ESB Pay rise and no levy???

ejmaztec · 05-02-2009 02:45PM

KerranJast wrote: »

Lads why so negative? It's not the fault of the ESB workers that they're insulated from the shocking conditions of other private sector workers on the ground. We have to be positive about this situation and not polarise the population.

Give em the chair. He who lives by the sword etc...

loyatemu · 05-02-2009 03:49PM

Asa Obedient Door wrote: »

Chosen1 has it spot on. We had the cheapest electricity in Europe until we opened the market to other suppliers who said they couldn't do it for the existing ESB prices.

source for this? I find it hard to believe we had cheaper leccy than the likes of France with their huge nuclear generating capacity...

It is true - under the terms of the national pay agreement the ESB had to pay the increase as they are a profitable company.

Of course, the reason they are a profitable company is because they have no competition and set their own prices - they simply can't make a loss.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 05-02-2009 04:14PM

loyatemu wrote: »

source for this? I find it hard to believe we had cheaper leccy than the likes of France with their huge nuclear generating capacity...

It is true - under the terms of the national pay agreement the ESB had to pay the increase as they are a profitable company.

Of course, the reason they are a profitable company is because they have no competition and set their own prices - they simply can't make a loss.

You are obviously too young to remember back! It is undisputed that through the 80s we not only had the cheapest electricity in Ireland but Paddy Moriarty, then CE of ESB, gave a 5 year price freeze promise.
Through the 90s the price began to rise as the then Electricity Regulator got to grips with trying to encourage new participants in to the Irish market leading to the CER today and prices in excess of what ESB would actually like. Rememebr last year when the Chairman of ESB wanted to reduce prices but was prevented by the regulator?
Where do you get the no competition nonsense. Yes they have a single distribution network (imagine if every independent generator and supplier had their own wires crossing the country!) but generation is only 60% ESB and the Industrial and Commercial market is nearly all non-ESB supply companies. The domestic market is largely ESB but that's because the other suppliers don't want it as it is not economical for them.
It's great that they are profitable. Imagine the state of the infrastructure if ESB didn't make a profit? What complaints would there be if they made a loss and required state subsidy? We had enough of that with CIE and Bord na Mona for decades.They could make a loss if they don't achieve targets and efficiencies set by the CER but they do achieve them and good on them for doing so.
Care to comment on a 40-50% staff reduction in ESB in 10 years with a 125% increase in connections and network provision? More power to them!

RoundyMooney · 05-02-2009 06:11PM

You know your electricity market, Srameen.

Just to summarise a few points for the armchair brigade here who it seems cba educating themselves, or have given up trying.

-ESB is not a monopoly. ESB Networks (a seperate company who charges all suppliers equally, be they Airtricity, Bord Gais or whoever) is the Distribution System Operator, the yellow vans in the street in essence.

-ESB has reduced workforce since CCR in 1995, as Srameen has been quite patiently pointing out here over the last while, by over 50%, while more than doubling its activities. A necessary and quite proper state of affairs.

-Energy prices are set by the regulator, so blame him. ESB group has been campaigning of late for a reduction, as prices have been held artificially high, both to facilitate the open market (and attendant costs), and to entice other players into the market. I'm sure ESBCS would love a reduction in order to make life more difficult for its competitors, as would any business.

-ESB utility workers are among the lowest paid in Europe. Some (very few in reality) workers are on crazy money, but show me any large company where this is not so. When the tiger was roaring, the electrical trades were making double or treble what their counterparts in ESB were making. Let us not resort to begrudgery now, in tougher times.

-In real times, wage costs on an electricity bill amount to less than 10% of the total. It's left up to the reader whether a 3.5% increase in salaries has an influence on energy cost in keeping with the wailing and gnashing of teeth this has caused.

-The government and the social partners (including those Green idiots) had every opportunity in November to raise objections to this increase. None of them did so.

-ESB could not hold off on this 3.5% increase (and why should the board, when nobody asked it?) without being held in breach of the partnership agreement. Over 50 other profitable companies have already paid out, without any dissent whatsoever.

I trust this clarifies a few points. It should be noted too that I'm not speaking on behalf of ESB here.

token56 · 05-02-2009 07:02PM

The_Minister wrote: »

We need to seperate Eirgrid from the ESB asap, and smash their hold on the country.

Well to be fair they are completely seperate bodies already. Granted there is alot of inherent ties between them due to the nature of the work being done, alot of cooperation needs to take place.

What is needed is for the ownership of the transmission grid to be passed onto Eirgrid. This is the only logical choice really. However this is unlikely to happen since this is a major asset to the ESB and worth a considerable amount of money so its employees dont want it to simply be handed over. They will ask for alot of money is this is to happen.

DeirdreD · 05-02-2009 08:12PM

Joelle Weak Ledge wrote: »

In all fairness the ESB lads are out in all weather at any time of the year and all night at times keeping us warm and or TV's running so I wouldnt be so quick to question their wages.

I dont think the topic is in relation to the physcial work some members of ESB do ( and I state some- I know some who work in the customer care centre and they say it is a cushy number altogether) , i think it is whether the pay increase was justified at this time ( me thinks not)and whether they should also be applicable to the pension levy ( me thinks they should!!)

Donald-Duck · 05-02-2009 08:20PM

DeirdreD wrote: »

I dont think the topic is in relation to the physcial work some members of ESB do ( and I state some- I know some who work in the customer care centre and they say it is a cushy number altogether) , i think it is whether the pay increase was justified at this time ( me thinks not)and whether they should also be applicable to the pension levy ( me thinks they should!!)

Tell me why they should be applicable to the pension levy

RoundyMooney · 05-02-2009 09:39PM

Where is the customer care centre? I've never heard of it.

I'm not being facetious, although I could be...

Your posts smack of misinformed hand wringing sensationalist knee jerking, because you saw your latest bill and got a land.

Why should ESB staff, as those of a private company (that happens to have the government as a majority shareholder-and two subco's which are charged with managing the transmission and distribution network respectively*) who have always contributed to their own pensions, and have seen the fund lose value over this decade, as with many others, have to pay into a levy of public sector workers (which is in itself a whole other debate).

'Cos you got your bill and didn't like it, and have lapped up the meeja line that "them ESB fellahs are makin' a fortune, shur"?

As an aside, anecdotally we are seeing an exponential rise in complaints from the public about the "yellah vans" popping home for lunch, or perhaps parking on double yellows in the course of their duty. Sadly it seems this person is not the only one to buy into an anti ESB mindset.

Bear in mind that at the time of the last increase, ESB bunged €300m into the pot, to lessen the pain for customers!

*As opposed to Eircom, a private company in private hands with full on total control over the telecom network in this country. Perhaps you would prefer if ESB were the same and weren't putting a brass cent into network upgrades? ESB have and will invest over €9 billion in its network, culminating in 2010. On top of that €22 billion will be invested to make the company carbon neutral by 2035. ESB have consistently met efficiency targets and made a return to the exchequer year on year, and we're the bad guys???

Capt'n Midnight · 05-02-2009 09:42PM

chosen1 wrote:

Those who are criticizing them need to do their homework and see that it is not the ESB who are inflating the price of electricity. When they had a monopoly in the market years ago, electricity in Ireland was in fact one of the cheapest in Europe but when the supply was broken up to let in competition the regulator actually increased the cost of electricity to encourage competition into the market. ESB only has 40% or so of the market now so that argument about letting in eirtricity or who ever backfires.

A fine example of only having competition for the sake of it and not turning out in the idealistic free market dream way.

+1

we used to have the third cheapest electricity in EU , considering our market is only the size of Birmingham and most of the fuel was imported it says a lot. ( BTW also shows the hole in the nuclear argument if we had cheaper electricity than UK or France

)

Look how many foreign electricity providers have setup here since deregulation even with the much higher cost. It's like the M50 toll bridge ,does the same as before it's just more expensive

RoundyMooney · 05-02-2009 09:49PM

It's a double edged sword. The price was fixed for a few years, and successive ministers were afraid to tackle it.

At the time ESB as was was losing money, thanks mainly to an artificially low price, but also horrendous efficiencies in work practises and the like (looking back on it now, I remember some that worked like navvies, and some that wouldn't get out of bed for you. I also remember seven or eight different people being involved in a standard new connection, and five to a line truck, now it's two at a push for the connection, and most hoist/line vehicle drivers are solo). As a result, the network was left in a very sorry state by the start of the last decade (hence the need for such massive investment).

Now as you say the pendulum has swung too far the other way, and they're queuing up to get in. None of the providers want to deal with joe public though (he's too much hassle for them), they all want the big accounts.

DublinWriter · 05-02-2009 09:56PM

RoundyMooney wrote: »

Bear in mind that at the time of the last increase, ESB bunged €300m into the pot, to lessen the pain for customers!

Only after they tabled their usual annual increase and then realising, horror on horror, that they were actually awash with money in the first place.

And the average wage in ESB is €75K now?!? Oh please.

Electricity costs here are 20% higher than the rest of Europe on average.

ESB are part of the problem, not the solution. Open your eyes, look at all the multinationals literally fleeing the country due to high energy costs and drop the silo mentality.

RoundyMooney · 05-02-2009 10:07PM

Yes, you may write, going by your username (sensationally it would seem), but did you actually read any of my early posts?

ESB do not set the energy price-in fact they want to bring it down!

I firmly believe regulation is killing the country rather than saving it.

An increase was requested at a time when oil was triple the price it is now. We are reliant on imported energy which has sfa to do with what staff are paid. As I have already said, thats a tenner in the ton at the outside.

Mrmoe · 05-02-2009 10:17PM

I bet sparks will fly over this

Donald-Duck · 05-02-2009 10:20PM

RoundyMooney wrote: »

Yes, you may write, going by your username (sensationally it would seem), but did you actually read any of my early posts?

ESB do not set the energy price-in fact they want to bring it down!

I firmly believe regulation is killing the country rather than saving it.

An increase was requested at a time when oil was triple the price it is now. We are reliant on imported energy which has sfa to do with what staff are paid. As I have already said, thats a tenner in the ton at the outside.

You know the way every workplace/college has that stupid loud person that spouts off crap they heard their best friends dog said, well after hours is that person on boards.

DublinWriter · 05-02-2009 10:29PM

RoundyMooney wrote: »

Yes, you may write, going by your username (sensationally it would seem), but did you actually read any of my early posts?

Er, no, I usually rely on the media and press releases for my facts and not some random apologist I come across on d'Internet.

Anyways, yes, let's avoid the flame-fest right now. ESB are wonderful, any organisation that can look after it's own in this day and age is to be applauded.

holly1 · 05-02-2009 10:32PM

SO SELFISH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
TAKE TAKE TAKE.

Donald-Duck · 05-02-2009 10:35PM

DublinWriter wrote: »

Er, no, I usually rely on the media and press releases for my facts and not some random apologist I come across on d'Internet.

Anyways, yes, let's avoid the flame-fest right now. ESB are wonderful, any organisation that can look after it's own in this day and age is to be applauded.

Which media? I've noticed all media outlets are in fact emphasising the fact that it was part of the social partners scheme

mad m · 05-02-2009 11:54PM

Can someone explain why the ESB are not subject to the pension levy?

ixoy · 06-02-2009 01:07AM

mad m wrote: »

Can someone explain why the ESB are not subject to the pension levy?

The pension levy is for members of the public and civil service, i.e. those paid for by the government and its subsidiary bodies. The ESB is not such a body, no more than Eircom is. I don't believe it affects the likes of An Post either for example.

thebman · 06-02-2009 09:59AM

DublinWriter wrote: »

Only after they tabled their usual annual increase and then realising, horror on horror, that they were actually awash with money in the first place.

And the average wage in ESB is €75K now?!? Oh please.

Electricity costs here are 20% higher than the rest of Europe on average.

ESB are part of the problem, not the solution. Open your eyes, look at all the multinationals literally fleeing the country due to high energy costs and drop the silo mentality.

And who sets the price of electricity?

Its like talking to a wall. Sure they may be overpaid (don't know if they are, thats the average wage) but that misses the point.

The company is still making massive profits despite this because of the overinflated price and the price is set by the regulator.

Reduce the price so they aren't making insane profits then talk about wages FFS!

RoundyMooney · 06-02-2009 04:49PM

Indeed.

ejmaztec · 06-02-2009 05:07PM

Well it's obvious that the ESB guys are so riddled with guilt, that they will donate their rises to the poor feckers whose bank accounts are being sucked clean by the giant A+ rated ESB vacuum cleaner.

RoundyMooney · 06-02-2009 10:12PM

We already did, to the tune of €300 million (not including the billions in infrastructural investment). Bear in mind, employees are shareholders in the company too.

Obviously that doesn't suit the simplistic black and white view of some people.

ESB Pay rise and no levy???

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