Rippetoe's Squat Form

d-gal · 19-02-2009 06:24PM

g'em wrote: »

I'd find it hard to believe that someone who has never competed/ performed at high level (even badly!) would have the knowledge and experience to be a brilliant coach.

I would agree in some sense but it depends on what type of coach. Look at Steve Black, probably one of the greatest coaches in the world. The man looks like he has never lifted a weight in his life. He never played a decent level of soccer or rugby yet he has been one of the key reasons that Jonny Wilkinson has been one of the greatest athletes in his sport

Hanley · 19-02-2009 06:54PM

Jimmy Bottlehead wrote: »

True, but people on this board (well most ) don't put themselves forward as an expert coach.

Who's to say knees going forward is bad? Look at olympic weightlifters.

DM-BM wrote: »

So far the most i've squated is 132.5kg x 5 , 132.5kg x3, 132.5kgx 2 @88kg done attempting to employ his techniques.The problem i have Hanley, is having read SS and constantly dipping back into it to try to improve from when it slips, it has become the only way i know.

When i see people here or on other forums giving out advice, well it's never going to be as comprehensive as the squat chapter in SS, so i find it hard to try other ways as i don't have as much of a reference to go off as i do with SS.

When you say "falling forward" are you referring to back angle or knees going forward?
He does advocate leaning forward to get the bar over the middle of the foot.

By falling forward I mean look at the way his chest drops and the weight is shifted forward. That is not a good thing when you're trying to squat big weight.

DM-BM wrote: »

He was a competative powerlifter, before he became a coach, i don't think he was very sucessful, max deadlift was 611lbs. I think he was also a US team oly lifting coach.

A big deadlfit does not a good powerlifter make! What were his other lifts like?

MS2008 wrote: »

I wouldn't buy into that at all.. Many of the best coaches weren't experts themselves. As long as the coach has good ideas and can improve the athlete then who cares how good they are or were!

You'd expect basic proficiency tho. It's not a complicated movement pattern, and considering how long he's training you'd think he'd have it down by now. The weight isn't even an excuse because it's not all that high.

No?

BTW I'm still in work, so my replies are short out of neccessity, not rudenss!

Jimmy Bottlehead · 19-02-2009 07:14PM

Hanley wrote: »

Who's to say knees going forward is bad? Look at olympic weightlifters.

I was under the impression that your knees shouldn't extend beyond your toes?

Having watched your squats you seem to conform to this too, no?

Hanley · 19-02-2009 08:20PM

Jimmy Bottlehead wrote: »

I was under the impression that your knees shouldn't extend beyond your toes?

Having watched your squats you seem to conform to this too, no?

Well.... yes and no to the first part.

If you're getting below parallel with a close stance, your knees HAVE to go over your toes or you'll fall arse over tit. With a wide stance, because you're sitting back more and leaning forward your knees don't have to go as far.

Keeping your knees behind your toes is something that is worth bearing in mind for guys that squat high. You see it all time in gyms, they break at the knees, let them drift forwards, their heels almost lift, and they don't get within 6 inches of parallel. THAT's when you start to fcuk up your kness.

When I bury squats close stance my knees go forward, when I sit back and go below parallel, they tend to stay over my toes.

See these two vids for comparison;

170kg x5

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4mETY099ks

200kg x5

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuQPi1g-z-g

DM-BM · 19-02-2009 08:33PM

Hanley wrote: »

Who's to say knees going forward is bad? Look at olympic weightlifters.

Well he does, because he believes it removes the hamstrings out if the movement, and that your squat will be stronger with them in it.
Weightlifters doing high bar squats i don't think is a good comparison.It's a fairly different movement, don't you think?

Hanley wrote: »

By falling forward I mean look at the way his chest drops and the weight is shifted forward. That is not a good thing when you're trying to squat big weight. .

Fair enough, but he makes a point of keeping your chest up in SS.
Do you object to these squats or his theory on squats, because they are not exactly the same?

Hanley wrote: »

A big deadlfit does not a good powerlifter make! What were his other lifts like?.

I know, i didn't say he was, that comment was in response to g'em saying she thinks coaches need to have competed at a hihgh level, to be any good.
I don't know what his other lifts were like to be honest.

Hanley wrote: »

You'd expect basic proficiency tho. It's not a complicated movement pattern, and considering how long he's training you'd think he'd have it down by now. The weight isn't even an excuse because it's not all that high.

his ability to teach the movement isn't dictated by his ability to perform the movement, and they were never put up as an example of how it should be done.

Mikel · 19-02-2009 08:37PM

re squat technique, is it more correct to have your head up or down?
Why are the posters here convinced you should look up?

I'm not saying you're wrong, but presumably 'correct' form is based on sound biomechanical principles, I'd like to know what they are.
There are probably lots of videos around with top lifters doing things that are idiosyncratic and they can get away with them, so if it's just a case of 'that's what people do' then I wouldn't find that convincing.

Does the same apply to the deadlift?, should the head be up or down?
If it's down why the difference?

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance_repair/5_common_technique_mistakes
Here Cressey mentions cervical hyperextension in the deadlift, maybe thats where Rippetoe is coming from?

It does look very flaccid at the bottom doesn't it?
seems to have a significant 'butt wink' too

Hanley · 19-02-2009 08:40PM

DM-BM wrote: »

Well he does, because he believes it removes the hamstrings out if the movement, and that your squat will be stronger with them in it.

I must be an oddity then because my hamstrings are always in bits where they tie into my glutes after close stance oly style squats!!

If you're going deep with a close stance, you knees HAVE to go forward of your toes. There's simply no two ways about it.

Weightlifters doing high bar squats i don't think is a good comparison.It's a fairly different movement, don't you think?

Not really tbh. Pound for pound, elite weightlifters have some of the best squats on the planet.

Fair enough, but he makes a point of keeping your chest up in SS.
Do you object to these squats or his theory on squats, because they are not exactly the same?

I think his form in the vid is sh1t. I'll admit that.

I think looking down, as he says in SS, is dumb.

I think lifting your elbows to keep the bar in place is crazy bad.

He has some nice theories and coaching tips, but I think some of the things he suggests are a terrible idea when trying to squat big weights.

I know, i didn't say he was, that comment was in response to g'em saying she thinks coaches need to have competed at a hihgh level, to be any good.
I don't know what his other lifts were like to be honest.

But the implication of your post was that he competed at a high level no??

He may have had a great deadlift, but without knowing his squat and bench (and bodyweight at the time) we don't know how competitive he was.

his ability to teach the movement isn't dictated by his ability to perform the movement, and they were never put up as an example of how it should be done.

I know, but you would expect a level of basic competency surely??

LightningBolt · 19-02-2009 08:47PM

g'em wrote: »

I'd find it hard to believe that someone who has never competed/ performed at high level (even badly!) would have the knowledge and experience to be a brilliant coach.

Ah come on now there's definitely people who've coached at a high level without actually playing at a high level.

Jose Mourinho Soccer
Arsene Wenger Soccer
Scotty Bowman NHL (9 Stanley Cups I think)
There's a whole raft of coaches in the NFL who've never played nfl but they're exceptionally good at what they do.

Transform · 19-02-2009 09:29PM

Ok guys and girls lets close the discussion on being great and coaching and just say each to their own and have a look at the squat for what it is.

His squat IMO is nice and deep but the head thing i do not get.

No i have not read starting strength and never will really as its just a rehash or everything stuart mcrobert (20plus pages in his technique book on squats alone - and needs updating) and all the old writers for Hardgainer and ironmind have said donkey's years ago.

I for one do claim to be an expert and my opinion as a coach is his head should be up and the squat is ONE exercise not a complete program.

Finally i would prefer if people on boards would STOP recommending starting strength and simply put up a sticky on what a general beginners weights program should look like - why direct people else where when the info is right here - can be called

The Apprentice weights program to looking amazing!!!

Edwardius · 19-02-2009 09:51PM

DM-BM wrote: »

He was a competative powerlifter, before he became a coach, i don't think he was very sucessful, max deadlift was 611lbs. I think he was also a US team oly lifting coach.

Aye, think he pulled 622 and squatted 611 with a belt (and possibly wraps. Dunno about a suit). It's on his forum somewhere. He does have hernias and all sorts of injuries all over the shop so that could be part of it.

I think the "falling forward" thing is the "hip drive" he talks about.

Fair fecks to him either way for not being permanently on the couch/in the pub at that age..

DM-BM · 19-02-2009 09:58PM

Transform wrote: »

His squat IMO is nice and deep but the head thing i do not get.

No i have not read starting strength and never will really as its just a rehash or everything stuart mcrobert (20plus pages in his technique book on squats alone - and needs updating) and all the old writers for Hardgainer and ironmind have said donkey's years ago.

You should read it, if you did then you would see that it is not the same as Mcroberts take on technique, or on training.Look at Brawn alone, there is so many variations of programes its hard to know where to start. I own three books by Stuart McRobert and SS made alot more sense to me.Look, why is SS so popular, Rip didn't invent 3x5, or the basic lifts that SS is comprised of, the only thing unique about it is his analysis of both the squat and the deadlift, as is evident from this very thread.

Transform wrote: »

I for one do claim to be an expert and my opinion as a coach is his head should be up and the squat is ONE exercise not a complete program.

Do you not think that is more than a little arrogant, to consider yourself an expert at 32?

Transform wrote: »

Finally i would prefer if people on boards would STOP recommending starting strength and simply put up a sticky on what a general beginners weights program should look like - why direct people else where when the info is right here - can be called

The Apprentice weights program to looking amazing!!!

Why, when it works. What if you want to get strong, and you don't care about looking amazing, it's not about abs for everyone.

Mikel · 19-02-2009 10:10PM

Transform wrote: »

I for one do claim to be an expert and my opinion as a coach is his head should be up.............

Why?
Why does he say different?

Transform · 19-02-2009 10:19PM

If SS works for you and your getting stronger then great - keep it up.

I have worked face to face, toe to toe with clients for over 10years now so yes i do claim to be an expert, a coach, a trainer whatever. Yes i am still learning but have put in the hours and degree to make my claim.

I am not saying it does not work - it sounds farrr better than the usual junk that people do so great but its still nothing new and i see no reason to direct readers elsewhere when there is lots of adequate info here. The whole basis of what i was suggesting is to put up a guide for a beginner who want to get stong and lean,do not tell me most do not want to be lean also as 99% of the people i deal with state this as a primary aim.

Jimmy Bottlehead · 19-02-2009 10:21PM

DM-BM wrote: »

Why, when it works. What if you want to get strong, and you don't care about looking amazing, it's not about abs for everyone.

P!ss all people care about being strong, they just want to look good. Same with me. I enjoy the Sense of accomplishment I get from lifting heavier all the time, but I do it to look better, not for the sake of strength.

Same with 99% of people, as Transform correctly said.

corribdude · 19-02-2009 10:28PM

DM-BM wrote: »

Do you not think that is more than a little arrogant, to consider yourself an expert at 32?

Tons of people are experts at different things at even younger ages. Tiger Woods, Michael Phelps, virtuoso musicians, chess grandmasters, etc...it is not arrogant at all to consider yourself an expert at something if you actually are, no matter what your age.

kevpants · 19-02-2009 10:32PM

+1 for a "How to Squat" stickie.

I think SS is great because it gets people performing the core lifts (somewhat) correctly and seems to have brought that to the masses. Nothing is perfect, and neither is SS.

It's a good basis to start but as you progress I feel people following it will begin to question it. I used to encorporate his hip drive into my squat. I think it did me the world of good in getting started simply because it made me think about the movement and what muscles I was activating but now I know it's just not feasible to bring your hips up faster than the bar with really big weight. I lost one too many squats falling forward because of it.

I have to say Rip you squats suck and your theories are wrong.

But you book isn't a bad start in the evolution of a squatter.

token · 19-02-2009 11:41PM

Rip talking about the video in question
http://www.strengthmill.net/forum/showpost.php?p=12355&postcount=15

Rip giving his powerlifting totals
http://www.strengthmill.net/forum/showpost.php?p=14956&postcount=7

There seems to be alot of hostility on this board to certain disciplines such as SS and say crossfit. Even if you personally don't subscribe to them they are still better than 95% of the ****e a regular gym goer does. Yes we get the fact that a competive powerlifter will not benefit from them but no need to rubbish every routine that won't get you a 600lb suited bench press.

Roper · 19-02-2009 11:42PM

g'em wrote: »

Ah, this I agree with, but initially you said:

I'd find it hard to believe that someone who has never competed/ performed at high level (even badly!) would have the knowledge and experience to be a brilliant coach.

My mistake, I wasn't clear. I was putting Cus D'Amato forward as someone who had never performed in the sport at all.

There are gazillions of watchers, people who excel at coaching and have the gift of being able to impart messages to others, without being able to actually perform what they're getting at.

Think of the top 4 premiership managers of the last 10 years. Mourinho, Ferguson, Wenger, Benitez. All with average or non-existent pro careers. It's even more common in boxing where it's actually almost a detriment to be a former champ it seems.

Roper · 20-02-2009 12:03AM

corribdude wrote: »

Tons of people are experts at different things at even younger ages. Tiger Woods, Michael Phelps, virtuoso musicians, chess grandmasters, etc...it is not arrogant at all to consider yourself an expert at something if you actually are, no matter what your age.

STOP! Athletes are no experts. I bet Michael Phelps could tell you lots about how HE swims but not too much about how to make you doggy paddle. Tiger Woods is a smart guy but probably wouldn't be able to teach you how to play golf, or even know how he does most of the things he does. That's what I'm getting at.

@ Transform,
I have to say that when I read the "head down" style in SS I was a bit surprised. In fairness though, he doesn't say head down he says keep your spine straight and that looking at the ceiling complicates the movement and adds pressure to the cervical spine. He's not alone in that advice. Surely for any decent critique though, you must read the book. In the intro he actually says something along the lines of "there's nothing new in this book". It's a simplified lifting programme for beginners. To blanket say that you will never read something because you assume it won't tell you anything is a bit crass. I've seen a lot in 8 years coaching, like yourself, and I'm never going to pick up a book and have it rock my world ever again. But one nugget of info in 400 pages is worth it for me these days.

For me, starting strength and the associated programmes that get posted are far from optimal for beginners or otherwise. But they are simple and easy to follow, and they introduce all of the major lifts. What I don't like is the dogmatic approach of some "followers". Rip says 3 days, Rip reccomends 3 gallons of milk and so on. I don't think it's a great template but it is a good, simple, easy to follow book that sets people on the right path without overloading them.

Mikel · 20-02-2009 12:07AM

kevpants wrote: »

It's a good basis to start but as you progress I feel people following it will begin to question it. I used to encorporate his hip drive into my squat. I think it did me the world of good in getting started simply because it made me think about the movement and what muscles I was activating but now I know it's just not feasible to bring your hips up faster than the bar with really big weight. I lost one too many squats falling forward because of it

I am driving my hips up in what I consider to be the correct use of the posterior chain.

So who is right?
I have read a few of his posts in the past where he critiques squat form, and his big hobby horse seems to be 'leg pressing with a barbell', so he seems to emphasise hip drive a lot.
Is he over compensating in order to ensure the activation of the posterior chain?

How can something so fundamental as a squat be the cause of disagreement over form?

gabgab · 20-02-2009 01:16AM

This thread is kind of funny,

Transform 99% of statistics people make up are nonsense. What I would like to say is compare the advice given with 99%

of the advice a new person in a gym would recieve from a trainer or personal trainer.

I do agree that he has a cult like following and people do need to assess what works for them. That said anyone I talked to that followed the programme properly, and did it right with the correct diet and calories saw marked improvements and physical changes,

Whether the person wants to get bigger, leaner or whatever the goal most of this will come about from diet not from the training you may give them transform, would that not be fair to say? Chunky monkey is also a bit harsh, he is 43, and never claimed to be a expert on getting on the cover of mens health.

Also agree with Roper, people that achieve amazing things in sport or elsewhere in life mainly do it because its what they eat sleep and drink and most have done for all their lives. It consumes them, the Cus Damato example is spot on.

Just like the guy that coaches tiger woods swing didnt win the masters and break records left right and center does'nt mean he cannot coach Tigers swing, can he copy tigers swing and pattern, highly unlikely but he still coaches him,

http://www.hankhaney.com/AboutHank/HanksBiography/tabid/180/Default.aspx

Haney said Woods is relentless in his desire to improve and that he typically gets phone calls from Woods soon after every competitive round, seeking his coach’s help in analyzing his swing and strategy.

If you have seen his swing (squat) it aint exactly pretty, but he coaches the greatest golfer in the world,

I would also like to see what Rippetoe's exact thinking behind head down is, whilst some of the elite powerlifters may do it, G'em & Hanley I would like to see why he says to do it, NOT what other people on the board do.

celestial · 20-02-2009 01:39AM

Roper wrote: »

STOP! Athletes are no experts. I bet Michael Phelps could tell you lots about how HE swims but not too much about how to make you doggy paddle. Tiger Woods is a smart guy but probably wouldn't be able to teach you how to play golf, or even know how he does most of the things he does. That's what I'm getting at.

@ Transform,
I have to say that when I read the "head down" style in SS I was a bit surprised. In fairness though, he doesn't say head down he says keep your spine straight and that looking at the ceiling complicates the movement and adds pressure to the cervical spine. He's not alone in that advice. Surely for any decent critique though, you must read the book. In the intro he actually says something along the lines of "there's nothing new in this book". It's a simplified lifting programme for beginners. To blanket say that you will never read something because you assume it won't tell you anything is a bit crass. I've seen a lot in 8 years coaching, like yourself, and I'm never going to pick up a book and have it rock my world ever again. But one nugget of info in 400 pages is worth it for me these days.

For me, starting strength and the associated programmes that get posted are far from optimal for beginners or otherwise. But they are simple and easy to follow, and they introduce all of the major lifts. What I don't like is the dogmatic approach of some "followers". Rip says 3 days, Rip reccomends 3 gallons of milk and so on. I don't think it's a great template but it is a good, simple, easy to follow book that sets people on the right path without overloading them.

Hold the phone a minute on SS - do you think it is a good, simple easy to follow book with 45 pages on the squat alone? I'm actually kinda mystified about the while SS focus on this board whenever someone new comes along, like 'hey I know feck all about lifting but I do know I want to get built and lose fat by lifting weights' - how can ya'll help me out? And then someone comes on and recommends a book that is a gazillion pages long written by an osteopath and a powerlifter and talks about the posterior chain and a million other things that don't mean, yes, I'm gonna do it, squat!!! to a newbie.

Reckon we should be doing as transform suggests and start building out something uber-simple on this board along these lines:

So you wanna get muscular n lean?

Here's your getting started guide

>

Benefits of weight-lifting

importance of diet

how to squat
how to deadlift
how to bench

how to {insert rows, dips, chins, supplementary exercises here}

importance of rest

etc.

Hanley · 20-02-2009 01:45AM

Dead Ed wrote: »

I think the "falling forward" thing is the "hip drive" he talks about.

If that's the case, it's ridiculous. What is "hip drive"?? I'm pretty sure I couldn't squat anything without my hips being involved, and I don't have to bend over and look at the floor to do it!!

Hanley · 20-02-2009 02:04AM

token wrote: »

Rip talking about the video in question
http://www.strengthmill.net/forum/showpost.php?p=12355&postcount=15

"I am not losing thoracic extension on the way down, at all. There is no change in the intervertebral relationships of my thoracic vertebrae. Cover my head with your thumb when you watch the video and you'll see that this is true. I tend to drop my head as I approach the bottom, and that may be creating the appearance of a gigantic thoracic shift."

He's not losing it cos it's not there to begin with. Doesn't dropping his head go against his theory of perfect spinal alignment?

"2. The 'butt wink" that makes so many CFers uncomfortable is sometimes just a change in shape of the glutes as they stretch out in the hole"

C'mon... seriously. What a crock of sh!t.

There seems to be alot of hostility on this board to certain disciplines such as SS and say crossfit. Even if you personally don't subscribe to them they are still better than 95% of the ****e a regular gym goer does. Yes we get the fact that a competive powerlifter will not benefit from them but no need to rubbish every routine that won't get you a 600lb suited bench press.

A lot of hostility you say....? Like the hostility you're displaying towards powerlifting now? Are you the kettle or the pot?

Who is the "we" you talk about in your post anyway? The collective "we"? As in the Crossfit cult followers?

g'em · 20-02-2009 10:19AM

LightningBolt wrote: »

Ah come on now there's definitely people who've coached at a high level without actually playing at a high level.

Jose Mourinho Soccer
Arsene Wenger Soccer
Scotty Bowman NHL (9 Stanley Cups I think)
There's a whole raft of coaches in the NFL who've never played nfl but they're exceptionally good at what they do.

Roper wrote: »

There are gazillions of watchers, people who excel at coaching and have the gift of being able to impart messages to others, without being able to actually perform what they're getting at.

Fair enough, when I was thinking of coaches admittedly the examples that sprang to mind were largely those involved in strength sports or disciplines with a large strength element.

Personally speaking if I had a coach with no experience in my sport it wouldn't exactly instill a particularly strong sense of ease...

Transform wrote: »

Finally i would prefer if people on boards would STOP recommending starting strength and simply put up a sticky on what a general beginners weights program should look like - why direct people else where when the info is right here - can be called

The Apprentice weights program to looking amazing!!!

kevpants wrote: »

+1 for a "How to Squat" stickie.

celestial wrote: »

Reckon we should be doing as transform suggests and start building out something uber-simple on this board along these lines:

So you wanna get muscular n lean?

Here's your getting started guide

>

Benefits of weight-lifting

importance of diet

how to squat
how to deadlift
how to bench

how to {insert rows, dips, chins, supplementary exercises here}

importance of rest

etc.

If folk on the board want to put together a "Beginner's Guide" that would be fantaberoony and I'll gladly sticky it. My only concern would be the potential for boards.ie liability though...

WolfForager · 20-02-2009 01:36PM

Bit off the main topic here but...

Wouldn't it better to make a "Guide to the Big Three" sticky rather than just squats? God knows i want to start deadlifting soon, but i don't know much about it despite watching aload of Riptoe's vids.

Roper · 20-02-2009 02:16PM

celestial wrote: »

Hold the phone a minute on SS - do you think it is a good, simple easy to follow book with 45 pages on the squat alone? I'm actually kinda mystified about the while SS focus on this board whenever someone new comes along, like 'hey I know feck all about lifting but I do know I want to get built and lose fat by lifting weights' - how can ya'll help me out? And then someone comes on and recommends a book that is a gazillion pages long written by an osteopath and a powerlifter and talks about the posterior chain and a million other things that don't mean, yes, I'm gonna do it, squat!!! to a newbie.

I'm not saying it's perfect, but in fairness as a newbie with no coaching if you're not willing to read 45 pages of something simply written (it is very easy to read) then I have no sympathy for you.

Is it the best book ever written? No. It's not even the best lifting book ever written but it is easy to read and gives people a good start.

20-02-2009 03:08PM

Greetings from South America my fitness friends.

I think Starting Strength is a great book for the beginner who wants to learn more about compound lifts - it's a tool to help people learn and that's what I would use it for - not the be-all-end-all. When I first heard of crossfit and Starting Strength a few years ago, the one huge thing that kept putting me off was the "Cult" status behind it. That put me off it. When I would ask about crossfit online, and I'd get complicated answers when all I was looking for is "It's a fitness tool using compound lifts and bodyweight exercises" - that's my understanding of it anyway.

So in short it took me a while to respect what crossfit and particularly Starting Strength and Mark Rippetoe represented but now that I understand them more, I think they are both useful - the biggest problem anyone can give themselves is when they look at one or two program and tell themselves it's the best way to do something because there is no one way; almost as bad as cults!!!!!

It's important to open your mind and continuosly learn, not close yourself off because of your own ignorance.

kevpants · 20-02-2009 08:01PM

The thing about Rippetoe is he's not a great coach so the argument is invalid. Who's he ever coached? About a million average lifters. Who else?

corribdude · 20-02-2009 08:21PM

Roper wrote: »

STOP! Athletes are no experts. I bet Michael Phelps could tell you lots about how HE swims but not too much about how to make you doggy paddle. Tiger Woods is a smart guy but probably wouldn't be able to teach you how to play golf, or even know how he does most of the things he does. That's what I'm getting at.

Tiger Woods isn't an expert golfer? Michael Phelps isn't a expert swimmer? I never said they were expert coaches, I was just making the point that age isn't a factor when you are deciding if some is an expert in their field as someone said Transform couldn't be an expert in his at a mere 32 years of age.

Rippetoe's Squat Form

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