Top Garda calls for politer policing

eroo

By JIM CUSACK

Sunday January 04 2009

ONE of most successful and longest-serving detectives in the garda has called on young gardai to show deference to the public and advised them to treat ex-criminals or criminals' families humanely.

Former assistant commissioner Martin Donnellan was speaking on the Marian Finucane Show on RTE Radio One yesterday and told how he found himself in a "lonely place" when he challenged the compulsory retirement age of 60 for senior gardai.

He was scathing about some of his former colleagues who, he said, were all for extending the retirement age but did not support him in the costly six-day High Court case. He referred to some of his former colleagues as "hurlers on the ditch".

The State won the case to retain the compulsory retirement age of 60 for senior gardai and Mr Donnellan was subsequently left to pay his own expenses, unsupported by any of the garda representative associations.

Mr Donnellan's remarks about young gardai showing better manners to the public comes amid repeated findings from surveys that one of the biggest problems the public find with gardai is rudeness and lack of civility.

He said he had recently shared an interview panel with a civil servant who lived in Drumcondra and who had told him that he had passed by a young garda and had said "Good morning garda" and that the young guard had made no reply.

"He would be highly insulted that a young guard would not reply to him like that," he said. Gardai should also treat the families of criminals "with a bit of dignity" and they would find these people would be helpful in the future.

Mr Donnellan said "common sense" was the most important element of being a "good guard" and recounted an inspector who had mentored him when he was a young garda in Dublin.

"This old inspector said to me when I was a young guard in the Bridewell: 'How are you getting on here sonny' and I said I was getting on OK. He said 'Look this job is all about common sense'.

"He was smoking a pipe. He said: 'Sit down here sonny. The longer you are in this job, you will find that common sense is not that common at all'."

- JIM CUSACK

Now, I know this subject has been mentioned before but I wanted to get the opinions and experiences of serving/former Gardai, as well as other members of the emergency services and members of public.

Is it really mainly younger Gardai who lack manners? I disagree. I think it just depends on the person. Example, the Garda who filled the form for my age card was pretty ignorant. Rather than converse, he decided that grunts were the most appropriate reply to me. On the flip side, we had a young Garda helping us at the match last night. He didn't have to help us steward but he did. Very helpful, chatty and overall quite approachable. .helped us out to no end!

But what have other posters here experienced, whether it's dealing with Gardai over the phone or in person?

seanybiker

Dont have much dealings with the guards to be honest. I remember my father saying though that before he retired that he found a good few of the young guards been a little power mad. Not all of the young ones. He just found thought they didnt have the common sense of been nice to people aint hard. Normally after a few months they calm down.

Sierra Oscar

Anyone know where the podcast is? I cant seem to see it here.

TheNog

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Anyone know where the podcast is? I cant seem to see it here.

try this one


I agree with Martin Donnellan. I have seen it first hand where some mules have been so ignorant it was embarrasing to say the least.

donvito99

Anytime I have ever dealt with a guard they have been very polite and helpful. IMO, the Gardai are more community orientated then other Police Services, because of smaller stations etc which in my view would mean that the vast majority of Gardai know the community, their traits, and therefore be polite. For some reason I find that Gardai working speed checks and anything to do with traffic to be more wound up then other Gardai, maybe its the cold, wet and windy conditions or the somewhat monotonous post that they have for the day. I have nothing against the Traffic Corps by the way!

Sierra Oscar

TheNog wrote: »

try this one


I agree with Martin Donnellan. I have seen it first hand where some mules have been so ignorant it was embarrasing to say the least.

Ahh cheers, although Real Player annoys me.:(

donvito99

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Ahh cheers, although Real Player annoys me.:(

Yeah, I have RealPlayer installed and it still won't let me look at anything.

Marcus.Aurelius

Does anyone think the ignorance (as described by OP and TheNog) is moreso to do with the drop in standards we have all witnessed with regard to intake? The job used to be much more sort of middle class (still was when I joined in the early 1980s), that is definitely changing.

Sierra Oscar

I am also of the opinion that the lack of discretion in relation to some incidents, particularly with younger Gardai, is another factor in all of this.

geurrp the yard

House wrote: »

Does anyone think the ignorance (as described by OP and TheNog) is moreso to do with the drop in standards we have all witnessed with regard to intake? The job used to be much more sort of middle class (still was when I joined in the early 1980s), that is definitely changing.

Manners dont cost anything. Whats Class status got to with anything?

TheNog

House wrote: »

Does anyone think the ignorance (as described by OP and TheNog) is moreso to do with the drop in standards we have all witnessed with regard to intake? The job used to be much more sort of middle class (still was when I joined in the early 1980s), that is definitely changing.

I think that standards in recruitment and within the college could be better. We were told by many of the staff about discourteousy but I feel that some just didn't listen. There also seems to be still a bit of a "us against them" in some members which is wrong.

I see some members treating an awkward or loud prisoner with disdain, dealing with the public with a certain power tripping attitude or driving the patrol car while speeding and on the phone.

I think alot of it is down to the feckless attiude of many people not just within AGS but in society.

That's why I'm all in favour of this recession!!

deadwood

House wrote: »

Does anyone think the ignorance (as described by OP and TheNog) is moreso to do with the drop in standards we have all witnessed with regard to intake? The job used to be much more sort of middle class (still was when I joined in the early 1980s), that is definitely changing.

Those blue-collar types upsetting the natural order of things. No breeding amongst the working classes, House - they go to state-funded schools. Bless.

dredre

House wrote: »

Does anyone think the ignorance (as described by OP and TheNog) is moreso to do with the drop in standards we have all witnessed with regard to intake? The job used to be much more sort of middle class (still was when I joined in the early 1980s), that is definitely changing.

I see better manners in more 'working class' people than 'middle class'. I don't think it's got anything to do with 'class'.

eroo

House wrote: »

Does anyone think the ignorance (as described by OP and TheNog) is moreso to do with the drop in standards we have all witnessed with regard to intake?

Recent incidents would suggest that standards may have been lowered. There is an inquiry into Garda discipline in the Cavan/Monaghan districts, particularly young Gardai. Cusack had an article about it in the S'Indo last week. One alleged incident where a businessman had goods stolen and rang AGS, the young Garda on the other end replied with ''What do you want us to do about it?''. Another alleged incident being that 2 patrol cars were spotted outside a pub, with its occupants in the establishment drinking!! Personally I know of a few people who joined AGS in the last year, and I would've put them down as the sorts to be arrested rather than arresting. I think the big problem has been some people were applying solely because it's a secure job, State pension and for the title. When these sorts get in, I'd imagine they aren't the most polite people in the world!

Article:
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/gardai-rocked-by-new-malpractice-inquiry-1586777.html

Abraham

Martin Donnellan sounds like a decent and honourable person who respects others and gives respect. As such he represents a vanishing species.
Manners have a diminished value in the Irish society of the day. Address a female nowadays as 'Lady' and you will instantly be labelled as old style.
Most of the staff in the service industries now seem to be importswho work well but manners seem to be devoid in their makeup. They say little and usually respond in phrases as if they have difficulty in conversing.

Try queuing for a bus in O'Connell St , Dublin, Limerick, wherever and see what's happened to manners. Shop assistants no longer ask you 'can I help you?'.....now it's more 'whatja want? . Try ringing any of the state services and industry too and work your way through the maze of instructions issued to you by recorded voices who them ignore you and leave you hanging or cut you off relentlessly. So much for manners or what manners mean. User friendly, eh ??? Manners are just sooooo passe.

Why ? I think I'm being brutally honest when I say that in the greater scheme of things, manners are unimportant. Oh, they are nice to experience but in the rush to live the life what's really important is turnover and everything else is a poor second.

The Guards are a reflection of the society they spring from. They are empowered to administer the law and authorised to act when there's a deficit but today's Guards as Martin Donnellan implies are not much given to manners and more is the pity. Martin is probably from the old school alright and is right to mourn the slide towards mediocrity but then it's a national thing really.

But why are all our manners in decline in Ireland ?
Well, there are people in high places right across the spectrum of services and industry now who would not have been engaged as teamakers in days of yore and it all has to do with inclusiveness, the removal of glass ceilings, and the essential bias required to provide representation from a certain perspective and placate lobby groups. Overarching EU requirements are in there as well and contribute a lot toward the emerging standards in our society in the modern era. Appointees to senior management must be laden with laurels from academia which they invariably are these days but it has bugger all to do with being better at their jobs. Manners don't figure on any curriculum in the Ireland of today.

Martin Donnellan is right but he should not expect to be feted for pointing out these shortfalls. If he decides to engage in some activity in the business world as many in his position tend to do then he will find exactly the same situation pertains.

Eru

I agree a lot with what Abraham said above however I want to put another reason why Gardai are getting pissed off.

Just today I had another student ask me to sign and stamp a copy of her passport while also giving her a letter confirming her adress. I asked why she needed this done and the reply I got was "The college grant crowd said to ask for it".

Now, the stamping takes 5 seconds so its not the specific case that bothers me but the combined amount of work that is being, in all honesty, fobbed of to Gardai.

What exactly has a college grant got to do with me? Why am I doing the admin work for the colleges when its simpler for them to do their own work?

This is only one example. If pushed I could mention at least ten seperate examples of what I am covering everyday. Work that is being pushed onto the Gardai because some other agency, sector or business wont do their own work.

All this bull**** work that Gardai have to do takes us away from our real work which is too deal with crime. If theres no crime commited and its not a national security matter then it shouldnt really be in our hands and thats why I personally get pissed off when people shove a form in my face and say "The people in Makebelieve college / vodafone / county council / etc said you have to do it". No, I dont.

TheNog

I recently had a fella come into me with a form from Vodafone. He explained to me that he had dropped his phone at work (a building site) and Vodafone gave him this form for me to counter sign his declaration. Problem is the form is only for when the phone is lost or stolen. I took issue with because he clearly stated on the form that it was broken so he rang them from the station and explained to them but they still wanted it signed. I spoke with the lady who was lost for words and got her Supervisor or manager. He too was lost for words when I explained to him that to sign a false declaration was an offence and Vodafone could prosecute him if they so wished.

Splitting hairs I know but as Karlito said things like that get up my wick.

djtechnics1210

I think a lot of it has to do with when students are on placements etc. Tutors before were mostly members with a good bit of service and they would always clip a newbies heals if they were acting like that... nowadays though tutors are barely out of probation themselves.
Also units used to have actual senior men that would take control of a unit and sort out the kind of rubbish you hear people get up to on units. Nowadays a senior man could be a member with 3 years service. When i arrived on my first unit, our senior man had 18 years service, the second most senior man had 12 years service and the third had 10 years. A lot of experience between them to share with us newbies when we arrived. And they definitely wouldn't put up with anyone being hot headed or bad mannered.

jackregan

A lack of basics, such as manners towards the public, is simply one symptom of a general lack of adequate supervision and accountability.

While an experience deficit on units might not help matters, it does not explain the ultimate cause or, more importantly, the failure of AGS to address this issue.

jackregan

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

I agree a lot with what Abraham said above however I want to put another reason why Gardai are getting pissed off.

And the general public aren't interested in why gardai are getting pissed off. Professionalism is not bringing your bad day to your next call for assistance, whatever that may be.

dredre

jackregan wrote: »

And the general public aren't interested in why gardai are getting pissed off. Professionalism is not bringing your bad day to your next call for assistance, whatever that may be.

I hope you never have to manage people. If you don't address the cause, it's a bit difficult. You can't just say that people (in any line of work, not just the Gardai) should be 'more professional' and expect it to happen. They are still people after all.

Abraham

One measure that would certainly sort out the bad manners issue and allegations thereof etc in the Garda Station Offices would be the introduction of CCTV at the counter level. That would force the Guards to be better behaved and probably induce better behaviour with Joe Public as well who is immediately aware that the interaction is being recorded. It's a sure fire straightener for messers whether they be inside or outside the counter while the guards who are true professionals and well able to handle the public in their various scenarios will shine.

If I were in Garda management or even as a supervisor, I'd be all on for this to be done given the number of complaints that seem to be levelled at the Force these days.

drunkmonkey

TheNog wrote: »

a form from Vodafone

I hope your getting comission....

I do think it's an age thing, and the Garda in general are all polite just like most people if your polite...:)

i remember watching the bill and when a new Boddy came on the beat they were walked around and introduced to the people and business in the local area, would that help make the new recruits feel a bit more involved in the community.... Operation Soft Landing;)

drunkmonkey

Abraham wrote: »

If I were in Garda management

If you were in Garda management it would be 1984:D

seanybiker

I dont see why a guard has to take out his/her problem with filling in a form for vodafone on the person asking for it to be filled in. Its not their fault a phone shop sent them to the guards. Fair enough the guards should not have to sign these stupid forms but that dont make it acceptable for the guard to get annoyed. If i got pulled over for speeding and got annoyed with the cop cos i was missing eastenders would he apologise and leave me off for been annoyed.

TheNog

seanybiker wrote: »

I dont see why a guard has to take out his/her problem with filling in a form for vodafone on the person asking for it to be filled in. Its not their fault a phone shop sent them to the guards. Fair enough the guards should not have to sign these stupid forms but that dont make it acceptable for the guard to get annoyed. If i got pulled over for speeding and got annoyed with the cop cos i was missing eastenders would he apologise and leave me off for been annoyed.

You are missing the point. Vodafone wanted me to witness this man make a legal declaration which is technically a false declaration cause the form is for lost or stolen phones only. His phone was broken not stolen or lost.

youcrazyjesus!

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Now, the stamping takes 5 seconds so its not the specific case that bothers me but the combined amount of work that is being, in all honesty, fobbed of to Gardai.

Then why whinge about it?

To the general question,

I've never had a problem with the Gardai as a whole. Between my car and one or two other things, I've had to deal with them a few times over the last few years and they've always been very helpful and decent. I've a lot of respect for them and I can honestly say that in almost very case you get the attitude back you give them and I've always had positive experiences in my adult life.

I'd blame individual mistakes on individuals and not the Gardai as a whole but not on one or two occasions when I was a teenager there were some incidents which make me understand why youths sometimes come to despise and distrust the Gardai. When I was younger, standing outside or near my own home, Gardai would come around, country Gardai who didn't know Dublin from Baghdad and start to question us about this and that. Where we lived, who we were, what we were doing and then the usual to "move on", literally standing 10 yards away from my front door. Once they even went to the trouble of confiscating copied CDs from our personal CD players because they said it was illegal, what kind of ignorant, counter-productive, power-tripping bull**** is that? Once or twice plain-clothes, armed Gardai arrived in cars and put up all of us against a wall, like we were all criminals, we were about 14, we were sitting around playing football at the time about 20 yards away from where we lived. It's instances like these which lead to typical attitudes towards Gardai, in Dublin anyway. I wouldn't harbour a grudge, especially towards country Gardai who didn't have a clue, but others might carry it on to adulthood and I understand. I don't think the Gardai should worry too much about their attitude with the general public, I would worry about their attitude with teenagers and youths. Not everyone is a criminal and most deserve the same level of respect as adults.

deadwood

eroo wrote: »

Now, I know this subject has been mentioned before but I wanted to get the opinions and experiences of serving/former Gardai, as well as other members of the emergency services and members of public.

Is it really mainly younger Gardai who lack manners? I disagree. I think it just depends on the person. Example, the Garda who filled the form for my age card was pretty ignorant. Rather than converse, he decided that grunts were the most appropriate reply to me. On the flip side, we had a young Garda helping us at the match last night. He didn't have to help us steward but he did. Very helpful, chatty and overall quite approachable. .helped us out to no end!

But what have other posters here experienced, whether it's dealing with Gardai over the phone or in person?

seanybiker wrote: »

Dont have much dealings with the guards to be honest. I remember my father saying though that before he retired that he found a good few of the young guards been a little power mad. Not all of the young ones. He just found thought they didnt have the common sense of been nice to people aint hard. Normally after a few months they calm down.

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Anyone know where the podcast is? I cant seem to see it here.

TheNog wrote: »

try this one


I agree with Martin Donnellan. I have seen it first hand where some mules have been so ignorant it was embarrasing to say the least.

donvito99 wrote: »

Anytime I have ever dealt with a guard they have been very polite and helpful. IMO, the Gardai are more community orientated then other Police Services, because of smaller stations etc which in my view would mean that the vast majority of Gardai know the community, their traits, and therefore be polite. For some reason I find that Gardai working speed checks and anything to do with traffic to be more wound up then other Gardai, maybe its the cold, wet and windy conditions or the somewhat monotonous post that they have for the day. I have nothing against the Traffic Corps by the way!

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Ahh cheers, although Real Player annoys me.:(

donvito99 wrote: »

Yeah, I have RealPlayer installed and it still won't let me look at anything.

House wrote: »

Does anyone think the ignorance (as described by OP and TheNog) is moreso to do with the drop in standards we have all witnessed with regard to intake? The job used to be much more sort of middle class (still was when I joined in the early 1980s), that is definitely changing.

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

I am also of the opinion that the lack of discretion in relation to some incidents, particularly with younger Gardai, is another factor in all of this.

geurrp the yard wrote: »

Manners dont cost anything. Whats Class status got to with anything?

TheNog wrote: »

I think that standards in recruitment and within the college could be better. We were told by many of the staff about discourteousy but I feel that some just didn't listen. There also seems to be still a bit of a "us against them" in some members which is wrong.

I see some members treating an awkward or loud prisoner with disdain, dealing with the public with a certain power tripping attitude or driving the patrol car while speeding and on the phone.

I think alot of it is down to the feckless attiude of many people not just within AGS but in society.

That's why I'm all in favour of this recession!!

deadwood wrote: »

Those blue-collar types upsetting the natural order of things. No breeding amongst the working classes, House - they go to state-funded schools. Bless.

dredre wrote: »

I see better manners in more 'working class' people than 'middle class'. I don't think it's got anything to do with 'class'.

eroo wrote: »

Recent incidents would suggest that standards may have been lowered. There is an inquiry into Garda discipline in the Cavan/Monaghan districts, particularly young Gardai. Cusack had an article about it in the S'Indo last week. One alleged incident where a businessman had goods stolen and rang AGS, the young Garda on the other end replied with ''What do you want us to do about it?''. Another alleged incident being that 2 patrol cars were spotted outside a pub, with its occupants in the establishment drinking!! Personally I know of a few people who joined AGS in the last year, and I would've put them down as the sorts to be arrested rather than arresting. I think the big problem has been some people were applying solely because it's a secure job, State pension and for the title. When these sorts get in, I'd imagine they aren't the most polite people in the world!

Article:
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/gardai-rocked-by-new-malpractice-inquiry-1586777.html

Abraham wrote: »

Martin Donnellan sounds like a decent and honourable person who respects others and gives respect. As such he represents a vanishing species.
Manners have a diminished value in the Irish society of the day. Address a female nowadays as 'Lady' and you will instantly be labelled as old style.
Most of the staff in the service industries now seem to be importswho work well but manners seem to be devoid in their makeup. They say little and usually respond in phrases as if they have difficulty in conversing.

Try queuing for a bus in O'Connell St , Dublin, Limerick, wherever and see what's happened to manners. Shop assistants no longer ask you 'can I help you?'.....now it's more 'whatja want? . Try ringing any of the state services and industry too and work your way through the maze of instructions issued to you by recorded voices who them ignore you and leave you hanging or cut you off relentlessly. So much for manners or what manners mean. User friendly, eh ??? Manners are just sooooo passe.

Why ? I think I'm being brutally honest when I say that in the greater scheme of things, manners are unimportant. Oh, they are nice to experience but in the rush to live the life what's really important is turnover and everything else is a poor second.

The Guards are a reflection of the society they spring from. They are empowered to administer the law and authorised to act when there's a deficit but today's Guards as Martin Donnellan implies are not much given to manners and more is the pity. Martin is probably from the old school alright and is right to mourn the slide towards mediocrity but then it's a national thing really.

But why are all our manners in decline in Ireland ?
Well, there are people in high places right across the spectrum of services and industry now who would not have been engaged as teamakers in days of yore and it all has to do with inclusiveness, the removal of glass ceilings, and the essential bias required to provide representation from a certain perspective and placate lobby groups. Overarching EU requirements are in there as well and contribute a lot toward the emerging standards in our society in the modern era. Appointees to senior management must be laden with laurels from academia which they invariably are these days but it has bugger all to do with being better at their jobs. Manners don't figure on any curriculum in the Ireland of today.

Martin Donnellan is right but he should not expect to be feted for pointing out these shortfalls. If he decides to engage in some activity in the business world as many in his position tend to do then he will find exactly the same situation pertains.

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

I agree a lot with what Abraham said above however I want to put another reason why Gardai are getting pissed off.

Just today I had another student ask me to sign and stamp a copy of her passport while also giving her a letter confirming her adress. I asked why she needed this done and the reply I got was "The college grant crowd said to ask for it".

Now, the stamping takes 5 seconds so its not the specific case that bothers me but the combined amount of work that is being, in all honesty, fobbed of to Gardai.

What exactly has a college grant got to do with me? Why am I doing the admin work for the colleges when its simpler for them to do their own work?

This is only one example. If pushed I could mention at least ten seperate examples of what I am covering everyday. Work that is being pushed onto the Gardai because some other agency, sector or business wont do their own work.

All this bull**** work that Gardai have to do takes us away from our real work which is too deal with crime. If theres no crime commited and its not a national security matter then it shouldnt really be in our hands and thats why I personally get pissed off when people shove a form in my face and say "The people in Makebelieve college / vodafone / county council / etc said you have to do it". No, I dont.

TheNog wrote: »

I recently had a fella come into me with a form from Vodafone. He explained to me that he had dropped his phone at work (a building site) and Vodafone gave him this form for me to counter sign his declaration. Problem is the form is only for when the phone is lost or stolen. I took issue with because he clearly stated on the form that it was broken so he rang them from the station and explained to them but they still wanted it signed. I spoke with the lady who was lost for words and got her Supervisor or manager. He too was lost for words when I explained to him that to sign a false declaration was an offence and Vodafone could prosecute him if they so wished.

Splitting hairs I know but as Karlito said things like that get up my wick.

djtechnics1210 wrote: »

I think a lot of it has to do with when students are on placements etc. Tutors before were mostly members with a good bit of service and they would always clip a newbies heals if they were acting like that... nowadays though tutors are barely out of probation themselves.
Also units used to have actual senior men that would take control of a unit and sort out the kind of rubbish you hear people get up to on units. Nowadays a senior man could be a member with 3 years service. When i arrived on my first unit, our senior man had 18 years service, the second most senior man had 12 years service and the third had 10 years. A lot of experience between them to share with us newbies when we arrived. And they definitely wouldn't put up with anyone being hot headed or bad mannered.

jackregan wrote: »

A lack of basics, such as manners towards the public, is simply one symptom of a general lack of adequate supervision and accountability.

While an experience deficit on units might not help matters, it does not explain the ultimate cause or, more importantly, the failure of AGS to address this issue.

jackregan wrote: »

And the general public aren't interested in why gardai are getting pissed off. Professionalism is not bringing your bad day to your next call for assistance, whatever that may be.

dredre wrote: »

I hope you never have to manage people. If you don't address the cause, it's a bit difficult. You can't just say that people (in any line of work, not just the Gardai) should be 'more professional' and expect it to happen. They are still people after all.

Abraham wrote: »

One measure that would certainly sort out the bad manners issue and allegations thereof etc in the Garda Station Offices would be the introduction of CCTV at the counter level. That would force the Guards to be better behaved and probably induce better behaviour with Joe Public as well who is immediately aware that the interaction is being recorded. It's a sure fire straightener for messers whether they be inside or outside the counter while the guards who are true professionals and well able to handle the public in their various scenarios will shine.

If I were in Garda management or even as a supervisor, I'd be all on for this to be done given the number of complaints that seem to be levelled at the Force these days.

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I hope your getting comission....

I do think it's an age thing, and the Garda in general are all polite just like most people if your polite...:)

i remember watching the bill and when a new Boddy came on the beat they were walked around and introduced to the people and business in the local area, would that help make the new recruits feel a bit more involved in the community.... Operation Soft Landing;)

drunkmonkey wrote: »

If you were in Garda management it would be 1984:D

seanybiker wrote: »

I dont see why a guard has to take out his/her problem with filling in a form for vodafone on the person asking for it to be filled in. Its not their fault a phone shop sent them to the guards. Fair enough the guards should not have to sign these stupid forms but that dont make it acceptable for the guard to get annoyed. If i got pulled over for speeding and got annoyed with the cop cos i was missing eastenders would he apologise and leave me off for been annoyed.

TheNog wrote: »

You are missing the point. Vodafone wanted me to witness this man make a legal declaration which is technically a false declaration cause the form is for lost or stolen phones only. His phone was broken not stolen or lost.

youcrazyjesus! wrote: »

Then why whinge about it?

To the general question,

I've never had a problem with the Gardai as a whole. Between my car and one or two other things, I've had to deal with them a few times over the last few years and they've always been very helpful and decent. I've a lot of respect for them and I can honestly say that in almost very case you get the attitude back you give them and I've always had positive experiences in my adult life.

I'd blame individual mistakes on individuals and not the Gardai as a whole but not on one or two occasions when I was a teenager there were some incidents which make me understand why youths sometimes come to despise and distrust the Gardai. When I was younger, standing outside or near my own home, Gardai would come around, country Gardai who didn't know Dublin from Baghdad and start to question us about this and that. Where we lived, who we were, what we were doing and then the usual to "move on", literally standing 10 yards away from my front door. Once they even went to the trouble of confiscating copied CDs from our personal CD players because they said it was illegal, what kind of ignorant, counter-productive, power-tripping bull**** is that? Once or twice plain-clothes, armed Gardai arrived in cars and put up all of us against a wall, like we were all criminals, we were about 14, we were sitting around playing football at the time about 20 yards away from where we lived. It's instances like these which lead to typical attitudes towards Gardai, in Dublin anyway. I wouldn't harbour a grudge, especially towards country Gardai who didn't have a clue, but others might carry it on to adulthood and I understand. I don't think the Gardai should worry too much about their attitude with the general public, I would worry about their attitude with teenagers and youths. Not everyone is a criminal and most deserve the same level of respect as adults.

If you'd like to speak to one of our representaives about one of the issues raised here, please press 1.
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parsi

TheNog wrote: »

I think alot of it is down to the feckless attiude of many people not just within AGS but in society.

That's why I'm all in favour of this recession!!

Truer words have never been spoken.

It is a general failure in society - the Guards are part of society much the same way as bus drivers and shop assistants.

General manners and patience have gone out the window in life. We are all quicker to complain rather than praise and more attention is given to rights rather than responsibilities.

Individualism is the "New thing" - it's a broad swing from having a solid attitude because you were representing your company/shop/country.

Eru

I think people are missing my point here. My problem isnt because people are being sent in, its because they keep telling me that such and such told them I HAVE to do it.

If I start to send people to Dublin bus to report a crime how long do you think they would stand for it?

Nog,
Official policy. Were no longer to sign insurance forms for people unless they reported the CRIME when it happened. Lost property is nothing to do with Gardai in the first place and people are nowing reporting things weeks later (and falsely) just to make insurance claims.

And I have every right to give out to people that are plain and simple wasting my time with matters that have nothing to do with me. Im a police officer, not a bus driver, not a shop keeper, not an insurance broker or citizens advice nor do I work for Vidafone or any other private commercial organisation!

Traumadoc

I charge for signing of insurance forms- ( it goes into a staff education fund) If I go to a solicitor to and ask for a form to be signed I would expect to be charged.
Gardai should be no different.

Eru

Traumadoc wrote: »

I charge for signing of insurance forms- ( it goes into a staff education fund) If I go to a solicitor to and ask for a form to be signed I would expect to be charged.
Gardai should be no different.

I like this idea provided the cash was going to a specific fund for charity or local projects, etc

santosubito

When I'm at a crime scene, more and more young gardai are openly rude. I'd go as far as to describe them as aggressive. I've been concerned by this for some time. Neither I nor any other reporter I talk to seems to have a problem with members with a good amount of service. It just seems to be younger ones who lose the head and threaten to arrest you if you don't leave the scene. It's quite depressing, actually. There's no need for it. And if they lose the head with a reporter who's only doing his or her job, in what other circumstances are they going to be so aggressive?
As an aside, I would know Martin Donnellan and he was always the epitome of politeness when reporters rang him. He wouldn't say anything that would compromise an investigation, but he would help you out if he could. A true gentleman.

djtechnics1210

I never have a problem with press etc and scenes, in fact I actually believe that the press can be very helpful with information they hear regarding crime.
I know a lot of Garda that dont like a certain reporter though...... C_SACK. But in fairness he brings most of it on himself.

santosubito

djtechnics1210 wrote: »

I never have a problem with press etc and scenes, in fact I actually believe that the press can be very helpful with information they hear regarding crime.
I know a lot of Garda that dont like a certain reporter though...... C_SACK. But in fairness he brings most of it on himself.

Jim doesn't go to scenes any more - he's too old.:D

eroo

djtechnics1210 wrote: »

I never have a problem with press etc and scenes, in fact I actually believe that the press can be very helpful with information they hear regarding crime.
I know a lot of Garda that dont like a certain reporter though...... C_SACK. But in fairness he brings most of it on himself.

That's because 1 minute he is praising the Gardai and saying they face an uphill struggle, the next he is pointlessly writing about gay Gardai as if it was uncommon and how the OCU is a band of wild young Gardai on secondment from their stations!:rolleyes:

Eru

santosubito wrote: »

When I'm at a crime scene, more and more young gardai are openly rude. I'd go as far as to describe them as aggressive. I've been concerned by this for some time. Neither I nor any other reporter I talk to seems to have a problem with members with a good amount of service. It just seems to be younger ones who lose the head and threaten to arrest you if you don't leave the scene. It's quite depressing, actually. There's no need for it. And if they lose the head with a reporter who's only doing his or her job, in what other circumstances are they going to be so aggressive?
As an aside, I would know Martin Donnellan and he was always the epitome of politeness when reporters rang him. He wouldn't say anything that would compromise an investigation, but he would help you out if he could. A true gentleman.

Well maybe you should stop chasing us around talking about our personal lives, making tabloid judgements on us and generally telling the world what useless, murdering and corrupt bastards we all are!

Sorry but if journalists want professional courtesy they should have thought about that before they decided Gardai were fair game for all manner of unfair and biased stories.

santosubito

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Well maybe you should stop chasing us around talking about our personal lives, making tabloid judgements on us and generally telling the world what useless, murdering and corrupt bastards we all are!

Sorry but if journalists want professional courtesy they should have thought about that before they decided Gardai were fair game for all manner of unfair and biased stories.

Chasing you around? Don't think that happens. Personal lives? Don't think thah happens, either.
Telling the world that ye're useless? That does happen, but that's usually when someone does something useless. But more often than not, press coverage is largely pro Garda.

Well, actually, yes I would like professional courtesy. It would be nice. Tell you what, why don't you stop generalising about reporters and we'll stop generalising about you.

Whitewater-AGS

santosubito wrote: »

Chasing you around? Don't think that happens. Personal lives? Don't think thah happens, either.
Telling the world that ye're useless? That does happen, but that's usually when someone does something useless. But more often than not, press coverage is largely pro Garda.

Well, actually, yes I would like professional courtesy. It would be nice. Tell you what, why don't you stop generalising about reporters and we'll stop generalising about you.

Chasing us around might not happen but bringing our personal lives to the press does and its happens alot! Anyone remember the headline "garda dies while giving birth"?

What does it matter that the poor woman in question was a member? would the paper have printed receptionist, i think not.

As for being threatened with arrest for being on a scene, the member is perfectly correct in doing so you've no business being on a scene, we secure these for that reason. I'll always turn my back to press when they are taking pictures of a scene cause i dont want my picture in the star the following day and if asked questions on a scene by press i simply dont say a word back.

Now back to the point, in my dealings with the public i TRY treat them with respect but some people just dont give up, with these people I become overly nice, which tend's to p*** them off even more

CLADA

santosubito wrote: »

Tell you what, why don't you stop generalising about reporters and we'll stop generalising about you.

When that happens I'll have to get the kids some extra crayons to draw on all those blank pages in the papers.

CLADA

Am I the only one wondering why Mr Donnellan didn't address this issue when he was in the job?

dredre

Whitewater-AGS wrote: »

Chasing us around might not happen but bringing our personal lives to the press does and its happens alot! Anyone remember the headline "garda dies while giving birth"?

What does it matter that the poor woman in question was a member? would the paper have printed receptionist, i think not.

Of course they would have. Or teacher, fireman, paramedic, nurse whatever. I think that case had added tragedy because it involved someone whose work involved helping others.

I don't see how you can interpret that as an affront to the Gardai.

eroo

dredre wrote: »

Of course they would have. Or teacher, fireman, paramedic, nurse whatever. I think that case had added tragedy because it involved someone whose work involved helping others.

I don't see how you can interpret that as an affront to the Gardai.

Yes but they also highlighted her husband who is also a member. I wont even repeat what was said in the article, as it quite frankly sickened me.

santosubito

Whitewater-AGS wrote: »

Chasing us around might not happen but bringing our personal lives to the press does and its happens alot! Anyone remember the headline "garda dies while giving birth"?

What does it matter that the poor woman in question was a member? would the paper have printed receptionist, i think not.

As for being threatened with arrest for being on a scene, the member is perfectly correct in doing so you've no business being on a scene, we secure these for that reason. I'll always turn my back to press when they are taking pictures of a scene cause i dont want my picture in the star the following day and if asked questions on a scene by press i simply dont say a word back.

Now back to the point, in my dealings with the public i TRY treat them with respect but some people just dont give up, with these people I become overly nice, which tend's to p*** them off even more

A few points: You are absolutely right about the case you mention. I did not see the relevance whatsoever. I argued against the story, somewhat successfully, in the outlet I work for. The way the Sunday Independent handled it was a disgrace, however. As people will know they dragged her husband in to it. One of the saddest things I've heard in my job is that the husband, perhaps a day after this tragedy, was in talking to the Garda Press Officer about it. That was the last thing he should have had to have done. And I blame us, the media, for that. That was outrageous on our part.
(To another poster, I would argue the fact she was a garda would have been mentioned, like a hairdresser, receptionist or whatever. But it would not have been the focus of the story).
But can anyone think of any other examples of people bringing members' personal lives into things? I certainly can't.
Perhaps I need to clarify, but I, obviously, did not mean journalists on or in crime scenes getting hassle from gardai. That would just be silly. What reporter in their right mind is going to cross into a scene? I meant at scenes, behind the cordon, with everyone else. It's happening more and more and there is no need for it. It just creates bad blood.
But, Karlito, if you feel animosity to reporters in general because of a few bad eggs, that's fine.
By all means turn your back on the photographers: all they want is a Garda in the picture. When I'm there, the snappers usually ask the garda if he's okay with a pic. I see it all the time. And they do ask the Garda to run around to get his or her back in.

On your final point, I'm sure there are some muppet reporters who hope a Garda at a scene will blab, but I think they are few and far between. BUt we DO have business being there. It is our job to report on them.

TheNog

Ok everyone take a deep breath please. We can all agree that journalism and AGS have some bad apples so lets not generalise each others profession.

Dont want this thread to descend into a slagging match.

Whitewater-AGS

My apologies if I miss understood your point about being at "scenes". But the press do try and chance their arm with us alot and I personally take the dont speak to them at all approach, that includes the regular phone calls to the station asking "garda is there anything happening tonight"

On the point can anyone think of another example of personal lives being dragged into the media i'll post this link.
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/gardas-gay-club-visit-shows-new-face-of-the-force-1445698.html

Thats just another example that I could think of because it was highlighted in the Garda review, i'm sure other posters could think of more. I'm not trying to slag anyone off, and if its appearing that way please delete the post, just trying to show that our persnonal lifes do get dragged into the papers. A little off the original point i know.

Eru

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/letters/angry-at-gay-garda-article-1451283.html

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/gardas-gay-club-visit-shows-new-face-of-the-force-1445698.html

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/paedophile-ring-lured-teen-boy-on-gay-website-57261.html

http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2007/03/13/story27635.asp

http://www.village.ie/Society/Garda/Responsibility_for_Garda_should_be_taken_from_Justice/

http://www.village.ie/Society/Garda/Garda_%27stonewalling%27_Wheelock_family/

http://www.village.ie/Society/Garda/The_making_of_another_cover-up/

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/confusion-on-street-led-to-robocop-riot-scenes-500898.html

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/may-day-riot-costs-state-83641m-in-fees-and-claims-1428497.html

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/student-garda-faces-probe-over-crash-1586765.html

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/garda-caught-up-in-second-road-tragedy-1304165.html

In reference to the N7 crash, I remember tha Herald had it as the front page with a huge headline 'Garda in fatal car crash' and it was only in the second page that they eventually stated he wasnt the driver that caused the crash. There was also a newpaper article about a Garda on a dating website, it listed his his sexual likes and dislikes. Now please, how the hell is that newsworthy?

The simple fact is journalists see 'Garda' as a tagline to get a story more exposure and appear to be newsworthy when its really not. Of course theres profesional journalists and many that I like and read but again, theres a hell of a lot that arent.

youcrazyjesus!

Apart from the gay garda articles, the other stories, whatever the truth, absolutely have to be covered by the media. They wouldn't be doing their job if they didn't, anybody who thinks otherwise needs their head examined. You honestly believe they shouldn't cover a story in which a Garda was alleged to be a paedophile?

The source for the gay Garda story seems to be other Gardai too, maybe they should be the first port of call in the blame game.

It's disappointing to know that there are members of the force with a chip on their should over such things.

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/letters/angry-at-gay-garda-article-1451283.html

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/gardas-gay-club-visit-shows-new-face-of-the-force-1445698.html

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/paedophile-ring-lured-teen-boy-on-gay-website-57261.html

http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2007/03/13/story27635.asp

http://www.village.ie/Society/Garda/Responsibility_for_Garda_should_be_taken_from_Justice/

http://www.village.ie/Society/Garda/Garda_%27stonewalling%27_Wheelock_family/

http://www.village.ie/Society/Garda/The_making_of_another_cover-up/

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/confusion-on-street-led-to-robocop-riot-scenes-500898.html

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/may-day-riot-costs-state-83641m-in-fees-and-claims-1428497.html

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/student-garda-faces-probe-over-crash-1586765.html

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/garda-caught-up-in-second-road-tragedy-1304165.html

In reference to the N7 crash, I remember tha Herald had it as the front page with a huge headline 'Garda in fatal car crash' and it was only in the second page that they eventually stated he wasnt the driver that caused the crash. There was also a newpaper article about a Garda on a dating website, it listed his his sexual likes and dislikes. Now please, how the hell is that newsworthy?

The simple fact is journalists see 'Garda' as a tagline to get a story more exposure and appear to be newsworthy when its really not. Of course theres profesional journalists and many that I like and read but again, theres a hell of a lot that arent.

santosubito

Whitewater-AGS wrote: »

My apologies if I miss understood your point about being at "scenes". But the press do try and chance their arm with us alot and I personally take the dont speak to them at all approach, that includes the regular phone calls to the station asking "garda is there anything happening tonight"

On the point can anyone think of another example of personal lives being dragged into the media i'll post this link.
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/gardas-gay-club-visit-shows-new-face-of-the-force-1445698.html

Thats just another example that I could think of because it was highlighted in the Garda review, i'm sure other posters could think of more. I'm not trying to slag anyone off, and if its appearing that way please delete the post, just trying to show that our persnonal lifes do get dragged into the papers. A little off the original point i know.

No probem. My sister in law is a garda: I always tell her never, ever to talk to a reporter at a scene, apart from to say: "I must refer you to the press office". She could innocently say something that could be splashed all overv the place in a few minutes. That's if the reporter chances his arm. I'm just talking about common courtesy. That's all mst of us want. As someone who is at such scenes more than most reporters I rarely see any hack trying to get a comment from someone there. Most of them, or us, know its pointless and silly.
Now, one the case you highlighted, Cusack obvsiously got it from other gardai. And, I have to say, nobody's personal life was opened up there: it was an anonymous officer. It is arguable that it was important that a garda of rank could go to a gay bar. Do yo think it could have happened a decade ago?

santosubito

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/letters/angry-at-gay-garda-article-1451283.html

(I think this one was a valid story if it was trying to raise the fact that senior gardai aren't afraid to be named: anyway, who was named?)


http://www.independent.ie/national-news/gardas-gay-club-visit-shows-new-face-of-the-force-1445698.html

(As above)

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/paedophile-ring-lured-teen-boy-on-gay-website-57261.html

(Again, a valid story. You think not?)

http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2007/03/13/story27635.asp

http://www.village.ie/Society/Garda/Responsibility_for_Garda_should_be_taken_from_Justice/

(This is nothing more than a rant. How is it personal?)

http://www.village.ie/Society/Garda/Garda_%27stonewalling%27_Wheelock_family/

(Nothing personal there, either. It may be skewed and slanted, but it's not personal.)

http://www.village.ie/Society/Garda/The_making_of_another_cover-up/

(Same again.)

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/confusion-on-street-led-to-robocop-riot-scenes-500898.html

News

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/may-day-riot-costs-state-83641m-in-fees-and-claims-1428497.html

Hard news

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/student-garda-faces-probe-over-crash-1586765.html

(Hard news. Is it relevant he is a student Garda? Absolutely.)

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/garda-caught-up-in-second-road-tragedy-1304165.html

In reference to the N7 crash, I remember tha Herald had it as the front page with a huge headline 'Garda in fatal car crash' and it was only in the second page that they eventually stated he wasnt the driver that caused the crash. There was also a newpaper article about a Garda on a dating website, it listed his his sexual likes and dislikes. Now please, how the hell is that newsworthy?

I'll tell you why they're both newsworthy. I remmeber the sex one. A Garda goes online and posts pictures of himsef IN UNIFORM asking for sex. That's not newsworthy? D'ya think he could have compromised himself or the force by what he was doing? Could he have opened himself up to blackmail? All he had to do was put up a photo of himself wearing a Man Utd top and there would have been no story. He chose to put up his pic from Templemore.
And how is the crash story not newsworthy? Even on a human level, a garda endures one crash and has another one. The most salient fact for me is the fact that the man killed in the crash on New Year's Day was a relative of the fella whgo crashed into the garda.
That's a huge story - the coincidence alone.

The simple fact is journalists see 'Garda' as a tagline to get a story more exposure and appear to be newsworthy when its really not. Of course theres profesional journalists and many that I like and read but again, theres a hell of a lot that arent.

The same applies to soldiers, solicitors, lawyers, judges, teachers, priests, GAA managers, politicians...even journalists.
If I was done for drink driving, for example, every paper and station in Dublin would be after me. I'm not well known at all, I'm a nobody really. But I'm a journalist who knows other journalists - they'd kill me in a heartbeat.
Do you think Brian Curtin, or Tim Allen, would have had as much media coverage over Operation Amethyst were it not for their occupations?
So, in essence, gardai are not special: lots of jobs get media attention - even journalists.
Google Frank Hamilton the journalist from Limerick and you'll see what I mean.

djtechnics1210

And in the case of "Garda Sergeant dies giving birth". The paper concerned then went off and continued the story with pieces about her husband, and gave his whole life story about how he was in the ERU and about him being one of the members that shot John Carthy in Abbeylara.
What in the name of good god did her husbands past have to do with such a tragic incident.
I have still to this day never bought another issue of that paper concerned or have any of my unit and a lot of other units for that matter.