Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread

PiE · 17-02-2009 11:20AM

Boggles wrote: »

They have all one thing in common, all signed by Rafa. Yet you attach no blame to the Spanish one, How Come?

Because he has also signed Alonso, Reina, Mascherano, Agger, Skrtel, Babel, Riera & Torres and made a profit on many of the players who didn't make it, rebuilt the youth and coaching systems to a higher standard, all while having his position threatened from the mongoloids upstairs.

Why do you hate him so much for bringing Liverpool closer to Utd's level? I thought all Utd fans wanted Liverpool to challenge them as they would enjoy the battle more - or is that just something they spout when there's no hope of it happening?

PHB · 17-02-2009 11:47AM

I don't want Liverpool to challenge to enjoy the battle more. I'm pretty happy where we are thanks

I'll be happier when we equal your league record, and be happier even still when we break it. Then we'll work on the European titles problem, and try catch up there. Then when we've broken all your records, then maybe I'll be happy to see you challenge

Until then, I'm good the way you are

[That said, I would like to see Leeds back in the premiership again, just to beat them]

Boggles · 17-02-2009 11:50AM

PiE wrote: »

Because he has also signed Alonso, Reina, Mascherano, Agger, Skrtel, Babel, Riera & Torres and made a profit on many of the players who didn't make it, rebuilt the youth and coaching systems to a higher standard, all while having his position threatened from the mongoloids upstairs.

Rafa is an excellent manager, but like all managers he has his faults but you seem to think he is infallible.

My point was he signed those players, some blame has to be attached but you don't see any wrong in him, , even to a point of bringing up an orgy in Chile FFS. :eek:

Supporting the manager is commendable, blind faith is Naive. I have said before he is excellent at recouping money for some of the players that didn't make it or weren't given the chance to make it, but ultimately it was Rafa who signed them, it is Rafa's job to get the best of them.

Rafa's unique man management has to be a factor in high player turnover, even his own captain is on record as saying he didn't know what he thought of him.

PiE wrote: »

Why do you hate him so much for bringing Liverpool closer to Utd's level? I thought all Utd fans wanted Liverpool to challenge them as they would enjoy the battle more - or is that just something they spout when there's no hope of it happening?

You have been truly misinformed.

Karmafaerie · 17-02-2009 11:51AM

PiE wrote: »

Voronin got a full season. Please don't start the Keane thing again.

Jazzy wrote: »

voronin was there for a year and was cr@p. did u not watch him or something? there was no "settling" involved. he would just be cr@p in every game

Was that the full season before or after he broke bones and tore ligaments in his ankle?!:rolleyes:

I'm not trying to say Voronin should come back, in fact I've said he shouldn't, but don't post crap like how Voronin had a full season, when he was out for 3 months, right in the middle of it!

PiE · 17-02-2009 12:11PM

Boggles wrote: »

Rafa is an excellent manager, but like all managers he has his faults but you seem to think he is infallible.

Um... no, I have posted my reservations about Rafa in the past.

I have said before he is excellent at recouping money for some of the players that didn't make it or weren't given the chance to make it, but ultimately it was Rafa who signed them, it is Rafa's job to get the best of them.

Every manager signs players that don't make it. Before Keane, Veron cost as much as all Rafa's flops put together - why bash Rafa for not giving players like Voronin/Gonzales/Nunez/Josemi more game time? You don't really care about those players - you know they're not good enough, there's just nothing bigger to bash him with right now.

even to a point of bringing up an orgy in Chile FFS.

He was kicked out of the Chile squad because of it. Also, it was in Dublin.

You have been truly misinformed.

Well that explains everything then, thanks.

Boggles · 17-02-2009 12:20PM

PiE wrote: »

Um... no, I have posted my reservations about Rafa in the past.

But his transfer policy and man management skills your fine with?

The point was he doesn't give players enough time at a club, I think it is a pretty reasonable assumption, evidenced in the amount of players that have come and gone in the past 5 years.

Mitch Connor · 17-02-2009 12:23PM

Boggles wrote: »

But his transfer policy and man management skills your fine with?

The point was he doesn't give players enough time at a club, I think it is a pretty reasonable assumption.

most of the players had enough time imo (keane being a notable exception imo)

The issue is, again imo, that most the players were simply poor buys and would never have got any better at liverpool simply because they were not good enough.

I would take a bigger issue with Benitez' signing/scouting policy rather than the time he gives to players.

whatawaster · 17-02-2009 12:23PM

Boggles wrote: »

But his transfer policy and man management skills your fine with?

The point was he doesn't give players enough time at a club, I think it is a pretty reasonable assumption, evidenced in the amount of players that have come and gone in the past 5 years.

He arguably can't afford to give them time, given the pressure he himself is under from the fans and the media.

PiE · 17-02-2009 12:26PM

On the flip-side, should he not be commended for accepting that players aren't working out and moving them on?

Barring Keane again, as it's apparent there was much more to that story - his man-management and transfer policy has been fine with me. Don't always agree with every transfer or decision he makes but that's why I'm working a 9-5, posting on a messageboard and he's sitting 2nd in the PL and about to face Real Madrid in the CL.

~Rebel~ · 17-02-2009 01:03PM

eagle eye wrote: »

Keane thing? I'm not talking specifically about Keane. Here is a list for you.
Josemi £2m
18 months at Liverpool
Antonio Nunez £2m
12 months
Fernando Morientes £6.5m
15 months
Craig Bellamy £6m
12 months
Gabriel Paletta £2m
12 months
Mark Gonzalez £4.5m
12 months
Andriy Voronin Free
12months
Robbie Keane £20m
6 months

I'm just pointing out that a lot of players don't get that long at Liverpool especially attacking players.
Some of the above have done it before and/or after at other clubs.
In a lot of cases with the players above, they were played out of position. Robbie Keane is a great example as he is a player who likes to drop off the front line and find space and create, thats what he made his name doing, but at Liverpool in most of his games he was asked to lead the line.
Quite the opposite happened to Fernando Morientes, he was a front line player who was played in a deeper role for much of his time with Liverpool.

The fact that some of these did not perform at Liverpool over the short time that they were there had nothing to do with the fact that it was a bigger club, more to do with them being played out of position.

Josemi £2m

18 months at Liverpool
-Decent start, got a bad head injury, never looked comfortable going in hard after that. Swapped for Kromkamp. Never ever played out of position

Antonio Nunez £2m

12 months
-Awful player, came tacked onto owen deal, spent first few months on treatment table. Never ever played out of position

Fernando Morientes £6.5m

15 months
-Great player who just wasn't able to impose himself on the EPL. Never looked as strong in the air as he did in Spain or France. Disagree that he was played out of position, he seemed to have a free role if anything to come back when he wanted and be the furthest man forward when he wanted.

Craig Bellamy £6m

12 months
-Brought in on the cheap, sold for profit after some disciplinary issues. Once or twice played wide, 99% of the time wasn't played out of position

Gabriel Paletta £2m

12 months
-Kid brought in from Argentina, looked ok, but never really progressed over his time at pool. Swapped out for Insua (amazingly good deal). Never every played out of position

Mark Gonzalez £4.5m

12 months
-Would have liked to give him another year, and i put a lot of his troubles down to Riise's awful season that year. Looked a different player in front of Aurelio. Never played out of position

Andriy Voronin Free

12months
-Brought for free, is STILL at the club. Bought as utility man and played as such in his strongest positions, off the front man or just wide. Neither were in any way new for him.

Robbie Keane £20m

6 months
-Yeah played out of position, only because the lead striker was injured. Started the majority of early games before Torres injury just off him. Unfortunate didn't get more time with Torres, but looked far from his best.

Karmafaerie · 17-02-2009 01:08PM

I don't think it's fair to say that he doesn't give players enough time (Keane being the exception as nearly all here would say).
We see them play for 90 mins maybe once a week.

Rafa works with them 6 days a week, and then spends hours going over tapes of them.
He has a better idea than anyone of whether they're working to his means.
If he thinks they can come good, they stay.
If he thinks they'll never work out the way he planned, they go.
Not the nicest of attitudes, but a very profesional one.

keane2097 · 17-02-2009 01:18PM

Karmafaerie wrote: »

I don't think it's fair to say that he doesn't give players enough time (Keane being the exception as nearly all here would say).
We see them play for 90 mins maybe once a week.

Rafa works with them 6 days a week, and then spends hours going over tapes of them.
He has a better idea than anyone of whether they're working to his means.
If he thinks they can come good, they stay.
If he thinks they'll never work out the way he planned, they go.
Not the nicest of attitudes, but a very profesional one.

Still I have to say looking at EagleEye's list there Liverpool do have a surprisingly big turnover when it comes to fringe players...

PiE · 17-02-2009 01:31PM

The list includes players from the last 5 seasons - it's really not very surprising.

Boggles · 17-02-2009 01:37PM

PiE wrote: »

On the flip-side, should he not be commended for accepting that players aren't working out and moving them on?

Not when he comes out with qoutes like this, not accepting blame for the amount of dross he purchased over the past 5 years.

United get a revenue of 65 mil euros more than us every year and they have the capability of buying three 20 million players every season. Chelsea will have spent £500 million over the past five years. We have built an entire team but economically we’re inferior and yet we are able to compete with them. There are plenty of stats to bore you with: United, only on Berbatov, spent 32 million pounds; every year they spend as they need to: 20 mil on Hargreaves, another 20 on Nani, 18 for Anderson. Seven years ago they spent 45 for Ferdinand! I, on the five years I’ve been here, spent less than 40 on Torres and Keane. There’s no discussion!

jesus_thats_gre · 17-02-2009 01:42PM

Boggles wrote: »

Rafa is an excellent manager, but like all managers he has his faults but you seem to think he is infallible.

Think about it.. If you keep repeating the same argument in the exact same fashion and basically rubbing people up the wrong way, they become stubborn and entrench themselves in opposition to your opinion.

If a mate of mine who I think is reasonable puts forward and carefully considered view on Rafa that conflicts with mine, I will actually concede some ground. If the same person started spouting some of the nonsense that is regularly posted here, I would argue in Rafa's favour to the death.

population · 17-02-2009 01:42PM

Well he needs to get his act together or he will lose Danny Agger which will be just unforgiveable in my book.

_blank_ · 17-02-2009 01:44PM

population wrote: »

Well he needs to get his act together or he will lose Danny Agger which will be just unforgiveable in my book.

If Agger goes certain people will be on here

a. defending Rafa
b. blaming everyone but Rafa, even though Rafa had not publically stated that he wants to keep Agger, in either deeds or words
c. slating Agger

PiE · 17-02-2009 01:46PM

Not when he comes out with qoutes like this, not accepting blame for the amount of dross he purchased over the past 5 years.

What's the problem with that?
He is/was trying to build an entire squad with the same amount of funds that Ferguson had to tweak his. Some didn't work out, others did.

Also I'm pretty sure he does want to keep Agger - but who do we drop to accommodate him? Skrtel's not put a foot wrong so far and Carragher's just not gonna be dropped for another year or two.

Also the hilarity of people bashing him for the "dross" he's bought while also demanding we not let Agger go has not been lost on me.

keane2097 · 17-02-2009 01:49PM

PiE wrote: »

What's the problem with that?

He is/was trying to build an entire squad with the same amount of funds that Ferguson had to tweak his. Some didn't work out, others did.

I'd like to see some numbers crunched before I'd be willing to comment much on this, but it's an interesting way to look at it in fairness...

jesus_thats_gre · 17-02-2009 01:49PM

Des wrote: »

If Agger goes certain people will be on here

b. blaming everyone but Rafa, even though Rafa had not publically stated that he wants to keep Agger, in either deeds or words

I am pretty certain that he has actually.. Saying that, I won't be going to the effort to track proof down.

Edit: Took 30 seconds:

http://www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk/liverpool-fc/liverpool-fc-news/2009/01/19/slow-jibe-over-daniel-agger-as-rafa-benitez-clashes-with-club-again-64375-22722627/

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/2009/01/19/liverpool-could-lose-daniel-agger-fears-rafa-benitez-115875-21053195/

I really wish that people would spend a few seconds to check that what they are saying isn't wrong.

So, if he does go, we will be blaming everyone but Rafa and will be focusing our attention on Parry and the owners.

Boggles · 17-02-2009 01:50PM

PiE wrote: »

He is/was trying to build an entire squad with the same amount of funds that Ferguson had to tweak his. Some didn't work out, others did.

Liverpool finished 4th, United 3rd both well off the pace.

Ferguson had to do alot more than tweak his squad.

keane2097 · 17-02-2009 01:53PM

Boggles wrote: »

Liverpool finished 4th, United 3rd both well off the pace.

Ferguson had to do alot more than tweak his squad.

Is this the year after Benitez took over?

whatawaster · 17-02-2009 01:55PM

keane2097 wrote: »

Is this the year after Benitez took over?

no the summer before i think.

Boggles · 17-02-2009 01:56PM

keane2097 wrote: »

Is this the year after Benitez took over?

That's how the 2003/2004 table ended up.

whatawaster · 17-02-2009 01:58PM

Boggles wrote: »

Liverpool finished 4th, United 3rd both well off the pace.

Ferguson had to do alot more than tweak his squad.

maybe, but show me the equivalents in that United squad of:

Diao, Diouf, Cheyrou, Cisse, Traore, Mellor, Le Tallec, Biscan, Smicer, Diarra.

Benitez had WAY more work to do.

jesus_thats_gre · 17-02-2009 02:01PM

Boggles wrote: »

Liverpool finished 4th, United 3rd both well off the pace.

Ferguson had to do alot more than tweak his squad.

Can you stop reading everything so literally and actually consider the point that you think he might be trying to make.

He is saying that in terms of development, the United first team and squad was a handful of world class players ahead of the Liverpool squads when, or just before, Benitez took over.

He is not trying to argue that Rafa spent less than AF in the same period of time. He is saying that even though both managers have spent a similar amount, AF has maybe bought 10 players at an average of 10million each whereas Rafa has bought 70 players at an average of 3 or 4 million a pop.

He is not trying to start as discussion on whether Rafa's policy of tearing up the existing squad and starting afresh when he took over is/was a valid policy. It is the policy that was chosen and inacted and in that context, he is making a point regarding the signings that we have made and the challenges that Rafa has faced in playing catch up to AF while also competing with Wenger and the money of Chelsea.

We are all intelligent enough so can we just take a deep breath when reading a post and actually consider the point they are trying to make.

Boggles · 17-02-2009 02:03PM

whatawaster wrote: »

maybe, but show me the equivalents in that United squad of:

Diao, Diouf, Cheyrou, Cisse, Traore, Mellor, Le Tallec, Biscan, Smicer, Diarra.

Howard, Phil Neville, Fortune, Butt, Forlan, Kleberson, Djemba-Djemba, Carrol, Bellion, Richardson, Johnson, Nardiello.

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

Can you stop reading everything so literally and actually consider the point that you think he might be trying to make.

He is saying that in terms of development, the United first team and squad was a handful of world class players ahead of the Liverpool squads when, or just before, Benitez took over.

He is not trying to argue that Rafa spent less than AF in the same period of time. He is saying that even though both managers have spent a similar amount, AF has maybe bought 10 players at an average of 10million each whereas Rafa has bought 70 players at an average of 3 or 4 million a pop.

He is not trying to start as discussion on whether Rafa's policy of tearing up the existing squad and starting afresh when he took over is/was a valid policy. It is the policy that was chosen and inacted and in that context, he is making a point regarding the signings that we have made and the challenges that Rafa has faced in playing catch up to AF while also competing with Wenger and the money of Chelsea.

We are all intelligent enough so can we just take a deep breath when reading a post and actually consider the point they are trying to make.

What are you, his official spokeman?

jesus_thats_gre · 17-02-2009 02:09PM

Boggles wrote: »

Howard, Phil Neville, Fortune, Butt, Forlan, Kleberson, Djemba-Djemba, Carrol, Bellion, Richardson, Johnson, Nardiello.

Ironically enough, most could be considered to be dross and alot were signed by AF.

Can you draft a list of the quality players that were in that United squad when Benitez took over? You know, the likes of Giggs, Scholes, Ferdinand, Van Nistelroy, Wayne Rooney, Ronaldo and whoever else.

internelligent · 17-02-2009 02:13PM

Boggles wrote: »

What are you, his official spokeman?

Is that your only response to his argument?

jesus_thats_gre · 17-02-2009 02:14PM

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

Ironically enough, most could be considered to be dross and alot were signed by AF.

Can you draft a list of the quality players that were in that United squad when Benitez took over? You know, the likes of Giggs, Scholes, Ferdinand, Van Nistelroy, Wayne Rooney, Ronaldo and whoever else.

This is the list of Liverpool players:

Sami Hyypia
Michael Owen - wanted to leave and was sold immediately
Dietmar Hamann - coming to the end of his career
Steven Gerrard
Jamie Carragher

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