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Mormons (or church of latter-day saints)

1356

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  • #62
    BrianCalgary
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭BrianCalgary


    MatthewVII wrote: »
    Why is your brand of Jesus the only one worth accepting? It seems to me that the differences between Mormon Jesus and Christian Jesus are minimal and superficial, whereas his overall message (the important bit) is pretty much the same.

    They are not minimal and superficial differences, they are critical.
    Christians understand the nature of God as given by God in the Bible. Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all God. Jesus was the creator, He is one with God. Jesus is 'God with us', as God came from Heaven to dwell amongst us.

    God is eternal, having no beginning and no end.

    The Mormon God was a man who lived on another planet, acheived godhood and started his own planet. Jesus was his created son who sacrificed himself for the sins of mankind.

    As for salvation the Bible is quite clear that we are saved by faith and not by works.

    Mormon teaching is that one is saved by works.


  • #63
    Rev Hellfire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,346 ✭✭✭Rev Hellfire


    BrianCalgary wrote: »
    Have an examination of the book of Mormon, it is pretty well self explanatory.

    So it doesn't come down to a he says, she says.
    tbh I don't want to go down the well worn road of nit-picking of either books.

    The simple fact is if be best you can do to disprove the validity of their faith is to reference your own holy book, then the sauce for the goose is good for the gander and the same argument can equally be applied to you.

    Making it a he says, she says.

    Perhaps you can enlighten us without referencing either book how the Christian faith is more valid than the Mormon faith ? Including how the criticism of one is not applicable to the other.

    I for one would be genuinely interested.


  • #64
    MatthewVII
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 825 ✭✭✭MatthewVII


    BrianCalgary wrote: »
    They are not minimal and superficial differences, they are critical.
    Christians understand the nature of God as given by God in the Bible. Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all God. Jesus was the creator, He is one with God. Jesus is 'God with us', as God came from Heaven to dwell amongst us.

    So you believe that people who believe in a Mormon Jesus will not be saved?

    BrianCalgary wrote:
    Jesus was his created son who sacrificed himself for the sins of mankind.

    What an awfully deviant thing to believe. Why it's completely different from Christianity.

    BrianCalgary wrote:
    As for salvation the Bible is quite clear that we are saved by faith and not by works.

    Mormon teaching is that one is saved by works.

    I for one think that this is a much more sane and sensible reason to reward people. What's the point in having faith unless it manifests itself in your deeds and you make the world a better place for others in a practical way?


  • #65
    BrianCalgary
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭BrianCalgary


    Rev Hellfire wrote: »
    The simple fact is if be best you can do to disprove the validity of their faith is to reference your own holy book, then the sauce for the goose is good for the gander and the same argument can equally be applied to you.

    And this statement is wrong making your conclusion false.

    The events of the NT and the OT (post flood) have all been shown to be historically correct.

    The Book of Mormon talks of a civilisation that never existed.


  • #66
    BrianCalgary
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭BrianCalgary


    MatthewVII wrote: »
    So you believe that people who believe in a Mormon Jesus will not be saved?
    The Mormon Jesus is not the real Jesus, they don't know Jesus.

    It woul dbe like someone saying, 'I know Briancalgary', lives in Ireland hates soccer and is an Ahtheist'. It is obvious that person has no idea who I am, because all three statements they make are wrong.
    MatthewVII wrote: »
    What an awfully deviant thing to believe. Why it's completely different from Christianity.

    Huh????

    MatthewVII wrote: »
    I for one think that this is a much more sane and sensible reason to reward people. What's the point in having faith unless it manifests itself in your deeds and you make the world a better place for others in a practical way?

    I agree that is why a 'faith without works is dead', But it is not the works that get you into a relationship with God, it is faith.


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  • #67
    Skadi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 115 ✭✭Skadi


    BrianCalgary wrote: »
    And this statement is wrong making your conclusion false.

    The events of the NT and the OT (post flood) have all been shown to be historically correct.

    The Book of Mormon talks of a civilisation that never existed.

    Not having found proof that the civilisation existed is not evidence enough to state that it didn't exist. The mormons were ridiculed for saying in the books that horses existed in america when it was thought that the spanish people introduced the horse, but evidence later proved that horses existed before this time.


  • #68
    Rev Hellfire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,346 ✭✭✭Rev Hellfire


    BrianCalgary wrote: »
    And this statement is wrong making your conclusion false.

    The events of the NT and the OT (post flood) have all been shown to be historically correct.

    The Book of Mormon talks of a civilisation that never existed.
    I'll take that to be a no then. Disappointed, but not surprised.


  • #69
    MatthewVII
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 825 ✭✭✭MatthewVII


    BrianCalgary wrote: »
    The Mormon Jesus is not the real Jesus, they don't know Jesus.

    It woul dbe like someone saying, 'I know Briancalgary', lives in Ireland hates soccer and is an Ahtheist'. It is obvious that person has no idea who I am, because all three statements they make are wrong.


    Except that Mormons don't think things like Jesus killed people to be absolved of his own sins, or that Jesus was the uncle of God. Using your BrianCalgary analogy, they would rather say 'I know BrianCalgary - he likes soccer and is a vehement Catholic. I believe he lives in Ireland because this biography told me so", much like a catholic would say the same about Jesus - the biography that they read claimed a few different things about the finer details about where he was from etc. As far as I can see from my (admittedly only small reading of Book of Mormon) point of view, both Jesus's had pretty much the same message. I just don't see why you can't accept that you both try to be saved by belief in Jesus, both follow the same principles and are both servile to a benevolent Son of God, instead of completely dismissing Mormons as perpetrators of falsehoods.


    BrianCalgary wrote:
    I agree that is why a 'faith without works is dead', But it is not the works that get you into a relationship with God, it is faith.

    I'm glad to hear God is so easy to please. Nice of him to effectively exclude common decent people who don't believe in him.


  • #70
    BrianCalgary
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭BrianCalgary


    Skadi wrote: »
    Not having found proof that the civilisation existed is not evidence enough to state that it didn't exist. The mormons were ridiculed for saying in the books that horses existed in america when it was thought that the spanish people introduced the horse, but evidence later proved that horses existed before this time.

    Oh Skadi, there is evidence in Ireland for people that lived over 2,000 years ago.

    The size and the scope of the civilisation claimed in the Book of Mormon would have buildings and cities the size of Rome.

    Yet not a shred of evidence that they actually existed.


  • #71
    BrianCalgary
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭BrianCalgary


    Rev Hellfire wrote: »
    I'll take that to be a no then. Disappointed, but not surprised.

    And your absolute refusal to recognise anything Christian makes me convinced that you are nothing but a troll.

    Disappointed but not surprised.


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  • #72
    Skadi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 115 ✭✭Skadi


    BrianCalgary wrote: »
    Oh Skadi, there is evidence in Ireland for people that lived over 2,000 years ago.

    The size and the scope of the civilisation claimed in the Book of Mormon would have buildings and cities the size of Rome.

    Yet not a shred of evidence that they actually existed.

    Yet in the book of mormon the end was destruction. The wicked raged I can't remember exactly but maybe they burned the cities and tore down the buildings. The last leader had to hide in a cave when he wrote his final words on the gold plates and then buried them to be found later.


  • #73
    BrianCalgary
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭BrianCalgary


    MatthewVII wrote: »
    Except that Mormons don't think things like Jesus killed people to be absolved of his own sins, or that Jesus was the uncle of God.
    What are you talking about????
    MatthewVII wrote: »
    Using your BrianCalgary analogy, they would rather say 'I know BrianCalgary - he likes soccer and is a vehement Catholic. I believe he lives in Ireland because this biography told me so",
    And you obviously dont know me either. 2 of 3 wrong.
    MatthewVII wrote: »
    much like a catholic would say the same about Jesus - the biography that they read claimed a few different things about the finer details about where he was from etc. As far as I can see from my (admittedly only small reading of Book of Mormon) point of view, both Jesus's had pretty much the same message. I just don't see why you can't accept that you both try to be saved by belief in Jesus, both follow the same principles and are both servile to a benevolent Son of God, instead of completely dismissing Mormons as perpetrators of falsehoods.
    The message was the same but the understanding of who He is is far different.
    Many have a similar message to Jesus' yet they aren't Jesus. Mormons don't know Him.



    MatthewVII wrote: »
    I'm glad to hear God is so easy to please. Nice of him to effectively exclude common decent people who don't believe in him.
    Until this statement I thought that your were genuinely interested.:(


  • #74
    Fanny Cradock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,240 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    BrianCalgary wrote: »
    And your absolute refusal to recognise anything Christian makes me convinced that you are nothing but a troll.

    Disappointed but not surprised.

    In fairness, and I admit that I haven't been paying too much attention to this debate, the good Rev is normally one of the more even-handed posters to visit the forum.

    Nevertheless, he's banned for a week.

    :pac:


  • #75
    Rev Hellfire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,346 ✭✭✭Rev Hellfire


    BrianCalgary wrote: »
    And your absolute refusal to recognise anything Christian makes me convinced that you are nothing but a troll.

    Disappointed but not surprised.

    I've simply asked you to validate your faith without reference to the bible. The fact that you seem unable to do so hardly makes me a troll. Rather it simply makes you an ineffective spokesperson for Christianity.


  • #76
    BrianCalgary
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭BrianCalgary


    Rev Hellfire wrote: »
    I've simply asked you to validate your faith without reference to the bible. The fact that you seem unable to do so hardly makes me a troll. Rather it simply makes you an ineffective spokesperson for Christianity.

    No Rev the question you have asked has been talked about on numerous occasions on these boards by people such as myself, PDN, Excelsior, Jakkass amongst others.

    You have been on these boards long enough to have read them and gain insight (which obviously you haven't).

    And to ask it to be done without using teh Bible is an absolute ludicrous request. 'Prove evolution to me without using fossils' is as ludicrous a request.


  • #77
    MatthewVII
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 825 ✭✭✭MatthewVII


    BrianCalgary wrote: »
    What are you talking about????

    What I am saying is that the Mormons believe that Jesus is the son of God who sacrificed himself for the sins of mankind. He taught followers to be good people, do good deeds and follow him etc. That surely makes him pretty much equal to any Christian model of Jesus. All that's different are the physical details which are of little consequence when the true message is in the metaphysical.
    BrianCalgary wrote:
    And you obviously dont know me either. 2 of 3 wrong.

    Maybe it's because I've never met you and never talked to you apart from on an internet thread?
    BrianCalgary wrote:
    The message was the same but the understanding of who He is is far different.
    Many have a similar message to Jesus' yet they aren't Jesus. Mormons don't know Him.

    They could equally argue that you don't know the real Jesus either. Both of you would be at a loss to prove the validity of your standpoints.

    BrianCalgary wrote:
    Until this statement I thought that your were genuinely interested.:(

    Sorry to disappoint, that particular tidbit was what started me down the road to enlightenment when I was a young christian.


  • #78
    BrianCalgary
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭BrianCalgary


    MatthewVII wrote: »
    What I am saying is that the Mormons believe that Jesus is the son of God who sacrificed himself for the sins of mankind. He taught followers to be good people, do good deeds and follow him etc. That surely makes him pretty much equal to any Christian model of Jesus. All that's different are the physical details which are of little consequence when the true message is in the metaphysical..
    It goes beyond just Jesus. He is much more than just the Son of God. He is God. He is the creator. God was not just another man who obtained godhood. Mormons believe that everyone can obtain godhood.

    MatthewVII wrote: »
    Maybe it's because I've never met you and never talked to you apart from on an internet thread?.

    And that's fine, I didn't expect you to know because we have just met. Mormons also don't know Jesus yet they are looking in the wrong places to find Him. On this board you could get to know me or anyone wlse if you wished.

    As an example, if you wished to get to know me you could find some of me on teh board. If you wanted to get to know me better you could PM me. You wouldn't PM PDN to get to know me.

    In order to get to know God and Jesus you have to read the Bible as it is God's word to mankind. The book of Mormon is not God's word.
    MatthewVII wrote: »
    They could equally argue that you don't know the real Jesus either. Both of you would be at a loss to prove the validity of your standpoints..

    Not really, we can start at the validity of the books we use as authority.

    MatthewVII wrote: »
    Sorry to disappoint, that particular tidbit was what started me down the road to enlightenment when I was a young christian.
    Define what enlightenment is to you?:)


  • #79
    Fanny Cradock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,240 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    BTW, just to clear up any confusion, the Rev isn't banned. That was just a joke. And a hilarious one at that!

    (Apologies, Rev Hellfire)


  • #80
    Rev Hellfire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,346 ✭✭✭Rev Hellfire


    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    BTW, just to clear up any confusion, the Rev isn't banned. That was just a joke. And a hilarious one at that!

    (Apologies, Rev Hellfire)

    I shall bind my time... Next time the advantage will be mine...*cue manic laughter*


  • #81
    Fanny Cradock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,240 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    Oh my!

    judgment_day_terror.jpg


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  • #82
    MatthewVII
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 825 ✭✭✭MatthewVII


    BrianCalgary wrote: »
    Define what enlightenment is to you?:)

    Accepting life for what it logically is rather than what someone tells me it is.


  • #83
    Fanny Cradock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,240 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    MatthewVII wrote: »
    Accepting life for what it logically is rather than what someone tells me it is.

    There is very little substance in that.


  • #84
    Flamed Diving
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,609 ✭✭✭Flamed Diving


    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    There is very little substance in that.

    You are not making sense.


  • #85
    MatthewVII
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 825 ✭✭✭MatthewVII


    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    There is very little substance in that.

    Apologies for whatever you took from that, I simply meant that I thought I could rely better on what I myself thought about life and the human condition than Christianity, which I found vague and contrary to what seemed right to me.

    Logic =/= Bible

    One really has to pick one or the other, or somehow convince onesself that the bible is logical.


  • #86
    pts
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 576 ✭✭✭pts


    BrianCalgary wrote: »
    No Rev the question you have asked has been talked about on numerous occasions on these boards by people such as myself, PDN, Excelsior, Jakkass amongst others.

    You have been on these boards long enough to have read them and gain insight (which obviously you haven't).

    And to ask it to be done without using teh Bible is an absolute ludicrous request. 'Prove evolution to me without using fossils' is as ludicrous a request.
    I'm kind of new to these parts. As it seems like a reasonable request I was wondering if you could point me in the general direction where these questions have been answered.
    In regards to evolution I think that nothing can be proven but areas such as dna, the evolution of bacteria etc seem to point to that the theory of evolution is a good model.


  • #87
    BrianCalgary
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭BrianCalgary


    pts wrote: »
    I'm kind of new to these parts. As it seems like a reasonable request I was wondering if you could point me in the general direction where these questions have been answered.
    In regards to evolution I think that nothing can be proven but areas such as dna, the evolution of bacteria etc seem to point to that the theory of evolution is a good model.

    Welcome pts, those questions get answered on many threads and sometimes it becomes a thread unto its own.

    My suggestion woul dbe to open a thread and ask the question. Doing it here would I think be off topic as this thread is a comparison of Mormon and Christian beliefs.

    Also with regard to evolution there is a monstrous thread on that topic which I would direct you to.


  • #88
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    BrianCalgary wrote: »
    The events of the NT and the OT (post flood) have all been shown to be historically correct. .

    emmmmm....no? Much of the NT is low key, and thus unlikely to be decided either way. Were it more on the city blasting, we'd have a far better handle on it. The OT mixes fact and fiction quite freely however, and provably so.


  • #89
    Húrin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,045 ✭✭✭Húrin


    MatthewVII wrote: »
    I for one think that this is a much more sane and sensible reason to reward people. What's the point in having faith unless it manifests itself in your deeds and you make the world a better place for others in a practical way?
    Aren't atheists constantly criticising the perceived carrot-and-stick model of righteous behaviour that they think Christianity preaches? (it isn't true, but that doesn't stop them)

    Now why are you calling it sane and sensible?
    Rev Hellfire wrote: »
    tbh I don't want to go down the well worn road of nit-picking of either books.

    The simple fact is if be best you can do to disprove the validity of their faith is to reference your own holy book, then the sauce for the goose is good for the gander and the same argument can equally be applied to you.

    Making it a he says, she says.

    Perhaps you can enlighten us without referencing either book how the Christian faith is more valid than the Mormon faith ? Including how the criticism of one is not applicable to the other.

    I for one would be genuinely interested.
    I think you mistunderstand Mormonism. That religion holds both the Bible and the Book of Mormon as divinely inspired. If one can point out how the Bible refutes contradicts the book of Mormon, one can question the latter's validity.


  • #90
    BrianCalgary
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭BrianCalgary


    Nodin wrote: »
    emmmmm....no? Much of the NT is low key, and thus unlikely to be decided either way. Were it more on the city blasting, we'd have a far better handle on it. The OT mixes fact and fiction quite freely however, and provably so.

    Actually not. Anything past the flood, or Genesis 15 has been shown to be historically accurate. Archaelogy supports the accounts.

    The NT does mention places and names and all have been shown to be accurate.


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  • #91
    Rev Hellfire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,346 ✭✭✭Rev Hellfire


    Húrin wrote: »
    I think you misunderstand Mormonism. That religion holds both the Bible and the Book of Mormon as divinely inspired. If one can point out how the Bible refutes contradicts the book of Mormon, one can question the latter's validity.
    There's a significant difference between something been divinely inspired and something been an accurate historical record.

    Now I'm not going to say I've read the book of Mormon and I'll accept your point that by referencing the bible and finding discrepancies between it and the Mormons book you can discredit it. But equally you could do that within the bible itself, perhaps we should remove parts of the new testament which deviate from the old testament?

    I just find it a bit rich that there's a sniggering *knudge knudge* you see what they believe attitude here to the moron beliefs. Christians rightly ask that their beliefs are respected I don't see any reason why morons should not be allowed the same curtsey.

    I'll be honest I don't put much store in the historical accuracy of the bible, simply for the obvious reason that I would expect a story written at a particular point in time to reference significant events present and in the near past of its authoring.

    Its no different to me taking a thriller novel written 10 years ago and attempting to argue that the events in it are accurate because it contains verifiable references to historical events from that 10-15 years ago.

    It doesn't make the bible any more or less valid in my view.


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