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Lenihan May Be Gone By Week End - Now What?

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    #32
    Zynks
    Registered Users Posts: 1,693 ✭✭✭Zynks


    anonymous_joe wrote: »
    ...it's lawyers who make sure the law is obeyed...
    Wouldn't that be the judges and the police?
    anonymous_joe wrote: »
    plenty of lawyers are good people...
    No issue with that.


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    #33
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    bmaxi wrote: »
    Is it not the case that his department saw the significance of the event and reported to the Financial Regulator? It is unbelievable that Lenihan could not have known about this. Personally I think it is just another instalment in the Anglo Irish cover up.

    I have to agree, I don't think there is anyway he could not have known about it.

    It sounded like Bertie when he was saying that.

    Might as well have said he didn't have a bank account.


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    #34
    ninty9er
    Registered Users Posts: 9,366 ✭✭✭ninty9er


    Zynks wrote: »
    I am saying I would like a qualified person appointed...by the Taoiseach (for which position I would like to vote directly incidentally).

    Nobody in the Dail was elected for their financial knowledge. Why should we then be restricted to one of them to run the DoF?

    There is a better chance of a good financial head being picked in the "open market" than of a TD proving to be a good MoF.
    MoF is a job for which not one person on this plaent is qualified for. Regardless of country, the holder of the purse strings will NEVER have been in a position like it, unless a previous MoF.

    Getting rid of soneone who is learning from their mistakes so someone else can restart the process is a folly with no other purpose than to appease the naysayers and ABFF crowd like Darragh29 and old boy. As a member of the party, there are ministers I have a belief in, and those I don't. Lenihan is one of the most competent people in cabinet. It would be pointless to replace him.
    thebman wrote: »
    Who in FF would manage this better than Brian Lenihan?

    If he's being thrown out, we need a replacment. I don't think there is one in FF or (hahaha) the greens.
    or Labour, or FG or SF, or anywhere. And before anyone suggests David McWilliams, he's a fine novelist, but a Minister for Finance he will not make, and Michael O'Leary is having enough trouble saving Ryanair from the markets at the moment.
    anonymous_joe wrote: »
    The obvious complaint I have is someone being in charge of a field they lack expertise in.
    Again. No one person anywhere has this expertise.

    Also, I do believe they knew not providing the guarantee would have caused a house of cards as someone must have known about ILP.


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    #35
    Zynks
    Registered Users Posts: 1,693 ✭✭✭Zynks


    ninty9er, I appreciate your honesty in clarifying where you stand regarding party loyalty. But I disagree with the concept that a MoF role should allow for much of a learning curve. The economy is complex, specially when external factors have so much influence in ours, so getting someone with economics background would reduce significantly the teething problems.

    Mr. Lenihan may be a competent person as you mention, and even a very good politician. But those credentials mean nothing when the subject at hand is the economy of a country.

    But I see your point that it would be pointless to replace him. Yes, if the choices are restricted to the member of the Dail (technically they don't have to be from FF, right?), then it seems we are stuck alright, and we will have to fund as many learning mistakes as it takes.


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    #36
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    Zynks wrote: »
    ninty9er, I appreciate your honesty in clarifying where you stand regarding party loyalty. But I disagree with the concept that a MoF role should allow for much of a learning curve. The economy is complex, specially when external factors have so much influence in ours, so getting someone with economics background would reduce significantly the teething problems.

    An economics background wouldn't necessarily prepare someone for policy making plus an argument can be made that it's better to have a bunch of economists advising a politician than it is to expect the public to elect even one good economist as a TD.


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    #37
    Darragh29
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,097 ✭✭✭Darragh29


    anonymous_joe wrote: »
    Again your post is nothing more than an attack on the legal profession. As I said, lose the chip in your shoulder.

    If you're so convinced lawyers are evil, what profession would you like to see 'cleaning up'?

    It may very well be an attack on the legal profession but it is one that is well deserved. Just look at the sheer incompetence of these two individuals, Cowen & Lenihan and guess what, you could alomst guess if you didn't know either of them, that they are a product of the legal system of this country. Their whole lives have been spent either settling matters to keep them out of the High Court or else denying all and any liability before a court, if people cannot be bought off. Even today, Lenihan true to form, denying liability, refusing to come clean about the full liabilities that the taxpayers of this country are now exposed to, (if he is even aware of those liabilities and he doesn't appear to be aware of them in any event).

    And we are now asking these two individuals to clean up a corrupt banking system and bring in transparency and accountability into the financial system??? The last people you appoint to bring accountability or respectability into any field are people in the legal profession. What on earth would a solicitor or a barrister know about accountability or transparency, or even more importantly, what would they know about the generation of jobs in an economy or how to create employment???

    These people (barristers), live in a completely parallel universe, where they get dressed up in gowns four times a year and dine down at the Kings Inn with other institutionalised colleagues. If you ever want to see a solicitor unmasked and in full flight, go down to Court 44 in the Bridewell in Dublin behind the Four Courts and see how they really operate. Standing up one after the other lying through their teeth to get sentences reduced, you wouldn't see the same carry on down on Benburb Street...


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    #38
    jmayo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,168 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    voxpop wrote: »
    Are you saying that you'd prefer an unelected person to be minister of finance ?

    Anyone but the current shower.
    anonymous_joe wrote: »
    Again your post is nothing more than an attack on the legal profession. As I said, lose the chip in your shoulder.

    If you're so convinced lawyers are evil, what profession would you like to see 'cleaning up'?

    Dynorod appear to be good at dealing with sewage.

    Was Micheal Lyng not a solictor and was he ever struck off ?
    For every Obama I would bet we can find a Lyng or two ?
    ninty9er wrote: »
    ....
    Getting rid of soneone who is learning from their mistakes so someone else can restart the process is a folly with no other purpose than to appease the naysayers and ABFF crowd like Darragh29 and old boy. As a member of the party, there are ministers I have a belief in, and those I don't. Lenihan is one of the most competent people in cabinet. It would be pointless to replace him.
    ...
    Again. No one person anywhere has this expertise.

    Also, I do believe they knew not providing the guarantee would have caused a house of cards as someone must have known about ILP.

    But ninty9er was FF not telling everyone at time of last election they were the only ones who knew how to run our economy ?
    They had the expertise.

    Maybe they had a typo in the statements as it should have been RUIN rather then RUN.

    Weren't you one of those on boards telling us all at the time of the last election what a wonderful job they (your party) had done and that the only ones that could run our economy was FF ?
    Are you now saying that the minister needs to loose a few billion to get the hang of things :rolleyes:

    Are you now admitting FF did not have the expertise to run things ?

    PS have you been out canvassing lately ?


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    #39
    Zynks
    Registered Users Posts: 1,693 ✭✭✭Zynks


    nesf wrote: »
    An economics background wouldn't necessarily prepare someone for policy making
    Then we will have to agree to disagree in this one. In an extreme situation like the one we have today, I would value economics knowledge over political experience and would prefer a specialist running the DoF.
    nesf wrote: »
    plus an argument can be made that it's better to have a bunch of economists advising a politician than it is to expect the public to elect even one good economist as a TD.
    Sure, but I never suggested the path to good MoFs should be through the Dail. That's my whole point.

    Look at the profile of German MoF. He is qualified for the job in my view, though I still think the head of government should have the prerrogative of appointing a non-elected MoF if there was a better candidate for the job.


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    #40
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    Zynks wrote: »
    Then we will have to agree to disagree in this one. In an extreme situation like the one we have today, I would value economics knowledge over political experience and would prefer a specialist running the DoF.

    Sure, but I never suggested the path to good MoFs should be through the Dail. That's my whole point.

    I would agree with you but we're stuck for the moment with the system we have so we're at the mercy of what the people elect and bluntly finely nuanced logic and analysis isn't something that they vote for. When I look at the rest of the front bench I don't see much to replace Lenihan with.


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    #41
    Pub07
    Closed Accounts Posts: 532 ✭✭✭Pub07


    ninty9er wrote: »
    MoF is a job for which not one person on this plaent is qualified for. Regardless of country, the holder of the purse strings will NEVER have been in a position like it, unless a previous MoF.

    Of course you can be qualified for MoF. Pick the top financial guy in the country, he will automatically be the most qualified. There is the issue of releveant experience. Look who Obama picked for example - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_Geithner. Do you think Obama said 'hmm, no-one's qualified for such a job, Ill just pick anyone, probably one of my friends' like Brian Cowen did...no he would say something like 'get me a list of the top guys in the country and ill pick somone from that'.
    Getting rid of soneone who is learning from their mistakes so someone else can restart the process is a folly with no other purpose than to appease the naysayers and ABFF crowd like Darragh29 and old boy. As a member of the party, there are ministers I have a belief in, and those I don't. Lenihan is one of the most competent people in cabinet. It would be pointless to replace him.

    Learning from their mistakes? While on the job as Minister for Finance? We should have someone in there who is qualified in financial matters and who is not going to have to be defending new mistakes every single week. Basic stuff like reading a report given to him by PWC....what is he supposed to learn from that? Next time read the full report....should he have to learn to do that or should he not know it already?

    We would be much better off if the Taoiseach could appoint a MoF ouside of FF. Someone who has a track record of 30+ years experience in dealing in financial/economic matters at the top level for example. To say bringing in such a person is a folly while leaving Lenehan, a guy who has next to no experience with finanical matters, to blunder his way on is a joke of a statement.


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    #42
    Sir Oxman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,492 ✭✭✭Sir Oxman


    I agree with the notion (and that's all it would ever be in Banana-Ire-land) that an MoF does not need to be from the ranks of the TDs.

    Even moreso now, this country needs at least a finance team with competence in this role.

    But, it's jobs for the boys time and to feck with the country.


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    #43
    juvenal
    Registered Users Posts: 2,155 ✭✭✭juvenal


    Brian Lenihan is on RTÉ Six-One News now.


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    #44
    Sir Oxman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,492 ✭✭✭Sir Oxman


    I'm waiting for the familial 'on mature recollection' bit...


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    #45
    Phototoxin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,398 ✭✭✭Phototoxin


    Well on RTÉ this evening (currently on) I love how his eyes dart to the left when he's lying...


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    #46
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    First thing into my head was get a banker in but that one has been shot down and we all know why :D
    If we could bend the rules a bit, get a German in, they hardly got involved in the Anglo-Saxon way of finance(bubble cycles)!


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    #47
    Its So Easy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 158 ✭✭Its So Easy


    1jtjp9ppgqau8.jpg


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    #48
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    gurramok wrote: »
    If we could bend the rules a bit, get a German in, they hardly got involved in the Anglo-Saxon way of finance(bubble cycles)!

    Yet their economy is getting hammered at the moment. Being prudent doesn't look like much of a defence unfortunately.


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    #49
    Zynks
    Registered Users Posts: 1,693 ✭✭✭Zynks


    nesf wrote: »
    Yet their economy is getting hammered at the moment. Being prudent doesn't look like much of a defence unfortunately.

    Sorry Nesf, but that's a rather simplistic view. Germany is the powerhorse of Europe and a significant net contributor. The light at the end of their tunnel is kind of brighter than ours. They have a serious national industry. What do we have?


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    #50
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    nesf wrote: »
    Yet their economy is getting hammered at the moment. Being prudent doesn't look like much of a defence unfortunately.

    Thats because the consumer nations like US/UK and us have stopped buying as we are up to our eyeballs in debt.

    My point was that their public finances are in much better shape which attracts investors to their country moreover than most other countries.
    Maybe what i'm saying is, their govt can manage their economy much better than the rest giving a future to their youth (no mass German emigration since WWII) hence lets recruit one of their financial brains!


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    #51
    jmayo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,168 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    gurramok wrote: »
    First thing into my head was get a banker in but that one has been shot down and we all know why :D
    If we could bend the rules a bit, get a German in, they hardly got involved in the Anglo-Saxon way of finance(bubble cycles)!

    I think you have forgotten about the HypoReal Estate bailout by Bundesbanke.
    BTW it was offshooot operating out of IFSC that was actually the one buying the US derivatives if I am not mistaken.
    Yes I know Hypos IT section was once operating out of there also.
    Perhaps someone can correct me on this ?
    Zynks wrote: »
    Sorry Nesf, but that's a rather simplistic view. Germany is the powerhorse of Europe and a significant net contributor. The light at the end of their tunnel is kind of brighter than ours. They have a serious national industry. What do we have?

    Ahhh you will find Gormless has been talking to the EU about installing energy saving lightbulbs at the end of all European tunnels, so not much light expected at the end of any tunnel in future ;)
    Way to go for the Greens :D

    Did we frighten our one poor FF spokesman (ninty99er) away ?
    Maybe he has gone off to buy Lenihan a few junior cert economics books perhaps :D
    We are such an ungrateful shower, aren't we ?


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    #52
    Mr.Micro
    Registered Users Posts: 5,336 ✭✭✭Mr.Micro


    My big worry about Brian Lenihan is that he really is not up for the job and I said many times here that the bankers would do a number ( several it now looks like) on him. The latest being the deposit into the Anglo that he or his team of advisors did not spot for some time. :rolleyes:

    My other worry is that he is not a detached or independent operator but a FF Minister and since all this turmoil happened as a result of FF policies as well as the global meltdown, so how can we be guaranteed that all the s...t will not be revealed, especially if its connected to FF cronies. This whole matter should be investigated by an independent panel if one can be found. If not get one from the UK or US.


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    #53
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    Zynks wrote: »
    Sorry Nesf, but that's a rather simplistic view. Germany is the powerhorse of Europe and a significant net contributor. The light at the end of their tunnel is kind of brighter than ours. They have a serious national industry. What do we have?

    I don't disagree, I was more lamenting their present troubles despite their fiscal self-control than saying that we didn't have things to learn from them. I think we would do well to develop that kind of restraint as a nation.

    Seeing their projections (and those of others) cast beside those of the UK (who have had far more excesses in their economy in finance and real estate) is grim reading: http://www.economist.com/world/britain/displaystory.cfm?story_id=13110366


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    #54
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    gurramok wrote: »
    My point was that their public finances are in much better shape which attracts investors to their country moreover than most other countries.
    Maybe what i'm saying is, their govt can manage their economy much better than the rest giving a future to their youth (no mass German emigration since WWII) hence lets recruit one of their financial brains!

    I'd agree with your first point but I'd be cautious about the second, the Irish and German economies are very different animals. What works for a large federalist state with a long tradition in manufacturing doesn't necessarily carry over for a small island nation at the periphery of Europe.


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