✭✭Woger


    Is Cosmos worth watching? I figured it might be a bit dated now.

    I haven't watched it all yet but imagine David Attenborough doing astronomy.


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