Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread

L'prof · 16-02-2009 05:13PM

Boggles wrote: »

200 million at this stage??

£0.5m to Arsenal though

daithijjj · 16-02-2009 05:16PM

Third_Echelon wrote: »

Sounds like you watch it week in, week out to have a broad sweeping statement like that?

The german league is not as bad as you may think. Currently 5th in the European leagues according to the UEFA co-efficient:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_coefficients

It's not to the standard of the premier league or la liga, but lads, it is far from sh1t....

ive seen enough of it to know its on a massive slide backwards........not to mention the poor showing of any german club in european competition for a good few years. And coefficients dont add up too much when the likes of the romanian league is 7th despite being a virtual despot in comparison to the rest of europe. The types of defenders that voronin is up against over in germany are very average if im generous.

daithijjj · 16-02-2009 05:18PM

Boggles wrote: »

Adebayor and Santa cruz have done alright, less than 4 million each.

Bellamy didnt have much joy either.......but is doing pretty well since he left.

Karmafaerie · 16-02-2009 05:23PM

Boggles wrote: »

I think you would be in the minority Karmafaerie, if Gerrard was to have a prolonged injury, I don't think anyone would be happy having Voronin cover for a few months.

Voronin is not the worst player in the world, but he is by no means a great player, he looked well out of his debt at times with liverpool last season.

He is 30 this year and will never become more than an above average player in an average league.

And who in the Liverpool squad could cover for Stevie?

Benayoun?

Nobody could live up to him, and I don't want Voronin back cause I think we can do better.
I think that we'll have more money in the summer, and a lot of the dross will be gone.

Voronin is good enough for emergency cover however if we have a crisis, as I'm sure he can be recalled from his loan.

Boggles · 16-02-2009 05:27PM

Karmafaerie wrote: »

And who in the Liverpool squad could cover for Stevie?

Benayoun?

If it were a choice between Benayoun and Vorinon, I'd go with the Israeli every time.

Karmafaerie wrote: »

Voronin is good enough for emergency cover however if we have a crisis, as I'm sure he can be recalled from his loan.

According to the man himself he doesn't want to come back and wants to make his move permanent.

Karmafaerie · 16-02-2009 05:31PM

daithijjj wrote: »

ive seen enough of it to know its on a massive slide backwards........not to mention the poor showing of any german club in european competition for a good few years. And coefficients dont add up too much when the likes of the romanian league is 7th despite being a virtual despot in comparison to the rest of europe. The types of defenders that voronin is up against over in germany are very average if im generous.

And lets not forget Shalke made the quaterfinals of the Champions League last year.
Bayern made the quarters in 2007
Bremen and Bayern made the last 16 in 2006.
And Bayern have made the Knock out stages so far this season, topping their group.

Not exactly the disaster you seem to imply now is it.

Karmafaerie · 16-02-2009 05:41PM

Boggles wrote: »

If it were a choice between Benayoun and Vorinon, I'd go with the Israeli every time.

Only against certain teams.
Benni is too small to be effective against the bigger man markers.
Benni has better control, but Voronin is much better at bringing other players into play.

Boggles wrote:

According to the man himself he doesn't want to come back and wants to make his move permanent.

I don't want him back either!;)

Melion · 16-02-2009 06:03PM

Boggles wrote: »

Adebayor and Santa cruz have done alright, less than 4 million each.

Do you just pull random bullshít from the air? Adebayor cost £7m

Cyrus · 16-02-2009 06:06PM

Melion wrote: »

Do you just pull random bullshít from the air?

i thought that had been established as fact at this stage

Boggles · 16-02-2009 06:11PM

Melion wrote: »

Do you just pull random bullshít from the air? Adebayor cost £7m

No I just don't trust Wikipedia, unlike yourself.

jesus_thats_gre · 16-02-2009 06:13PM

Please don't start some bull**** argument in an attempt to justify any claims that Voronin might be able to do a job for us..

eagle eye · 16-02-2009 06:24PM

There have been plenty of successful strikers who were cheap. Blackburn have bought Bellamy for 5m only for Liverpool to rob him the next season. Then we got Benni McCarthy for 1.5m I think it was, and last year Roque Santa Cruz for 3.5m. Thats three at one club.

I'd expect the next big signing by one of the big clubs to be Amir Zaki, he is on loan at Wigan, don't know if they have a deal to sign him at the end of the loan spell but he certainly looks like he will be moving to a bigger club.

PiE · 16-02-2009 06:29PM

Voronin would probably look quite decent at a mid/lower-table PL team.

daithijjj · 16-02-2009 07:22PM

Karmafaerie wrote: »

And lets not forget Shalke made the quaterfinals of the Champions League last year.
Bayern made the quarters in 2007
Bremen and Bayern made the last 16 in 2006.
And Bayern have made the Knock out stages so far this season, topping their group.

Not exactly the disaster you seem to imply now is it.

What exactly is great about that record for the whole german league?..............should i go through the teams in the prem and list the records of everyones appearances over the last few seasons?.......and then after this, suggest that voronin might be capable against such prem defences. Voronin is a donkey who never should have got a red shirt..........i said this before he joined from leverkusen, during his time with us and now. Standards have really dropped when this type of player is even mentioned to play at anfield.

~Rebel~ · 16-02-2009 07:32PM

daithijjj wrote: »

What exactly is great about that record for the whole german league?..............should i go through the teams in the prem and list the records of everyones appearances over the last few seasons?.......and then after this, suggest that voronin might be capable against such prem defences. Voronin is a donkey who never should have got a red shirt..........i said this before he joined from leverkusen, during his time with us and now. Standards have really dropped when this type of player is even mentioned to play at anfield.

Not standards, money.

Boggles · 16-02-2009 07:36PM

~Rebel~ wrote: »

Not standards, money.

Bundesliga is extremely rich.

eagle eye · 16-02-2009 07:38PM

PiE wrote: »

Voronin would probably look quite decent at a mid/lower-table PL team.

Let me see, you are saying that if he is not able to perform in a big team with all the 'elite' players around him that he would succeed in a mid/lower table Premier League team?

How about maybe giving players more than 6 months or one season to settle in and see how they do after that.

MementoMori · 16-02-2009 07:41PM

PiE wrote: »

Voronin would probably look quite decent at a mid/lower-table PL team.

Speaking of ...... Don't know how reliable this is but I just read one after the other.

THE RUMOUR MILL

Andriy Voronin and his tightly-pulled ponytail will swap Hertha Berlin for Tottenham in the summer.

Arsène Wenger and Rafa Benítez love Japanese comics so much they don't care if Angers' 20-year-old defender Bruno Ecuele Manga is any good or not.

Had a quick look for anything about Manga - couldnt find much - apparently a CB from Gabon

http://football.guardian.co.uk/fiver/

~Rebel~ · 16-02-2009 07:48PM

Boggles wrote: »

Bundesliga is extremely rich.

I dont understand, what do you mean?

He said Voronin should never have been a l'pool player and that standards have dropped. I said not standards, money. We got Voronin for free and thats the only reason he was ever a liverpool player. Im not sure where the relevence of the Bundesliga's wealth comes into it...

PiE · 16-02-2009 07:52PM

eagle eye wrote: »

Let me see, you are saying that if he is not able to perform in a big team with all the 'elite' players around him that he would succeed in a mid/lower table Premier League team?

That's exactly what I'm saying. Players performing extemely well at mid-table clubs often struggle to make that final step up.

How about maybe giving players more than 6 months or one season to settle in and see how they do after that.

Voronin got a full season. Please don't start the Keane thing again.

~Rebel~ · 16-02-2009 07:58PM

PiE wrote: »

That's exactly what I'm saying. Players performing extemely well at mid-table clubs often struggle to make that final step up.

also less expectation on them then at a top 4 club.

daithijjj · 16-02-2009 08:08PM

~Rebel~ wrote: »

I dont understand, what do you mean?

He said Voronin should never have been a l'pool player and that standards have dropped. I said not standards, money. We got Voronin for free and thats the only reason he was ever a liverpool player. Im not sure where the relevence of the Bundesliga's wealth comes into it...

Aye, fair enough, we may well have been skint in the summer he signed. However, i remember vividly, a friend of mine told me we had signed him through a pre contract agreement in the tranfsfer window 6 months previous to that. Watched him a few times before that for leverkusen and thought he was rubbish. Personally, id rather rafa gave nemeth a few games or wait for the right man to become available than suffer the sight of garbage players like him on the pitch.

~Rebel~ · 16-02-2009 08:48PM

daithijjj wrote: »

Aye, fair enough, we may well have been skint in the summer he signed. However, i remember vividly, a friend of mine told me we had signed him through a pre contract agreement in the tranfsfer window 6 months previous to that. Watched him a few times before that for leverkusen and thought he was rubbish. Personally, id rather rafa gave nemeth a few games or wait for the right man to become available than suffer the sight of garbage players like him on the pitch.

Yup, we did get him to sign a precontract before his own ran out, Because he was free. Remember he was the 4th in the pecking order of attacking players brought in that summer of torres, yossi and babel

Jazzy · 16-02-2009 09:18PM

eagle eye wrote: »

Let me see, you are saying that if he is not able to perform in a big team with all the 'elite' players around him that he would succeed in a mid/lower table Premier League team?

How about maybe giving players more than 6 months or one season to settle in and see how they do after that.

voronin was there for a year and was cr@p. did u not watch him or something? there was no "settling" involved. he would just be cr@p in every game

eagle eye · 17-02-2009 07:01AM

PiE wrote: »

That's exactly what I'm saying. Players performing extemely well at mid-table clubs often struggle to make that final step up.

Voronin got a full season. Please don't start the Keane thing again.

Keane thing? I'm not talking specifically about Keane. Here is a list for you.
Josemi £2m

18 months at Liverpool
Antonio Nunez £2m

12 months
Fernando Morientes £6.5m

15 months
Craig Bellamy £6m

12 months
Gabriel Paletta £2m

12 months
Mark Gonzalez £4.5m

12 months
Andriy Voronin Free

12months
Robbie Keane £20m

6 months

I'm just pointing out that a lot of players don't get that long at Liverpool especially attacking players.
Some of the above have done it before and/or after at other clubs.
In a lot of cases with the players above, they were played out of position. Robbie Keane is a great example as he is a player who likes to drop off the front line and find space and create, thats what he made his name doing, but at Liverpool in most of his games he was asked to lead the line.
Quite the opposite happened to Fernando Morientes, he was a front line player who was played in a deeper role for much of his time with Liverpool.

The fact that some of these did not perform at Liverpool over the short time that they were there had nothing to do with the fact that it was a bigger club, more to do with them being played out of position.

PiE · 17-02-2009 10:43AM

From your own stats, players get an average of 12.375 months to prove themselves.

So where did you pull the "duhh try giving players more than 6 months" rubbish from?

Josemi, Nunez & Palleta were all cheap punts and clearly were not up to standard, Morientes was a monumental disappointment (and I don't buy Wikipedia's reasoning being that he was played in a deeper role, he was just too slow), Gonzales had some good games but mostly failed to impress and his off-pitch antics may have played a role in his departure (that whole orgy thing while on international duty with Chile), Bellamy wanted to leave due to Torres' arrival/didn't want to be a "squad player" and surprisingly enough I didn't hear anyone weeping too hard. Voronin's been done to death over the last couple of pages.

So that leaves Keane as the only reason for your original statement. Which, by your own admission, was wrong.

Boggles · 17-02-2009 11:00AM

PiE wrote: »

From your own stats, players get an average of 12.375 months to prove themselves.

So where did you pull the "duhh try giving players more than 6 months" rubbish from?

Josemi, Nunez & Palleta were all cheap punts and clearly were not up to standard, Morientes was a monumental disappointment (and I don't buy Wikipedia's reasoning being that he was played in a deeper role, he was just too slow), Gonzales had some good games but mostly failed to impress and his off-pitch antics may have played a role in his departure (that whole orgy thing while on international duty with Chile), Bellamy wanted to leave due to Torres' arrival/didn't want to be a "squad player" and surprisingly enough I didn't hear anyone weeping too hard. Voronin's been done to death over the last couple of pages.

So that leaves Keane as the only reason for your original statement. Which, by your own admission, was wrong.

They have all one thing in common, all signed by Rafa. Yet you attach no blame to the Spanish one, How Come?

zing · 17-02-2009 11:02AM

eagle eye - not trying to defend buying/selling players so quickly but at least 2 of the players you mentioned wanted to leave as they simply hadn't settled in the UK. Namely Josemi (the guy apparently hadn't even tried to learn english) & Paletta (homesick iirc). There have been others too - e.g. Josemi was swapped for Kromkamp who also didn't settle (he hadn't settled in spain before that) and sought a return to NL.

The point is that you can't label every player who's been sold on quickly the same way.

Some of the others did surprise me - namely Keane & Speedy

Also Nunez didn't cost 2m - he was free as part of the Owen deal. There was no choice in the player - it was you can have Xm for Owen or Xm + Nunez. He had plenty of game time that season iirc and didn't really do much and I believe cashing in on him was the right option.

_blank_ · 17-02-2009 11:02AM

Any of you lot got this months FourFourTwo?

Good interview with Torres in there, read it this morning on the bus.

Also, I'm heading over to Berlin in May to see a Hertha match, hopefully Voronin is still there.

Boggles · 17-02-2009 11:07AM

Des wrote: »

Also, I'm heading over to Berlin in May to see a Hertha match, hopefully Voronin is still there.

Why are you a fan of the pony tailed one?

Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread

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