Rippetoe's Squat Form

Hanley

http://media.crossfit.com/cf-video/CrossFit_RipSquats315x10.wmv

Discuss.

BobbyOLeary

Youtube version

Rip Squats 315lbs x 10

Hanley

While we're at it, boards.ie version;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVKEl4Wxoqc

Colm_OReilly

Rip actually critiques his squat on his Q&A forum, but I can't find the thread atm.

kevpants

On rep 3 it gets a little heavy on the way back up so he forgets his "head down" mantra and looks up a little. Driving his head back and chest up, just like he should be doing anyway. Subsequently on rep 4 he's feeling a little shaky and doesn't quite get depth. In my opinion. Though maybe he did but he definitely didn't go AS deep.

Sorry Rip, Looking down in the squat = fail.

EDIT: Actually as the reps go on you can see he lifts his head a little more each time. He's just dying to squat properly but it's too late to change his teachings now!

Transform

Jesus put your bloody head up mate - never looked into this guy but overall its not too impressive and have seen better here.

He is a bit on the chunky monkey looking side also, could do with a bit of cardio. wraps and all for just 315lbs - 6.5 out of 10 from me. Transform Coach says - needs more work and lift your bloody head!!

Jimmy Bottlehead

Wow. Not impressive. And after all I've heard about Rip being some sort of God from a few people on here.

Kevpants, can you look dead ahead while squatting or is it perferable to look up (about 45 degrees or so)?

Roper

Some coaches can't play the game, doesn't mean they're not good coaches.

Transform

well its ok but not from someone that is putting himself out there as an expert.

BossArky

I have not yet watched the video above (as in work).

Hopefully it won't have me regretting the money I spent on Amazon for the second edition of Starting Strength :eek:

DM-BM

@ Transform and Kev

Can you explain what is so wrong with these, in detail?

Have you read Starting Strength, and do you understand his reasons for teaching the squat the way he does?

I think a 53 year old doing 143kg x 10, is pretty good going, a lot more weight for a lot more reps, than a lot of people on here.

Roper

Transform wrote: »

well its ok but not from someone that is putting himself out there as an expert.

I don't agree. I can list off athletics, boxing, gymnastics and lots of other coaches who have never performed the sport.

DM-BM

BossArky wrote: »

I have not yet watched the video above (as in work).

Hopefully it won't have me regretting the money I spent on Amazon for the second edition of Starting Strength :eek:

Why would it, there are a lot of 20 something arm chair experts on here, who think they've learnt more in 5 years lifting, than some one coaching for 30. Just because you can lift, doesn't mean you will be any good teaching it.

Watch the video, read and understand the book, try his techniques and make your own mind up.

I may have people wrong, but sometimes it seems, some people dismiss his methods, without reading or understanding the book.

g'em

Roper wrote: »

I can list off athletics, boxing, gymnastics and lots of other coaches who have never performed the sport.

How many of them are expert coaches though?

As an athlete I'll have more respect for someone who can walk the walk as well as talk the talk - someone who knows the highs and lows and the practical aspects of my sport. the point here is that for someone who touts themself as such an expert in a given field and purports that their training method is one of, if not THE, best going... Rip's squatting is sh!t.

DM-BM

g'em wrote: »

How many of them are expert coaches though?

As an athlete I'll have more respect for someone who can walk the walk as well as talk the talk - someone who knows the highs and lows and the practical aspects of my sport. the point here is that for someone who touts themself as such an expert in a given field and purports that their training method is one of, if not THE, best going... Rip's squatting is sh!t.

What's **** about it?

Jimmy Bottlehead

DM-BM wrote: »

What's **** about it?

His feet are pointing out too far aren't they? And (I'm VERY open to correction here) his knees seem to be going forward too much?

g'em

A 53 year old man squatting 140kg+ for reps is great, but given who this particular 53 year old is I expected a lot more. His form seems quite inconsistent and I really don't see the logic behind the head down thing.

DM-BM

Jimmy Bottlehead wrote: »

His feet are pointing out too far aren't they? And (I'm VERY open to correction here) his knees seem to be going forward too much?

It depends on what you believe a good squat looks like, as for his knees, they go less forward than some videos on this board.

DM-BM

g'em wrote: »

I really don't see the logic behind the head down thing.

Do you mean you've read the book and disagree, or you don't know why he advocates this?

Hanley

DM-BM wrote: »

What's **** about it?

DM-BM wrote: »

What's **** about it?

The big breath at the top. He should be breathing into his belly. Look at what happens after he does it, his chest drops.

The fact he drops into the hole and is soft as sh!t. Which is directly related to the point above and the fact he never tightens up before descending.

He’s looking down and falling forward. Fancy that.

Why’s he snapping the bar at the top? We get it, you’re “explosive”. How about some explosiveness out of the hole.

And that’s without mentioning the fact it’s 140kg x10 off someone who’s been training for what, 30-35 years?

There may be some armchair experts here, but it beats being an armchair fan boy.

Hanley

DM-BM wrote: »

Do you mean you've read the book and disagree, or you don't know why he advocates this?

Because he wants his lifters to fall forward like he does?

How much do you squat? Have you tried his techniques with heavy weights? Do you realise how ridiculous they are if you're squatting 1.5 - 2x bodyweight?

g'em

DM-BM wrote: »

Do you mean you've read the book and disagree, or you don't know why he advocates this?

Both.

Hanley wrote: »

He’s looking down and falling forward. Fancy that.

What ^^ he said. Granted, it's a while since I've read the book, but doesn't he say you should look forward for squats in it? I rate the book highly myself, I've no issues with it. My issue is simply with the form of the guy behind it.

BossArky

DM-BM wrote: »

Why would it, there are a lot of 20 something arm chair experts on here, who think they've learnt more in 5 years lifting, than some one coaching for 30. Just because you can lift, doesn't mean you will be any good teaching it.

Watch the video, read and understand the book, try his techniques and make your own mind up.

I may have people wrong, but sometimes it seems, some people dismiss his methods, without reading or understanding the book.

I have read the 1st edition and refer to it every now and again. However, it is a shody electronic pdf version. I'm sure many on here have seen the one I mean.

I want the book itself so that I can sit down in my fireside armchair, pipe in hand, to ponder technique.

Personally I found his info quite helpful. Still, I will be shocked if his squat looks crap when I take a look at the above video tonight.

DM-BM

Hanley wrote: »

The big breath at the top. He should be breathing into his belly. Look at what happens after he does it, his chest drops.

The fact he drops into the hole and is soft as sh!t. Which is directly related to the point above and the fact he never tightens up before descending.

He’s looking down and falling forward. Fancy that.

Why’s he snapping the bar at the top? We get it, you’re “explosive”. How about some explosiveness out of the hole.

And that’s without mentioning the fact it’s 140kg x10 off someone who’s been training for what, 30-35 years?

There may be some armchair experts here, but it beats being an armchair fan boy.

I not a fanboy, i just think that if we are going to discuss form, then lets do so, but a lot of the comments so far don't discuss anything, they just say he's sh!t and even transform mentioned he's chubby- what has that got to do with teaching the squat?

If you think the form is bad, fine but at least explain why, i know you have just done so, but most posters didn't.

Now i am not claiming these squats to be perfect, and for what it's worth neither does he.He doesn't adhere to his own advice in this set, but is that enough evedince to dismiss his teachings?

Roper

g'em wrote: »

How many of them are expert coaches though?

Plenty. There's many, many more people who were average athletes and great coaches. Cus D'Amato is the boxing coach who springs to mind first.

Jimmy Bottlehead

DM-BM wrote: »

It depends on what you believe a good squat looks like, as for his knees, they go less forward than some videos on this board.

True, but people on this board (well most ) don't put themselves forward as an expert coach.

DM-BM

Hanley wrote: »

Because he wants his lifters to fall forward like he does?

How much do you squat? Have you tried his techniques with heavy weights? Do you realise how ridiculous they are if you're squatting 1.5 - 2x bodyweight?

So far the most i've squated is 132.5kg x 5 , 132.5kg x3, 132.5kgx 2 @88kg done attempting to employ his techniques.The problem i have Hanley, is having read SS and constantly dipping back into it to try to improve from when it slips, it has become the only way i know.

When i see people here or on other forums giving out advice, well it's never going to be as comprehensive as the squat chapter in SS, so i find it hard to try other ways as i don't have as much of a reference to go off as i do with SS.

When you say "falling forward" are you referring to back angle or knees going forward?
He does advocate leaning forward to get the bar over the middle of the foot.

g'em

Roper wrote: »

Plenty. There's many, many more people who were average athletes and great coaches.

Ah, this I agree with, but initially you said:

Roper wrote: »

I can list off athletics, boxing, gymnastics and lots of other coaches who have never performed the sport.

I'd find it hard to believe that someone who has never competed/ performed at high level (even badly!) would have the knowledge and experience to be a brilliant coach.

DM-BM

g'em wrote: »

Ah, this I agree with, but initially you said:


I'd find it hard to believe that someone who has never competed/ performed at high level (even badly!) would have the knowledge and experience to be a brilliant coach.

He was a competative powerlifter, before he became a coach, i don't think he was very sucessful, max deadlift was 611lbs. I think he was also a US team oly lifting coach.

MS2008

g'em wrote: »

How many of them are expert coaches though?

As an athlete I'll have more respect for someone who can walk the walk as well as talk the talk - someone who knows the highs and lows and the practical aspects of my sport. the point here is that for someone who touts themself as such an expert in a given field and purports that their training method is one of, if not THE, best going... Rip's squatting is sh!t.

I wouldn't buy into that at all.. Many of the best coaches weren't experts themselves. As long as the coach has good ideas and can improve the athlete then who cares how good they are or were!

celestial

Can't wait til Colm O Reilly gets here

d-gal

g'em wrote: »

I'd find it hard to believe that someone who has never competed/ performed at high level (even badly!) would have the knowledge and experience to be a brilliant coach.

I would agree in some sense but it depends on what type of coach. Look at Steve Black, probably one of the greatest coaches in the world. The man looks like he has never lifted a weight in his life. He never played a decent level of soccer or rugby yet he has been one of the key reasons that Jonny Wilkinson has been one of the greatest athletes in his sport

Hanley

Jimmy Bottlehead wrote: »

True, but people on this board (well most ) don't put themselves forward as an expert coach.

Who's to say knees going forward is bad? Look at olympic weightlifters.

DM-BM wrote: »

So far the most i've squated is 132.5kg x 5 , 132.5kg x3, 132.5kgx 2 @88kg done attempting to employ his techniques.The problem i have Hanley, is having read SS and constantly dipping back into it to try to improve from when it slips, it has become the only way i know.

When i see people here or on other forums giving out advice, well it's never going to be as comprehensive as the squat chapter in SS, so i find it hard to try other ways as i don't have as much of a reference to go off as i do with SS.

When you say "falling forward" are you referring to back angle or knees going forward?
He does advocate leaning forward to get the bar over the middle of the foot.

By falling forward I mean look at the way his chest drops and the weight is shifted forward. That is not a good thing when you're trying to squat big weight.

DM-BM wrote: »

He was a competative powerlifter, before he became a coach, i don't think he was very sucessful, max deadlift was 611lbs. I think he was also a US team oly lifting coach.

A big deadlfit does not a good powerlifter make! What were his other lifts like?

MS2008 wrote: »

I wouldn't buy into that at all.. Many of the best coaches weren't experts themselves. As long as the coach has good ideas and can improve the athlete then who cares how good they are or were!

You'd expect basic proficiency tho. It's not a complicated movement pattern, and considering how long he's training you'd think he'd have it down by now. The weight isn't even an excuse because it's not all that high.

No?

BTW I'm still in work, so my replies are short out of neccessity, not rudenss!

Jimmy Bottlehead

Hanley wrote: »

Who's to say knees going forward is bad? Look at olympic weightlifters.

I was under the impression that your knees shouldn't extend beyond your toes?

Having watched your squats you seem to conform to this too, no?

Hanley

Jimmy Bottlehead wrote: »

I was under the impression that your knees shouldn't extend beyond your toes?

Having watched your squats you seem to conform to this too, no?

Well.... yes and no to the first part.

If you're getting below parallel with a close stance, your knees HAVE to go over your toes or you'll fall arse over tit. With a wide stance, because you're sitting back more and leaning forward your knees don't have to go as far.

Keeping your knees behind your toes is something that is worth bearing in mind for guys that squat high. You see it all time in gyms, they break at the knees, let them drift forwards, their heels almost lift, and they don't get within 6 inches of parallel. THAT's when you start to fcuk up your kness.

When I bury squats close stance my knees go forward, when I sit back and go below parallel, they tend to stay over my toes.

See these two vids for comparison;

170kg x5

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4mETY099ks

200kg x5

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuQPi1g-z-g

DM-BM

Hanley wrote: »

Who's to say knees going forward is bad? Look at olympic weightlifters.

Well he does, because he believes it removes the hamstrings out if the movement, and that your squat will be stronger with them in it.
Weightlifters doing high bar squats i don't think is a good comparison.It's a fairly different movement, don't you think?

Hanley wrote: »

By falling forward I mean look at the way his chest drops and the weight is shifted forward. That is not a good thing when you're trying to squat big weight. .

Fair enough, but he makes a point of keeping your chest up in SS.
Do you object to these squats or his theory on squats, because they are not exactly the same?

Hanley wrote: »

A big deadlfit does not a good powerlifter make! What were his other lifts like?.

I know, i didn't say he was, that comment was in response to g'em saying she thinks coaches need to have competed at a hihgh level, to be any good.
I don't know what his other lifts were like to be honest.

Hanley wrote: »

You'd expect basic proficiency tho. It's not a complicated movement pattern, and considering how long he's training you'd think he'd have it down by now. The weight isn't even an excuse because it's not all that high.

his ability to teach the movement isn't dictated by his ability to perform the movement, and they were never put up as an example of how it should be done.

Mikel

re squat technique, is it more correct to have your head up or down?
Why are the posters here convinced you should look up?

I'm not saying you're wrong, but presumably 'correct' form is based on sound biomechanical principles, I'd like to know what they are.
There are probably lots of videos around with top lifters doing things that are idiosyncratic and they can get away with them, so if it's just a case of 'that's what people do' then I wouldn't find that convincing.

Does the same apply to the deadlift?, should the head be up or down?
If it's down why the difference?

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance_repair/5_common_technique_mistakes
Here Cressey mentions cervical hyperextension in the deadlift, maybe thats where Rippetoe is coming from?

It does look very flaccid at the bottom doesn't it?
seems to have a significant 'butt wink' too

Hanley

DM-BM wrote: »

Well he does, because he believes it removes the hamstrings out if the movement, and that your squat will be stronger with them in it.

I must be an oddity then because my hamstrings are always in bits where they tie into my glutes after close stance oly style squats!!

If you're going deep with a close stance, you knees HAVE to go forward of your toes. There's simply no two ways about it.

Weightlifters doing high bar squats i don't think is a good comparison.It's a fairly different movement, don't you think?

Not really tbh. Pound for pound, elite weightlifters have some of the best squats on the planet.

Fair enough, but he makes a point of keeping your chest up in SS.
Do you object to these squats or his theory on squats, because they are not exactly the same?

I think his form in the vid is sh1t. I'll admit that.

I think looking down, as he says in SS, is dumb.

I think lifting your elbows to keep the bar in place is crazy bad.

He has some nice theories and coaching tips, but I think some of the things he suggests are a terrible idea when trying to squat big weights.

I know, i didn't say he was, that comment was in response to g'em saying she thinks coaches need to have competed at a hihgh level, to be any good.
I don't know what his other lifts were like to be honest.

But the implication of your post was that he competed at a high level no??

He may have had a great deadlift, but without knowing his squat and bench (and bodyweight at the time) we don't know how competitive he was.

his ability to teach the movement isn't dictated by his ability to perform the movement, and they were never put up as an example of how it should be done.

I know, but you would expect a level of basic competency surely??

LightningBolt

g'em wrote: »

I'd find it hard to believe that someone who has never competed/ performed at high level (even badly!) would have the knowledge and experience to be a brilliant coach.

Ah come on now there's definitely people who've coached at a high level without actually playing at a high level.

Jose Mourinho Soccer
Arsene Wenger Soccer
Scotty Bowman NHL (9 Stanley Cups I think)
There's a whole raft of coaches in the NFL who've never played nfl but they're exceptionally good at what they do.

Transform

Ok guys and girls lets close the discussion on being great and coaching and just say each to their own and have a look at the squat for what it is.

His squat IMO is nice and deep but the head thing i do not get.

No i have not read starting strength and never will really as its just a rehash or everything stuart mcrobert (20plus pages in his technique book on squats alone - and needs updating) and all the old writers for Hardgainer and ironmind have said donkey's years ago.

I for one do claim to be an expert and my opinion as a coach is his head should be up and the squat is ONE exercise not a complete program.

Finally i would prefer if people on boards would STOP recommending starting strength and simply put up a sticky on what a general beginners weights program should look like - why direct people else where when the info is right here - can be called

The Apprentice weights program to looking amazing!!!

Edwardius

DM-BM wrote: »

He was a competative powerlifter, before he became a coach, i don't think he was very sucessful, max deadlift was 611lbs. I think he was also a US team oly lifting coach.

Aye, think he pulled 622 and squatted 611 with a belt (and possibly wraps. Dunno about a suit). It's on his forum somewhere. He does have hernias and all sorts of injuries all over the shop so that could be part of it.

I think the "falling forward" thing is the "hip drive" he talks about.

Fair fecks to him either way for not being permanently on the couch/in the pub at that age..

DM-BM

Transform wrote: »

His squat IMO is nice and deep but the head thing i do not get.

No i have not read starting strength and never will really as its just a rehash or everything stuart mcrobert (20plus pages in his technique book on squats alone - and needs updating) and all the old writers for Hardgainer and ironmind have said donkey's years ago.

You should read it, if you did then you would see that it is not the same as Mcroberts take on technique, or on training.Look at Brawn alone, there is so many variations of programes its hard to know where to start. I own three books by Stuart McRobert and SS made alot more sense to me.Look, why is SS so popular, Rip didn't invent 3x5, or the basic lifts that SS is comprised of, the only thing unique about it is his analysis of both the squat and the deadlift, as is evident from this very thread.

Transform wrote: »

I for one do claim to be an expert and my opinion as a coach is his head should be up and the squat is ONE exercise not a complete program.

Do you not think that is more than a little arrogant, to consider yourself an expert at 32?

Transform wrote: »

Finally i would prefer if people on boards would STOP recommending starting strength and simply put up a sticky on what a general beginners weights program should look like - why direct people else where when the info is right here - can be called

The Apprentice weights program to looking amazing!!!

Why, when it works. What if you want to get strong, and you don't care about looking amazing, it's not about abs for everyone.

Mikel

Transform wrote: »

I for one do claim to be an expert and my opinion as a coach is his head should be up.............

Why?
Why does he say different?

Transform

If SS works for you and your getting stronger then great - keep it up.

I have worked face to face, toe to toe with clients for over 10years now so yes i do claim to be an expert, a coach, a trainer whatever. Yes i am still learning but have put in the hours and degree to make my claim.

I am not saying it does not work - it sounds farrr better than the usual junk that people do so great but its still nothing new and i see no reason to direct readers elsewhere when there is lots of adequate info here. The whole basis of what i was suggesting is to put up a guide for a beginner who want to get stong and lean,do not tell me most do not want to be lean also as 99% of the people i deal with state this as a primary aim.

Jimmy Bottlehead

DM-BM wrote: »

Why, when it works. What if you want to get strong, and you don't care about looking amazing, it's not about abs for everyone.

P!ss all people care about being strong, they just want to look good. Same with me. I enjoy the Sense of accomplishment I get from lifting heavier all the time, but I do it to look better, not for the sake of strength.

Same with 99% of people, as Transform correctly said.

corribdude

DM-BM wrote: »

Do you not think that is more than a little arrogant, to consider yourself an expert at 32?

Tons of people are experts at different things at even younger ages. Tiger Woods, Michael Phelps, virtuoso musicians, chess grandmasters, etc...it is not arrogant at all to consider yourself an expert at something if you actually are, no matter what your age.

kevpants

+1 for a "How to Squat" stickie.

I think SS is great because it gets people performing the core lifts (somewhat) correctly and seems to have brought that to the masses. Nothing is perfect, and neither is SS.

It's a good basis to start but as you progress I feel people following it will begin to question it. I used to encorporate his hip drive into my squat. I think it did me the world of good in getting started simply because it made me think about the movement and what muscles I was activating but now I know it's just not feasible to bring your hips up faster than the bar with really big weight. I lost one too many squats falling forward because of it.

I have to say Rip you squats suck and your theories are wrong.

But you book isn't a bad start in the evolution of a squatter.

token

Rip talking about the video in question
http://www.strengthmill.net/forum/showpost.php?p=12355&postcount=15

Rip giving his powerlifting totals
http://www.strengthmill.net/forum/showpost.php?p=14956&postcount=7

There seems to be alot of hostility on this board to certain disciplines such as SS and say crossfit. Even if you personally don't subscribe to them they are still better than 95% of the ****e a regular gym goer does. Yes we get the fact that a competive powerlifter will not benefit from them but no need to rubbish every routine that won't get you a 600lb suited bench press.

Roper

g'em wrote: »

Ah, this I agree with, but initially you said:


I'd find it hard to believe that someone who has never competed/ performed at high level (even badly!) would have the knowledge and experience to be a brilliant coach.

My mistake, I wasn't clear. I was putting Cus D'Amato forward as someone who had never performed in the sport at all.

There are gazillions of watchers, people who excel at coaching and have the gift of being able to impart messages to others, without being able to actually perform what they're getting at.

Think of the top 4 premiership managers of the last 10 years. Mourinho, Ferguson, Wenger, Benitez. All with average or non-existent pro careers. It's even more common in boxing where it's actually almost a detriment to be a former champ it seems.

Roper

corribdude wrote: »

Tons of people are experts at different things at even younger ages. Tiger Woods, Michael Phelps, virtuoso musicians, chess grandmasters, etc...it is not arrogant at all to consider yourself an expert at something if you actually are, no matter what your age.

STOP! Athletes are no experts. I bet Michael Phelps could tell you lots about how HE swims but not too much about how to make you doggy paddle. Tiger Woods is a smart guy but probably wouldn't be able to teach you how to play golf, or even know how he does most of the things he does. That's what I'm getting at.

@ Transform,
I have to say that when I read the "head down" style in SS I was a bit surprised. In fairness though, he doesn't say head down he says keep your spine straight and that looking at the ceiling complicates the movement and adds pressure to the cervical spine. He's not alone in that advice. Surely for any decent critique though, you must read the book. In the intro he actually says something along the lines of "there's nothing new in this book". It's a simplified lifting programme for beginners. To blanket say that you will never read something because you assume it won't tell you anything is a bit crass. I've seen a lot in 8 years coaching, like yourself, and I'm never going to pick up a book and have it rock my world ever again. But one nugget of info in 400 pages is worth it for me these days.

For me, starting strength and the associated programmes that get posted are far from optimal for beginners or otherwise. But they are simple and easy to follow, and they introduce all of the major lifts. What I don't like is the dogmatic approach of some "followers". Rip says 3 days, Rip reccomends 3 gallons of milk and so on. I don't think it's a great template but it is a good, simple, easy to follow book that sets people on the right path without overloading them.

Mikel

kevpants wrote: »

It's a good basis to start but as you progress I feel people following it will begin to question it. I used to encorporate his hip drive into my squat. I think it did me the world of good in getting started simply because it made me think about the movement and what muscles I was activating but now I know it's just not feasible to bring your hips up faster than the bar with really big weight. I lost one too many squats falling forward because of it

I am driving my hips up in what I consider to be the correct use of the posterior chain.

So who is right?
I have read a few of his posts in the past where he critiques squat form, and his big hobby horse seems to be 'leg pressing with a barbell', so he seems to emphasise hip drive a lot.
Is he over compensating in order to ensure the activation of the posterior chain?

How can something so fundamental as a squat be the cause of disagreement over form?