Mormons (or church of latter-day saints)

philologos · 01-02-2009 04:41PM

Yes, however we do know some things about the Christian message:

1) Many scholars are agreed that a man called Jesus of Nazareth existed.
2) Many scholars are agreed that Paul of Tarsus existed.
3) We can confirm that the spread of Christianity did occur through Europe, and we have historical documents which attest to this.
4) We can also confirm the existence of Christians in the Middle East by their continued existence, but also because of the Aramaic texts that we have.
5) We can confirm that there was a Jewish nation in Biblical Israel.
6) We have copies of the Biblical text to translate from and to study.

You seem to take a very fideist approach to faith, i.e just dive in, the leap to faith and so on, however there is a rationalist view that faith and reason should be taken by the same token in Scripture. We are meant to discern certain things about the way the world is. You say that you do not follow blindly, but isn't that what fideism is?

I follow Christianity because I honestly believe it to be true.

As for the golden plates, that's still not good enough though. Where are they, and why can't manuscripts be made from the original language to allow scholars to take a serious look at it? I don't think it's fair to say that other Christians would want to destroy the truth if they are indeed truly seeking it in their heart.

I mean this with no offence, but I just can't understand how this works. I'd love it if you could explain this to me.

Húrin · 01-02-2009 05:53PM

Flamed Diving wrote: »

"8 in flaming fire taking vengeance"

That is the loving, peaceful God, right?

Are you derailing your own thread?

Nodin · 01-02-2009 06:49PM

Rookie72 wrote: »

receptive for how long? How many intelligent men/women have sought the same thing, and the only way one can ever truly be receptive is by the witness of the Hold Spirit. Which can and will come when the truth is borne withness of.

Either a lost tribe of Israel ended up in the US, or it didn't. Its a specific claim, which refers to the physical world, not the supernatural.

Flamed Diving · 01-02-2009 07:43PM

Húrin wrote: »

Are you derailing your own thread?

Trying my best!

MatthewVII · 01-02-2009 08:15PM

Jakkass wrote: »

If one could show me DNA evidence of Semitic tribes living on the American continent, I would be actually quite receptive of it.

I find it somewhat disturbing that you start turning to science to disprove a rival religion when one shows up when your own is impenetrable to it. The points you raise about Jesus's likelihood as really existing giving your faith strength is very strange to me. You throw yourself into believing an incredible amount of fantastical things with no proof other than the fact that someone with his name probably lived. You challenge someone from the Church of Latter Day Saints because he believes similarly supernatural things but without the flimsy support of existence of semitic tribes in america. I say this is no more an unacceptable leap of faith than going from "someone called Jesus once lived" to "someone called Jesus, who is also God, who is also God's son, came down from heaven, performed miracles and was raised from the dead"

philologos · 01-02-2009 08:24PM

I'm not "turning" to science, you act as if I haven't considered anything that has come out of the scientific community before. I'm using the product of mathematical and computer science to even write this message. As for rejecting science on disproving the divinity of Christ, there isn't anything in modern science that actually refutes it. I'm just curious about this. If there was DNA to suggest this, then it could be an interesting thing to spur on further discussions about how Mormonism could be true. Am I not allowed to question another? Or is that right reserved for atheists?

Fanny Cradock · 01-02-2009 08:28PM

Jakkass wrote: »

Or is that right reserved for atheists?

I would suggest an 'Atheist only' thread for that!

MatthewVII · 01-02-2009 08:34PM

Jakkass wrote: »

I'm not "turning" to science, you act as if I haven't considered anything that has come out of the scientific community before.

You did a good job of refusing to consider evolution on the thread over on A+A. It seems you accept science as long as it doesn't contradict your religion. To do this is not to accept science at all.

I just don't see how you can call Rookie72's views fideistic without acknowledging the blatant fideism in your own religion.

Húrin · 01-02-2009 08:38PM

MatthewVII wrote: »

I find it somewhat disturbing that you start turning to science to disprove a rival religion when one shows up when your own is impenetrable to it.

Jakkass is turning to science to disprove the falsifiable claims made by Mormonism. Christianity's falsifiable claims should and have been subject to testing. Examples include the idea that the earth was created a few thousand years ago. Now that we know it is much older than that, only a fringe of Christians do not accept it as fact.

The points you raise about Jesus's likelihood as really existing giving your faith strength is very strange to me. You throw yourself into believing an incredible amount of fantastical things with no proof other than the fact that someone with his name probably lived.

In fairness, you don't know that Jakkass does not have any evidence (proof exists only in maths) for his "fantastical" beliefs about Jesus.

Jesus' existence is a falsifiable natural claim. It has not been disproven. If it had been disproven, Christianity would be untenable.

You challenge someone from the Church of Latter Day Saints because he believes similarly supernatural things but without the flimsy support of existence of semitic tribes in america.

Jakkass challenged that claim on scientific grounds because it is not a supernatural claim.

I say this is no more an unacceptable leap of faith than going from "someone called Jesus once lived" to "someone called Jesus, who is also God, who is also God's son, came down from heaven, performed miracles and was raised from the dead"

But none of these hypotheses are falsifiable, with the possible exception of the latter. The resurrection has not been disproven. If it was, Christians would have to admit that the Jews were right all along!

Why don't Christians have the right to subject beliefs, including their own, to scientific testing? Atheists did not even invent the scientific method.

philologos · 01-02-2009 08:39PM

MatthewVII wrote: »

You did a good job of refusing to consider evolution on the thread over on A+A. It seems you accept science as long as it doesn't contradict your religion. To do this is not to accept science at all.

Are you trying to be obtuse? Did you even read the thread?

I said I believed in theistic evolution, I in no place in that thread denied evolution, I also in no place in that thread refused to consider evolution. I don't believe that evolution was an unguided process, in a similar fashion many other Christians believe that God guided evolution. I was asking questions throughout the whole thread to seek an atheists understanding of the subject. Seriously go back and read the entire thread and then comment.

MatthewVII wrote: »

I just don't see how you can call Rookie72's views fideistic without acknowledging the blatant fideism in your own religion.

See above.

MatthewVII · 01-02-2009 08:46PM

Húrin wrote: »

Jakkass is turning to science to disprove the falsifiable claims made by Mormonism. Christianity's falsifiable claims should and have been subject to testing. Examples include the idea that the earth was created a few thousand years ago. Now that we know it is much older than that, only a fringe of Christians do not accept it as fact.

In fairness, you don't know that Jakkass does not have any evidence (proof exists only in maths) for his "fantastical" beliefs about Jesus.

Jesus' existence is a falsifiable natural claim. It has not been disproven. If it had been disproven, Christianity would be untenable.

Jakkass challenged that claim on scientific grounds because it is not a supernatural claim.

But none of these hypotheses are falsifiable, with the possible exception of the latter. The resurrection has not been disproven. If it was, Christians would have to admit that the Jews were right all along!

Why don't Christians have the right to subject beliefs, including their own, to scientific testing? Atheists did not even invent the scientific method.

I just don't see the relevance of the falsifiability of minor things (like whether or not there was a real person called Jesus, without any record of him being special in any way) compared to the leaps of faith needed to believe the important parts of religion (whether he was the son of god, died for sins etc). Are the minor details really important?

All I'm saying is that squabbling over minor shreds of evidence is rather pointless, since the faith needed to accept the supernatural aspects of any religious figure far outweighs any proof that can be gleaned

MatthewVII · 01-02-2009 08:55PM

Jakkass wrote: »

I said I believed in theistic evolution, I in no place in that thread denied evolution, I also in no place in that thread refused to consider evolution. I don't believe that evolution was an unguided process, in a similar fashion many other Christians believe that God guided evolution.

To believe in "guided" evolution is to deny science. Evolution is incompatible with the idea of a designer or a force behind change, it is only compatible with natural selection. That is why I believe you are turning a blind eye to science, because you are trying to find god in a model which forcibly excludes him.

philologos · 01-02-2009 08:58PM

You're clutching at straws here Matthew. There's nothing inherently that says that evolution cannot be guided by a higher power. I found it interesting that you think that questioning to find out more about the science behind evolution is somehow a denial of science? This just shows that you are closed minded and unwilling to actually help people grow in understanding which is actually what I was intending to do. By the time I had gone into that thread trolling was basically starting to begin, so I thought why not ask a few questions. You consider asking questions the equivalent of denying evolution. I find that to be quite odd, and is infact the objection that many atheists have to religious societies, not allowing their questions to be heard.

Flamed Diving · 01-02-2009 09:00PM

Húrin wrote: »

In fairness, you don't know that Jakkass does not have any evidence (proof exists only in maths) for his "fantastical" beliefs about Jesus.

Jesus' existence is a falsifiable natural claim. It has not been disproven. If it had been disproven, Christianity would be untenable.

So Jesus can never be disproven, and neither can his visit to America and all the other claims.

Flamed Diving · 01-02-2009 09:02PM

Jakkass wrote: »

There's nothing inherently that says that evolution cannot be guided by a higher power.

Ok, this is for the 'you know what' thread, but you know this is nonsense. Even if someone badly reads a book on evolution would know this.

MatthewVII · 01-02-2009 09:28PM

Jakkass wrote: »

I found it interesting that you think that questioning to find out more about the science behind evolution is somehow a denial of science? This just shows that you are closed minded and unwilling to actually help people grow in understanding which is actually what I was intending to do.

I guess then I misunderstood you. What it seemed to be was you refusing to accept natural selection even though it explains everything about how species change over time in an incredibly simple and easy to understand way. What your continued battle seemed to be was a desire to find god in something in which god is not necessary.

For what it's worth, I don't think that constantly choosing to believe that god guides evolution when there is no evidence for this is trying to grow in understanding. I think it's conjecture without reason or need.

Blessings to you this night

philologos · 01-02-2009 09:44PM

MatthewVII wrote: »

I guess then I misunderstood you. What it seemed to be was you refusing to accept natural selection even though it explains everything about how species change over time in an incredibly simple and easy to understand way. What your continued battle seemed to be was a desire to find god in something in which god is not necessary.

No problem, we all make mistakes in interpretation of peoples posts.

MatthewVII wrote: »

For what it's worth, I don't think that constantly choosing to believe that god guides evolution when there is no evidence for this is trying to grow in understanding. I think it's conjecture without reason or need.

If evolution was isolated on it's own this perhaps would be less of an issue, however evolution is interdependent on so many other things that happened in earlier cosmology. It's hard to see given the enormous odds of all of these things, that they all occurred one after the other without some form of intention behind them.

MatthewVII wrote: »

Blessings to you this night

And to you, apologies if I got a bit frustrated earlier, I just don't like when my views are misrepresented.

wolfsbane · 02-02-2009 09:45PM

Rookie72 wrote: »

What evidences are you looking for? sheesh, are we not relying upon faith anymore? I'll give you a few insights to the Church of Jesus Christ..:

"1 We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

2 We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.

3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the hgift of the Holy Ghost.

5 We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.

6 We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.

7 We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.

8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

10 We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.

11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things. "

So all in all I only bear witness and defend the faith which is belittled by others. And called a "Cult".;)

You also have priests, both Aaronic and Levitical?

You believe that God the Father was once a man like us?

You believe that when we die/in eternity each man has wives and they go on to populate new planets?

Nodin · 02-02-2009 10:03PM

Now, now. No need to boldy go extra-solar system when we haven't even got the Semites to the Americas yet.

wolfsbane · 02-02-2009 10:05PM

Nodin wrote: »

Now, now. No need to boldy go extra-solar system when we haven't even got the Semites to the Americas yet.

:D:D

philologos · 02-02-2009 10:15PM

I don't consider the Mormon claims as something to be laughed at, I want to genuinely discuss these things as we might find out some truth concerning them. As I say I have a copy of the Book of Mormon myself to research this further if necessary.

Rookie72 · 02-02-2009 10:51PM

wolfsbane wrote: »

You also have priests, both Aaronic and Levitical?

You believe that God the Father was once a man like us?

You believe that when we die/in eternity each man has wives and they go on to populate new planets?

The levitical is the Priesthood needed for Bishops for the Bishop is an office in the Levitical Priesthood.
It is the Priesthood Authority to which is needed to be Baptised, to pass the sacrament. To serve others.

The Melchezidek is from The King of Salem (Old Testament) times. and is used to administer to the sick, to give blessings, to lay their hands to give the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The stuff about God and other "Deep" doctrine, I stay away from, why? Because people dont like to know that stuff, its not important to know those things, Salvation is dependant upon our works and our faith. As displayed by the King of Kings.

And as for having wifes in the Eternities, well thats up to our Father in Heaven, and yes we can be married for all eternity, which to me is awesome, I love my wife, so to be married just til death do us part, doesnt suit me.:D

a certain group of people love to dig out our deep doctrines bypassing the basic teachings and beliefs, you cannot give man meat until he has had bread.

I love the basic things in life, and when people insult and debase my faith, I feel sorry for them to have to stoop so low.

I love God, His gave His Son so that we might have Eternal Happiness, I dont think half the members of the "mormon" church will make it. and there are alot of good people out there who are not members of the the same faith.

I just hope that I will be one of those that do make it, I hope that I can do better each day, I do not seek to debate (which to me is another word for argument) for I believe that is all the Devil wants us to do. He has many tricks and ways which he decieves people. I am fully aware of that, I am also aware that our Heavenly Father is truly there and loves us, and wants us to be happy. not fighting and disputing amongst one another.

I know my Saviour lives, I know that through the Atonement of Jesus CHrist, man can be forgiven and we ALL will live for ever.

Zombrex · 02-02-2009 10:57PM

Jakkass wrote: »

Yes, however we do know some things about the Christian message:

1) Many scholars are agreed that a man called Jesus of Nazareth existed.
2) Many scholars are agreed that Paul of Tarsus existed.
3) We can confirm that the spread of Christianity did occur through Europe, and we have historical documents which attest to this.
4) We can also confirm the existence of Christians in the Middle East by their continued existence, but also because of the Aramaic texts that we have.
5) We can confirm that there was a Jewish nation in Biblical Israel.
6) We have copies of the Biblical text to translate from and to study.

Think of it this way

We know Jesus existed (well debatable for the sake of argument I'll give you this one

). How do we know Noah existed? Or Moses? Do we have DNA evidence of that? Multiple independent accounts?

No, we have the Bible, and we have Jesus talking about them literally. We know Jesus existed and for what ever reasons you guys have, you trust Jesus and the accounts of what he is supposed to have said.

So what more would a Mormon need? What are you doing that a Mormon isn't?

They know Joseph Smith existed. And the Mormons would say they have good reason to trust him (they actually know what he said btw because he wrote it himself, rather than relying on second or third accounts).

Plus they have what he claimed were written on the plates, the American tribes. We don't have any evidence what so ever they existed, but then we don't have any evidence Noah or Moses existed. They trust Smith, just like you trust the gospels and Jesus.

Jakkass wrote: »

As for the golden plates, that's still not good enough though. Where are they, and why can't manuscripts be made from the original language to allow scholars to take a serious look at it? I don't think it's fair to say that other Christians would want to destroy the truth if they are indeed truly seeking it in their heart.

Don't you guys use similar logic to explain why no one else apart from Christians recorded Jesus' resurrection, despite him supposed to have appeared to hundreds of people. Where are the independent accounts of Jesus appearing to people? Where are the Roman records of this event? Where are the Jewish records of this event?

Or even the argument that if the resurrection wasn't true then the Jews would have recorded this to stamp out Christianity, and the absence of such record is actually support of the resurrection?

I don't want to get into a debate about that, my point is simply that Christians use almost exactly the same arguments as apologetics for their own religion.

longlashes101 · 02-02-2009 11:01PM

hi there, am reading the 19th wife at the moment interesting book, it is loosley based on the 19th wife of Bigham young one of the leaders of the latter day saints... it is mostly about the descent in to polygamy and how some factions then broke away... but i have to say the premise on how they live is intriguing at least on how it began..there ideals are admirable but it seems like always human nature and greed have a hand in everything

BrianCalgary · 03-02-2009 04:59PM

Rookie72 wrote: »

The levitical is the Priesthood needed for Bishops for the Bishop is an office in the Levitical Priesthood.
It is the Priesthood Authority to which is needed to be Baptised, to pass the sacrament. To serve others.

The Melchezidek is from The King of Salem (Old Testament) times. and is used to administer to the sick, to give blessings, to lay their hands to give the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The stuff about God and other "Deep" doctrine, I stay away from, why? Because people dont like to know that stuff, its not important to know those things, Salvation is dependant upon our works and our faith. As displayed by the King of Kings.

And as for having wifes in the Eternities, well thats up to our Father in Heaven, and yes we can be married for all eternity, which to me is awesome, I love my wife, so to be married just til death do us part, doesnt suit me.:D

a certain group of people love to dig out our deep doctrines bypassing the basic teachings and beliefs, you cannot give man meat until he has had bread.

I love the basic things in life, and when people insult and debase my faith, I feel sorry for them to have to stoop so low.

I love God, His gave His Son so that we might have Eternal Happiness, I dont think half the members of the "mormon" church will make it. and there are alot of good people out there who are not members of the the same faith.

I just hope that I will be one of those that do make it, I hope that I can do better each day, I do not seek to debate (which to me is another word for argument) for I believe that is all the Devil wants us to do. He has many tricks and ways which he decieves people. I am fully aware of that, I am also aware that our Heavenly Father is truly there and loves us, and wants us to be happy. not fighting and disputing amongst one another.

I know my Saviour lives, I know that through the Atonement of Jesus CHrist, man can be forgiven and we ALL will live for ever.

Unfortunately with the Mormon faith and where it falls down is in its recognition of Christ. The Bible is very clear and so is Jesus, He is God, been there from the start.

Also for salvation: it is by faith alone, no works needed.

Rev Hellfire · 03-02-2009 05:35PM

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Unfortunately with the Mormon faith and where it falls down is in its recognition of Christ. The Bible is very clear and so is Jesus, He is God, been there from the start.

The ironing is delicious.

It could equally be said that the failing of Christianity is its lack of recognition of the book of Mormon. Certainly neither camp can authoritatively claim to be the only valid one when you get down to he says she says.

wolfsbane · 03-02-2009 08:15PM

Rookie72 said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
You also have priests, both Aaronic and Levitical?

You believe that God the Father was once a man like us?

You believe that when we die/in eternity each man has wives and they go on to populate new planets?
The levitical is the Priesthood needed for Bishops for the Bishop is an office in the Levitical Priesthood.
It is the Priesthood Authority to which is needed to be Baptised, to pass the sacrament. To serve others.

The Melchezidek is from The King of Salem (Old Testament) times. and is used to administer to the sick, to give blessings, to lay their hands to give the gift of the Holy Ghost.

That just proves the Mormons are not Christian - Christ abolished the Levitical Priesthood when He abolished the Old Covenant:
Hebrews 7:11 Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron? 12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.

The stuff about God and other "Deep" doctrine, I stay away from, why? Because people dont like to know that stuff, its not important to know those things, Salvation is dependant upon our works and our faith. As displayed by the King of Kings.

You really need to know the answer to these things, for it is possible to believe in another gospel rather than the true one:
Galatians 1:6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ.
You show a ignorance of the gospel when you say Salvation is dependant upon our works and our faith. That was the error the Galatians were being plied with.

How can you believe in the God of the Bible when the God Mormonism teaches was once a man like us? All the "Deep" doctrine you avoid is an indicator of the true identity of Mormonism - a religion totally separate from Biblical Christianity.

And as for having wifes in the Eternities, well thats up to our Father in Heaven,

It is indeed. And He says, by His Son, that there is no marriage in heaven:
Luke 20:34 Jesus answered and said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

and yes we can be married for all eternity, which to me is awesome, I love my wife, so to be married just til death do us part, doesnt suit me.

You have a false idea of heaven, taught you by false prophets.

a certain group of people love to dig out our deep doctrines bypassing the basic teachings and beliefs, you cannot give man meat until he has had bread.

The Lord Jesus did not classify this as too deep, but openly declared it to all.

I love the basic things in life, and when people insult and debase my faith, I feel sorry for them to have to stoop so low.

Just bringing your faith to the light debases it. My desire is to lift you from it, to breathe the air of freedom. 'The truth shall set you free.'

I love God, His gave His Son so that we might have Eternal Happiness, I dont think half the members of the "mormon" church will make it. and there are alot of good people out there who are not members of the the same faith.

If you love God you will hear His word, never mind what any man says. I do hope your desire for God will prove to be real.

I just hope that I will be one of those that do make it, I hope that I can do better each day, I do not seek to debate (which to me is another word for argument) for I believe that is all the Devil wants us to do.

He can certainly use destructive argument - but he uses ignorance even more. Satan does not want us to think about the truth.

He has many tricks and ways which he decieves people. I am fully aware of that, I am also aware that our Heavenly Father is truly there and loves us, and wants us to be happy. not fighting and disputing amongst one another.

God wants us to speak the truth to one another, in love, and to confront error so that our brother will be delivered from it.

I know my Saviour lives, I know that through the Atonement of Jesus CHrist, man can be forgiven and we ALL will live for ever.

That is true - but only if we are talking about the Jesus of the Bible and His atonement as our only claim to justification.

MatthewVII · 03-02-2009 09:48PM

wolfsbane wrote: »

Satan does not want us to think about the truth.

Sounds like he's doing a roaring trade then

wolfsbane wrote:

That is true - but only if we are talking about the Jesus of the Bible and His atonement as our only claim to justification.

Why is your brand of Jesus the only one worth accepting? It seems to me that the differences between Mormon Jesus and Christian Jesus are minimal and superficial, whereas his overall message (the important bit) is pretty much the same.

Skadi · 04-02-2009 04:41PM

Interesting Discussion. Reminds me of my past. I was born and raised a mormon but strayed far from that path.

It amazes me how many people are convinced that their path is correct, and are unable to see any other different way. The idea of God, jesus, and the holy spirit being the same individual never made any sense to me. Why then would Jesus talk of his father's house if they were the same person? Why on the cross would he ask his father why had he forsaken him.

Every religion has questions, things that don't make sense. Whether it is a chequered past, or rules change to keep up with social acceptance.

The book of mormon is a lovely book, the first few books anyway. I used to love those stories when i was child often more than the bible stories.

I remember there being some evidence to prove the book of mormon but when searching the internet it seem to only be the mormon associated sites (which i find strange). I still find it amusing that the new Zion would be in America rather than in the middle east.

What turned me away from this religion was the superiority of the members, the idea that they were without fault and their constant smiling faces. You start to think that you are committing big sins by simple stuff such as not praying or reading the scriptures. When you actually sit down to analyse it you realise that it is all meaningless, and that a lot of the childish beliefs you had at nothing to do with the religion at all.

I grew up with a strong love of nature. The mormon religion taught that everyone should have their own garden and grow their own vegetables. So every year as a family we would sit down and work out what we were going to grow. I loved the idea that every monday night we would get together as a family and do things together (with a religious lesson taught of course). A nice hour spent without any outside distraction.

BrianCalgary · 04-02-2009 04:51PM

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

The ironing is delicious.

It could equally be said that the failing of Christianity is its lack of recognition of the book of Mormon. Certainly neither camp can authoritatively claim to be the only valid one when you get down to he says she says.

Have an examination of the book of Mormon, it is pretty well self explanatory.

So it doesn't come down to a he says, she says.

Mormons (or church of latter-day saints)

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