Flawed social welfare system

brosps · 11-02-2009 06:45PM #1

I was reading some of the threads on AH and i just thought how incredibly illogical the dole is, espicially in a time of recession wasting tax payers money on people who don't have a chance of contributing back to society in the near future just seems so infuriating.

Why don't dole recievers at least have mandatory community service, or contribute to a public sector. If i were on the dole [which i might look into soon lol l:> ] I would find it perceftly acceptable for tax payers to withhold my "earnings" unless I took a mandatory class in domestic economics, or worked a part-time shift down the local gardai station.

I don't pay tax as I'm a leeching student but I hate the fact that there is this huge hole in state spending that could potentially bring a return but won't.

Silly question I suppose but am I being a scroungry right-wing capatilist-head or does anyone else agree with me ?

javaboy · 11-02-2009 06:54PM

I think part of the problem is the negative associations with the idea of a workhouse or workfarm but really it's a crying shame not to utilise, if even a little bit, such a massive labour pool. e.g If each dole recipient picked up 3 or 4 pieces of litter a day, that would be a million pieces of rubbish gone in a day.

11-02-2009 06:58PM

it's infuriating.. drives me insane. worst is that the new levy on my salary equates to pretty much the rise in dole before christmas?! why without inflation i don't know.

clean up our forests, streets and and graffiti.. at least come out of this recession lookin pretty!

Lockstep · 11-02-2009 06:59PM

Welfare isn't "free"

We pay for it when we have a job.
The state supports us when we lose it.

brosps · 11-02-2009 07:00PM

kickoutthejams wrote: »

Welfare isn't "free"

We pay for it when we have a job.
The state supports us when we lose it.

True but what about the majority of taxpayers who never go on the dole?

11-02-2009 07:00PM

it is free for alot of people who've never considered doin anythin else.. maybe compulsary community service after 3 years?

Sea Sharp · 11-02-2009 07:01PM

That'd be communism.

It'll probably have to be decreased, depending on how bad things get. Desperate times, desperate measures.

(You could also argue that people in prisons should be made to work to cover their costs to the taxpayer)

preilly79 · 11-02-2009 07:03PM

kickoutthejams wrote: »

Welfare isn't "free"

We pay for it when we have a job.
The state supports us when we lose it.

Ok then, how about providing an incentive? People on the dole can perform community service in return for tax credits when they do get a job? Sounds fair.

11-02-2009 07:03PM

GaNjaHaN wrote: »

That'd be communism.

It'll probably have to be decreased, depending on how bad things get. Desperate times, desperate measures.

they say communism is perfect apart from greed and no incentive to work.

incentive to do community service is dole?

bikki · 11-02-2009 07:04PM

I find it funny, if you lost your job tomorrow and theres no chance of getting another would you still be on here spouting the same crap?

Jet Black · 11-02-2009 07:04PM

So you'd have thousands of people cleaning the streets putting the street cleaners out of work

All for 180euro pw.

It would work to encourage some of the ones whos on 'job seekers' for life.

Are/did they try this in the UK.
Still can never see it happening here

11-02-2009 07:05PM

bikki wrote: »

I find it funny, if you lost your job tomorrow and theres no chance of getting another would you still be on here spouting the same crap?

i'd be happy to pick up litter for a few hours a week in order to get my 205euro.

everyone would.

brosps · 11-02-2009 07:07PM

heymcflyx wrote: »

So you'd have thousands of people cleaning the streets putting the street cleaners out of work All for 180euro pw.

It would work to encourage some of the ones whos on 'job seekers' for life.

Are/did they try this in the UK.
Still can never see it happening here

Yeah, actually thats exactly what I said. Everyone on the dole must be a street cleaner.

I agree that I can't see it happening anytime soon, I was just wondering if anyone else sees how this could benifit the crushed economy.

bikki · 11-02-2009 07:09PM

Deleted User wrote: »

i'd be happy to pick up litter for a few hours a week in order to get my 205euro.

everyone would.

Ah yeah sure, people the people who are paid to clean the streets might have something to say about it.

Oh wait, once they lose there job's that they get paid 450 euro week doing they can join the dole que and do the exact same job for 200 instead

brosps · 11-02-2009 07:12PM

bikki wrote: »

Ah yeah sure, people the people who are paid to clean the streets might have something to say about it.

Oh wait, once they lose there job's that they get paid 450 euro week doing they can join the dole que and do the exact same job for 200 instead

They're paid by the state they arn't going to lose their job, any kind of over-employed sector would obviously be reduced and the remaining workforce would be asked to work in another sector. It's not as if the government is run by some sort of street cleaning fanatic who doesn't understand basic economic principles.

Jet Black · 11-02-2009 07:13PM

Deleted User wrote: »

clean up our forests, streets and and graffiti.. at least come out of this recession lookin pretty!

brosps wrote: »

Yeah, actually thats exactly what I said. Everyone on the dole must be a street cleaner.

Referring to this

11-02-2009 07:15PM

bikki wrote: »

Ah yeah sure, people the people who are paid to clean the streets might have something to say about it.

Oh wait, once they lose there job's that they get paid 450 euro week doing they can join the dole que and do the exact same job for 200 instead

ok, try and get street cleaner out of your head. there are other things.

Boston · 11-02-2009 07:19PM

Suitable for everyone? Your solution is that anyone on the dole should become a state employee even in the role they're placed in is completely unsuitable to their skill set. What about the people who are already paid to do these jobs, should they take a pay cut? How is someone meant to find a job when they're spending their days working for the government.

bikki · 11-02-2009 07:21PM

Yes there are other things, but there are labour laws. At what point does it turn into a real job?

or

Round up all the old people and use them has fuel to run the power plants.

There to old to work and are a drain on resources.

So win win.

cornbb · 11-02-2009 07:26PM

brosps wrote: »

I was reading some of the threads on AH and i just thought how incredibly illogical the dole is, espicially in a time of recession wasting tax payers money on people who don't have a chance of contributing back to society in the near future just seems so infuriating.

What on earth makes you think people on the dole won't be contributing soon?

Why don't dole recievers at least have mandatory community service, or contribute to a public sector.

I'm on the dole and I spend an awful lot of time searching for jobs, writing CVs, on the phone with recruitment agencies, etc. If I was doing "community service" (way to make us sound like criminals btw) how would I find time to search for work?

I don't pay tax as I'm a leeching student but I hate the fact that there is this huge hole in state spending that could potentially bring a return but won't.

You don't seem to understand the social welfare system very well at all. Its a form of social insurance. I've paid tens of thousands of euros in tax in the last number of years and now you would begrudge me my right to claim a few hundred euros a week back while I look for work for a month or 2?

Silly question I suppose but am I being a scroungry right-wing capatilist-head or does anyone else agree with me ?

No, I don't think you're a very clever person.

Lockstep · 11-02-2009 07:26PM

brosps wrote: »

True but what about the majority of taxpayers who never go on the dole?

What about them?

The safety net exists for them if they need it.

preilly79 wrote: »

Ok then, how about providing an incentive? People on the dole can perform community service in return for tax credits when they do get a job? Sounds fair.

An incentive for what? Getting back into employment?

What kind of community service anyway, chances are it will take away from someone who has a job and make it harder for the unemployed to find a job (as they are working as a community service person)

brosps · 11-02-2009 07:29PM

Ok well there are ways around what your saying.

In regards to them finding a job, those on the dole could be assigned to check companies recruiting and match CV from other dole workers to positions, monitored by some trained government employee. Perhaps its getting a bit extreme now but I genuinely believe that it would be a huge improvement on the current system.

In regards to a skill set, the whole idea is that they would be doing the kind of jobs that would be snobbed over by other workers, it should in theory benefit everyone as it is better than no fixed income. Even the training provided to perhaps become a part-time gardai would benifit society and improve a CV.

cornbb · 11-02-2009 07:29PM

brosps wrote: »

True but what about the majority of taxpayers who never go on the dole?

The majority of people who pay home insurance never claim because their house doesn't burn down. The social welfare system is also a form of insurance.

Lockstep · 11-02-2009 07:35PM

brosps wrote: »

In regards to a skill set, the whole idea is that they would be doing the kind of jobs that would be snobbed over by other workers, it should in theory benefit everyone as it is better than no fixed income. Even the training provided to perhaps become a part-time gardai would benifit society and improve a CV.

What kind of job would you feel would work on a large scale?

I would be extremely hesitant to give someone Gardai powers (even part time) for no other reason than they were unemployed and had passed a course knowing they needed to do so to continue getting welfare.

brosps · 11-02-2009 07:37PM

Obviously the people on the dole are hating on me right now, but social welfare is one of our top 3 tax paid sectors, if not our highest spending. The taxes reduced by dole workers actually creating revenue would be a great boost to the economy and free up a lot of money.

In regards to some comment up above the only one that i see as being confusing is when i mentioned that they might not be contributing in the near future, what i meant is that incase you didnt notice we are in this ridiculously recurring recession right now and it's going to be getting increasingly worse. I didn't mean that dole workers arnt going to be looking for work I'm saying that right now it's just not out there.

Yeah mabey you're right about the gardai thing (havnt thought this out fully just on the top of my head), but surley a filing assistant for maintance in a hospital or gardai station would increase productivity and reduce costs.

In regards to social welfare being a safety net. Work would still be available, the safety net would still be there, it just wouldn't be free.

bikki · 11-02-2009 07:39PM

kickoutthejams wrote: »

What kind of job would you feel would work on a large scale?

I would be extremely hesitant to give someone Gardai powers (even part time) for no other reason than they were unemployed and had passed a course knowing they needed to do so to continue getting welfare.

Id be extremely hesitant to give some Gardai powers.

I find it funny some people on here think that because ur on the dole ur either scum and a drain on society or a criminal who's swindling the system.

cornbb · 11-02-2009 07:42PM

brosps wrote: »

(havnt thought this out fully just on the top of my head)

Clearly not. I think you should do some serious thinking.

Do you think you should be doing some community work in order to cover the cost of your college fees?

brosps · 11-02-2009 07:46PM

Never said they were a leech on resources, just that this would be a better use of said resources.

I'm not too sure about doing community service for college, perhaps if i wasnt going to college to become a skilled member of the workforce. (trying not to sound like a d*ickhead when i say this but failing)

ShooterSF · 11-02-2009 07:48PM

Ok I just don't get your idea. I'm assuming you want people on the dole to become semi-jobseekers semi-public emplyed? You realise you have to pay atleast minimum wage?
Fair enough if you give them 3 days of "community service" for the dole and paid €207.60 (based on minimum wage) instead of jobseeker's benefit how do you suggest this will save money? The tax payer is still going to pay them, letting people go from public jobs to replace them with dole-workers would just add them to this list and replacing private jobs would put more people into the public sector (paying dole-workers and the new dole claimers that lost their job to your system)

Can you explain how you'd be saving money?

cornbb · 11-02-2009 07:50PM

brosps wrote: »

I'm not too sure about doing community service for college, perhaps if i wasnt going to college to become a skilled member of the workforce. (trying not to sound like a d*ickhead when i say this but failing)

I have a first class hons Masters degree and I ended up on the dole, don't think it'll never happen to you.

brosps · 11-02-2009 07:51PM

What i meant by saving tax euros is that it would certainly stop any kind of leakages and dole scammers. People with jobs that have cash in hand would find it pretty much physically impossible to take advantage of the system which is appereantly quite a problem.

It would also increase the set of skills our potential work force would have and attract foreign companys but w/e

Flawed social welfare system

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