Angry with dad that he does not accept miscarriage

marti101 · 29-01-2009 02:59PM

I lost my mother 9 years ago and my dad last year you cant compare the pain of losing a parent.It is worse to lose a parent somebody who has been there for you wiped your nose and plastered your knees.It is devestating a miscarriage but t is different.After my 1st i was in bits but then had my 2 boys.Then my other miscarriage was awful but my kids kept me going.And the last one i was told id probably never have more kids but at that stage i had my self in the frame of mind that maybe it was the best thing as there was something obviously wrong with the babies.Then i found out i was pregnant and hes now 10 months old so Cathy lots and lots of positive thinking cause we are all rooting for you here.

LegacyUser · 29-01-2009 03:15PM

for your loss. I had a miscarraige last year and it still effects me daily 6 months later. Your Dad doesnt know how to react, he wants it to be made better for you and thinks by maybe downplaying it all he is doing that. It will hurt him to see you hurt too. Dont remove him from your life because of what he said, instead talk to him and tell him how you feel and tell him that you respect his view even though you dont agree with it and you should expect the same from him.

I cant say it will be the same feeling as losing a parent, as the feeling i had when i was pregnant was more powerful than the feelings i have for my Mum, who i adore and have a fantastic relationship with. The bond between Mum and child is different to that of child and parent.

You need to take time out for yourself, cry if you want to, get angry if you want to, but most importantly be good to yourself and you will get through this and the sadness will diminish.

My thoughts are with you big time!

delly · 29-01-2009 03:28PM

Cathy, firstly sorry for loss. I hope that time will ease the pain you feel.

Its a tramatic occurrence to happen and I think that there are several ways to look at it. As others have said the 'older' generation have a different view on miscarriages, maybe because back then they were so common. My own mother had 3 and recalls them without any feelings of grief.

In saying that tho' I truly believe that what you feel here and now is the same as losing a parent. The only difference I think that may occur, is that over time the pain might reduce more so than if you actually did loose a parent. I think that no matter how you rationalise it to your father, he will never really understand and likewise until you place yourself in his shoes, you won't be able to see his hurt over your comments.

Its not a right or wrong scenario, its just a case of two viewpoints that are too far apart for some middle ground. I think that time apart would be good, but don't let it develop into a valley that will have long term effects on your relationship. Here and now that probably sounds nuts, but your its still raw and will take time to heal.

The Corinthian · 29-01-2009 03:33PM

iguana wrote: »

How many women do you know who've had a miscarriage who haven't been devastated by it.

A few actually. Without need of 'replacement'; as you so diplomatically put it.

But also for the first few months after a miscarriage your hormones are haywire, which makes things harder to cope with, as you can have unnatural highs and lows. This isn't something you have to deal with, with any other death.

That's like saying that all women suffer from severe post natal depression or morning sickness. Hormones affect different people, differently.

Please don't get me wrong - I'm not suggesting that Cathy has not suffered real and valid emotions as a result of her miscarriage, only that not everyone does in the same way in the same situation and that her emotions should not invalidate the emotions of others.

29-01-2009 03:46PM

@ cathymoran

Would you by any chance be using this thread to Vent and once you've done that you'll feel a bit more resolved about it.
Your Dad is just glad you are alive and well and isnt prone to the hormonal feelings you are about this.

You've some good advice got here in this thread.Ignore what your Dad said and carry on as normal.
Don't blank him out.
If he's anything like most Dads he'll have made more sacrifices for you in your lifetime than you'll ever know so taking one attitude he has and reacting this way to it is deeply unnecessary and unfair.

It's also happening at the worst time [too close] for you to be react rationally to his take on this.

For the record my Granny had 8 kids and 2 miscarriages and her husband died when they were all young and she was pregnant at the time.
She by all accounts peckered up,head in the air and got on with it.
Ironically my Aunt,her eldest daughter also miscarried twins,lost her husband young and brought up 6 kids on her own.

You have to,absolutely have to look at the bigger longer picture...What you are dealing with now is just a flash in the pan in the bigger scheme painfull though it is.
When you are 80 years of age with your own grandchildren,this will seem miniscule.Believe me.

iguana · 29-01-2009 03:51PM

The Corinthian wrote: »

A few actually. Without need of 'replacement'; as you so diplomatically put it.

And how close are you to them? Nobody but my husband and my parents has a clue how badly my miscarriage has affected me. Any of my friends could put me forward as an example of someone who has allowed a miscarriage to affect them very little. They don't have a clue what I'm actually going through, if anyone asks I tell them I'm fine as I find it easier to act like it's not bothering me. In fact the vast majority of my friends don't even have a clue that I was ever even pregnant as I don't want to have to talk about it. It doesn't mean that I don't cry about it nearly every day, it just means that nobody knows.

The Corinthian wrote: »

That's like saying that all women suffer from severe post natal depression or morning sickness. Hormones affect different people, differently.

It's not the same as either of those things. The body is producing hormones to build a person and then that "person" disappears, but the hormones are left. The body is doing something it isn't supposed to, so the effects are severe.

spurious · 29-01-2009 04:04PM

Only a woman who has felt the pain of miscarriage can comment on what it feels like. Regardless how well-meaning people are being, the pain a partner feels following miscarriage is not the same as for the woman involved.

A close friend of mine miscarried her first child. She subsequently had a second successful pregnancy, but she grieves still for the hopes that were never fulfilled for that first baby. I don't know any woman who had a miscarriage who was not devastated, regardless of any subsequent pregnancies.

CathyMoran, I'm sorry your Dad is having trouble coping with the miscarriage. Maybe a break from him is a good thing at the moment, but please don't let it permanently affect your relationship with him.

barbiegirl · 29-01-2009 04:07PM

Hi Cathy,
First my condolences I am a lurker on TTC forum so I am familar with your story. However I was just reading the "Fighting with my dad" thread and you made comment that your dad had changed since your mum became ill.
So your dad has had to deal with his beloved daughter having cancer, his wife and life partner being ill and now the death of a grandchild.
You are understandably upset and hormonal. He is upset and now you're cutting off contact with him.
Please take some time to stand back and re-assess. He was insensitive, but it is the belief of the older generation, in fact I heard my dad say the same thing, though thankfully not to my sis in law who has miscarried. I got angry on her behalf, but untimately I know he is a good man and a complete softy who loves his children and grandchildren dearly so falling out is not an option.
Right now ultimately you need him and he needs you.

The Corinthian · 29-01-2009 04:36PM

iguana wrote: »

And how close are you to them?

Very, very close to one.

It's not the same as either of those things. The body is producing hormones to build a person and then that "person" disappears, but the hormones are left. The body is doing something it isn't supposed to, so the effects are severe.

Again, even there it depends upon the person.

It might be better if we agree to disagree as a heated discussion on this is probably inappropriate here.

iguana · 29-01-2009 06:13PM

The Corinthian wrote: »

Very, very close to one.

So close that you can honestly say that there is no way on earth they are putting a brave face on it with you? I'm not trying to undermine your relationship with this person but my brothers have no clue about this with me, nor do my best friends. My dad only knows part of it because he caught me once on a bad day and my mum and husband know most of what I'm feeling but not all of it. Most of the time I pretend not to feel what I'm feeling because if I act like I'm ok then it's easier to feel ok when I'm with those people.

Unless you yourself are a woman who has lost a baby that you very much wanted. And had very little sadness about it than you can't say that anyone feels like that. And tbh, if there are women like that then they are have the same personality disorder as the theoretical person who didn't grieve their parents which you described. Losing a baby which you wanted and loved is always devastating too.

The Corinthian · 29-01-2009 06:33PM

iguana wrote: »

So close that you can honestly say that there is no way on earth they are putting a brave face on it with you?

Yes, without a shred of doubt.

I'm not trying to undermine your relationship with this person

Well, actually you are.

Unless you yourself are a woman who has lost a baby that you very much wanted.

The old "screw you, you're just a man" response... look, a number of women have already stated in this thread that while they were affected by miscarriages, it was not 'devastating' to them.

Different women are affected differently by the experience. Some of the reason may be down to when it happens during pregnancy or physiological differences or existing psychological make-up or even whether they wanted to be pregnant in the first place or not. Whatever the reason, you cannot claim that all women are in all cases affected in exactly the same way or degree.

My advice to Cathy remains the same; one of agree to disagree with her father. Certainly her father could be more understanding, but she too has completely ignored his viewpoint and feelings. Ultimately we all experience tragedy in our lives at some point, but it is how we deal with this that should define who we are rather than the tragedy itself.

Lollipops23 · 29-01-2009 06:37PM

metrovelvet wrote: »

Have you lost a parent? Are you in a position to compare a miscarriage with the death of a parent? There are all sorts of losses, you cant measure grief. You bothneed to understand this. You may have inadvertently invalidated his losses in your comment.

has her father gone through the physical and emotional pain of miscarrying?nope. he hurt her, he invalidated her loss.even of it's not significant to him,it is to her and that should be all that matters. when a 14 year old girl has her heart broken, it may not be remotely important to her dad but he'll still comfort her while she cries her heart out. not on the same par as losing a child,but best i could think of!

Beruthiel · 29-01-2009 06:39PM

iguana, please agree to disagree with TC and lets get back to helping Cathy out.

This applies to the rest of you too.

This thread is about Cathy not the rest of you.

Wibbs · 29-01-2009 06:39PM

OK some good advice from all, but I think this is hardly the place to be escalating tit for tat discussion. So please stay on topic and away from repeated one to one stuff. Thanks.

The Corinthian · 29-01-2009 06:46PM

Lollipops23 wrote: »

when a 14 year old girl has her heart broken, it may not be remotely important to her dad but he'll still comfort her while she cries her heart out. not on the same par as losing a child,but best i could think of!

Of course, but if the 14 year old girl argues that his death would be on the same level as her heartbreak that I'd imagine the father might be upset (again, not on the same level as losing a child, but I'm just working with your example).

Seriously, no one is suggesting that this has not affected Cathy in a very deep way, but this story really does appear to be a case of two people invalidating each other's feelings and the whole thing spinning out of control.

Edit: Perhaps speaking to him and saying that the reason that you used that comparison was to underline how much it had affected you and you didn't mean to hurt his feelings might be a way to reopen dialogue and understanding.

CDfm · 29-01-2009 07:02PM

Your Dad is from a different generation when misscarriages werent talked about or were more common.Death illness and the TB plague were more common.The cycle off life and a misscarriage at 9.5 weeks was probably meant to be because of viability issues.

I know a few guys who would feel like you do and I was upset when it happened to me and my ex - I was upset.

Try not to think badly of your Dad as in his way he might be trying to help you think differently in a get over it kind of way.

That should not stop you if you can trying for another baby if you can & I wish you luck:)

CathyMoran · 29-01-2009 08:11PM

Sorry, have been away all day, actually got my hair done in the afternoon...am trying to spoil myself for the next while.

My dad and I have not been the same since my mum got ill several years ago - it turns out that she really was half of him and he is lost without her. Over the past few years his personality has changed and at New Years we had our first real row ever. I sought comfort from him over my loss being aware that he was hurting too (I know that he wanted this child), having said that I explained how I felt about our loss - I have not technically lost a parent but have gone through the loss of a parent so I know how upsetting it is to loose a parent (sorry if that is cryptic). He also said that my husband was weak as he is grieving over our child. I just cant speak to him at the moment no matter how hard I try, it brings up memories of me needing him and him as I felt shutting the door in my face. I am aware that he has been through hell in the past few years but I am doing well holding myself together and speaking and seeing someone who hurts me is too much for now. Of course I still love him. I also know that he is upset over loosing his grandchild.

We will probably never be able to conceive again though we will try - this was our "miracle baby" that so many people talk about.

I did do a pregnancy test - the hormones are still there but are at a lot less.

I did not mean to offend anyone who has lost a parent but this is how I feel. We have been onto the miscarriage association from near the begining - they are brilliant. It is just hard when you father and brother dont understand that you are grieving.

Semele · 29-01-2009 08:17PM

With total sympathy for you, I think that you're being too hard on your dad. As another poster said, the only people who have been "bereaved" are you and your husband since the baby was more of a reality to you than to anyone else. This doesn't mean that no-one else feels bad. I'm sure your dad is upset- but FOR you, not WITH you, since he is not in your position and so cannot know how it feels.

CathyMoran wrote: »

Just a quick reply. The baby was our child - I was trying to explain to my dad how I felt over the loss. I remember a friend going through it and not understanding it either thinking that my situation was worse (I had bad cancer), now I know that this is far worse for me.

You have admitted yourself that you could not understand how your friend felt when it was her in the situation. Does this mean you had no sympathy for her, or that you would not have done anything to make things different for her if you had the power to? No. I'm sure you cared deeply FOR HER, as anyone would for someone close to them, but you did not feel the pain yourself. This is now the situation your father is in, except undoubtedly magnified since you are his daughter. Since there is no way that he can feel what you do, accusing him of feeling nothing is surely hugely hurtful and unfair to him.

In the situation with your friend, you thought that what you were going through was worse than what she was. In comparing your miscarriage to the death of a parent (the rights and wrongs of which already having been discussed here) you are again to a certain extent claiming that what you are feeling is worse than anything anyone else has been through. Surely you should have realised by now the subjectivity of grief? You cannot know how somthing feels until you have been through it yourself, nor does anyone have the right to compare someone else's experience to their own. If your father has suffered loss in his own life, it may be the case that he resents your comparing it to something he feels is "lesser". There is no right or wrong here- you would both be doing the same disservice to the other.

In the situation with your friend you were at a distance, therefore able to objectively think "there are worse things that could happen" (eg. your cancer). Your dad in this case has seen you battle through potentially life-threatening ilnesses- from his position there are undoubtedly worse things that could happen. It's not that he doesn't care, it's that his concern is for YOU, and you are alive and well- when he knows all to well that this may not have been the case.

I think what others have siad about the generation gap is likely true- not just in attitudes to miscarriage itself but also in the way people were expected to deal with loss.

We are so accustomed to the modern attitude that one should talk about things to aid healing that it is easy to forget that older generations were brought up to believe that "least said is soonest mended". Your dad might well honestly believe that discouraging you from brooding over the subject is the best way to help you get over it.

You, and you husband, should go to counselling to help you come to terms with this, if you feel it is what you need. Pushing away your father for something that is not his fault will not help anything.

As a point of interest, the wording of your thread title is "Angry with dad that he does not accept miscarriage". It would seem to me that he has accepted it. It is you however for whom the pain is still raw. We have the capacity to do irrational and hurtful things when we are in pain, or angry or disappointed. Make sure that you are not projecting all of these feelings onto your father in the absence of anyone/anything else to blame for what has happened.

CathyMoran · 29-01-2009 08:31PM

It was actually a male friend who lost the baby, he has been very good to me about it. I was aware that he was hurting and did everything that I could to help even though I was very ill at the time.

My dad just wants to ignore that this has ever happened to me, that it was not a real baby because we did not see it...he just wants to carry on and ignore that it happened. It is only 2 weeks and a day!

We have looked into councelling however I am of the viewpoint that we are going through a normal grieving process and that this takes time...my husband and I do talk to one another about how we are feeling every day. I get by day by day but certain things still make me upset (as do certain days) and I have lost my spark for now, but that is normal.

This was not the first trouble that my dad and I have had, we were incredibly close when I was growing up but he changed when mum got ill and when I got married (though I married a sensitive man like him). My life has changed from what has happened as much as him and we have drifted apart. I do know that he is upset though but he is dealing with his grief through art.

I do still have my sense of humour - when going back to my husband I heard the Ace of Base song "All that she wants is another baby...", I was half crying and laughing in the street but I think that it is apt for us. The pregnancy was great for me as it made me look after my health better and eat more - I also loved being pregnant but I find the night very hard as we used to both hug our baby at night.

delly · 30-01-2009 01:06AM

CathyMoran wrote: »

I did not mean to offend anyone who has lost a parent but this is how I feel.

No need to apologise on this front, I lost my dad when I was 12 and wouldn't be offended in any way by how you feel. Its that long ago now that I can honestly say it means very little to me now.

muffinob1 · 30-01-2009 01:44AM

Cathy I've lost a parent very suddenly and was fighting with him at the time and trust me you won't get over that so for peace of mind for the future talk to him.

Also you are clearly still very emotional and a little over the top. Many many women lose children at that stage of pregnancy and while it's little comfort to you at this point there is a reason this feotus wasn't able to survive and now you and your family - father, brother and husband - will have an angel to watch over you.

I have to say your attitude towards your father is harsh and a little selfish, it's clear from your posts that your mam is alive but has some longterm illness, you keep talking about how you used to be close and you used to get on well etc when your mam was well, it's very clear that your father is down about this illness and has lost his partner in life to it. Think back or reflect on the posts you've made in each one you refer to your husband and the support you get from, now imagine doing all this without him, would you be saying and doing the right thing? The poor man depended on your mother she probably guided him at all times and now she can't.

If you are to move on and try for another baby miracle or not your body needs to be calm and relaxed and at peace. It happened once that was the miracle it proved it was possible so it will happen again.

I think you need to deal with your loss and stop expecting other people to grieve just like you are it's unfair and it really is emotional bullying. I'm sorry if I seem a little unsupportive here but I have to agree with the man that posted early yeaterday can't remember the name but you are being childish. You didn't let cancer beat you so don't let this beat or ruin you either.

Also please don't forget there are thousands of oung children in this country that need foster and adoptive homes maybe you should consider that option and let nature take its course after that.

Hope I helped a bit at least don't fight take that much from what I said cos you might never get tomorrow to fix it. Good luck

CathyMoran · 30-01-2009 07:44AM

We would gladly adopt but it is almost impossible to, age is not with us, I dont get the all clear for 3 years so we cant adopt in any case even though we want to as I will be too old by the time we would get approved.

There are other issues with my mum and dad that I do not want to bring up here but lets just say that they are extreme. I loved my dad my dad even still. I dont expect others to grieve lilke me, that was never my point, I just wanted support from my dad when I was and am upset and was told to just get over it, he let me down yet again when I really needed him, like he did for the rest of my life...

Loosing a child is incredibly tough and it is very early days yet.

The more I read this post the more I realise that I really do need time away from all of them.

littlebug · 30-01-2009 10:55AM

Cathy my heart absolutely aches for you. I haven't been through a miscarriage and I can't even begin to imagine how you're feeling. With regard to your father I have to agree with what some of the others have said. Men (and women) of that generation just cope and react differently. It's not that he doesn't want to support you, he just doesn't know how. My parents lost four babies, 2 of them near term. My mother had to come home from hospital and get on with raising her other children and running a farm... she had no choice and she just did it. There was no such thing as counselling... no one talked about grieving and they weren't encouraged to talk about it. Their way of getting over it was to just get on with things. That was how then men saw the women cope. Over the years I've heard my mam talk about those babies only a handful of times. Funny enough when my dad gets drunk he gets a bit mushy and he has talked (just to me) of the pain of burying his children (physically- by himself). Though he didn't use those words I could see the pain. I doubt if they've ever talked about it much themselves over the years. It's just their way. It doesn't mean he doesn't want to support you. He just doesn't know how.

Splendour · 30-01-2009 12:16PM

CathyMoran wrote: »

Sorry, have been away all day, actually got my hair done in the afternoon...am trying to spoil myself for the next while.

Good woman, little treats like this are so important when grieving, be it through the break up of a relationship or death or any other loss.

Cathy, I can feel your pain and your frustration and what you are feeling is normal when greiving. I lost a baby 15 years ago and I remember wondering how people could simply get on with their lives when I was going through all this grief! I recall coming out of Holles St. with my baby's coffin and as it was summer there were people drinking outside a pub. I seriously could not get my head around this, and thought I'd never ever smile or go to a pub for a pint ever again-I got over that thought though

Your Dad is obviously going through his own pain with your Mom not being well and sometimes we think our pain is much worse than the other person's. He's assuming his pain is worse than yours and vice versa. Also, as others have pointed out, he's of a different generation and obviously has never known what it's like to carry a child.
I recall during an ISANDS (Irish Stillbirth & Neonatal Death Society) meeting, one woman who was in her 60's came along to a meeting for the first time ever, having lost 2 children about 20 prior to this. She told her husband where she was going, his reaction; 'have you not gotten over that yet...'

Years before I lost my baby,there was a girl I knew who had lost a baby and then became pregnant again with twins. At that time, in my ignorance,I thought 'sure she's having twins now, she'll be fine...'
You gotta go there to understand...

Though it hurts, don't cut your Dad off completely. Am glad to see you're attending a support group-keep that and the hair do's up!

I will continue to pray for your health and pray that you will get pregnant again and have a full term healthy baby.

x

LegacyUser · 30-01-2009 12:36PM

CathyMoran wrote: »

................... he let me down yet again when I really needed him, like he did for the rest of my life...
..................

I think this statement tells much more that you said in the original post, your "issues" with dad are not isolated to your current situation.

You have your own unit, with a husband who loves/supports you as you want/need/deserve. Accept your dad will be different, and you have a different man to lean on.

Life is too short for grudges, especially with family. I, too, know of someone who's last memory of the dad was a row, the dad was dead within 48 hours and the last interaction was not nice.

It is difficult, sometimes, to accept that others will not necessarily behave as you would like. Be grateful you have a soul-mate who will take what you want/feel, on board.

And, you are a fighter, and an inspiration to many, much more that you might think.

Keep chin up and chest out, and best of luck.

ebmma · 30-01-2009 02:46PM

It is possible that your dad is just not in touch with his emotions all that much (plenty of men aren't).

He wants you to be happy again and get over it. He hates seeing you upset and his intentions are probably good.

So he's tying to brush it off as something not that important to just put it behind.

However, even if his intentions are good his behaviour hurts you.
And you don't need that when you are grieving, so maybe not having contact with him for a little while is not such a bad idea.

metrovelvet · 30-01-2009 03:10PM

Lollipops23 wrote: »

has her father gone through the physical and emotional pain of miscarrying?nope. he hurt her, he invalidated her loss.even of it's not significant to him,it is to her and that should be all that matters. when a 14 year old girl has her heart broken, it may not be remotely important to her dad but he'll still comfort her while she cries her heart out. not on the same par as losing a child,but best i could think of!

I said this in my first post. Maybe Cathy should just try to explain that she was trying to make a comparison because she really wants her father to understand what a loss this is for her.

Sometimes you deny someone else's pain because you dont want to face your own.

paperclip2 · 30-01-2009 03:43PM

Cathy, I'm so sorry about you and your husbands loss. You are both in my thoughts.

My own dad is one of those men who is beyond uncomfortable with other peoples emotions. He is completely unable to deal with pain in people he loves. This has caused him to do and say things at times that have added to the hurt, not helped.

Over the years I've learned to make allowances. But sometimes the hurt is just too big and for my own sense of self I've had to withdraw for a time to deal with it. I know I can't change how he responds to things but my own response is completely within my control. If I need a time out, away from him I take it and I am honest about why I need to do that for myself.

You have communicated how you feel about your awful loss to your dad. How he dealt with it is far from perfect and not the response you needed from him but it isn't something you can change. What you can do now is take whatever steps you need to take to come to terms with this event and move forward from it.

Thinking of you. I hope you feel better soon. It won't always hurt as badly as now.

CodeMonkey · 30-01-2009 04:18PM

CathyMoran wrote: »

We will probably never be able to conceive again though we will try - this was our "miracle baby" that so many people talk about.

Sorry but you're being very negative and a bit of a drama queen here. Chemo doesn't always affect women's fertility and if it does it's usually temporary. It depends on the drugs that was use and the dosage. The fact that you can conceive means there's nothing wrong with your fertility unless you are holding back some information told to you by your doctors.

shellyboo · 30-01-2009 04:30PM

CodeMonkey wrote: »

Sorry but you're being very negative and a bit of a drama queen here. Chemo doesn't always affect women's fertility and if it does it's usually temporary. It depends on the drugs that was use and the dosage. The fact that you can conceive means there's nothing wrong with your fertility unless you are holding back some information told to you by your doctors.

CodeMonkey, do you not think Cathy might know a bit more about her own chances than you do? Do you not think she's spoken to her doctors? And just because a woman is able to conceive doesn't mean she doesn't have fertility issues... there are many women who have problems carrying a pregnancy to term but who are able to conceive naturally.

Have a bit of respect and don't be telling a woman who's just lost what she sees as her miracle baby that she's being a drama queen.

Angry with dad that he does not accept miscarriage

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