[US/IRL] 5X06 - "316" [ SPOILERS WITHIN ]

cooker3 · 20-02-2009 01:41AM

On the plane crash. Remember in an earlier episode the island folk found some Ajira airlines stuff in the future. My guess is the plane crashed on the island and they are now on the island in 2007. They didn't move in time when the purple sky appeared as only certain people get affected by that and now Jack and co are in the late 1970's stuck in time.
They will need to use the orchid to get back to the present which should take us near the end of the season.

Mr.Nice Guy · 20-02-2009 01:47AM

I really enjoyed it. I gave it a 9. I like that they're returning to the tension between Jack and Locke's differing beliefs as I've always felt that was a really interesting part of the show and hoped it would be touched on again in future.

I'm guessing Ben went after Penelope as he told Jack in the church he had a promise to keep he made to an old friend which I'm guessing is a reference to his conversation with Widmore. Also he was reading Ulysses which as someone pointed out has a chapter called 'Penelope' so I'm guessing that's a clue. Would he kill or hurt her though? He hasn't come across like a guy that gets his hands dirty.

Sad Professor · 20-02-2009 01:47AM

The Don wrote: »

Did anyone else not notice that Desmond said that Hawking told him that he was supposed to go to the island and that it was his purpose? Then she said that the island wasn't finished with him yet. I think that this is the first time we've heard this. All along we were led to believe that Desmond was shipwrecked while trying to win the navigational race.

He was referring to his previous encounter with Miss Hawking in 3x08. Desmond's consciousness travelled back to 1996 and he initially tried to change the course of events that led him to the island. However, Miss Hawking insisted that he had to go and that it was his destiny.

ITT-Pat wrote:

one thing that annoyed me, and i'm not normally annoyed by plot-holes, was that as part of her agreement mith the DA or w/e Kate isn't allowed leave California she got through the airport handy enough

Good catch. Although I think that's what the dark sunglasses and keeping her distance from Jack was all about. And it's not like Kate has never faked an ID.

Mellor · 20-02-2009 02:57AM

Or that Ben hadn't already hooked up a fake passport

AlmightyCushion · 20-02-2009 04:33AM

Ok. You work on a plane and you see the oceanic 6 boarding. For all that you know, the last time these guys where on a plane together it crashed and everybody but them died. I'd be off that plane in a fúckin' heart beat.

One thing I don't get. When they were in the plane we seen the flash and heard the noise that happens whenever the island moves in time. This means that the island was either in their time and was moving to a different time or was in a different time and moving into their time. If this is the case then surely the guys on the island would have moved as well so they'd only be in the current time jump for a short time. How did Jin go from arriving in this time and working for dharma in the space of a few hours (I assume the jack et all were only out cold for a few hours).

Requiem4adream · 20-02-2009 09:26AM

Not sure if many of you here will have seen Life On Mars (UK version obv) but i think Lost could have learned an awful lot from that show. The writing and direction was so good and the very tone of the show meant you didn't worry about (and quickly forgave) any inconsistencies, anachronisms, plot holes (which were few and far between). Lost is, in effect, the opposite and mainly in terms of tone; far more serious - to the point where said inconsistencies/plot holes etc are going to be ripped to pieces.

We'll never be able to prove beyond reasonable doubt what the initial premise for the shows story arc was; and whether it bears any resemblance to what we have witnessed. It's starting to feel like a web of lies, which are starting to unravel somewhat.

The classic *you were out drinking with the lads* and told the girlfriend a) you were playing football, told the mother b) you were at the cinema, told the friends not invited that c) you were having an early one. The next day you accidentally tell the friends that you were doing a) and when challenged you might go for the "ah i changed my mind and went for b). Confused? Spinning lies can get confusing if you cant remember which one you're telling. Throw in an alphabet of letters and we see Carlton and Damon in a difficult spot!

I love the show; but as i've said after having watched the entire (superb) Life on Mars series on boxset, it highlights even more the mistakes Lost has been making and how poorly executed the plot is at times in comparison. Nevertheless it's to everyones involved credit that it remains immensely entertaining.

As for the episode - i thought for a lot of it that the suicide letter would reference Christian, i.e. a reason for Jack to go back should he be reluctant. It was a tad disappointing considering the build-up it got (introducing it early and leaving it unopened the whole ep). Desmond & Penny have always been 1 of my favourite couples on screen, although probably more so when they were apart, searching for each other. Some of the edge is somewhat lost this season in that respect. Fionnula Flanagans accent was a bit hit n miss.

Broader point - i'm really bad at spatial awareness and stuff like that and try not to think too deeply into the science of the show. BUT - if the island is always moving, in space and in time, how does that correlate with (for example) Michael and Walt leaving the island in season 2? Or anyone for that matter. Bearing 325?? Hmmm. I mean what's to say that the island hadn't moved in space or time (rendering that bearing useless), or more to the point how does Ben know it has/hasn't? Basically is it a contrivance? The whole thing?

J-blk · 20-02-2009 09:44AM

There are too many things that'll never be explained and I'm pretty sure the writers are making things up left, right and center. Yes, I'll watch till the end at this point but that doesn't mean that I'll blindly accept every episode as brilliant. The show has gone in a completely different direction from the original flashback/they're all connected format, without ever explaining any of that and I'm sure it'll do another 180 for the last season too...

As for Aaron, without going into technically when life starts, etc - during the original crash, he wasn't alive (well, not born) so in recreating the circumstances, he probably is dead. I also thought that Kate could now be pregnant from the one-night stand with Jack, "standing in" for Claire... But as others have said, what rational explanation could there ever be for having to recreate the original circumstances as closely as possible?

theram · 20-02-2009 10:08AM

Carroller16 wrote: »

thought the episode was gonna be called ''the life and death of Jeremy Bentham''

No, thats next weeks I think.

Good episode, I was very happy with it. I presume we'll find out what happened with all the other of the 6 to get them on that plane. I feel Kate was severely coerced into coming back by someone, and she's definitely pissed off with Jack over something too.

Good to have them back on the island, the story can move on a bit now. So far this series the parts off island have been the ones that have lagged the most for me.

A strong 7, possibly an 8.

Requiem4adream · 20-02-2009 10:43AM

Also certain scenes made zero narrative sense told from this perspective. Kate on the bed after been crying, then pounces on Jack? Zero sense as told. Awaiting flashback.

Jack not opening the letter, or not wanting to, made very little sense.

John's expression in the coffin definitely changes btw. He's half smiling in 1 shot.

In totality, the writers still havent given us convincing reasons for any of the Oceanic 6 wanting to go back. Beyond 'trying to help their friends'.

Chumpski · 20-02-2009 11:00AM

Okay episode. I loved the opening. For a second i thought we were looking at the first episode from a different angle or something. I thought they might have brought in Christian like in the mobisode before season 4.

I like the Jack and Locke conflict so i was happy with most of Jacks story here. Its great to see Jack turning more and more to Lockes views about destiny etc. as someone on here said already. I like Jack but he really annoyed me with that letter, Read the damn thing you clown!

I wondered about what happened to Ben. I think its likely its something to do with Des and Penny. Hopefully he didn't kill her although i can't see any other way of Des being forced to come back to the island. Hes not going to go back for any reason as things stand so the writers will probably have to either plant Penny or Charlie (Desmonds' son) on the island or kill them off.

I'm really glad to see all the characters back in the DI time. Its a great way to explain what the island is about. If Locke gets resurected he better hide from Jin! Hes going to go nuts when he sees Sun back!

Some things to think about:

Will Christian be in ghost form or whatever on the island in the 1970s era? Maybe his work is done and thats the last we will see of him? Apparently Emile De Ravin is coming back into the show properly in season 6 so maybe its not the last we have seen of him....

This throws up some interesting questions about Jacob. Its possible Jacob might be one of the main characters, maybe Locke? Gives an explanation why we haven't seem him so far.

As someone said earlier i would have expected to see Walt on the plane as well!

randomchild · 20-02-2009 11:03AM

Requiem4adream wrote: »

In totality, the writers still havent given us convincing reasons for any of the Oceanic 6 wanting to go back. Beyond 'trying to help their friends'.

That is definitely in character for Jack and Hurley and Sun wants to see Jin. That nearly half of them right there before we even get into the flashbacks for the other 4.

seanironmaiden · 20-02-2009 11:49AM

Good episode.. Some good questions and answers in it. Flippin help tho, it was bloody typical that my anti-lost girlfriend would pick this of all episodes to watch with me. It didn't exactly help my "it's not crazy at all.. Everything that happenes is really well thought out and written ..." argument. Couldn't have been a more loopy episode.

I'm thinkin too that ben's beatin was des/ penny related. Especially as he made the call to jack from the dock by some boats. Lapidus did look pretty funny without the beard. Hopefully he didn't pack his razors forthe flight...

Requiem4adream · 20-02-2009 11:54AM

randomchild wrote: »

That is definitely in character for Jack and Hurley and Sun wants to see Jin. That nearly half of them right there before we even get into the flashbacks for the other 4.

Yes..BUT... in the original flashforward Jack was troubled to the point of demented to want to go back to the island. If it's pure guilt over leaving them behind, ok, but at the time i had hoped there would be a more compelling reason i.e. something special about the island for them to want to go back to stay there. The whole "we were never meant to leave" i had hoped would be more mythical/inspirational than just wanting to go back to rescue his friends.

Hyzepher · 20-02-2009 11:57AM

For me there were a couple of key moments.

I thought it was obvious that Sayid was surprised to see the others board the plane meaning he was unaware that he was returning to the island.

Hurley wasn't persauded by Ben to return due to his reaction to seeing Ben, yet he somehow knew what was going to happen otherwise it wouldn't have bought up all the seats.

From my understanding of Jack's dad's shoes, Jack was given the shoes by his mother so that his dad would have a good set for the funeral. i got the impression that Jack brought them to Australia with him - so how did the grandad get them?

The biggst revealation I took from the show is that the original 816 flight was also staged and that there were people on that flight that "time" travelled at the point of the crash - just like the O6 did on 316 - people who were also getting back to the island. Christian Sheppard being one of them.

Bacchus · 20-02-2009 12:30PM

Hyzepher wrote: »

From my understanding of Jack's dad's shoes, Jack was given the shoes by his mother so that his dad would have a good set for the funeral. i got the impression that Jack brought them to Australia with him - so how did the grandad get them?

I don't think so. When Jack went to Oz, his father was still alive but went missing. He didn't bring those shoes with him. He had no shoes, which is why he put tennis shoes on his Dad instead of going out and buying new ones.

Anyway. Good, not great episode. As has been said, it was a "loopy" episode. The lamppost was cool and the dialog was top notch. I've no problem with the O6 appearing on the plane either. I'm sure that will be explained later in flashbacks.

What I didn't like was the way they got back to the island. I've always enjoyed that whatever craziness happens in LOST, it's always covered by pseudo-science. Only Jacob/Christian and the giant wheel has crossed into the paranormal/magical (whatever you want to call it). This episode explained that to get back to the island, as many of the O6 were needed to be on the plane. WHY? What difference does it make? Is Hurley's weight really that critical to crashing the plane. There is no pseudo-science explanation for why those 6 people being on the plane would cause it to crash.
Also, it didn't even crash (that we know so far). There was a bright flash and they appear on the island. WTF? There's some serious explaining to do there. I really hope whatever the reason, it remains in the pseudo-science category as opposed to the magical. Otherwise the writers can do WHATEVER they what and say Pixies did it.

Requiem4adream · 20-02-2009 12:51PM

Hyzepher wrote: »

The biggst revealation I took from the show is that the original 816 flight was also staged and that there were people on that flight that "time" travelled at the point of the crash - just like the O6 did on 316 - people who were also getting back to the island. Christian Sheppard being one of them.

Just on that last point - i'm not so sure. It could be an arbitrary plot device but in the Pilot episode there was no bright flash before the crash. Also i'm unaware of anything to suggest they travelled back in time at the point of the crash. If this is the writers method of explaining it....well it's all a bit hollow. although at this point, they're on a slippery slope. Having always insisted on a scientific/rational explanation, even allowing for the magical/surreal/mythical, i dont think they will satisfy many with either at this point. Anyway, we've all invested too much in the show at this point to turn back!

Sad Professor · 20-02-2009 01:13PM

We never really saw the full plane crash in the Pilot though. It seems most of the survivors of the fuselage (with the exception of Kate) were unconscious during the crash. So maybe there was a flash. I don't think they travelled back in the time in the pilot but a flash could explain how so many of them survived without major injuries. And it ties in with the repeated close-up of eye's opening and people waking up in the jungle/wherever. They might be related somehow. I think there's a lot of interesting possibilities raised by this.

Or else maybe Flight 316 just happened to be flying over when a flash happened.

I think the bigger question is did 316 actually crash? Or was the O6 just "flashed" to the island and the plane continued on it's course. It was Desmond's failure to press the button that caused 815 to crash.

Of course, the practical explanation for the flash in this episode is that they don't have the budget to do a plane crash sequence.

steve 0 · 20-02-2009 01:18PM

oleras wrote: »

Also, i was convinced that by jack ignoring the letter that when he eventually opend it it would have said " jack, i was wrong, dont trust ben, never step foot on that island ever again"........i was kinda wrong about that one....lol

That would have been hilarious.

I loved this episode, everything seems to be happening so fast this season. I thought it was going to be a "Go" style episode - having a different story of how each of Hugo/Kate/Sayid/Ben ended up on the plane after Jacks version, then I realised there was about 10 minutes left and it wasn't going to happen. I'm sure they'll get round to it in a later episode.

leggo · 20-02-2009 02:33PM

The next episode is presumably about Locke's return to the island and his consequent death. Thus, I can only guess that it'll be about him visiting the O6 and will fill in the gaps about what caused them to return to the island.

This fits in with what Damon & Carlton said about this and that episode being switched around: you either explain what got them on the plane first or explain their actual journey. The way they explained the journey first left a lot of questions to be asked and made the answers in the next episode more relevant. Whereas if they'd have done it the other way around, then THIS episode wouldn't have stood out as much.

I think the flash was easily explained too. My take on it is that when Locke put the wheel back in motion, Sawyer, Jin etc were left in the time that they had previously been in. Thus they survived the killer nosebleeds. Thus, they needed to ingratiate themselves within the current society in that time, i.e. the Dharma Initiative, for survival purposes.

Therefore, when the plane flew through this 'window', it was the O6 who were thrown into another time. The islanders didn't need to go through another flash...the flashes on the island have (in my opinion) ceased after Locke's departure. The rest of the series will take place within this time period, as the writer's feel that this is the period where the questions will be most suitably answered.

I still have FULL faith in the writers to give sufficient answers. Yes, there are going to be MANY questions left by the end of it all...but they want that. Part of the fun with Lost is the speculation and theorising that goes on on message boards like this. They'll give sufficient answers that we're kept happy (though NO one explanation will keep everyone happy...that's for sure...) then leave us with enough questions that we'll spend months, if not YEARS, on this message board trying to figure out the whole thing.

Episodes like this are frustrating at the best of times. But how many times have we doubted the writers before...only to be hooked back in with one major revelation? Trust me, NONE of the posters in this topic would still be here if that wasn't the case.

Just relax and enjoy the ride. Judge them when they're done. If they told you everything you needed to know now, then we wouldn't have anything to talk about here for the next 18 months.

stevejazzx · 20-02-2009 03:07PM

Sad Professor wrote: »

Or else maybe Flight 316 just happened to be flying over when a flash happened.

Yeah that's it I think, Hawking lined them up so they'd be over the island gateway at a point coinciding with the flashes (they (the losteis) are grouped together) - but what's confusing me is that Locke put the wheel back on it's axis? So now I'm wondering if they are stuck at the last place they jumped? hence Jin coming out at the end...

You know the way Ben (possibly wasn't involved originally) and Hawking go about getting them onto the island isn't too different at all from the pilot except first time around they didn't know about it, so the idea that they were born on the island seems good, I always wondered why events contrived so heavliy to group these people together and get them onto ocenaic 316 originally? Now we have the answer; they all need to be together so Hawking can solve the time anomaly they created by leaving the island?

Sad Professor · 20-02-2009 03:31PM

Mr.S wrote: »

How is Locke dead in the real world, but alive on the Island?

Here's the chronology:

- The O6 leave and Ben moves the island in Dec 2004.
- The island starts skipping; then Locke turns the wheel again.
- Locke ends up in the real world in early 2007; he meets the O6, then dies.
- The O6 return with Locke's body.

PirateShampoo · 20-02-2009 03:32PM

I think Ben went after Penny but got stopped by Syied, got beaten to a pulp and tossed into the water and left for dead. Syied then gets arrested and getting deported. Hences his shock when he see's ben boarding the plane

:cool:

PirateShampoo · 20-02-2009 03:34PM

stevejazzx wrote: »

Yeah that's it I think, Hawking lined them up so they'd be over the island gateway at a point coinciding with the flashes (they (the losteis) are grouped together) - but what's confusing me is that Locke put the wheel back on it's axis? So now I'm wondering if they are stuck at the last place they jumped? hence Jin coming out at the end...

You know the way Ben (possibly wasn't involved originally) and Hawking go about getting them onto the island isn't too different at all from the pilot except first time around they didn't know about it, so the idea that they were born on the island seems good, I always wondered why events contrived so heavliy to group these people together and get them onto ocenaic 316 originally? Now we have the answer; they all need to be together so Hawking can solve the time anomaly they created by leaving the island?

I thought that at first also, but....

Jin is already driving around in a Dharma suit when he finds Jack and co giving the impression he has been in that time line for awhile.

Faith · 20-02-2009 04:41PM

PirateShampoo wrote: »

I thought that at first also, but....

Jin is already driving around in a Dharma suit when he finds Jack and co giving the impression he has been in that time line for awhile.

The O6 leave the Island in 2004 when Ben turns the wheel. They arrive back into the real world late 2004 and continue to live their lives as normal until 2007.

Meanwhile, on the Island, the flashes start just after Ben turns the wheel, and last a few days until Locke turns the wheel again. So it was still 2004 (technically early 2005) on the Island when Locke turned the wheel, stopping the flashes and trapping them in the 70's. By the time the O6 arrive back, the on-island group have been living in the 70's for a few years.

cooker3 · 20-02-2009 04:45PM

Requiem4adream wrote: »

Also certain scenes made zero narrative sense told from this perspective. Kate on the bed after been crying, then pounces on Jack? Zero sense as told. Awaiting flashback.

Jack not opening the letter, or not wanting to, made very little sense.

John's expression in the coffin definitely changes btw. He's half smiling in 1 shot.

In totality, the writers still havent given us convincing reasons for any of the Oceanic 6 wanting to go back. Beyond 'trying to help their friends'.

How about knowing his half sister is on the island?

As an aside I happened to already know the title of the next episode but think people should spoiler it as it gives away what's it about. If I didn't know it I'd be a little annoyed to read it in here.

PirateShampoo · 20-02-2009 04:46PM

Faith wrote: »

The O6 leave the Island in 2004 when Ben turns the wheel. They arrive back into the real world late 2004 and continue to live their lives as normal until 2007.

Meanwhile, on the Island, the flashes start just after Ben turns the wheel, and last a few days until Locke turns the wheel again. So it was still 2004 (technically early 2005) on the Island when Locke turned the wheel, stopping the flashes and trapping them in the 70's. By the time the O6 arrive back, the on-island group have been living in the 70's for a few years.

So its exactly what i said but with more detail.

Some people had got the impression that Lock turning the wheel was Flash that caused the crash.

Mellor · 20-02-2009 04:50PM

Faith wrote: »

The O6 leave the Island in 2004 when Ben turns the wheel. They arrive back into the real world late 2004 and continue to live their lives as normal until 2007.

Meanwhile, on the Island, the flashes start just after Ben turns the wheel, and last a few days until Locke turns the wheel again. So it was still 2004 (technically early 2005) on the Island when Locke turned the wheel, stopping the flashes and trapping them in the 70's. By the time the O6 arrive back, the on-island group have been living in the 70's for a few years.

I think this is the most likely, but we have no proof that the on/off island time runs concurrently

PirateShampoo · 20-02-2009 05:05PM

Mellor wrote: »

I think this is the most likely, but we have no proof that the on/off island time runs concurrently

I think time does run coherently on the Island with the rest of the world, but has we are watching it from Sawyer and co perspective we don't see that.

Mr.Nice Guy · 20-02-2009 05:21PM

oleras wrote:

Also, i was convinced that by jack ignoring the letter that when he eventually opend it it would have said " jack, i was wrong, dont trust ben, never step foot on that island ever again"........i was kinda wrong about that one....lol

I actually thought along similar lines, particularly when Jack asked Ben if he knew Locke killed himself and Ben said no. It made me think back to Eloise's earlier comment when Jack asked if Ben was telling the truth about not knowing about the Lamppost and she replied 'Probably not'.

PirateShampoo · 20-02-2009 05:32PM

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I actually thought along similar lines, particularly when Jack asked Ben if he knew Locke killed himself and Ben said no. It made me think back to Eloise's earlier comment when Jack asked if Ben was telling the truth about not knowing about the Lamppost and she replied 'Probably not'.

I thought she was pretty dismissive of Ben, like a teacher to a small miss behaving child.

[US/IRL] 5X06 - "316" [** SPOILERS WITHIN **]

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[US/IRL] 5X06 - "316" [ SPOILERS WITHIN ]