Extremely graphic video taken from YouTube. Is this censorship?

Sharpshooter · 04-01-2009 01:57PM

That's gruesome stuff there, I couldn't make out what the crowd was doing near the end of the clip.
Were they civilian's or soldiers?
The soldiers seemed to be trying to keep people away.

consultech · 04-01-2009 01:58PM

'Couldn't get through all of that. RIP.

Chardee MacDennis · 04-01-2009 02:00PM

also is it not a war crime to kill civilians and police officers?

Steve.Pseudonym · 04-01-2009 02:04PM

BastardPrince wrote: »

also is it not a war crime to kill civilians and police officers?

Killing civilians deliberately is. As for police, given that they're Hamas, what's the difference between them and combatants? I'd wager there is none.

easy guv'nor · 04-01-2009 02:10PM

Steve.Pseudonym wrote: »

They aren't really kept from you though. You see the figures quoted in the media, the only difference is that video is more emotive than numbers. However, if videos like this were common place, then you'd see the same thing on both sides of every conflict, and then you'd only end up in the same place we are now, with the same arguments.

It's a sobering video, but it changes nothing.

But surely the images that came from (for example) Vietnam, changed public opinion in the US and made a difference to the course of the conflict there.

We should always be informed of inequality and the unjust killing of innocent people, even if it makes us uncomfortable.

D-Generate · 04-01-2009 02:13PM

Is the presence of Hamas terrorists dead on the ground and walking amongst the civilians not a sign that the IDF are targeting combatants rather than civilians? If Hamas had half the equipment that the IDF have then we can be sure that they would use it directly against civilians. One side is always going to have more power than the other, I'm glad its in the Israeli's hands rather than those that endorse the murder of Jews as party of their organizations policy.

ArphaRima · 04-01-2009 02:17PM

I couldnt watch it all.

One thing that becomes apparant quickly though is that there is a strong military presence there. If this thread is about censorship, then I feel youtube has a right to block whatever it likes. Its a mainstream ENTERTAINMENT source.
As propaganda I dont think this video works for any cause. Military casualties are evident. Hamas couldnt use it. Israel couldnt use it because there are dead children. I think this video like many other unseen serves as a reminder that war is abhorrent, and to be avoided at all costs.

Like a previous poster I actually felt angry at the cameraman. How could somebody just watch? People were dead and dying and he was pushing his way through rescuers and soldiers alike.

Steve.Pseudonym · 04-01-2009 02:18PM

easy guv'nor wrote: »

But surely the images that came from (for example) Vietnam, changed public opinion in the US and made a difference to the course of the conflict there.

We should always be informed of inequality and the unjust killing of innocent people, even if it makes us uncomfortable.

There's a difference between our viewpoints, you seem to want people to make political decisions based on their emotional reaction to graphic imagery, I'd prefer they made it based on the merits of the situation.

Opening the Vietnam can of worms may not be a good idea either :pac:

BostonB · 04-01-2009 02:22PM

easy guv'nor wrote: »

...I think our media has been filtered for too long. If more people saw the reality of war rather than the sanitized Sky News version maybe things would be different....

With respect I think you're being very naive. Media (for as long as its existed) has almost always been filtered and controlled to serve some interest or other. Most people have their own agenda.

Most people can't stomach graphic images. Thats simply the reality of it. These images while terrible, are happening all over the world, africa, south america and most don't get reported. Its also most impossible for innocence civilians not to get caught up in any form of conflict.

I'm sure theres the same kind of awful scenes at road accidents, and other accidents here in Ireland. Would you like to see that on the news every evening?

easy guv'nor · 04-01-2009 02:24PM

D-Generate wrote: »

Is the presence of Hamas terrorists dead on the ground and walking amongst the civilians not a sign that the IDF are targeting combatants rather than civilians? If Hamas had half the equipment that the IDF have then we can be sure that they would use it directly against civilians. One side is always going to have more power than the other, I'm glad its in the Israeli's hands rather than those that endorse the murder of Jews as party of their organizations policy.

I suppose we're getting away from the censorship issue, but is it acceptable to target "combatants" when you know that innocent people, children, are going to get killed. Surely its the Israeli Army's responsibility to make sure innocent people don't get killed at all. What this means in practice I suppose is that the Israeli Army should send in soldiers to attack Hamas instead of lobbing in Bombs.

easy guv'nor · 04-01-2009 02:28PM

BostonB wrote: »

I'm sure theres the same kind of awful scenes at road accidents, and other accidents here in Ireland. Would you like to see that on the news every evening?

Well, yes. It would certainly afffect attitudes towards drink driving and speeding.

Kold · 04-01-2009 02:33PM

There are plenty of places on the internet where you can host what you want (exc. CP), Youtube unfortunately isn't one of them.

Steve.Pseudonym · 04-01-2009 02:35PM

easy guv'nor wrote: »

I suppose we're getting away from the censorship issue, but is it acceptable to target "combatants" when you know that innocent people, children, are going to get killed. Surely its the Israeli Army's responsibility to make sure innocent people don't get killed at all. What this means in practice I suppose is that the Israeli Army should send in soldiers to attack Hamas instead of lobbing in Bombs.

Well you can look at that from different points of view, for example while I was watching the video I was thinking how terrible it is that Hamas are continuing to use civilians as human shields. Like me, you might blame Hamas for their deaths, for putting them in harms way rather than evacuating them from areas which they know very well contain weapons or their own personnel. Also, Israel does leaflet drops to warn about airstrikes, so there is some warning.

Neamhshuntasach · 04-01-2009 03:29PM

mikemac wrote: »

There is no denying this is in the video:

I seen one instance of it. That other fella made it seem like it was a video of Hamas members only tending to Hamas members by stripping their weapons and fatigues. There was about 95% civilians in that video.

easy guv'nor · 04-01-2009 03:41PM

Steve.Pseudonym wrote: »

Well you can look at that from different points of view, for example while I was watching the video I was thinking how terrible it is that Hamas are continuing to use civilians as human shields. Like me, you might blame Hamas for their deaths, for putting them in harms way rather than evacuating them from areas which they know very well contain weapons or their own personnel. Also, Israel does leaflet drops to warn about airstrikes, so there is some warning.

No doubt Hamas are guilty of using standard guerilla tactics, but the aysymetric nature of the conflict, the overwhelming Israeli military and economic power means that in my opinion the Israelis have the responsibility to ensure that no innocent civilians are killed.

Glad to see this thread back by the way, it dissappeared for about half an hour there.

Beer is Life · 04-01-2009 03:46PM

D-Generate wrote: »

Is the presence of Hamas terrorists dead on the ground and walking amongst the civilians not a sign that the IDF are targeting combatants rather than civilians?

What makes me angry about this video is the IDF are targeting and killing Hamas personnel with zero regard for collateral damage. The IDF should be assassinating these targets with special ops, poison and other covert methods not dropping 1000 lbs bombs on a mortar truck in the middle of a crowded street. Totally out of proportion and we are right to be outraged by it

easy guv'nor · 04-01-2009 03:47PM

Exactly.

CiaranC · 04-01-2009 03:55PM

Sickening video

Hogzy · 04-01-2009 03:59PM

Well what do people usually think happens when bombs are dropped in urban areas?
I dont suppose the bomb emits a loud noise telling people to evacuate before it explodes and then scans for anyone in the building!!!In Iraq it was the same! Sept 11th was the same, London Bombings were the same!
Unfortunatly they are the harsh realities of war! How anybody can actually give the order to go to war i will never know!

Latchy · 04-01-2009 04:02PM

You wont see that on bbc/itn/rte .I found it very difficult to view .
.

af_thefragile · 04-01-2009 04:04PM

The world needs to see what the reality is actually like.

We've become too desensitised towards war and violence that we've been taking the atrocities in Gaza and Iraq for granted lately.

If the world saw the real picture of whats actually going on, then people would take a much much tougher stance on such acts and maybe we wouldn't have to witness much of those scenes.

What the media is making us do is burying our heads in the ground and soothing us by saying "its not that bad yet".
Its not true! Get yer heads out and see the reality!

Chardee MacDennis · 04-01-2009 04:06PM

D-Generate wrote: »

Is the presence of Hamas terrorists dead on the ground and walking amongst the civilians not a sign that the IDF are targeting combatants rather than civilians? .

lol! drop a bomb any where in Gaza and you are probably guaranteed to kill some Hamas, that doesnt make it in any way targetted!!

arybvtcw0eolkf · 04-01-2009 04:15PM

Cencorship and that video clip.

Well who's word do we have that its an IDF strike on Palestinians and not either a bomb factory explosion, a suicide bomber (before this present conflict or even now as Fatah have opened up a front on Hamas in the last few days) or a rocket launch gone terribly wrong?.

When I was in Lebanon it always stuck me as weird that no one was ever killed in road traffic accidents, no one died of heart attacks, and Hezbollah fighters were never killed by bad workmanship - EVERYONE without exception died at the hand of the Israeli's!.

So what kind of media do people want here?.

You can show all the gore of war you want, personally I've seen enough and don't wanna see more, but if its not accurately reported it mean's jacksh*t to anyone.

This isn't mean't to distract from the argument, but just something I witnessed myself.

Hezbollah were attacking what we called 'Permanent violation Posts' (Israeli) from a village called 'Khir Batt Silm', as a result a 12yr old girl was killed by return fire from the Israeli's. The AE's (Armed Elements) made good their escape.

As dead as she was the Hezbollah further mutilated her body for the media.

Of course the media would have 'accurately recorded her death as being at the hands of the IDF and would have shown her body in its terrible state. But without Hezbollah specialFX dept it probably wouldn't have made such good TV.

So does showing horrible scenes like that reflect accurate reporting?.

af_thefragile · 04-01-2009 04:15PM

Beer is Life wrote: »

What makes me angry about this video is the IDF are targeting and killing Hamas personnel with zero regard for collateral damage. The IDF should be assassinating these targets with special ops, poison and other covert methods not dropping 1000 lbs bombs on a mortar truck in the middle of a crowded street. Totally out of proportion and we are right to be outraged by it

I think Israel has stated in a way that its planning to capture Gaza.
It doesn't care about civilians or the Hamas. What its carrying out is more like ethnic cleansing.

Recapture Gaza and kick out the few remaining surviving palestinians. Blow up all the places where they think the Hamas guys are, which is kinda vague cuz they're quite literally all over Gaza and so they're bombing everywhere. Eventually all of the Hamas members will be killed along with 1000's of civilians. Wouldn't be much left in Gaza but then they can very easily recapture the land and built it up their way!

Also at the same time showing the neighboring countries, "look we are the State of Israel and we are the most powerful state in the world. We don't give a **** about any of you Arabs. Mess with us and we'll annihilate you like we flattened out Gaza".

04-01-2009 04:20PM

This post has been deleted.

Donald-Duck · 04-01-2009 04:26PM

af_thefragile wrote: »

I think Israel has stated in a way that its planning to capture Gaza.
It doesn't care about civilians or the Hamas. What its carrying out is more like ethnic cleansing.

Recapture Gaza and kick out the few remaining surviving palestinians. Blow up all the places where they think the Hamas guys are, which is kinda vague cuz they're quite literally all over Gaza and so they're bombing everywhere. Eventually all of the Hamas members will be killed along with 1000's of civilians. Wouldn't be much left in Gaza but then they can very easily recapture the land and built it up their way!

Also at the same time showing the neighboring countries, "look we are the State of Israel and we are the most powerful state in the world. We don't give a **** about any of you Arabs. Mess with us and we'll annihilate you like we flattened out Gaza".

There I was thinking they said the reason was to destroy military equipment that Hamas had.

This video if anything proves that Israel were attacking Military targets, and that Hamas are doing the usual tactic of hiding behind civilians.

arybvtcw0eolkf · 04-01-2009 04:26PM

The Scientist wrote: »

Wow...You can hear gunfire in the background throughout that. I didn't realise they were engaging in street gun battles already.

Slightly off topic, but is it just Hamas based in Gaza or are they in the West Bank also?
Also, what ever happened to Hezbollah and the Al Axa Martyrs brigade?

The shooting is most likely Hamas fighters shooting into the air as there is no sound of impacting rounds (incoming fire) or rounds passing close.

The rest you can google.

Hezbollah could open a second front on the Lebanese side of the border and risk the IDF bombing Lebanon back to the stone age and not the pathetically limited war it fought the last time.

LCDeelite · 04-01-2009 04:28PM

Three things caught my attention in the video..

The first thing that struck me was the UTTER CHAOS there.

The second thing was that it was disturbing to see living, injured people lying beside the dead. The injured look so dazed that they don't even seem to realise that the people beside them are dead.

The third thing that gave me a jolt was the sight of the slain bodies of children who don't look much older than 12.

The media always scale down the brutality of their news coverage but, even then, there isn't anything 'pretty' about what we see. The Irish media is far more stringent than the likes of the US when it comes to no-holds-barred reporting, seeing as we don't enjoy *absolute* free speech here (like America does).

Anyway, the militant attacks affecting Israeli civilians makes me thankful we don't have the same savagery here. We might be 'Recession Republic' now, but at least everyone here isn't tearing pieces out of each other and witnessing children being finished off.

Latchy · 04-01-2009 04:34PM

If that footage was of Iraq civilians being hit by an American air strike it would have being justified ( by them ) under ' collateral damage ' .

DutchGuy · 04-01-2009 04:38PM

I'm not sure about the news here as I only really listen to the radio for my news but when I was in Luxembourg over the last week they were showing graphic images of the Gaza conflict (not sure if it was luxembourgish or Dutch news but I think it was Reuters footage). Although the imagery wasn't quite as graphic as the posted link, footage of parents bringing unconcious/dead children into hospital has the same effect of showing the indiscriminate nature of the attacks carried out by the IDF.

As others have said Hamas are cowards and will hide behind human shields but it is up to the Israelis to deal with that in a humane way. Saying Hamas kills civilians too doesn't make it in any way acceptable to do the same. Most civilians in Gaza only want peace and a place for their children to grow up in. The indiscrimante killing will only lead to more fanatics and suicide bombers, after all once someone has lost their family in an air raid - where do you think many of them will turn to?

Extremely graphic video taken from YouTube. Is this censorship?

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