BER Cert ?

topcatcbr · 30-10-2008 12:12am

BER Certs are valid for 10 years

demoreino · 30-10-2008 12:23am

thanks for that.
no real need for a landlord to pass the cost on to a tenant at that rate.
500e over 10years is roughly 1euro per week.thnks again.

piscesmum · 04-11-2008 4:51pm

Have been reading All the posts with fascination. I'm in a rented property and have asked my landlord to provide a BER cert. So there's a guy coming tomorrow evening. The house is about 30 years old and like an icebox. He says it will only take an hour at the most and he says he won't need to go in the attic! Should I expect the guy to be wearing a cowboy hat when he arrives??

No6 · 04-11-2008 5:15pm

piscesmum wrote: »

Have been reading All the posts with fascination. I'm in a rented property and have asked my landlord to provide a BER cert. So there's a guy coming tomorrow evening. The house is about 30 years old and like an icebox. He says it will only take an hour at the most and he says he won't need to go in the attic! Should I expect the guy to be wearing a cowboy hat when he arrives??

Firstly there's no requirement for your landlord to provide you with a BER certificate, if you move out and someone else moves in after 1st Jan 2009 then he will be obliged to provide on.

Secondly the assessor shouldn't be a cowboy but you can check to make sure he's registered, ( he wouldn't be for existing buildings yet but we're all waiting for the SEI exam to get going) the software for assessing existing buildings is finally out so he can do the assessment, U values for existing houses are based on averages for the age of the house so thats probably why he dosn't need to look in the attic. Having a BER wouln't do much for you unless you decide to move house after January and then you can compare the assesed energy rating of the new house to your current one.

bakerbhoy · 04-11-2008 7:26pm

This ber cert for the existing stock looks like it's going to end up farsical.Using made up/guessed values will not take account of any upgrade etc to a property. You may as well ask for the electricity , home heating oil bills : at least you would have real figures against floor area,occupancy rates to arrive at a more accurate energy efficiency figure for a house , no need for any expensive software / course fees.
Unfortunately it will be cowboys at the gallop playing on the fears of the probably not so well informed general public

I don't have much confidence in a process that will downgrade the most energy efficient house built to the passive standard because it has only an element in a water vessel.This process( ber) while praiseworthy in it's aims has been overcomplicated and will probably be under regulated.
A prime time special in the making

topcatcbr · 04-11-2008 8:01pm

bakerbhoy wrote: »

This ber cert for the existing stock looks like it's going to end up farsical.Using made up/guessed values will not take account of any upgrade etc to a property.

You are intitled to your opinion however you are wrong on a number of issues
1. there are no Guessed made up figures. Most of the figures are taken from a visual survey and can clearly be seen with the eye. Those figures which cannot be seen. Assumptions are made based on the building regulations in force at that time.
2. Upgrades are taken into account as long as there is evedence to back up any claim. eg reciept from installer of pump in insulation.

bakerbhoy wrote: »

You may as well ask for the electricity , home heating oil bills : at least you would have real figures against floor area,occupancy rates to arrive at a more accurate energy efficiency figure for a house , no need for any expensive software / course fees.

The electricity or home heating oil bills dont tell the full storey and are less based on the effeciency of the building than the behaviour and expected comfort levels of the occupants. eg two identical homes. one family likes to have home heated all day and at a high temp second family works all day and only spend nights in home and heat at lower temp. try compare them using oil or esb bill.

bakerbhoy wrote: »

Unfortunately it will be cowboys at the gallop playing on the fears of the probably not so well informed general public

Unfair. We are prviding a service required by law not trying to sell anything or service to people who dont want or need it. Our job is to inform the public and give them the information to make educated decisions.

We didnt introduce law.

bakerbhoy wrote: »

I don't have much confidence in a process that will downgrade the most energy efficient house built to the passive standard because it has only an element in a water vessel.This process( ber) while praiseworthy in it's aims has been overcomplicated and will probably be under regulated.
A prime time special in the making

1. This scheme is anything but under regulated.
2. Passive house design is not what the scheme is about and the software is not a design tool.

No6 · 04-11-2008 8:09pm

Has anyone tried doing or importing a passive house into version 3 of the DEAP software, It may make a difference and begin to recognise the value of Passive houses. The assessors are starting to organise themselves as an association, I'm going to athlone on Thursday to see what the story is, Its in assessors interest to have a robust system with high standards and no cowboy's. The system is a bit of a blunt instrument as yet but will hopefully evolve further as time goes by.

bakerbhoy · 05-11-2008 12:29am

topcatcbr wrote: »

You are intitled to your opinion however you are wrong on a number of issues
1. there are no Guessed made up figures. Most of the figures are taken from a visual survey and can clearly be seen with the eye. Those figures which cannot be seen. Assumptions are made based on the building regulations in force at that time.
2. Upgrades are taken into account as long as there is evedence to back up any claim. eg reciept from installer of pump in insulation.

The electricity or home heating oil bills dont tell the full storey and are less based on the effeciency of the building than the behaviour and expected comfort levels of the occupants. eg two identical homes. one family likes to have home heated all day and at a high temp second family works all day and only spend nights in home and heat at lower temp. try compare them using oil or esb bill.

Unfair. We are prviding a service required by law not trying to sell anything or service to people who dont want or need it. Our job is to inform the public and give them the information to make educated decisions.

We didnt introduce law.

1. This scheme is anything but under regulated.
2. Passive house design is not what the scheme is about and the software is not a design tool.

Assumptions are the first mistake we all make. Who is to say what standards each house was built to. Probably best to know by whom the house was built.

I agree that individual habits / preferences are a factor in fuel/power usage and maybe that analogy is off the mark, but i remain unconvinced with a software programme that cannot accept /differenciate between low and high energy usage ie the passive house.It uses defaults that skew the results so it has inbuilt faults which will only raise their heads as more and more certs are done but how many will have a detremental effect on a houses rating affecting a rent level or sale/purchase price. (pi insurance) It would certainly be an excellent design tool, but with so many houses needing certs from jan 1st 2009 it could get very messy.Of the new houses built this year how many actually have been issued with certs,less than 10000 out of how may thousands of units.

How many assessors are actually construction professionals or at least with a reasonable contruction background.I am not having a potshot but from posts in the renewable forum ,there appears to be a broad range of people from other skill areas doing the courses and this would not inspire confidence,moreover someone posted about doing a assesment for a prospective purchaser on a house which already had a cert and the figures were not tallying ,hence my comment about the cowboys.
To sell or rent out a house/apartment , a cert will be needed and hundreds of thousands at that and how many certs are issued now.

Who will be responsible for regulation.
The software isn't up to much if it can't recognise energy efficency and it should be a design tool if it was up to scratch

This is only my opinion but strong action is required by a representitive body to ensure this new certification process gets a good positive start . If the general public get a sniff of mistrust/abuse with this system it will take years to clawback the damage .I don't think the system is fully ready to go just yet and a delay/refinement may even help it.Iron out the wrinkles etc. Best of luck to you all. I'm off to finish my house.

Patrickof · 05-11-2008 11:15am

On a DEAP 3 software note, has anyone located where the database that retains the completed house information is kept on your PC? I'm trying to keep a backup on a seperate drive but can't locate the database file.

I was told it was Access (so .mdb) but it might be an SQL file?

topcatcbr · 05-11-2008 7:24pm

Have you exported the results this is a folder you choose.

Patrickof · 06-11-2008 10:58am

I don't mean the exported results. I want to backup the entire database rather than have to export each dwellings data individually.

I can't find a databse file in the DEAP directory, so if I just back that up then I'm not sure I'm backing up my previously done homes.

topcatcbr · 06-11-2008 6:40pm

I dont know this

mrgaa1 · 07-11-2008 4:29pm

you can't get a cert yet for existing buildings as the exam has not yet been released - only cert you can get is for new dwellings.

sydthebeat · 07-11-2008 4:44pm

Patrickof wrote: »

On a DEAP 3 software note, has anyone located where the database that retains the completed house information is kept on your PC? I'm trying to keep a backup on a seperate drive but can't locate the database file.

I was told it was Access (so .mdb) but it might be an SQL file?

theres an update in the pipeline that will allow you access your DEAP 2.0 calculations in DEAP 3.0.......

topcatcbr · 07-11-2008 5:18pm

mrgaa1 wrote: »

you can't get a cert yet for existing buildings as the exam has not yet been released - only cert you can get is for new dwellings.

As from 17 Nov this changes. You can get a cert for existing dwellings from this date on.

Johnny Lamp · 04-12-2008 2:53pm

Seems to me the legal eagles are in the dark - does anyone believe this'll stop a sale closing?

Also many rental agreements never see a solicitor - just an agent and the landlord/tenant...

sydthebeat · 04-12-2008 3:29pm

Johnny Lamp wrote: »

Seems to me the legal eagles are in the dark - does anyone believe this'll stop a sale closing?

Also many rental agreements never see a solicitor - just an agent and the landlord/tenant...

in todays climate the renetr holds the power, so if the landlord wants to rent the premises, and hasnt got a cert if asked by the renter... theres less likelyhood the renter will rent...

Johnny Lamp · 04-12-2008 3:37pm

I agree they'd have the power, but teh average Joe renting out wants
- low rent
- good location
energy costs might be an afterthought,

I just can't see anyone getting excited

topcatcbr · 04-12-2008 6:20pm

When you renew your agreement ie offer it for rent or lease after 1st of jan 09 you need it then. If your current tennnant stays for the next 20 years or so you will not need one. However if you enter into an agreement after 1st Jan 09 without one you would be liable for a fine of €5000 not to mention if you fell out with your tennant and had to resort to legal action you wouldnt have done your part. There could be a big deal made of it then.

Its your money. You can take a chance if you like. Maybee a 3 or 4 hundred euro over 10 years rent is too much. Not even a months rent i think. Less than 10 cent a week.

Brenda Jordan · 06-12-2008 10:44am

BER's are good news for the home-owner / rentor and from January 1st - it'll be the law. Do the right thing and get a BER if you need it. It's not worth the risk.

bren33 · 11-01-2009 9:37pm

I am a landlord of 2 houses and got certs from an architect in <SNIP>. Not sure if I can post his details.

Great service and fast which at least took the sting out of having to get them in the first place. Prices gnerally seem to be €250 but he knocked a few bob off.

If anyone wants their details just pm me.

brianmacl · 12-01-2009 7:23pm

topcatcbr wrote: »

When you renew your agreement ie offer it for rent or lease after 1st of jan 09 you need it then. If your current tennnant stays for the next 20 years or so you will not need one. However if you enter into an agreement after 1st Jan 09 without one you would be liable for a fine of €5000 not to mention if you fell out with your tennant and had to resort to legal action you wouldnt have done your part. There could be a big deal made of it then.

Its your money. You can take a chance if you like. Maybee a 3 or 4 hundred euro over 10 years rent is too much. Not even a months rent i think. Less than 10 cent a week.

Part 3 of SI 666 uses the phrase "offered for sale or to let" but in Ireland properties are not offered for sale, estate agents "invite to treat"

. It seems that this legislation was copied and pasted over from the legislation that that brought in the Energy Rating certs for Electrical Appliances. Basicaly I don't know if SEI could do anyone for not having a BER Assesment carried out before putting a place on the market for sale or rent unless they do some rewritting of legislation pronto.

by the way did anyone see this weeks Sunday Times and the thing about assessments or hear Mat Cooper this evening, missed both of them.

brianmacl · 12-01-2009 9:45pm

bren33 wrote: »

I am a landlord of 2 houses and got certs from an architect in <SNIP>. Not sure if I can post his details.

Great service and fast which at least took the sting out of having to get them in the first place. Prices gnerally seem to be €250 but he knocked a few bob off.

If anyone wants their details just pm me.

Just wondering did that include VAT and the SEI charge?

ben bedlam · 12-01-2009 10:07pm

An assessor friend of mine says he does BERs for €225 inclusive of SEI fee (no VAT needed). He says people wont pay more than €250 for one

No6 · 12-01-2009 10:17pm

brianmacl wrote: »

Part 3 of SI 666 uses the phrase "offered for sale or to let" but in Ireland properties are not offered for sale, estate agents "invite to treat" . It seems that this legislation was copied and pasted over from the legislation that that brought in the Energy Rating certs for Electrical Appliances. Basicaly I don't know if SEI could do anyone for not having a BER Assesment carried out before putting a place on the market for sale or rent unless they do some rewritting of legislation pronto.

by the way did anyone see this weeks Sunday Times and the thing about assessments or hear Mat Cooper this evening, missed both of them.

I heard the matt cooper interview, check out the DEAp/BER thread in the renewables section!!

bren33 · 12-01-2009 10:45pm

no vat applicable, and it did include the SEI charge.

Builderfromhell · 13-01-2009 7:12pm

Is it not a legal obligation to charge VAT?
Also, I expect the fees are tax deductible to the Landlord.

RKQ · 13-01-2009 7:15pm

Check with Tax Office.
VAT not charged if you earn less than €37,500 p.a.

Matt asked about the various costs of BER certs, costing up to €350. Minister Gormley heard from his Office & SEI that BER certs cost €170! Competition is out there!
He stated this on 102fm Matt Cooper tonight.

No6 · 13-01-2009 7:42pm

SEI will charge VAT @ 21.5% on the 25 euro charge. Well done Minister Gormley he probably didn't say thats thats for a bedsit!!, I've seen prices out there nice low costs for a tiny bedsit, sorry studio appartment!!, after that it goes up!!!

But what I really want to know is who is the Satinist who brought in this BER legislation SI 666 does that not worry anybody??, brings to mind green satinists sacraficing cabbages!!!!

(this should possibly be moved to the conspiricy theory thread!!!:D)

brianmacl · 13-01-2009 11:05pm

RKQ wrote: »

Check with Tax Office.
VAT not charged if you earn less than €37,500 p.a.

Matt asked about the various costs of BER certs, costing up to €350. Minister Gormley heard from his Office & SEI that BER certs cost €170! Competition is out there!
He stated this on 102fm Matt Cooper tonight.

`

I think it is actually turn over less than €37,500 as opposed to earning less than €37,500

I think the price is not the only consideration, or maybe I am wrong?
Surely people will be interested in the quality of the assessor, if the assessor will make recomendations while carrying out an assesment advise on minor works that could be carried out with little effort, time or money but could change the rating from, lets say, D1 to C3 most people will only see the D or the C so it could be worth while, especially if the Assessor will hold re assess your property for free or very little to check works have been carried out.

Does €175 - 250 all in sound fair?

I wonder did Mr Gormley price include VAT and the SEI fee? a lot of places I have been speaking to started out giving out prices without VAT and the SEI fee inclueded and then added it on once they got you interested.

I have to say I love the way that the legislation is SI 666 from 2006. it is quite appropriate for a bit a legislation that isn't very well written, vague and full of holes. It isn't quite as bad as the Private Residential Tenancies Act 2004 but it is close.:rolleyes:

BER Cert ?

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