Flawed social welfare system

brosps

I was reading some of the threads on AH and i just thought how incredibly illogical the dole is, espicially in a time of recession wasting tax payers money on people who don't have a chance of contributing back to society in the near future just seems so infuriating.

Why don't dole recievers at least have mandatory community service, or contribute to a public sector. If i were on the dole [which i might look into soon lol l:> ] I would find it perceftly acceptable for tax payers to withhold my "earnings" unless I took a mandatory class in domestic economics, or worked a part-time shift down the local gardai station.

I don't pay tax as I'm a leeching student but I hate the fact that there is this huge hole in state spending that could potentially bring a return but won't.

Silly question I suppose but am I being a scroungry right-wing capatilist-head or does anyone else agree with me ?

javaboy

I think part of the problem is the negative associations with the idea of a workhouse or workfarm but really it's a crying shame not to utilise, if even a little bit, such a massive labour pool. e.g If each dole recipient picked up 3 or 4 pieces of litter a day, that would be a million pieces of rubbish gone in a day.

it's infuriating.. drives me insane. worst is that the new levy on my salary equates to pretty much the rise in dole before christmas?! why without inflation i don't know.



clean up our forests, streets and and graffiti.. at least come out of this recession lookin pretty!

Lockstep

Welfare isn't "free"

We pay for it when we have a job.
The state supports us when we lose it.

brosps

kickoutthejams wrote: »

Welfare isn't "free"

We pay for it when we have a job.
The state supports us when we lose it.

True but what about the majority of taxpayers who never go on the dole?

it is free for alot of people who've never considered doin anythin else.. maybe compulsary community service after 3 years?

Sea Sharp

That'd be communism.

It'll probably have to be decreased, depending on how bad things get. Desperate times, desperate measures.


(You could also argue that people in prisons should be made to work to cover their costs to the taxpayer)

preilly79

kickoutthejams wrote: »

Welfare isn't "free"

We pay for it when we have a job.
The state supports us when we lose it.

Ok then, how about providing an incentive? People on the dole can perform community service in return for tax credits when they do get a job? Sounds fair.

GaNjaHaN

GaNjaHaN wrote: »

That'd be communism.

It'll probably have to be decreased, depending on how bad things get. Desperate times, desperate measures.

they say communism is perfect apart from greed and no incentive to work.

incentive to do community service is dole?

bikki

I find it funny, if you lost your job tomorrow and theres no chance of getting another would you still be on here spouting the same crap?

Jet Black

So you'd have thousands of people cleaning the streets putting the street cleaners out of work All for 180euro pw.

It would work to encourage some of the ones whos on 'job seekers' for life.


Are/did they try this in the UK.
Still can never see it happening here

bikki

bikki wrote: »

I find it funny, if you lost your job tomorrow and theres no chance of getting another would you still be on here spouting the same crap?

i'd be happy to pick up litter for a few hours a week in order to get my 205euro.

everyone would.

brosps

heymcflyx wrote: »

So you'd have thousands of people cleaning the streets putting the street cleaners out of work All for 180euro pw.

It would work to encourage some of the ones whos on 'job seekers' for life.


Are/did they try this in the UK.
Still can never see it happening here

Yeah, actually thats exactly what I said. Everyone on the dole must be a street cleaner.

I agree that I can't see it happening anytime soon, I was just wondering if anyone else sees how this could benifit the crushed economy.

bikki

Deleted User wrote: »

i'd be happy to pick up litter for a few hours a week in order to get my 205euro.

everyone would.

Ah yeah sure, people the people who are paid to clean the streets might have something to say about it.

Oh wait, once they lose there job's that they get paid 450 euro week doing they can join the dole que and do the exact same job for 200 instead

brosps

bikki wrote: »

Ah yeah sure, people the people who are paid to clean the streets might have something to say about it.

Oh wait, once they lose there job's that they get paid 450 euro week doing they can join the dole que and do the exact same job for 200 instead

They're paid by the state they arn't going to lose their job, any kind of over-employed sector would obviously be reduced and the remaining workforce would be asked to work in another sector. It's not as if the government is run by some sort of street cleaning fanatic who doesn't understand basic economic principles.

Jet Black

Deleted User wrote: »

clean up our forests, streets and and graffiti.. at least come out of this recession lookin pretty!

brosps wrote: »

Yeah, actually thats exactly what I said. Everyone on the dole must be a street cleaner.

Referring to this

bikki

bikki wrote: »

Ah yeah sure, people the people who are paid to clean the streets might have something to say about it.

Oh wait, once they lose there job's that they get paid 450 euro week doing they can join the dole que and do the exact same job for 200 instead

ok, try and get street cleaner out of your head. there are other things.

Boston

Suitable for everyone? Your solution is that anyone on the dole should become a state employee even in the role they're placed in is completely unsuitable to their skill set. What about the people who are already paid to do these jobs, should they take a pay cut? How is someone meant to find a job when they're spending their days working for the government.

bikki

Yes there are other things, but there are labour laws. At what point does it turn into a real job?

or

Round up all the old people and use them has fuel to run the power plants.

There to old to work and are a drain on resources.

So win win.

cornbb

brosps wrote: »

I was reading some of the threads on AH and i just thought how incredibly illogical the dole is, espicially in a time of recession wasting tax payers money on people who don't have a chance of contributing back to society in the near future just seems so infuriating.

What on earth makes you think people on the dole won't be contributing soon?

Why don't dole recievers at least have mandatory community service, or contribute to a public sector.

I'm on the dole and I spend an awful lot of time searching for jobs, writing CVs, on the phone with recruitment agencies, etc. If I was doing "community service" (way to make us sound like criminals btw) how would I find time to search for work?

I don't pay tax as I'm a leeching student but I hate the fact that there is this huge hole in state spending that could potentially bring a return but won't.

You don't seem to understand the social welfare system very well at all. Its a form of social insurance. I've paid tens of thousands of euros in tax in the last number of years and now you would begrudge me my right to claim a few hundred euros a week back while I look for work for a month or 2?

Silly question I suppose but am I being a scroungry right-wing capatilist-head or does anyone else agree with me ?

No, I don't think you're a very clever person.

Lockstep

brosps wrote: »

True but what about the majority of taxpayers who never go on the dole?

What about them?

The safety net exists for them if they need it.

preilly79 wrote: »

Ok then, how about providing an incentive? People on the dole can perform community service in return for tax credits when they do get a job? Sounds fair.

An incentive for what? Getting back into employment?

What kind of community service anyway, chances are it will take away from someone who has a job and make it harder for the unemployed to find a job (as they are working as a community service person)

brosps

Ok well there are ways around what your saying.


In regards to them finding a job, those on the dole could be assigned to check companies recruiting and match CV from other dole workers to positions, monitored by some trained government employee. Perhaps its getting a bit extreme now but I genuinely believe that it would be a huge improvement on the current system.


In regards to a skill set, the whole idea is that they would be doing the kind of jobs that would be snobbed over by other workers, it should in theory benefit everyone as it is better than no fixed income. Even the training provided to perhaps become a part-time gardai would benifit society and improve a CV.

cornbb

brosps wrote: »

True but what about the majority of taxpayers who never go on the dole?

The majority of people who pay home insurance never claim because their house doesn't burn down. The social welfare system is also a form of insurance.

Lockstep

brosps wrote: »

In regards to a skill set, the whole idea is that they would be doing the kind of jobs that would be snobbed over by other workers, it should in theory benefit everyone as it is better than no fixed income. Even the training provided to perhaps become a part-time gardai would benifit society and improve a CV.

What kind of job would you feel would work on a large scale?

I would be extremely hesitant to give someone Gardai powers (even part time) for no other reason than they were unemployed and had passed a course knowing they needed to do so to continue getting welfare.

brosps

Obviously the people on the dole are hating on me right now, but social welfare is one of our top 3 tax paid sectors, if not our highest spending. The taxes reduced by dole workers actually creating revenue would be a great boost to the economy and free up a lot of money.

In regards to some comment up above the only one that i see as being confusing is when i mentioned that they might not be contributing in the near future, what i meant is that incase you didnt notice we are in this ridiculously recurring recession right now and it's going to be getting increasingly worse. I didn't mean that dole workers arnt going to be looking for work I'm saying that right now it's just not out there.

Yeah mabey you're right about the gardai thing (havnt thought this out fully just on the top of my head), but surley a filing assistant for maintance in a hospital or gardai station would increase productivity and reduce costs.

In regards to social welfare being a safety net. Work would still be available, the safety net would still be there, it just wouldn't be free.

bikki

kickoutthejams wrote: »

What kind of job would you feel would work on a large scale?

I would be extremely hesitant to give someone Gardai powers (even part time) for no other reason than they were unemployed and had passed a course knowing they needed to do so to continue getting welfare.

Id be extremely hesitant to give some Gardai powers.

I find it funny some people on here think that because ur on the dole ur either scum and a drain on society or a criminal who's swindling the system.

cornbb

brosps wrote: »

(havnt thought this out fully just on the top of my head)

Clearly not. I think you should do some serious thinking.

Do you think you should be doing some community work in order to cover the cost of your college fees?

brosps

Never said they were a leech on resources, just that this would be a better use of said resources.

I'm not too sure about doing community service for college, perhaps if i wasnt going to college to become a skilled member of the workforce. (trying not to sound like a d*ickhead when i say this but failing)

ShooterSF

Ok I just don't get your idea. I'm assuming you want people on the dole to become semi-jobseekers semi-public emplyed? You realise you have to pay atleast minimum wage?
Fair enough if you give them 3 days of "community service" for the dole and paid €207.60 (based on minimum wage) instead of jobseeker's benefit how do you suggest this will save money? The tax payer is still going to pay them, letting people go from public jobs to replace them with dole-workers would just add them to this list and replacing private jobs would put more people into the public sector (paying dole-workers and the new dole claimers that lost their job to your system)

Can you explain how you'd be saving money?

cornbb

brosps wrote: »

I'm not too sure about doing community service for college, perhaps if i wasnt going to college to become a skilled member of the workforce. (trying not to sound like a d*ickhead when i say this but failing)

I have a first class hons Masters degree and I ended up on the dole, don't think it'll never happen to you.

brosps

What i meant by saving tax euros is that it would certainly stop any kind of leakages and dole scammers. People with jobs that have cash in hand would find it pretty much physically impossible to take advantage of the system which is appereantly quite a problem.

It would also increase the set of skills our potential work force would have and attract foreign companys but w/e

ShooterSF

brosps wrote: »

I was reading some of the threads on AH and i just thought how incredibly illogical the dole is, espicially in a time of recession wasting tax payers money on people who don't have a chance of contributing back to society in the near future just seems so infuriating.

Why don't dole recievers at least have mandatory community service, or contribute to a public sector. If i were on the dole [which i might look into soon lol l:> ] I would find it perceftly acceptable for tax payers to withhold my "earnings" unless I took a mandatory class in domestic economics, or worked a part-time shift down the local gardai station.

I don't pay tax as I'm a leeching student but I hate the fact that there is this huge hole in state spending that could potentially bring a return but won't.

Silly question I suppose but am I being a scroungry right-wing capatilist-head or does anyone else agree with me ?

brosps wrote: »

What i meant by saving tax euros is that it would certainly stop any kind of leakages and dole scammers. People with jobs that have cash in hand would find it pretty much physically impossible to take advantage of the system which is appereantly quite a problem.

It would also increase the set of skills our potential work force would have and attract foreign companys but w/e

Well you might need to be a bit clearer in your original post if it's scammers you have an issue with. You seem to have grouped everyone into one.
I dont think its the way to resolve such issues.

Quazzie

kickoutthejams wrote: »

What kind of job would you feel would work on a large scale?

Well nearly every road near me is littered with potholes. Why not have the long term dole recipients out doing that. There is no argument that they are taking jobs because at the moment the council don't have the resources to do it. If we are already paying them then they should earn it. Working full time isn't really an option but working a minimum time frame, like say 20 hours a week is.

Fair enough the dole is like an insurance, and its one we all appreciate it, and hope we never have to use it. But being on the dole for over 3 months means that re-employment is looking less likely. So why not have them out there working short term low skill contracts, or have them attending training courses. One example would be blocklayers that are currently on the dole should be made attend a course that educated them about insulation installation, and other green initiatives that might actually help them when they get back to regular employment.

There is nearly no one out there that couldn't learn more to make them more employable.

cornnb if it takes you all week to type some cv's then I'd be practicing my typing more.

brosps

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzFQl9s5KAE

watch this and you might become a slight less ignorant

Guy:Incognito

javaboy wrote: »

e.g If each dole recipient picked up 3 or 4 pieces of litter a day, that would be a million pieces of rubbish gone in a day.

Or if people were'nt knackers in the first place there wouldnt be rubbish to pick up.:)

brosps wrote: »

True but what about the majority of taxpayers who never go on the dole?

Would you rather have no job? When I lose mine (which is looking likely) I'll gladly swap with you if you like.

Boston wrote: »

How is someone meant to find a job when they're spending their days working for the government.

There would be no problem givign them time off to attend interviews, providing they prove they didnt just head down the pub instead.

pipsqueak

The Govt should bring in the credit card system style of dole payments like the have in regions of Italy. When you get your dole you get credits on your card and you can go to shops and use your card to buy essentials like food, fuel etc.
I believe that there are plenty of children in Ireland today going without food, medicine even though their parents are receiving dole/childers allowance and squandering it on non essentials.

brosps

Stekelly wrote: »

Would you rather have no job? When I lose mine (which is looking likely) I'll gladly swap with you if you like.

I don't have a job...can't find one in fact, but i dont need the dole so i don't ask for it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzFQl9s5KAE

what pipsqueak said would also be a great alternative, the current system just isn't healthy for an economy at all, or an indvidual really.

Alessandra

I think you will find a very high proportion of those on the dole are not choosing it as a lifestyle.. There simply aren't the jobs out there.

However to a certain extent I agree that those who do not attempt to better their situation(ie serial scroungers) should be forced to contribute something back to society.

People who have just been made redundant on the other hand are finding it demoralising enough without being made to do community service to pay back what they have paid for through tax in the first place!

bikki

You mean butter vouchers.

Lets c, ive been working almost every day since i was 17 in the building game. Im 29 now so 12 years of paying tax, i think i was on 40% at one point also. And all u think im intitled to is Butter vouchers and picking up litter?

bikki

brosps wrote: »

I don't have a job...can't find one in fact, but i dont need the dole so i don't ask for it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzFQl9s5KAE

what pipsqueak said would also be a great alternative, the current system just isn't healthy for an economy at all, or an indvidual really.

And more fool u for not asking for it, u still get tax credits.

Jet Black

This could work.. but still would never happen.

Quazzie

heymcflyx wrote: »

This could work.. but still would never happen.

Seriously how can we start a campaign to get that put into action here?

Lockstep

Quazzie2002 wrote: »

Well nearly every road near me is littered with potholes. Why not have the long term dole recipients out doing that. There is no argument that they are taking jobs because at the moment the council don't have the resources to do it. If we are already paying them then they should earn it. Working full time isn't really an option but working a minimum time frame, like say 20 hours a week is.

And what happens to the road laying companies and their workers?

Quazzie2002 wrote: »

Fair enough the dole is like an insurance, and its one we all appreciate it, and hope we never have to use it. But being on the dole for over 3 months means that re-employment is looking less likely. So why not have them out there working short term low skill contracts, or have them attending training courses. One example would be blocklayers that are currently on the dole should be made attend a course that educated them about insulation installation, and other green initiatives that might actually help them when they get back to regular employment.

Again, we run the risk of undercutting those who the job as a profession.

Quazzie2002 wrote: »

There is nearly no one out there that couldn't learn more to make them more employable.

True, but education and work are two seperate things.

banshee_bones

brosps wrote: »

Obviously the people on the dole are hating on me right now

eh. YES

deadhead13

brosps wrote: »

I was reading some of the threads on AH and i just thought how incredibly illogical the dole is, espicially in a time of recession wasting tax payers money on people who don't have a chance of contributing back to society in the near future just seems so infuriating.

Why don't dole recievers at least have mandatory community service, or contribute to a public sector. If i were on the dole [which i might look into soon lol l:> ] I would find it perceftly acceptable for tax payers to withhold my "earnings" unless I took a mandatory class in domestic economics, or worked a part-time shift down the local gardai station.

I don't pay tax as I'm a leeching student but I hate the fact that there is this huge hole in state spending that could potentially bring a return but won't.

Silly question I suppose but am I being a scroungry right-wing capatilist-head or does anyone else agree with me ?

As you are a student, it might interest you to know, that it is expected that 70,000 graduates will be unemployed by the end of the year. But unlike the 80's emigration won't be an option. Come back to us after you have been out in the the worst labour market since the great depression and lets see if you are still spouting this garbage.

Quazzie

kickoutthejams wrote: »

And what happens to the road laying companies and their workers?

Well at the moment they are doing nothing about the roads so it won't affect them. They seem to have disappeared and when I rang the council reporting a road that is particularly bad I was told that there are no resources to fund the road improvements so they won't be doing anything about it.

kickoutthejams wrote: »

Again, we run the risk of undercutting those who the job as a profession.

Same as above. So many council jobs are doing nothing at the moment and I'm syre they'd only be too happy to have 150hrs of labour available per week in every village. btw thats only ten people working 15 hours a week labour so the 150hrs is actually severely low.

kickoutthejams wrote: »

True, but education and work are two seperate things.

Why not try to incorporate them both. There are so many jobs at the moment that require just labour and would involve teaching a new skill that simply can't be done, due to lack of funds. There are funds there but they are just put into the wrong areas. Paying someone who has been on the dole for a year is wrong on so many levels. That money, or that person can be used much better somewhere else

brosps

so many of you are so stupid, you deserve to be on the dole

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

mabey if youd spend less time trying to rationalize your leeching habits and more time actually working you might get a job, or mabey just realise that you arnt entitled to freebies

ejmaztec

Perhaps the OP, when he finishes college, would consider taking his place on a large treadmill that I am working on. This will ensure free electricity for all. It's going to be called Doletricity.









There will also be free spelling lessons.

Jet Black

brosps wrote: »

so many of you are so stupid, you deserve to be on the dole

Im not on the dole, I run the country.. First point accepted:D

bikki

brosps wrote: »

so many of you are so stupid, you deserve to be on the dole

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

mabey if youd spend less time trying to rationalize your leeching habits and more time actually working you might get a job, or mabey just realise that you arnt entitled to freebies

Well the fact that u have no job ur leeching off something? Also if ur not paying tax then why should u have a say in how its spent?

Jet Black

brosps wrote: »

so many of you are so stupid, you deserve to be on the dole

mabey if youd spend less time trying to rationalize your leeching habits and more time actually working you might get a job, or mabey just realise that you arnt entitled to freebies

Education is free? Well paid by the tax payers.