Lenihan May Be Gone By Week End - Now What?

Zynks

Mr. Lenihan may be a good politician, but he wouldn't have survived a full week running any serious financial institution.

Now there is a strong chance he will be gone very soon. Problem is that another financially challenged TD has to take his place. Not good news for us really because we would be getting rid of a bad fit and putting another in place until he/she screws up at a cost of several more billion yo-yos. That is, of course, assuming any of them is willing to commit political harakiri for the good of FF, ahem, the country.

Can anyone confirm if there is any legislation that allows a non TD to take the role? If not, it may be time to hit the roads and demand an emergency change in the legislation, this is an national emergency after all....

ixoy

Zynks wrote: »

Mr. Lenihan may be a good politician, but he wouldn't have survived a full week running any serious financial institution.

Thankfully, the only financial situation he ran, the good old Irish economy, turned out to be one big joke...

Sand

Now there is a strong chance he will be gone very soon

Why is this considered likely? Theres no general election coming up is there?

Victor

Zynks wrote: »

Can anyone confirm if there is any legislation that allows a non TD to take the role?

While I think up to three cabinet members can be non-TDs, the Taoiseach (and by implication Tainiste) and MoF must be TDs.

Darragh29

Zynks wrote: »

Mr. Lenihan may be a good politician...

Herein lies the problem. Mr. Lenihan is a well qualified Senior Council. His whole working life has revolved around denying and refuting liability and covering up with agreed settlement payments, anything that might look unsavory if it gets into the High Court or the Supreme Court.

I can't think of a man more unqualified to deal with our economic disaster than a man who has operated at one profession below the trade of prostitution when it comes to honour, integrity and value for money...

nesf

Zynks wrote: »

Now there is a strong chance he will be gone very soon.

And this is based on? If you're going to say to something like this on this forum state whether it's just your unsubstantiated belief or if there's something to back up the assertion.

marcsignal

rats, titanic, and the greens are lining up the deckchairs..........

Darragh29

marcsignal wrote: »

rats, titanic, and the greens are lining up the deckchairs..........

I think the Titanic was sinking at a slower a rate than our economy and luckily found herself in milder waters...

EDIT: Oh, and at least the Titanic had deckchairs!

Tristram

Where is he going? When? How? Please refrain from posting bolox if you're not gonna back it up.

anonymous_joe

Darragh29 wrote: »

Herein lies the problem. Mr. Lenihan is a well qualified Senior Council. His whole working life has revolved around denying and refuting liability and covering up with agreed settlement payments, anything that might look unsavory if it gets into the High Court or the Supreme Court.

I can't think of a man more unqualified to deal with our economic disaster than a man who has operated at one profession below the trade of prostitution when it comes to honour, integrity and value for money...

Jaysus, lose the chip in your shoulder about lawyers.

Senior Counsel for the record.

Anyway, claiming Lenihan is some sneaky divvil trying to cheat us all out of our hard-earned money is moronic. I don't like Fianna Fáil, but most of their current problems are due to ineptitude, not malice.

I'd have serious complaints with an expert in the legal field being taken from the Ministry of Justice and given Finance. It'd make far more sense for him still to be the Minister for Justice.

Darragh29

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Jaysus, lose the chip in your shoulder about lawyers.

Senior Counsel for the record.

Anyway, claiming Lenihan is some sneaky divvil trying to cheat us all out of our hard-earned money is moronic. I don't like Fianna Fáil, but most of their current problems are due to ineptitude, not malice.

I'd have serious complaints with an expert in the legal field being taken from the Ministry of Justice and given Finance. It'd make far more sense for him still to be the Minister for Justice.

Grand, Counsel. no matter how you spell the word, the last person who should be asked to solve any problem is a Barrister or a Solicitor, these professions spend their whole working lives sweeping problems under the carpet and denying that black is black and white is white. We are lamped with not one useless legal c*nt but two, as Cowen is a Solicitor....

sceptre

Victor wrote: »

While I think up to three cabinet members can be non-TDs, the Taoiseach (and by implication Tainiste) and MoF must be TDs.

AFAIR you're right, part of the reason being that the Seanad can't initiate money bills, which are obviously squarely DoF matters. It's been relatively rare to have any senior ministries occupied by a senator - though I assume there were others, James Dooge is the only one I remember (Foreign affairs for a few months in 1981).

All ministers have to be either TDs or senators. There's no prohibition on appointing someone to the Seanad just to appoint them as a minister though (that's how Dooge got the job), though not to Taoiseach, Tanaiste or MoF, assuming we both remember the rule correctly.

monkfish

OP: Now there is a strong chance he will be gone very soon.

After yesterday's revelations, I completely agree with the OP. There is no way to spin this lack of oversight in an emergency. 7 bn. Yet on the radio this morning, he was waffling about how banks move money around all the time. 7bn. If the opposition has any energy left, he is now a sitting duck.

Sleipnir

Don't think he will be gone. If CJ Haughey got away with all the stuff he did, and Bertie Ahern the same with all his shenannigans, this "not telling the boss" something is peanuts.

mike65

"it might not have jumped off the page at him"

Hagar

Zynks wrote: »

Mr. Lenihan ... Now there is a strong chance he will be gone very soon.

Not a chance, he's part of the ruling dynasty passed on from father to son. He'll still be here at the next election and he will be voted back in by the faithful regardless of how he performs now. It's Ireland get real, we have a hidden monarchy.

Zynks

nesf wrote: »

And this is based on? If you're going to say to something like this on this forum state whether it's just your unsubstantiated belief or if there's something to back up the assertion.

There was a €7 billion blunder uncovered on Tuesday and the opposition leaders have called for his resignation. If you saw the Lenihan's body language on RTE News last night after speaking, you may have noticed he looked very shaken. I think I have enough arguments to suggest he MAY be gone soon.

The country is already in turmoil for €2 billion "savings", what will €7 billion do?

Not identifying addressing this massive issue is either severe incompetence or he plainly mislead the Dail and the public. Wait until the reality sinks in.

It is my opinion that he might and should go soon. There certainly is pressure in that direction:

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/pressure-on-minister--to-resign-over-report-blunder-1636908.html

Note the inclusion of the word "may" in the title of the thread. Having said that, the main subject I wanted to discuss was that we are stuck to a pool of TDs from where the cabinet is defined, and this is not in the country's interest in my view.

voxpop

Zynks wrote: »

Having said that, the main subject I wanted to discuss was that we are stuck to a pool of TDs from where the cabinet is defined, and this is not in the country's interest in my view.

Are you saying that you'd prefer an unelected person to be minister of finance ?

Zynks

voxpop wrote: »

Are you saying that you'd prefer an unelected person to be minister of finance ?

I am saying I would like a qualified person appointed...by the Taoiseach (for which position I would like to vote directly incidentally).

Nobody in the Dail was elected for their financial knowledge. Why should we then be restricted to one of them to run the DoF?

There is a better chance of a good financial head being picked in the "open market" than of a TD proving to be a good MoF.

Raiser

voxpop wrote: »

Are you saying that you'd prefer an unelected person to be minister of finance ?

In my opinion you could pick the the average schoolchild off the streets and put them in Brian Lenihan's Office.

- I'm sure they could fail to read reports that they themselves had requested in much the same moronic, imbecilic manner. Perhaps they could do an even better job of not reading them?

- I bet they would be too busy on their Xbox to even think of taking medical cards off senior Citizens who had paid their taxes for 60+ years.

I could go on......

AlekSmart

I think I have enough arguments to suggest he MAY be gone soon.

With the emerging news of Minister Lenihan`s lack of interest in the PWC reports specifics we can safely concur with the OP`s original assertion.

As has been pointed out elsewhere Brian Lenihan is a qualified Barrister and as such would be very much au-fait with the structure and form of such reports and their inate ability to conceal bombshells deep in addendum or indicies etc.

However he`s not alone in this disability as it has been an ongoing developing trait in Irish Parliamentarians since we decided to employ "Consultants" to perform the work previously done by shrewd Political brains themselves..

One need look no further than Ms Harney,Mr Dempsey,Mr O`Dea and Ms Hanifin for yet more examples of Govermental over reliance on the "What my experts tell me" form of Governance.

lostexpectation

it amazing conincidence that something happened that could easily have been at the behest of anglo led cabal occured.

anonymous_joe

Darragh29 wrote: »

Grand, Counsel. no matter how you spell the word, the last person who should be asked to solve any problem is a Barrister or a Solicitor, these professions spend their whole working lives sweeping problems under the carpet and denying that black is black and white is white. We are lamped with not one useless legal c*nt but two, as Cowen is a Solicitor....

Again your post is nothing more than an attack on the legal profession. As I said, lose the chip in your shoulder.

If you're so convinced lawyers are evil, what profession would you like to see 'cleaning up'?

rugbyman

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Again your post is nothing more than an attack on the legal profession. As I said, lose the chip in your shoulder.

If you're so convinced lawyers are evil, what profession would you like to see 'cleaning up'?

Joe, in EVERY legal case in the world, there is a losing side, therefore ,in Ireland, at least one losing solicitor and perhaps a Barrister. This implies that 50 % of the lawyers who take a case get it wrong. It is not unreasonable for darragh to suggest the legal agents,who can fight either side of any case, are glib, sleight of tongue types(my words). i see no reason to suggest he has a `chip``.

re Brian Lenihan

I do not vote FF
I quite like Brian Lenihan
I think he is quite capable.
The gaffe over the 7 bn however, hard to overlook. While Brian has to shoulder the blame.some of his advisors need demotion.


I would not like to see him resign
regards,Rugbyman

ejmaztec

Assuming that neither Cowen, Lenihan, or anyone else in the government, know feck all about economics, I'd like to know who the "economists" are that are calling the shots. Any ideas?

thebman

Who in FF would manage this better than Brian Lenihan?

If he's being thrown out, we need a replacment. I don't think there is one in FF or (hahaha) the greens.

Most politicians when you look at their background would be in way over their head doing this job.
By it's very nature they have to rely heavily on their senior civil servants who lets be honest,while they may have a fair grasp of the legilslature and tools that are used in the dept of Finance...they are too removed from the real world of business to be able to do the thing half right either.

timbel

thebman wrote: »

Who in FF would manage this better than Brian Lenihan?

If he's being thrown out, we need a replacment. I don't think there is one in FF or (hahaha) the greens.

Ok, I went through the FFers in Dail and looked at their profiles.
There are 5 former accountants that are now FF TDs:

Sean Ardagh
Michael Ahern
Brian Keneally
Niall Collins
Michael McGrath

None of these TDs are in the cabinet (junior or senior).

Surely someone who has experience in accountancy/financial control would be a more suitable in the Dept of Finance than say Minister of State Martin Mansergh (Former Special Adviser to the Taoiseach (Charles Haughey)!).

old boy

hagar is correct, nothing changes, he will not resign, plus the opposition do not have the know how to force his or any others resignation, not alone do i detest f.f i actually despise them, but to me the opposition could have a carboard cut out for a leader and they would fare out no worse or no better than they are at the moment, this country is crying out for a leader, what have we, only grey clueless bemonths, i am in the autumn of my life and i have given up the hope that i will see this country with a leader, are all the years of people going to collage end in waste, young people put your knowlage to productive use, do not waste the oppertunitys that i and my equals worked and suffered to put in place go to waste, (and were unadvailable to us), elect a leader, please forgive my rant.

bmaxi

rugbyman wrote: »

Joe, in EVERY legal case in the world, there is a losing side, therefore ,in Ireland, at least one losing solicitor and perhaps a Barrister. This implies that 50 % of the lawyers who take a case get it wrong. It is not unreasonable for darragh to suggest the legal agents,who can fight either side of any case, are glib, sleight of tongue types(my words). i see no reason to suggest he has a `chip``.

re Brian Lenihan

I do not vote FF
I quite like Brian Lenihan
I think he is quite capable.
The gaffe over the 7 bn however, hard to overlook. While Brian has to shoulder the blame.some of his advisors need demotion.


I would not like to see him resign
regards,Rugbyman

Is it not the case that his department saw the significance of the event and reported to the Financial Regulator? It is unbelievable that Lenihan could not have known about this. Personally I think it is just another instalment in the Anglo Irish cover up.

anonymous_joe

rugbyman wrote: »

Joe, in EVERY legal case in the world, there is a losing side, therefore ,in Ireland, at least one losing solicitor and perhaps a Barrister. This implies that 50 % of the lawyers who take a case get it wrong. It is not unreasonable for darragh to suggest the legal agents,who can fight either side of any case, are glib, sleight of tongue types(my words). i see no reason to suggest he has a `chip``.

re Brian Lenihan

I do not vote FF
I quite like Brian Lenihan
I think he is quite capable.
The gaffe over the 7 bn however, hard to overlook. While Brian has to shoulder the blame.some of his advisors need demotion.


I would not like to see him resign
regards,Rugbyman

Oh I know what you mean about 50% being wrong, but the guy I was quoting seems to dislike Lenihan because of his legal background and has a hangup over that. From another perspective, it's lawyers who make sure the law is obeyed, plenty of lawyers are good people, Barack Husein Jesus Obama's a lawyer after all. I see no point in denigrating an entire profession as evil monsters.

The obvious complaint I have is someone being in charge of a field they lack expertise in.

Zynks

anonymous_joe wrote: »

...it's lawyers who make sure the law is obeyed...

Wouldn't that be the judges and the police?

anonymous_joe wrote: »

plenty of lawyers are good people...

No issue with that.

thebman

bmaxi wrote: »

Is it not the case that his department saw the significance of the event and reported to the Financial Regulator? It is unbelievable that Lenihan could not have known about this. Personally I think it is just another instalment in the Anglo Irish cover up.

I have to agree, I don't think there is anyway he could not have known about it.

It sounded like Bertie when he was saying that.

Might as well have said he didn't have a bank account.

ninty9er

Zynks wrote: »

I am saying I would like a qualified person appointed...by the Taoiseach (for which position I would like to vote directly incidentally).

Nobody in the Dail was elected for their financial knowledge. Why should we then be restricted to one of them to run the DoF?

There is a better chance of a good financial head being picked in the "open market" than of a TD proving to be a good MoF.

MoF is a job for which not one person on this plaent is qualified for. Regardless of country, the holder of the purse strings will NEVER have been in a position like it, unless a previous MoF.

Getting rid of soneone who is learning from their mistakes so someone else can restart the process is a folly with no other purpose than to appease the naysayers and ABFF crowd like Darragh29 and old boy. As a member of the party, there are ministers I have a belief in, and those I don't. Lenihan is one of the most competent people in cabinet. It would be pointless to replace him.

thebman wrote: »

Who in FF would manage this better than Brian Lenihan?

If he's being thrown out, we need a replacment. I don't think there is one in FF or (hahaha) the greens.

or Labour, or FG or SF, or anywhere. And before anyone suggests David McWilliams, he's a fine novelist, but a Minister for Finance he will not make, and Michael O'Leary is having enough trouble saving Ryanair from the markets at the moment.

anonymous_joe wrote: »

The obvious complaint I have is someone being in charge of a field they lack expertise in.

Again. No one person anywhere has this expertise.

Also, I do believe they knew not providing the guarantee would have caused a house of cards as someone must have known about ILP.

Zynks

ninty9er, I appreciate your honesty in clarifying where you stand regarding party loyalty. But I disagree with the concept that a MoF role should allow for much of a learning curve. The economy is complex, specially when external factors have so much influence in ours, so getting someone with economics background would reduce significantly the teething problems.

Mr. Lenihan may be a competent person as you mention, and even a very good politician. But those credentials mean nothing when the subject at hand is the economy of a country.

But I see your point that it would be pointless to replace him. Yes, if the choices are restricted to the member of the Dail (technically they don't have to be from FF, right?), then it seems we are stuck alright, and we will have to fund as many learning mistakes as it takes.

nesf

Zynks wrote: »

ninty9er, I appreciate your honesty in clarifying where you stand regarding party loyalty. But I disagree with the concept that a MoF role should allow for much of a learning curve. The economy is complex, specially when external factors have so much influence in ours, so getting someone with economics background would reduce significantly the teething problems.

An economics background wouldn't necessarily prepare someone for policy making plus an argument can be made that it's better to have a bunch of economists advising a politician than it is to expect the public to elect even one good economist as a TD.

Darragh29

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Again your post is nothing more than an attack on the legal profession. As I said, lose the chip in your shoulder.

If you're so convinced lawyers are evil, what profession would you like to see 'cleaning up'?

It may very well be an attack on the legal profession but it is one that is well deserved. Just look at the sheer incompetence of these two individuals, Cowen & Lenihan and guess what, you could alomst guess if you didn't know either of them, that they are a product of the legal system of this country. Their whole lives have been spent either settling matters to keep them out of the High Court or else denying all and any liability before a court, if people cannot be bought off. Even today, Lenihan true to form, denying liability, refusing to come clean about the full liabilities that the taxpayers of this country are now exposed to, (if he is even aware of those liabilities and he doesn't appear to be aware of them in any event).

And we are now asking these two individuals to clean up a corrupt banking system and bring in transparency and accountability into the financial system??? The last people you appoint to bring accountability or respectability into any field are people in the legal profession. What on earth would a solicitor or a barrister know about accountability or transparency, or even more importantly, what would they know about the generation of jobs in an economy or how to create employment???

These people (barristers), live in a completely parallel universe, where they get dressed up in gowns four times a year and dine down at the Kings Inn with other institutionalised colleagues. If you ever want to see a solicitor unmasked and in full flight, go down to Court 44 in the Bridewell in Dublin behind the Four Courts and see how they really operate. Standing up one after the other lying through their teeth to get sentences reduced, you wouldn't see the same carry on down on Benburb Street...

jmayo

voxpop wrote: »

Are you saying that you'd prefer an unelected person to be minister of finance ?

Anyone but the current shower.

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Again your post is nothing more than an attack on the legal profession. As I said, lose the chip in your shoulder.

If you're so convinced lawyers are evil, what profession would you like to see 'cleaning up'?

Dynorod appear to be good at dealing with sewage.

Was Micheal Lyng not a solictor and was he ever struck off ?
For every Obama I would bet we can find a Lyng or two ?

ninty9er wrote: »

....
Getting rid of soneone who is learning from their mistakes so someone else can restart the process is a folly with no other purpose than to appease the naysayers and ABFF crowd like Darragh29 and old boy. As a member of the party, there are ministers I have a belief in, and those I don't. Lenihan is one of the most competent people in cabinet. It would be pointless to replace him.
...
Again. No one person anywhere has this expertise.

Also, I do believe they knew not providing the guarantee would have caused a house of cards as someone must have known about ILP.

But ninty9er was FF not telling everyone at time of last election they were the only ones who knew how to run our economy ?
They had the expertise.

Maybe they had a typo in the statements as it should have been RUIN rather then RUN.

Weren't you one of those on boards telling us all at the time of the last election what a wonderful job they (your party) had done and that the only ones that could run our economy was FF ?
Are you now saying that the minister needs to loose a few billion to get the hang of things :rolleyes:

Are you now admitting FF did not have the expertise to run things ?

PS have you been out canvassing lately ?

Zynks

nesf wrote: »

An economics background wouldn't necessarily prepare someone for policy making

Then we will have to agree to disagree in this one. In an extreme situation like the one we have today, I would value economics knowledge over political experience and would prefer a specialist running the DoF.

nesf wrote: »

plus an argument can be made that it's better to have a bunch of economists advising a politician than it is to expect the public to elect even one good economist as a TD.

Sure, but I never suggested the path to good MoFs should be through the Dail. That's my whole point.

Look at the profile of German MoF. He is qualified for the job in my view, though I still think the head of government should have the prerrogative of appointing a non-elected MoF if there was a better candidate for the job.

nesf

Zynks wrote: »

Then we will have to agree to disagree in this one. In an extreme situation like the one we have today, I would value economics knowledge over political experience and would prefer a specialist running the DoF.

Sure, but I never suggested the path to good MoFs should be through the Dail. That's my whole point.

I would agree with you but we're stuck for the moment with the system we have so we're at the mercy of what the people elect and bluntly finely nuanced logic and analysis isn't something that they vote for. When I look at the rest of the front bench I don't see much to replace Lenihan with.

Pub07

ninty9er wrote: »

MoF is a job for which not one person on this plaent is qualified for. Regardless of country, the holder of the purse strings will NEVER have been in a position like it, unless a previous MoF.

Of course you can be qualified for MoF. Pick the top financial guy in the country, he will automatically be the most qualified. There is the issue of releveant experience. Look who Obama picked for example - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_Geithner. Do you think Obama said 'hmm, no-one's qualified for such a job, Ill just pick anyone, probably one of my friends' like Brian Cowen did...no he would say something like 'get me a list of the top guys in the country and ill pick somone from that'.

Getting rid of soneone who is learning from their mistakes so someone else can restart the process is a folly with no other purpose than to appease the naysayers and ABFF crowd like Darragh29 and old boy. As a member of the party, there are ministers I have a belief in, and those I don't. Lenihan is one of the most competent people in cabinet. It would be pointless to replace him.

Learning from their mistakes? While on the job as Minister for Finance? We should have someone in there who is qualified in financial matters and who is not going to have to be defending new mistakes every single week. Basic stuff like reading a report given to him by PWC....what is he supposed to learn from that? Next time read the full report....should he have to learn to do that or should he not know it already?

We would be much better off if the Taoiseach could appoint a MoF ouside of FF. Someone who has a track record of 30+ years experience in dealing in financial/economic matters at the top level for example. To say bringing in such a person is a folly while leaving Lenehan, a guy who has next to no experience with finanical matters, to blunder his way on is a joke of a statement.

Sir Oxman

I agree with the notion (and that's all it would ever be in Banana-Ire-land) that an MoF does not need to be from the ranks of the TDs.

Even moreso now, this country needs at least a finance team with competence in this role.

But, it's jobs for the boys time and to feck with the country.

juvenal

Brian Lenihan is on RTÉ Six-One News now.

Sir Oxman

I'm waiting for the familial 'on mature recollection' bit...

Phototoxin

Well on RTÉ this evening (currently on) I love how his eyes dart to the left when he's lying...

gurramok

First thing into my head was get a banker in but that one has been shot down and we all know why
If we could bend the rules a bit, get a German in, they hardly got involved in the Anglo-Saxon way of finance(bubble cycles)!

Its So Easy

nesf

gurramok wrote: »

If we could bend the rules a bit, get a German in, they hardly got involved in the Anglo-Saxon way of finance(bubble cycles)!

Yet their economy is getting hammered at the moment. Being prudent doesn't look like much of a defence unfortunately.

Zynks

nesf wrote: »

Yet their economy is getting hammered at the moment. Being prudent doesn't look like much of a defence unfortunately.

Sorry Nesf, but that's a rather simplistic view. Germany is the powerhorse of Europe and a significant net contributor. The light at the end of their tunnel is kind of brighter than ours. They have a serious national industry. What do we have?

gurramok

nesf wrote: »

Yet their economy is getting hammered at the moment. Being prudent doesn't look like much of a defence unfortunately.

Thats because the consumer nations like US/UK and us have stopped buying as we are up to our eyeballs in debt.

My point was that their public finances are in much better shape which attracts investors to their country moreover than most other countries.
Maybe what i'm saying is, their govt can manage their economy much better than the rest giving a future to their youth (no mass German emigration since WWII) hence lets recruit one of their financial brains!

jmayo

gurramok wrote: »

First thing into my head was get a banker in but that one has been shot down and we all know why
If we could bend the rules a bit, get a German in, they hardly got involved in the Anglo-Saxon way of finance(bubble cycles)!

I think you have forgotten about the HypoReal Estate bailout by Bundesbanke.
BTW it was offshooot operating out of IFSC that was actually the one buying the US derivatives if I am not mistaken.
Yes I know Hypos IT section was once operating out of there also.
Perhaps someone can correct me on this ?

Zynks wrote: »

Sorry Nesf, but that's a rather simplistic view. Germany is the powerhorse of Europe and a significant net contributor. The light at the end of their tunnel is kind of brighter than ours. They have a serious national industry. What do we have?

Ahhh you will find Gormless has been talking to the EU about installing energy saving lightbulbs at the end of all European tunnels, so not much light expected at the end of any tunnel in future
Way to go for the Greens

Did we frighten our one poor FF spokesman (ninty99er) away ?
Maybe he has gone off to buy Lenihan a few junior cert economics books perhaps
We are such an ungrateful shower, aren't we ?