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M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,424 ✭✭✭cjpm


    I heard today that Arup are proposing to close Ivy Bridge, 3 miles north of Grenagh, just left of the N20. Iarnrod Eireann demolosed the old bridge years ago, and there was such public pressure they had to bulid a replacement. Now Arup are suggesting that this road should be closed, thus making the new bridge redundant!! Crazy stuff, if they just lowered the proposed M20 at that point an overbridge could be built and retain the Ivy Bridge. Problem solved!!:confused:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 254 ✭✭The Word Is Bor


    cjpm wrote: »
    I heard today that Arup are proposing to close Ivy Bridge, 3 miles north of Grenagh, just left of the N20. Iarnrod Eireann demolosed the old bridge years ago, and there was such public pressure they had to bulid a replacement. Now Arup are suggesting that this road should be closed, thus making the new bridge redundant!! Crazy stuff, if they just lowered the proposed M20 at that point an overbridge could be built and retain the Ivy Bridge. Problem solved!!:confused:

    This bridge then connect directly onto the existing N20, no? The M20 is proposing to use the existing N20 for the motorway therefore prohibiting access from this road.

    So you want the motorway lowered (meaning additional earthworks) so that an overbridge (meaning additional earthworks and an additional structure) can be built to where exactly?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,424 ✭✭✭cjpm


    Well if Ivy bridge was retained then it would not be necessary to build a new road from Ivy Bridge to Burnfort, east of the mainline (2K long) for the non-motorway traffic!! The idea of linking Ivy Bridge to Burnfort seems like a bit of a non runner due to the sleep valley just south of Burnfort, it would be ridiculous to send traffic that way due to the gradients that would be required!!

    The alternative route from Grenagh could be built west of the mainline, making it possible for the OLD Cork Mallow Road to be used for non-motorway traffic, and there would be no need to build an overbridge or lower the mainline. However Ivy Bridge may need to be widened on one side as it has a large skew currently.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,917 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    The Germans now only build motorways if the traffic numbers justify it.

    The Danes want to build a bridge between Puttgarden and Rodby, which would be a motorway bridge, linking Hamburg and Copenhagen.

    You'd think that such a route would need a motorway, but the Germans have looked at the traffic numbers and decided they'll leave the road on their side of the bridge as a single carriageway road for the forseeable future.

    That's the attitude they've adopted.

    If modern day German engineers had planned the Irish road system they wouldn't have built half of the motorways we have. "Sure we may as well build a motorway while we're at it" is not an argument in their book. Indeed, Ireland will soon have more motorway per capita than Germany.

    Don't agree with this. There's a major difference between Ireland and the UK/Germany/France. In Ireland, the secondary and distributor road network is horrific. In those other countries, it's great.

    In Germany, if a motorway is planned and then cancelled, you can ask the inhabitants to use the old road - which would be a WSC or possible even D2. In Ireland, that just isn't the case. The old road is frequently a winding country lane.

    We're not the same as Germany and we need to be creating a good network of roads that replaces our existing ones. Downgrading new road projects from motorway to SC is not the way to go.

    The M20 is vital.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,366 ✭✭✭IIMII


    cjpm wrote: »
    I heard today that Arup are proposing to close Ivy Bridge, 3 miles north of Grenagh, just left of the N20. Iarnrod Eireann demolosed the old bridge years ago, and there was such public pressure they had to bulid a replacement. Now Arup are suggesting that this road should be closed, thus making the new bridge redundant!! Crazy stuff, if they just lowered the proposed M20 at that point an overbridge could be built and retain the Ivy Bridge. Problem solved!!:confused:
    Sorry, don't know the area in question of the top of my head, though I've travelled the road. Could you explain a wee bit more?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,424 ✭✭✭cjpm


    IIMII wrote: »
    Sorry, don't know the area in question of the top of my head, though I've travelled the road. Could you explain a wee bit more?


    About 3 miles north of Grenagh the old Cork Mallow road still exists and runs parallel to the N20, its quite a good road,about 7.5m wide almost totally flat(i.e. no real gradient) and busy enough, a lot of people from Mourneabby use it to go to Cork, via Ivy Bridge (a relatively new road over rail bridge).

    Now Arup in all their wisdom have decided to neglect the fact that the old Cork Mallow road is ideal for an alternative route as its totally flat & good for heavy slow loads etc, and they are proposing to build a road to Burnfort, which is over 500ft above sea level to take all the non motorway traffic!!!

    It's nuts, the road to get to Burnfort drops into a deep valley with steep hills on either side. Why would you build a new road with 8% gradients if there's a totally flat alternative??!!??:confused:

    The mourneabby people who use Ivy Bridge will have to double back to get to cork as a result, it's b*llsh*t, i've a buddy from the area who's livid about it. (One of his neighbours met with Arup)
    I don't know any more...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 254 ✭✭The Word Is Bor


    Constraints Report and Route Selection Report available to download.http://www.corkrdo.ie/n20_cork_limerick_motorway_scheme_publications.php


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,082 ✭✭✭Chris_533976


    Thanks for those :) Dont think anyone will ever be able to sift through it all though!

    Edit: Doing searches of the PDFs for the word "toll" reveals nothing.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    cjpm wrote: »
    About 3 miles north of Grenagh the old Cork Mallow road still exists and runs parallel to the N20, its quite a good road,about 7.5m wide almost totally flat(i.e. no real gradient) and busy enough, a lot of people from Mourneabby use it to go to Cork, via Ivy Bridge (a relatively new road over rail bridge).

    Now Arup in all their wisdom have decided to neglect the fact that the old Cork Mallow road is ideal for an alternative route as its totally flat & good for heavy slow loads etc, and they are proposing to build a road to Burnfort, which is over 500ft above sea level to take all the non motorway traffic!!!

    It's nuts, the road to get to Burnfort drops into a deep valley with steep hills on either side. Why would you build a new road with 8% gradients if there's a totally flat alternative??!!??:confused:

    The mourneabby people who use Ivy Bridge will have to double back to get to cork as a result, it's b*llsh*t, i've a buddy from the area who's livid about it. (One of his neighbours met with Arup)
    I don't know any more...


    the old cork mallow road didnt run through Grenagh...are you sure you got that right? a map would help


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,045 ✭✭✭Húrin


    I'm not familiar with the N20, so I can't make any real recommendations for it, but I would be inclined to think that building an expensive motorway is overkill.
    E92 wrote: »
    No good 10 or 15 years time saying that we now need to upgrade the road again from say 2+1 or 2+2(as some propose) to DC because the traffic volumes have increased, we may not necessarily need a motorway from Cork to Limerick at the moment, but we sure as hell will need one in the future as if we don't already.

    Cork - Limerick is a disgrace for a road that is supposed to be connecting the second and third biggest cities in this country.

    What makes you think that motor traffic is going to increase over the next 15 years? Oil is cheap cos of the recession now, but its price trend is bound to be irreversibly upwards over the next few decades.

    Only by Irish standards are Cork and Limerick cities. Of course, the second and third cities of the UK, Germany and France need motorways connecting them, but it's not the same here.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 254 ✭✭The Word Is Bor


    Húrin wrote: »
    I'm not familiar with the N20, so I can't make any real recommendations for it, but I would be inclined to think that building an expensive motorway is overkill.



    What makes you think that motor traffic is going to increase over the next 15 years? Oil is cheap cos of the recession now, but its price trend is bound to be irreversibly upwards over the next few decades.

    Only by Irish standards are Cork and Limerick cities. Of course, the second and third cities of the UK, Germany and France need motorways connecting them, but it's not the same here.

    Why not have a read of Chapters 20 and 21? There is very little difference between a motorway and a dual carriageway. The motorway would be a strategic entity which should be more secure than a dual carriageway from the point of view of adjacent/ribbon development.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    Húrin wrote: »
    I'm not familiar with the N20, so I can't make any real recommendations for it, but I would be inclined to think that building an expensive motorway is overkill.



    What makes you think that motor traffic is going to increase over the next 15 years? Oil is cheap cos of the recession now, but its price trend is bound to be irreversibly upwards over the next few decades.

    Only by Irish standards are Cork and Limerick cities. Of course, the second and third cities of the UK, Germany and France need motorways connecting them, but it's not the same here.


    It's not just a road connecting Limerick and Cork,

    It connect's

    Irelands
    2nd
    3rd
    4th
    cities together

    Also connecting Cork port, Shannon Airport, Ennis and the Atlantic corridor. This route is a vital trunk route for the entire western Region.

    Traffic averages about 14,000 a day and has 13% H.G.V


    The road would be more expensive to rebuild. So a motorway seems to make more sense.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    N20 Northern Section Now Includes the N21 Adare Bypass and avoids a complex junction near Patrickswell . This necessitated a new route selection process for the Adare Bypass, submissions closed today .

    adare.jpg

    Brochure

    http://www.midwestroads.ie/N21%20Adare%20Bypass/Pdf/N21%20Public%20Consultation%20Brochure%20April%2009%20for%20Web.pdf


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,772 ✭✭✭Lennoxschips


    The green one looks the most logical one.

    The black one is the one that will get built as long as the developers are still in power.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    I agree with Lennoxschips. The green option should also be the cheapest to build by far.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    adare.jpg


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    well Ive only looked at the map but the black route looks better value for money...sligghtley longer than the green one but not overly as some of that shown black is already there....this option would be more streamlined and the N20/21 junction would be less of a botleneck imho.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭Irish and Proud


    mysterious wrote: »
    adare.jpg

    ...yeah, your route suggestion looks best IMO - A simple M20/M21 fork would suffice at the Eastern end - if not, a freeflow trumpet similar to the one at St Nessan's (R510) further up the N20 would be the perfect job.

    Well done mate! :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    corktina wrote: »
    well Ive only looked at the map but the black route looks better value for money...sligghtley longer than the green one but not overly as some of that shown black is already there....this option would be more streamlined and the N20/21 junction would be less of a botleneck imho.

    The black one is actualy very expensive, since some of it is an online upgrade, and it has many underbridges, overbridges to construct. It has to go over a river and a railway line twice also.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    what would you call that blue thing entering Adare from the south east then? maybe it dont need a bridge...a Ford perhaps will suffice?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 ✭✭✭BluntGuy


    Whatever happens, the M20/N21 (or M21 since I'm sure the segment leading to the motorway will be under motorway restrcitions) junction MUST be fully free-flow.

    No more stupid M7/M9 nonsense that will force certain traffic back onto old roads for no good reason. And please, no roundabouts...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    Whoever drew up the route options, obviously just got a pen, and went

    Oh lets just scribble a few lines in! Make sure the black line looks immaculate so the developers can build off my lovely black line.


    Serously who drew the Blue line ffs? Look at it worming all over the place and then only to meet the N21 at a right angle and facing North. for christ sake like?:rolleyes: If I drew that, I would seriously would expect people to think, I was taking the pisstake......


    Is it just me or something here, The routes are redicoulous. The N21 should be the purple route I purposed. It should have motorway restrictions, so the idea of joining it to a Stupid Dumbell at Croom Is a no go plan!


  • Registered Users Posts: 91 ✭✭clon


    Here is the link to the emerging prefered route for the Adare bypass, it is on display to the public in The Dunraven Arms hotel in Adare today.Not sure if link is working below.


    http://www.midwestroads.ie/N21%20Adare%20Bypass/Pdf/N21%20Public%20Brochure%20Preferred%20Route.pdf


  • Registered Users Posts: 577 ✭✭✭Typewriter


    clon wrote: »
    Here is the link to the emerging prefered route for the Adare bypass, it is on display to the public in The Dunraven Arms hotel in Adare today.Not sure if link is working below.


    http://www.midwestroads.ie/N21%20Adare%20Bypass/Pdf/N21%20Public%20Brochure%20Preferred%20Route.pdf

    picture.php?albumid=378&pictureid=3009

    :eek:


    EDIT: Brochure attached...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,082 ✭✭✭Chris_533976


    Anyone notice the 3 2 1 signs on that brochure are in motorway blue, but that its N21 dual carriageway with no mention of motorway???

    OOOPS :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,309 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    Build the black route on the bed of the railway line. It's never going to be reinstated and it's dishonest to pretend otherwise. Even if Foynes was to be reinstated as a railway port, it should be with a new coastal alignment rather than a dogleg via Adare.

    Obviously from a sustainability POV I would run a RegioCitadis from Colbert to Adare through Raheen but like I said - that ain't going to happen.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,419 ✭✭✭Cool Mo D


    dowlingm wrote: »
    Build the black route on the bed of the railway line. It's never going to be reinstated and it's dishonest to pretend otherwise. Even if Foynes was to be reinstated as a railway port, it should be with a new coastal alignment rather than a dogleg via Adare.

    Obviously from a sustainability POV I would run a RegioCitadis from Colbert to Adare through Raheen but like I said - that ain't going to happen.

    Would this really make construction any easier? A single track railway isn't going to fit a dual carriageway. And the line to Foynes is gone, but it's a possibility that a commuter service to Adare could be developed, or a direct line frm Limerick to Cork reinstated.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,047 ✭✭✭bill_ashmount


    mysterious wrote: »

    Serously who drew the Blue line ffs? Look at it worming all over the place and then only to meet the N21 at a right angle and facing North. for christ sake like?:rolleyes: If I drew that, I would seriously would expect people to think, I was taking the pisstake......


    :o

    Looks like they are going with it


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,082 ✭✭✭Chris_533976


    Actually the blue line pretty much guarantees full access junctions. They'll build either a trumpet or a dumbbell at the M20/21 junction. With the black line, you would get an M7/8 or M7/9 restricted junction.

    I dont know anything else about the area so cant comment more on the other options, but thats just what I've noticed.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭Tech3


    The blue route might be the longest but judging on the map less overbridges/underpasses have to be built. Thats why its curving in order to avoid crossing over a local road.


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