Top Garda calls for politer policing

Eru · 07-01-2009 10:39AM

Traumadoc wrote: »

I charge for signing of insurance forms- ( it goes into a staff education fund) If I go to a solicitor to and ask for a form to be signed I would expect to be charged.
Gardai should be no different.

I like this idea provided the cash was going to a specific fund for charity or local projects, etc

santosubito · 07-01-2009 02:15PM

When I'm at a crime scene, more and more young gardai are openly rude. I'd go as far as to describe them as aggressive. I've been concerned by this for some time. Neither I nor any other reporter I talk to seems to have a problem with members with a good amount of service. It just seems to be younger ones who lose the head and threaten to arrest you if you don't leave the scene. It's quite depressing, actually. There's no need for it. And if they lose the head with a reporter who's only doing his or her job, in what other circumstances are they going to be so aggressive?
As an aside, I would know Martin Donnellan and he was always the epitome of politeness when reporters rang him. He wouldn't say anything that would compromise an investigation, but he would help you out if he could. A true gentleman.

djtechnics1210 · 07-01-2009 09:53PM

I never have a problem with press etc and scenes, in fact I actually believe that the press can be very helpful with information they hear regarding crime.
I know a lot of Garda that dont like a certain reporter though...... C_SACK. But in fairness he brings most of it on himself.

santosubito · 07-01-2009 10:03PM

djtechnics1210 wrote: »

I never have a problem with press etc and scenes, in fact I actually believe that the press can be very helpful with information they hear regarding crime.
I know a lot of Garda that dont like a certain reporter though...... C_SACK. But in fairness he brings most of it on himself.

Jim doesn't go to scenes any more - he's too old.:D

eroo · 07-01-2009 10:12PM

djtechnics1210 wrote: »

I never have a problem with press etc and scenes, in fact I actually believe that the press can be very helpful with information they hear regarding crime.
I know a lot of Garda that dont like a certain reporter though...... C_SACK. But in fairness he brings most of it on himself.

That's because 1 minute he is praising the Gardai and saying they face an uphill struggle, the next he is pointlessly writing about gay Gardai as if it was uncommon and how the OCU is a band of wild young Gardai on secondment from their stations!:rolleyes:

Eru · 08-01-2009 12:08AM

santosubito wrote: »

When I'm at a crime scene, more and more young gardai are openly rude. I'd go as far as to describe them as aggressive. I've been concerned by this for some time. Neither I nor any other reporter I talk to seems to have a problem with members with a good amount of service. It just seems to be younger ones who lose the head and threaten to arrest you if you don't leave the scene. It's quite depressing, actually. There's no need for it. And if they lose the head with a reporter who's only doing his or her job, in what other circumstances are they going to be so aggressive?
As an aside, I would know Martin Donnellan and he was always the epitome of politeness when reporters rang him. He wouldn't say anything that would compromise an investigation, but he would help you out if he could. A true gentleman.

Well maybe you should stop chasing us around talking about our personal lives, making tabloid judgements on us and generally telling the world what useless, murdering and corrupt bastards we all are!

Sorry but if journalists want professional courtesy they should have thought about that before they decided Gardai were fair game for all manner of unfair and biased stories.

santosubito · 08-01-2009 03:04PM

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Well maybe you should stop chasing us around talking about our personal lives, making tabloid judgements on us and generally telling the world what useless, murdering and corrupt bastards we all are!

Sorry but if journalists want professional courtesy they should have thought about that before they decided Gardai were fair game for all manner of unfair and biased stories.

Chasing you around? Don't think that happens. Personal lives? Don't think thah happens, either.
Telling the world that ye're useless? That does happen, but that's usually when someone does something useless. But more often than not, press coverage is largely pro Garda.

Well, actually, yes I would like professional courtesy. It would be nice. Tell you what, why don't you stop generalising about reporters and we'll stop generalising about you.

Whitewater-AGS · 08-01-2009 05:07PM

santosubito wrote: »

Chasing you around? Don't think that happens. Personal lives? Don't think thah happens, either.
Telling the world that ye're useless? That does happen, but that's usually when someone does something useless. But more often than not, press coverage is largely pro Garda.

Well, actually, yes I would like professional courtesy. It would be nice. Tell you what, why don't you stop generalising about reporters and we'll stop generalising about you.

Chasing us around might not happen but bringing our personal lives to the press does and its happens alot! Anyone remember the headline "garda dies while giving birth"?

What does it matter that the poor woman in question was a member? would the paper have printed receptionist, i think not.

As for being threatened with arrest for being on a scene, the member is perfectly correct in doing so you've no business being on a scene, we secure these for that reason. I'll always turn my back to press when they are taking pictures of a scene cause i dont want my picture in the star the following day and if asked questions on a scene by press i simply dont say a word back.

Now back to the point, in my dealings with the public i TRY treat them with respect but some people just dont give up, with these people I become overly nice, which tend's to p*** them off even more

CLADA · 08-01-2009 05:10PM

santosubito wrote: »

Tell you what, why don't you stop generalising about reporters and we'll stop generalising about you.

When that happens I'll have to get the kids some extra crayons to draw on all those blank pages in the papers.

CLADA · 08-01-2009 05:12PM

Am I the only one wondering why Mr Donnellan didn't address this issue when he was in the job?

dredre · 08-01-2009 06:05PM

Whitewater-AGS wrote: »

Chasing us around might not happen but bringing our personal lives to the press does and its happens alot! Anyone remember the headline "garda dies while giving birth"?

What does it matter that the poor woman in question was a member? would the paper have printed receptionist, i think not.

Of course they would have. Or teacher, fireman, paramedic, nurse whatever. I think that case had added tragedy because it involved someone whose work involved helping others.

I don't see how you can interpret that as an affront to the Gardai.

eroo · 08-01-2009 06:27PM

dredre wrote: »

Of course they would have. Or teacher, fireman, paramedic, nurse whatever. I think that case had added tragedy because it involved someone whose work involved helping others.

I don't see how you can interpret that as an affront to the Gardai.

Yes but they also highlighted her husband who is also a member. I wont even repeat what was said in the article, as it quite frankly sickened me.

santosubito · 08-01-2009 07:10PM

Whitewater-AGS wrote: »

Chasing us around might not happen but bringing our personal lives to the press does and its happens alot! Anyone remember the headline "garda dies while giving birth"?

What does it matter that the poor woman in question was a member? would the paper have printed receptionist, i think not.

As for being threatened with arrest for being on a scene, the member is perfectly correct in doing so you've no business being on a scene, we secure these for that reason. I'll always turn my back to press when they are taking pictures of a scene cause i dont want my picture in the star the following day and if asked questions on a scene by press i simply dont say a word back.

Now back to the point, in my dealings with the public i TRY treat them with respect but some people just dont give up, with these people I become overly nice, which tend's to p*** them off even more

A few points: You are absolutely right about the case you mention. I did not see the relevance whatsoever. I argued against the story, somewhat successfully, in the outlet I work for. The way the Sunday Independent handled it was a disgrace, however. As people will know they dragged her husband in to it. One of the saddest things I've heard in my job is that the husband, perhaps a day after this tragedy, was in talking to the Garda Press Officer about it. That was the last thing he should have had to have done. And I blame us, the media, for that. That was outrageous on our part.
(To another poster, I would argue the fact she was a garda would have been mentioned, like a hairdresser, receptionist or whatever. But it would not have been the focus of the story).
But can anyone think of any other examples of people bringing members' personal lives into things? I certainly can't.
Perhaps I need to clarify, but I, obviously, did not mean journalists on or in crime scenes getting hassle from gardai. That would just be silly. What reporter in their right mind is going to cross into a scene? I meant at scenes, behind the cordon, with everyone else. It's happening more and more and there is no need for it. It just creates bad blood.
But, Karlito, if you feel animosity to reporters in general because of a few bad eggs, that's fine.
By all means turn your back on the photographers: all they want is a Garda in the picture. When I'm there, the snappers usually ask the garda if he's okay with a pic. I see it all the time. And they do ask the Garda to run around to get his or her back in.

On your final point, I'm sure there are some muppet reporters who hope a Garda at a scene will blab, but I think they are few and far between. BUt we DO have business being there. It is our job to report on them.

TheNog · 08-01-2009 07:24PM

Ok everyone take a deep breath please. We can all agree that journalism and AGS have some bad apples so lets not generalise each others profession.

Dont want this thread to descend into a slagging match.

Whitewater-AGS · 08-01-2009 07:28PM

My apologies if I miss understood your point about being at "scenes". But the press do try and chance their arm with us alot and I personally take the dont speak to them at all approach, that includes the regular phone calls to the station asking "garda is there anything happening tonight"

On the point can anyone think of another example of personal lives being dragged into the media i'll post this link.
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/gardas-gay-club-visit-shows-new-face-of-the-force-1445698.html

Thats just another example that I could think of because it was highlighted in the Garda review, i'm sure other posters could think of more. I'm not trying to slag anyone off, and if its appearing that way please delete the post, just trying to show that our persnonal lifes do get dragged into the papers. A little off the original point i know.

Eru · 08-01-2009 07:54PM

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/letters/angry-at-gay-garda-article-1451283.html

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/gardas-gay-club-visit-shows-new-face-of-the-force-1445698.html

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/paedophile-ring-lured-teen-boy-on-gay-website-57261.html

http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2007/03/13/story27635.asp

http://www.village.ie/Society/Garda/Responsibility_for_Garda_should_be_taken_from_Justice/

http://www.village.ie/Society/Garda/Garda_%27stonewalling%27_Wheelock_family/

http://www.village.ie/Society/Garda/The_making_of_another_cover-up/

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/confusion-on-street-led-to-robocop-riot-scenes-500898.html

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/may-day-riot-costs-state-83641m-in-fees-and-claims-1428497.html

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/student-garda-faces-probe-over-crash-1586765.html

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/garda-caught-up-in-second-road-tragedy-1304165.html

In reference to the N7 crash, I remember tha Herald had it as the front page with a huge headline 'Garda in fatal car crash' and it was only in the second page that they eventually stated he wasnt the driver that caused the crash. There was also a newpaper article about a Garda on a dating website, it listed his his sexual likes and dislikes. Now please, how the hell is that newsworthy?

The simple fact is journalists see 'Garda' as a tagline to get a story more exposure and appear to be newsworthy when its really not. Of course theres profesional journalists and many that I like and read but again, theres a hell of a lot that arent.

youcrazyjesus! · 08-01-2009 08:14PM

Apart from the gay garda articles, the other stories, whatever the truth, absolutely have to be covered by the media. They wouldn't be doing their job if they didn't, anybody who thinks otherwise needs their head examined. You honestly believe they shouldn't cover a story in which a Garda was alleged to be a paedophile?

The source for the gay Garda story seems to be other Gardai too, maybe they should be the first port of call in the blame game.

It's disappointing to know that there are members of the force with a chip on their should over such things.

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/letters/angry-at-gay-garda-article-1451283.html

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/gardas-gay-club-visit-shows-new-face-of-the-force-1445698.html

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/paedophile-ring-lured-teen-boy-on-gay-website-57261.html

http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2007/03/13/story27635.asp

http://www.village.ie/Society/Garda/Responsibility_for_Garda_should_be_taken_from_Justice/

http://www.village.ie/Society/Garda/Garda_%27stonewalling%27_Wheelock_family/

http://www.village.ie/Society/Garda/The_making_of_another_cover-up/

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/confusion-on-street-led-to-robocop-riot-scenes-500898.html

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/may-day-riot-costs-state-83641m-in-fees-and-claims-1428497.html

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/student-garda-faces-probe-over-crash-1586765.html

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/garda-caught-up-in-second-road-tragedy-1304165.html

In reference to the N7 crash, I remember tha Herald had it as the front page with a huge headline 'Garda in fatal car crash' and it was only in the second page that they eventually stated he wasnt the driver that caused the crash. There was also a newpaper article about a Garda on a dating website, it listed his his sexual likes and dislikes. Now please, how the hell is that newsworthy?

The simple fact is journalists see 'Garda' as a tagline to get a story more exposure and appear to be newsworthy when its really not. Of course theres profesional journalists and many that I like and read but again, theres a hell of a lot that arent.

santosubito · 08-01-2009 09:13PM

Whitewater-AGS wrote: »

My apologies if I miss understood your point about being at "scenes". But the press do try and chance their arm with us alot and I personally take the dont speak to them at all approach, that includes the regular phone calls to the station asking "garda is there anything happening tonight"

On the point can anyone think of another example of personal lives being dragged into the media i'll post this link.
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/gardas-gay-club-visit-shows-new-face-of-the-force-1445698.html

Thats just another example that I could think of because it was highlighted in the Garda review, i'm sure other posters could think of more. I'm not trying to slag anyone off, and if its appearing that way please delete the post, just trying to show that our persnonal lifes do get dragged into the papers. A little off the original point i know.

No probem. My sister in law is a garda: I always tell her never, ever to talk to a reporter at a scene, apart from to say: "I must refer you to the press office". She could innocently say something that could be splashed all overv the place in a few minutes. That's if the reporter chances his arm. I'm just talking about common courtesy. That's all mst of us want. As someone who is at such scenes more than most reporters I rarely see any hack trying to get a comment from someone there. Most of them, or us, know its pointless and silly.
Now, one the case you highlighted, Cusack obvsiously got it from other gardai. And, I have to say, nobody's personal life was opened up there: it was an anonymous officer. It is arguable that it was important that a garda of rank could go to a gay bar. Do yo think it could have happened a decade ago?

santosubito · 08-01-2009 09:33PM

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/letters/angry-at-gay-garda-article-1451283.html

(I think this one was a valid story if it was trying to raise the fact that senior gardai aren't afraid to be named: anyway, who was named?)

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/gardas-gay-club-visit-shows-new-face-of-the-force-1445698.html

(As above)

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/paedophile-ring-lured-teen-boy-on-gay-website-57261.html

(Again, a valid story. You think not?)

http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2007/03/13/story27635.asp

http://www.village.ie/Society/Garda/Responsibility_for_Garda_should_be_taken_from_Justice/

(This is nothing more than a rant. How is it personal?)

http://www.village.ie/Society/Garda/Garda_%27stonewalling%27_Wheelock_family/

(Nothing personal there, either. It may be skewed and slanted, but it's not personal.)

http://www.village.ie/Society/Garda/The_making_of_another_cover-up/

(Same again.)

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/confusion-on-street-led-to-robocop-riot-scenes-500898.html

News

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/may-day-riot-costs-state-83641m-in-fees-and-claims-1428497.html

Hard news

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/student-garda-faces-probe-over-crash-1586765.html

(Hard news. Is it relevant he is a student Garda? Absolutely.)

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/garda-caught-up-in-second-road-tragedy-1304165.html

In reference to the N7 crash, I remember tha Herald had it as the front page with a huge headline 'Garda in fatal car crash' and it was only in the second page that they eventually stated he wasnt the driver that caused the crash. There was also a newpaper article about a Garda on a dating website, it listed his his sexual likes and dislikes. Now please, how the hell is that newsworthy?

I'll tell you why they're both newsworthy. I remmeber the sex one. A Garda goes online and posts pictures of himsef IN UNIFORM asking for sex. That's not newsworthy? D'ya think he could have compromised himself or the force by what he was doing? Could he have opened himself up to blackmail? All he had to do was put up a photo of himself wearing a Man Utd top and there would have been no story. He chose to put up his pic from Templemore.
And how is the crash story not newsworthy? Even on a human level, a garda endures one crash and has another one. The most salient fact for me is the fact that the man killed in the crash on New Year's Day was a relative of the fella whgo crashed into the garda.
That's a huge story - the coincidence alone.

The simple fact is journalists see 'Garda' as a tagline to get a story more exposure and appear to be newsworthy when its really not. Of course theres profesional journalists and many that I like and read but again, theres a hell of a lot that arent.

The same applies to soldiers, solicitors, lawyers, judges, teachers, priests, GAA managers, politicians...even journalists.
If I was done for drink driving, for example, every paper and station in Dublin would be after me. I'm not well known at all, I'm a nobody really. But I'm a journalist who knows other journalists - they'd kill me in a heartbeat.
Do you think Brian Curtin, or Tim Allen, would have had as much media coverage over Operation Amethyst were it not for their occupations?
So, in essence, gardai are not special: lots of jobs get media attention - even journalists.
Google Frank Hamilton the journalist from Limerick and you'll see what I mean.

djtechnics1210 · 08-01-2009 10:33PM

And in the case of "Garda Sergeant dies giving birth". The paper concerned then went off and continued the story with pieces about her husband, and gave his whole life story about how he was in the ERU and about him being one of the members that shot John Carthy in Abbeylara.
What in the name of good god did her husbands past have to do with such a tragic incident.
I have still to this day never bought another issue of that paper concerned or have any of my unit and a lot of other units for that matter.

santosubito · 08-01-2009 11:09PM

I agree with you. Anway, this thread is about the Garda attitude, not the meeja. I'll leave ye to it.

TheNog · 09-01-2009 07:30AM

Alright people this is the last warning. Move away from this topic for good.

FGR · 09-01-2009 09:46AM

Don't forget, TheNog. You need to police politely around here!

I try my best to be polite to people but yes like a lot of you I've experienced colleagues who would take a completely different (and sometimes embarassing) approach to issues. Overall though I find this very rare. And long may it stay that way!

santosubito · 09-01-2009 12:02PM

TheNog wrote: »

Alright people this is the last warning. Move away from this topic for good.

Move along, nothing to see here...

I'm here all week.

eroo · 09-01-2009 02:36PM

ForegoneReality wrote: »

Don't forget, TheNog. You need to police politely around here!

I try my best to be polite to people but yes like a lot of you I've experienced colleagues who would take a completely different (and sometimes embarassing) approach to issues. Overall though I find this very rare. And long may it stay that way!

If you saw a colleague being incredibly rude or handling a situation in an embarrassing way, would you pull them aside later?

FGR · 10-01-2009 03:52AM

Normally ask them what the story was about - whether he knew the person from another incident or whether there was something suspicious that I didn't detect. I wouldn't want to start a war with a colleague who I could be patrolling with for the next number of years so I always somehow manage to get my point across, subtly.

Abraham · 11-01-2009 11:31AM

ForegoneReality wrote: »

Normally ask them what the story was about - whether he knew the person from another incident or whether there was something suspicious that I didn't detect. I wouldn't want to start a war with a colleague who I could be patrolling with for the next number of years so I always somehow manage to get my point across, subtly.

There is an honesty in that reply that should not be ignored. Within it lies the reason why the Guards were not good at investigating themselves and indeed indicated the existence of a 'canteen culture' that has cost them dearly.
Perhaps one of the offending Guards in the Donegal Tribunal encapsulated it best when he told the Judge during his testimony "you don't dump on your own people" or words to that effect. His demeanour, candour, forthrightness, etc showed that this was the credo by which he lived !
And that guy was one of their representatives !!
One wonders if any light has seeped through in the meantime that we, the taxpayers, might regard as helping to allay our fears ?

FGR · 11-01-2009 03:13PM

Abraham wrote: »

There is an honesty in that reply that should not be ignored. Within it lies the reason why the Guards were not good at investigating themselves and indeed indicated the existence of a 'canteen culture' that has cost them dearly.
Perhaps one of the offending Guards in the Donegal Tribunal encapsulated it best when he told the Judge during his testimony "you don't dump on your own people" or words to that effect. His demeanour, candour, forthrightness, etc showed that this was the credo by which he lived !
And that guy was one of their representatives !!
One wonders if any light has seeped through in the meantime that we, the taxpayers, might regard as helping to allay our fears ?

Here now. If something completely inappropriate or illegal was done by my colleague I would have him pulled for it. There's new guidelines in existence for this to be reported and dealt with thoroughly.

Although I do get what you're saying and in no way am I denying that this went on in Donegal - there's a big difference between someone having a different approach when speaking with people and being a bully/criminal.

deadwood · 11-01-2009 03:48PM

Abraham wrote: »

There is an honesty in that reply that should not be ignored. Within it lies the reason why the Guards were not good at investigating themselves and indeed indicated the existence of a 'canteen culture' that has cost them dearly.
Perhaps one of the offending Guards in the Donegal Tribunal encapsulated it best when he told the Judge during his testimony "you don't dump on your own people" or words to that effect. His demeanour, candour, forthrightness, etc showed that this was the credo by which he lived !
And that guy was one of their representatives !!
One wonders if any light has seeped through in the meantime that we, the taxpayers, might regard as helping to allay our fears ?

(In the interests of fair discussion I think you should post a quote for the above statement)

Is any job different?

Look at all that has happened since Donegal, Abbeylara etc. They could, of course, have been handled better but the Ombudsman, Inspectorate (and its recommendations) have arisen out of lessons learned there and believe me, the job is a lot different now than even five years ago. These have been trashed out before and this thread isn't about that.

The Church, the Oireachteas, Planners, Banks etc. are all guilty of gross misconduct over the years and we'll tut and moan without doing anything.

The Gardai are guilty of misconduct but have jumped through hoops to rectify this - and so they should.

However, the public have an avenue to pursue if they are not happy with the service they receive from a Garda - even if it's a simple thing like looking scruffy, failing to say hello or driving a dirty patrol car (happened to me).

As a public servant and tax payer, I fully support this. The petty/nuisance complaints will be dealt with accordingly and the serious ones will be investigated with the full rigour of the law and then some.

Yes, Guards can be rude, abrupt, lazy, incompetent. So can T.D.s, Teachers, Doctors, Council Workers, Shop Assistants and every other worker. When's the last time you complained about a worker and followed it through to ensure that they were disciplined to your satisfaction?

The difference is, some people will always jump at an opportunity to expose the slightest wrong committed by us because we are accessible, we're there on the ground and accountale and are seen as a body which is an instrument of the state which has done some people some wrong, rather than seen as individuals.

If I defend my colleagues, i'm defending the vast majority of guards who want to do some good. No guard ever went to the media to defend what happened in Donegal, or indeed the individuals involved - they will defend the rest of us though, and rightly so - even at the risk of being acused of erecting a wall of silence.

Sully · 11-01-2009 04:54PM

I know plenty of young and older Gardai in the force from around the South East. Most of them that I know are some of the nicest people who are both friendly, helpful and manerly. Your always going to get a sample of people who will say that Gardai are X, Y and Z even if they are not. Simply because they have no respect for the Guards.

In recent years I have lost some faith in the Gardai. Some which I have had dealings with for different issues I found either rude or unhelpful. Most of the time it seems to be with the younger Gardai. I know of a couple who were extremely rude. There are ways and means of dealing with people when it comes to even smaller issues but it seems that some of the force go overboard - perhaps to put the fear factor in but christ there are times when that needs to be done and it most certinally isnt over small issues.

Definately the Guards need to have a fresh approach when dealing with the public based soley on the experiences I have had. Nothing against the Guards personally, just had a few bad experiences but I guess it weighs out with the good experiences!

Top Garda calls for politer policing

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