What should the penalty be for illegal abortions?

sassa · 23-01-2009 12:14am

Abortions should be made legal in Ireland. while I would never have one myself who am I to deny someone else the right to make their own choice.
If it was legal there would be no back street abortionists that dont really give a damn about the girl and what she is going through at least if it was legal she could talk to a professional that can make her fully aware of the results of what she is about to do and talk her through all options available to her. I have to say idea that a woman that has an abortion should be charged with murder is completly ridiculous How many women actually look on abortion as a form of contraception (I'm not going to be naive because there have been studies done that show some do go through with abortion purely because they believe it a better choice than remembering a damn condom-though I doubt they used the term damn condom in their research;)) Most women that have abortions do so after much thought and will feel remorse afterwards and have to wonder "did I make the right choice" for the rest of their life to put these women in jail is just idiotic. What would be next up on the hit list? Could I face a manslaughter charge because I suffered a miscarriage?

Sam Vimes · 23-01-2009 12:15am

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

well no-one was able to have a rational debate with either one of you so they left.

just to be sure in case it's just not coming across properly in text, is that a joke? i think i'm being perfectly reasonable and if someone can't debate me on it it's most likely because they can't support their case properly because they're wrong

Sam Vimes · 23-01-2009 12:20am

sassa wrote: »

Abortions should be made legal in Ireland. while I would never have one myself who am I to deny someone else the right to make their own choice.
If it was legal there would be no back street abortionists that dont really give a damn about the girl and what she is going through at least if it was legal she could talk to a professional that can make her fully aware of the results of what she is about to do and talk her through all options available to her.

this exact point has already been covered. that only makes sense if you already think that there's nothing wrong with abortion. the point i made previously was:

if heroin was made legal no one would have to get it from back street dealers so it would be better quality and they'd be less likely to die. does that mean we should legalise heroin?

sassa wrote: »

I have to say idea that a woman that has an abortion should be charged with murder is completly ridiculous How many women actually look on abortion as a form of contraception (I'm not going to be naive because there have been studies done that show some do go through with abortion purely because they believe it a better choice than remembering a damn condom-though I doubt they used the term damn condom in their research;))

whether she mulled over it or did it willy nilly isn't really relevant. the fact is she did it

sassa wrote: »

Most women that have abortions do so after much thought and will feel remorse afterwards and have to wonder "did I make the right choice" for the rest of their life to put these women in jail is just idiotic. What would be next up on the hit list? Could I face a manslaughter charge because I suffered a miscarriage?

no of course you wouldn't face a man slaughter charge because a mis-carriage is completely outside your control. and the fact that they feel guilty doesn't mean they should never be punished for it. i'm sure lots of murderers and rapists feel guilty afterwards too

since you mention the fact that women feel remorse afterwards, could you answer the question i've been asking. why do they feel remorse? the stated position of pro abortionists is that the foetus is just a clump of cells and not a person. if they truly believe that, why do they feel remorse when they get an abortion but not when they get an ingrown toenail removed?

ntlbell · 23-01-2009 12:27am

tallaght01 wrote: »

I
I think YOU might be the one diluting the seriousness of mental illness with the assertion that there's A) huge amounts of timewasters being poorly managed in the community, with really no evidence to back the assertion up.

There is a huge amount of time wasters. I know enough of them.
The evidence is there for everyone to see and for anyone to test for themselves.

go to your GP tell them your feeling down the last while you have lost interest in X,Y,Z walk out of the GP with script for mind altering drugs, no test no evaluation from someone who's actually qualified in the field to suggest you require a drug to correct an imbalance that might not be there

You're on cloud cuckoo land if you think the above doesn't happen, this country is a wash with people who have mistaken empty and unfulfilled lives that don't match up to their sense of entitlement or the nonsense they watch on television with depression.

There is a need out there and a complete lack of support for people who really need help in mental health and there is a lot of genuine cases but there is also a lot of people who just need to wake up to reality and GP's should start to be prosecuted for handing out these drugs willy nilly

Sam Vimes · 23-01-2009 12:30am

tallaght01 wrote: »

Man, post-natal depression can literally be a killer. It really can. It may not come during pregnancy, but happens very soon afterwards. It's a really really horrible disease.

i know there's post natal depression but that happens after the birth and more importantly, having an abortion wouldn't cure it, which was the point of the argument

ntlbell · 23-01-2009 12:31am

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

well no-one was able to have a rational debate with either one of you so they left.

let me know when the tumbleweed turns up

It seems people ran out of ways to make murdering sound fluffy.

sassa · 23-01-2009 12:41am

my opinion is women that are facing the choice of an abortion know that it is more than just a clump of cells and this is something they tell themselves so they can be sure they made the right choice. When I was pregnant with my first daughter a friend suggested I should have an abortion. I was horrified by the thought as I knew this "clump of cells" was so much more, it's easier for people to consider abortion if they disassociate from the fact it is a life. As for why do they feel remorse afterwards who knows? who knows why women blame themselves when they have a miscarriage even when told it was out of their control but they do. There is no explanation. I was told by a doctor that my mc was down to the fact the embryo was not forming right. Even though I knew that and told my partner that I still blamed myself. I'd imagine the fact that the pregnancy hormones are still in your system wouldnt help much.
But thats why I think there needs to be better information provided to women so they don't feel a stigma about it if they chose it and are better informed on exactly how they will feel afterwards and receive the correct after care.

tallaght01 · 23-01-2009 12:43am

ntlbell wrote: »

There is a huge amount of time wasters. I know enough of them.
The evidence is there for everyone to see and for anyone to test for themselves.

go to your GP tell them your feeling down the last while you have lost interest in X,Y,Z walk out of the GP with script for mind altering drugs, no test no evaluation from someone who's actually qualified in the field to suggest you require a drug to correct an imbalance that might not be there

You're on cloud cuckoo land if you think the above doesn't happen, this country is a wash with people who have mistaken empty and unfulfilled lives that don't match up to their sense of entitlement or the nonsense they watch on television with depression.

There is a need out there and a complete lack of support for people who really need help in mental health and there is a lot of genuine cases but there is also a lot of people who just need to wake up to reality and GP's should start to be prosecuted for handing out these drugs willy nilly

There's an old saying in medicine that goes "The plural of anecdote is not evidence".

I think that applies perfectly here.

Sam Vimes wrote: »

i know there's post natal depression but that happens after the birth and more importantly, having an abortion wouldn't cure it, which was the point of the argument

It happens as a direct result of the birth, though.

Well, I don't see how the fact that it occurs both after birth and (sometimes) post abortion is relevant.

But I'm happy as long as we're all acknowledging that mental illness can be as much of a struggle for mums as physical illness, especially if postpartum psychosis develops.

ntlbell · 23-01-2009 12:48am

tallaght01 wrote: »

There's an old saying in medicine that goes "The plural of anecdote is not evidence".

I think that applies perfectly here.

here's a FACT.

GP's all over Ireland hand out Anti D's without consulting with a psych in fact without doing anything at all bar asking you a few questions.

This is very dangerous.

tallaght01 · 23-01-2009 12:50am

ntlbell wrote: »

here's a FACT.

GP's all over Ireland hand out Anti D's without consulting with a psych in fact without doing anything at all bar asking you a few questions.

This is very dangerous.

"Evidence"" is not the plural of "Anecdote" :pac:

Sam Vimes · 23-01-2009 12:53am

tallaght01 wrote: »

Well, I don't see how the fact that it occurs both after birth and (sometimes) post abortion is relevant.

i think you missed the earlier bit. someone asked if it's ok to have an abortion to cure mental illness so i'm saying it would be very very rare to have a mental illness that can only be cured by having an abortion

sassa wrote: »

my opinion is women that are facing the choice of an abortion know that it is more than just a clump of cells and this is something they tell themselves so they can be sure they made the right choice. When I was pregnant with my first daughter a friend suggested I should have an abortion. I was horrified by the thought as I knew this "clump of cells" was so much more, it's easier for people to consider abortion if they disassociate from the fact it is a life. As for why do they feel remorse afterwards who knows?

you say "who knows" but you gave the answer earlier in your post. they feel guilty because they know deep down that it is actually more than a clump of cells despite what they try to convince themselves of

sassa wrote: »

But thats why I think there needs to be better information provided to women so they don't feel a stigma about it if they chose it and are better informed on exactly how they will feel afterwards and receive the correct after care.

but you see they should feel a stigma because a woman who has an abortion and feels any sense of remorse has just killed a child. what they did was wrong and they knew deep down that it was wrong but they did it anyway. i think they deserve all the stigma they get

sam34 · 23-01-2009 12:54am

ntlbell wrote: »

There is a huge amount of time wasters. I know enough of them.
The evidence is there for everyone to see and for anyone to test for themselves.

anecdotes and personal experience do not make relaible validated evidence

go to your GP tell them your feeling down the last while you have lost interest in X,Y,Z walk out of the GP with script for mind altering drugs, no test no evaluation from someone who's actually qualified in the field to suggest you require a drug to correct an imbalance that might not be there

ie go to your gp with symptoms suggestive of an illness and subsequently receive treatment for that illness? i dont see a problem with that. what test do you suggest GP's use? the diagnosis of depression is a clinical one, not a laboratory diagnosis. and many cases of depression can be successfully managed by GP's, without referral to psychiatry. the psych services are seriously over-burdened, there is no sense in sending every depressed or potentially depressed person in that direction... the psych services would collapse. it's unnecessary anyway. and gp's are qualified to prescribe psychotropic meds.

You're on cloud cuckoo land if you think the above doesn't happen, this country is a wash with people who have mistaken empty and unfulfilled lives that don't match up to their sense of entitlement or the nonsense they watch on television with depression.

there's some truth in that. some in the general public tend to equate feeling sad/fed up with clinical depression. that doesnt mean healthcare professionals do, though.

There is a need out there and a complete lack of support for people who really need help in mental health and there is a lot of genuine cases but there is also a lot of people who just need to wake up to reality and GP's should start to be prosecuted for handing out these drugs willy nilly

as a psychiatrist, i would much rather gp's err on the side of over-prescribing than under-prescribing.

i also dont think it is fair or accurate to say there is "a complete lack of support" for those with mental illness. the psych services are underfunded and under-resourced, certainly, yet they are one of the most accessible of medical services in the country.

sam34 · 23-01-2009 12:57am

ntlbell wrote: »

here's a FACT.

GP's all over Ireland hand out Anti D's without consulting with a psych in fact without doing anything at all bar asking you a few questions.

This is very dangerous.

GP's are qualified and entitled to prescribe without consulting psychiatrists.

and the diagnosis of depression is a clinical one... made on the basis of questions answered by the patient.

FACT :pac:

and i dont see how you can call it "very dangerous"

ntlbell · 23-01-2009 1:09am

sam34 wrote: »

e go to your gp with symptoms suggestive of an illness and subsequently receive treatment for that illness? i dont see a problem with that. what test do you suggest GP's use? the diagnosis of depression is a clinical one, not a laboratory diagnosis. and many cases of depression can be successfully managed by GP's, without referral to psychiatry. the psych services are seriously over-burdened, there is no sense in sending every depressed or potentially depressed person in that direction... the psych services would collapse. it's unnecessary anyway. and gp's are qualified to prescribe psychotropic meds.

as a psychiatrist, i would much rather gp's err on the side of over-prescribing than under-prescribing.

i also dont think it is fair or accurate to say there is "a complete lack of support" for those with mental illness. the psych services are underfunded and under-resourced, certainly, yet they are one of the most accessible of medical services in the country.

losing interest in something and not feeling on top of the world does not equal having clinical depression. I would like to be asked questions you know anything before you put the pen to paper maybe ask about my diet? exercise? my social circle? anything to try and find out do i really require a mind altering drug or is this person really depressed if I'm a GP and I'm in anyway unsure I would pass them on to someone who is qualified and can ask the right questions and make the right call.

so you would prefer GP's handed out anti d's like smarties without asking any important question you just feel down and lost intest in your hobby well feck me you're brain is obviously lacking something here you go?

it's amazing that something like 1 in 4 in dublin suffer with some strange magical imbalance in the brain but every outside dublin ireland is 1 in 8 and above? are people in dublin unlucky with the chemical imbalances?

is it something in the air?

really?

ntlbell · 23-01-2009 1:10am

sam34 wrote: »

GP's are qualified and entitled to prescribe without consulting psychiatrists.

and the diagnosis of depression is a clinical one... made on the basis of questions answered by the patient.

FACT :pac:

and i dont see how you can call it "very dangerous"

I would imagine people taken mind altering drugs when there not needed would not be a good thing?

what questions?

"whats wrong"

"i feel down and depressed"

"try these"

"they didnt work"

"ok try these"

very advanced techniques they have

johnnyskeleton · 23-01-2009 1:17am

Sam Vimes wrote: »

since the last abortion thread :P

No, ever. There are only 2 threads with more replies, the prostitution and the christening ones. Both of which are long running threads. Humanities has never before seen this amount of traffic.

Don't leave!

Sam Vimes · 23-01-2009 1:21am

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

No, ever. There are only 2 threads with more replies, the prostitution and the christening ones. Both of which are long running threads. Humanities has never before seen this amount of traffic.

Don't leave!

how did you verify that? did you just look back through the pages? because threads drop off the end after a while so you can't see them. it's just that the last thread went on for weeks and i was posting in it the whole time. i probably generated 20 pages all on my own

sam34 · 23-01-2009 1:22am

ntlbell wrote: »

losing interest in something and not feeling on top of the world does not equal having clinical depression. I would like to be asked questions you know anything before you put the pen to paper maybe ask about my diet? exercise? my social circle? anything to try and find out do i really require a mind altering drug or is this person really depressed if I'm a GP and I'm in anyway unsure I would pass them on to someone who is qualified and can ask the right questions and make the right call.

so you would prefer GP's handed out anti d's like smarties without asking any important question you just feel down and lost intest in your hobby well feck me you're brain is obviously lacking something here you go?

it's amazing that something like 1 in 4 in dublin suffer with some strange magical imbalance in the brain but every outside dublin ireland is 1 in 8 and above? are people in dublin unlucky with the chemical imbalances?

is it something in the air?

really?

sigh. subject low mood and lack of interest in things are some of the symptoms of clinical depression. so if someone complains of those, then the gp is on the right track in thinking of depression.

most gp's will enquire about more symptoms before making a diagnosis. if it has been someone's experience that a gp did not do that, i believe that is outside the norm.

im not sure why you think gp's are unsure - generaly by the time a referral comes to psychiatry, the gp has made sensible treatment decisions, but the patient hasnt responded, which is why they need psych. however, the diagnosis of depression is quite straightforward, and not something i would expect to be causing confusion or uncertainty amongst gp's.

and, no, i did not say gp's should hand out meds like smarties without making a diagnosis.:rolleyes: thats patently ridiculous.

my point about them erring on the side of prescribing is this: depression is a serious illness, that can have fatal consequences for the patient themselves and sometimes others. if a gp makes a decision to prescribe at a mild/early stage of the illness, i think that is a decision taken in teh patients best interests, in the hope that the depression can be halted in its tracks before anything too serious happens. untreated or inadequately treated depression is a killer, quite literally.

i have no idea where you have gotten the 1in4/1in8 figures from. i have not seen these comparisons before, and i do not know if they are accurate.

sam34 · 23-01-2009 1:25am

ntlbell wrote: »

I would imagine people taken mind altering drugs when there not needed would not be a good thing?

what questions?

"whats wrong"

"i feel down and depressed"

"try these"

"they didnt work"

"ok try these"

very advanced techniques they have

as i ahve pointed out to you before, the diagnosis of depression is a clinical one, based on interview and mental state examination.
there is no laboratory test for depression.
what "advanced technique" would you like to see gp's use, instead of clinical interview?

edit - backseat modding- we are dragging this thread wildly off topic. best create another thread if you wish to discuss it further

johnnyskeleton · 23-01-2009 1:28am

Sam Vimes wrote: »

how did you verify that? did you just look back through the pages? because threads drop off the end after a while so you can't see them. it's just that the last thread went on for weeks and i was posting in it the whole time. i probably generated 20 pages all on my own

Ok fair point, but most of the other abortion threads have been over the course of at least a week or a month & this is mostly just from today. Maybe it will set a record for quickest lock if nothing else.

Strangely enough, I don't feel that I'm even being off topic since the most recent posts are about GP methodologies etc.

Sam Vimes · 23-01-2009 1:33am

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Strangely enough, I don't feel that I'm even being off topic since the most recent posts are about GP methodologies etc.

this is true. lads, can we get back onto the topic at hand, ie baby killing: ok or not :P

Sam Vimes · 23-01-2009 1:44am

now i think of it, i'd actually be more forgiving of a woman who had absolutely no qualms having an abortion, who saw it as no different to having an ingrown toenail removed and never thought about it again afterwards.

the reason i'd be more forgiving is that that woman doesn't think she did anything wrong but a woman who worries and frets and fells guilt for the rest of her life, she knew that what she was doing was wrong and she went ahead and did it anyway. i think that's a far more immoral act

23-01-2009 2:04am

m83 wrote: »

Ok, hypothetical situation for you.

Abortion is illegal. A girl is raped and beaten to within an inch of her life. She recovers and aborts the baby because she can't handle the trauma of the situation.

Still 25 years?

Don't mean to sound callous, but how does being produced by rape mean the foetus is any less of a human?

Bottle_of_Smoke · 23-01-2009 2:45am

If the doctor is qualified to perform abortions I wouldn't like to think we'd be wasting him in a jail cell because he was helping someone who would have more than likely gone to England anyway.

Backstreet unqualified improvised abortions, I think they should be charged with some sort of exploitation against the mother but nothing in relation to the foetus.

There is a grey area I must admit. If someone punched a pregnant woman in the womb & directly caused her to miscarry I'd have to say it would be rough justice if he only got charged with punching a woman.

metrovelvet · 23-01-2009 8:31am

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

If the doctor is qualified to perform abortions I wouldn't like to think we'd be wasting him in a jail cell because he was helping someone who would have more than likely gone to England anyway.

Backstreet unqualified improvised abortions, I think they should be charged with some sort of exploitation against the mother but nothing in relation to the foetus.

There is a grey area I must admit. If someone punched a pregnant woman in the womb & directly caused her to miscarry I'd have to say it would be rough justice if he only got charged with punching a woman.

In the US its double homicide if you kill a pregnant woman. Guess its only a human life when the mother says it is.

Sam Vimes · 23-01-2009 8:36am

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

If the doctor is qualified to perform abortions I wouldn't like to think we'd be wasting him in a jail cell because he was helping someone who would have more than likely gone to England anyway.

What about a doctor who got heroin for someone who would have likely gone to a dealer anyway? Should he be let off?
As i keep saying, that logic only works if you assume there's nothing wrong with abortion, which anti abortionists don't accept

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

There is a grey area I must admit. If someone punched a pregnant woman in the womb & directly caused her to miscarry I'd have to say it would be rough justice if he only got charged with punching a woman.

now that's an odd concept

You get punished or not depending on the method used to kill the foetus? Surely it either has a right to life or is a clump of cells that can be discarded? Are there ways that i can kill you without being prosecuted?

Sam Vimes · 23-01-2009 8:43am

metrovelvet wrote: »

In the US its double homicide if you kill a pregnant woman. Guess its only a human life when the mother says it is.

Seems so. A question i usually ask in these threads is why are people so disapproving of women who take drugs during their pregnancy? Surely it's "her body, her choice" and they should be applauded for exercising their rights?

thebman · 23-01-2009 10:10am

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

There is a grey area I must admit. If someone punched a pregnant woman in the womb & directly caused her to miscarry I'd have to say it would be rough justice if he only got charged with punching a woman.

There is a clear reason why that is wrong over abortion.

He didn't have the woman's permission to punch her in the womb most likely. If he did then that's another, more bizarre story that isn't really likely to occur.

b3t4 · 23-01-2009 12:07pm

Here we go again eh?

And here I am, again, responding to such a daft thread that, always, goes round and round and circles. They say a sign of insanity is to do the same thing over and over again expecting different results. I think perhaps I'm insane

You know what I've learnt over the years. Abortion has not and will not go away whether there are 40 million threads like this or not. It's still there whether you like it or it. It still happens. It's been happening for thousands of years.

So, you know what I think, let's just get over it and help these vunerable women. Whatever about this 'baby' that doesn't exist in actuality, can we not simply look after the women who do or women simply mechanical incubators and nobody told me about it???

A.

ntlbell · 23-01-2009 12:12pm

b3t4 wrote: »

Here we go again eh?

And here I am, again, responding to such a daft thread that, always, goes round and round and circles. They say a sign of insanity is to do the same thing over and over again expecting different results. I think perhaps I'm insane

You know what I've learnt over the years. Abortion has not and will not go away whether there are 40 million threads like this or not. It's still there whether you like it or it. It still happens. It's been happening for thousands of years.

So, you know what I think, let's just get over it and help these vunerable women. Whatever about this 'baby' that doesn't exist in actuality, can we not simply look after the women who do or women simply mechanical incubators and nobody told me about it???

A.

so what you're saying is, ok they might be murdering/killing but can we not just brush that fact under the table lets ignore that part so we can get on with just doing it?

I see.

What should the penalty be for illegal abortions?

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