buy irish..employ irish

O'Morris · 19-12-2008 01:25PM

donegalfella wrote:

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So you have no problem then in principle with us opening our labour market to the Chinese and the Indians? You would be in favour of us ending our protectionist policies towards those countries?

donegalfella wrote:

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But can the planet though? First-world countries like Ireland should be aiming to stabilise their populations, not to increase them. More people means more carbon emissions and that's a bad thing for our climate and for our fragile-little planet. If you read the last chapter of Jared Diamond's book Collapse you'll see that he lists increased immigration into developed countries as being a contributor to the problem of climate change.

Permabear · 19-12-2008 01:32PM

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Permabear · 19-12-2008 01:41PM

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whitser · 19-12-2008 01:57PM

donegalfella wrote: »

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im not looking for over inflated wages. an honest days pay for an honest days work, dont think thats unfair.
i know what my choices are thanks, in fact im welll aware of them.

O'Morris · 19-12-2008 02:01PM

donegalfella wrote:

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I would just like you to confirm that you would be in favour of us opening our labour market to the hundreds of millions of workers from China and India. A simple yes or no will be enough.

donegalfella wrote:

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I said we should aim to stabilise our population. That would include not wanting to see it either increase or decrease. You want our population to increase, I want it to stay at the same size.

donegalfella wrote:

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Áine Ní Chonaill of the Immigration Control Platform has written a good article (here) in which exposes the myth that replacement immigration can solve Europe's population or economic problems.

donegalfella wrote:

I hardly think we should be basing our immigration policies on junk science.

Global warming is not junk science.

whitser · 19-12-2008 02:02PM

oscarBravo wrote: »

Oh look, you just called me a liar again. An employer who pays a foreign worker €2 per hour should be prosecuted. I've made that position clear, despite your libel to the contrary. You can work for less money than you're used to, or up-skill so that you can earn more money, or you can emigrate. You can't demand more money than the market is prepared to pay you, and throw a hissy fit when you don't get it. More accurately, cheap non-union labour - but you can paint it up however you like.

why should he be prosecuted? by your way of thinking if he can get someone to work for that and they are willing to do it whats the harm..."free market".

whitser · 19-12-2008 02:04PM

donegalfella wrote: »

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how can we support more workers? there's not enough work for the workers that are here at the moment.

Permabear · 19-12-2008 02:20PM

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Permabear · 19-12-2008 02:22PM

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professore · 19-12-2008 02:29PM

whitser wrote: »

how can we support more workers? there's not enough work for the workers that are here at the moment.

I think it's very simple, employers will employ the people who can make their company the most money. That means the workers who do an adequate job for the lowest price. If that's 3 headed aliens from Sirius or Anto from Crumlin that's who they'll take on. All the rest is just nonsense. I suspect that most employers all other things being equal will give the job to the Irish guy.

whitser · 19-12-2008 02:33PM

of course they will. but all things arent equal. and inequality seems to benifit the emplyers not the workers.

mickoneill30 · 19-12-2008 02:53PM

whitser wrote: »

of course they will. but all things arent equal. and inequality seems to benifit the emplyers not the workers.

Now that we're in a recession. Are you forgetting the last few years where for many jobs employers couldn't find people. Well they could but they had to pay lots of money for an average employee. Where were you then Whitser? Were you out there campaigning for the employers?

whitser · 19-12-2008 02:57PM

no. why would i campaign for employers. im a worker, so i'll campaign for workers. same employers who take on foreign workers at exploitatitive rates, even if it is at the minium legal rate. why would i campaign for them?

mickoneill30 · 19-12-2008 03:01PM

whitser wrote: »

no. why would i campaign for employers. im a worker, so i'll campaign for workers. same employers who take on foreign workers at exploitatitive rates, even if it is at the minium legal rate. why would i campaign for them?

Ah I was just wondering if you wanted fairness or were just looking after yourself (or your group). Fair enough.

Is the minimum wage exploitative? I thought Ireland had one of the higher minimum wages.
http://www.fedee.com/minwage.html
The number from that page is for a year ago. I'm not sure if it's gone up or down since then.

whitser · 19-12-2008 03:05PM

it is when its being paid to tradesmen from poland or elsewhere when their irish counterparts are on twice as much, which is a fair wage. an honest days work for honest days pay.

Permabear · 19-12-2008 03:21PM

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oscarBravo · 19-12-2008 03:38PM

whitser wrote: »

why should he be prosecuted?

Because it's illegal. What part of that is unclear? Are you incapable of distinguishing what's explicitly prohibited by law from what you consider unfair?

by your way of thinking if he can get someone to work for that and they are willing to do it whats the harm..."free market".

So, let me get this straight: you're telling me that I condone the illegal exploitation of workers, even though I've repeatedly and explicitly condemned it. You're telling me that I get paid more than I actually do, even though I'm the one living on my salary. Basically, everyone else is wrong, you're always right, LALALALA I'M NOT LISTENING LALALA.

Good luck finding work at even the minimum wage with that attitude.

whitser wrote: »

im a worker, so i'll campaign for workers.

As long as they're not those nasty foreign workers.

O'Morris · 19-12-2008 03:41PM

donegalfella wrote:

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Did you do geography when you were in school? I'm sure you know what the combined population of China and India is at least 2 billion and that the difference between their standard of living and ours is as great as the difference between ours and the east Europeans? Have you seriously thought about the consequences of opening our borders to them?

donegalfella wrote:

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Of course I have something against them. Why else would I be opposed to giving them an automatic right to work here? It's not as if there's an economic case for not granting them access. The economic argument for opening our labour market to hundreds of millions of low-wage Asians is so overwhelmingly strong that only someone motivated by a deep antipathy to foreigners could possibly have a problem with it.

donegalfella wrote:

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I don't know how we can ensure population stability. I know there are things we can do to slow the growth of the population though and controlling immigration would be the most effective means of doing it.

donegalfella wrote:

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She based her arguments on published sources that are far less biased than she is. Do you have any comment to make on the arguments themselves or you just going to reject them out of hand because you don't like the messenger?

Permabear · 19-12-2008 04:04PM

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O'Morris · 19-12-2008 04:40PM

donegalfella wrote:

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And those consequences won't include a massive increase in immigration? Or if they will, you think our infrastructure and our schools and our hospitals and prisons will be able to hold up alright with the increased population? You have it all worked out?

donegalfella wrote:

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You agree that the economic argument for opening our labour market to millions of Chinese and Indians is overwhelmingly strong?

donegalfella wrote:

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I don't think we should control it, I think we should not have an immigration policy based on the premise that an increase in population is a good thing.

donegalfella wrote:

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Those people who live somewhere else on the planet don't consume as much energy as they would consume if they were living in a developed part of the world like Europe or North America. Americans use a hugely disproportionate amount of the world's energy and so an increase in their population would be more damaging to the climate and the environment than an increase in Africa's or Asia's population.

donegalfella wrote:

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Do you have anything to say about the argument put forward in the British Home Office report and in the report by the Council of Europe that were both quoted in the article:

British Home Office 2001 Report wrote:

“The impact of immigration in mitigating population aging is widely acknowledged to be small because immigrants also age. For a substantial effect, net inflows of migrants would not only need to occur on an annual basis, but would have to rise continuously. Despite these and other findings, debate about the link between changing demography and a migration ‘fix’ refuses to go away.”

The Council of Europe 2000 report wrote:

“Migration flows cannot in future be used to reverse trends in population ageing and decline in most Council of Europe countries. The flows required would be too large and it would be impossible to integrate them into the economy and society.”

Permabear · 19-12-2008 05:07PM

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O'Morris · 19-12-2008 06:50PM

donegalfella wrote:

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It might? Does that mean that if we throw open our labour market to the rest of the world that we might have to plan for an increase in the population and we might have to build more schools and hospitals and prisons and we might have to invest in language support and infrastructure and we might have to prepare for an increase in unemployment among the low-wage Irish population and we might have to prepare for a backlash from that same population towards the foreigners? Mightn't this lead to Irish people asking whether an open-borders immigration policy really is something worth continuing with?

donegalfella wrote:

It's all just a zero-sum game for you, isn't it?

It would be like asking me whether I thought slavery or child-labour was a zero-sum game. The question of whether Ireland as an economy would benefit from another decade of mass immigration has never even entered my head.

donegalfella wrote:

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Building schools and hospitals requires a certain amount of forward planning based on an expectation of future population requirements. Having an open border with the rest of the world which might result in a massive increase in the population will make that process of planning and investing for the future a lot more difficult.

donegalfella wrote:

Yes, I do.

Well go on then, elaborate. I was being sarcastic, you're being serious. Why is the economic argument for opening our borders to hundreds of millions of workers from India and China so overwhelmingly strong in your opinion? Will we see a huge increase in our average income or in our per capita GDP or in our productivity if we let them in?

donegalfella wrote:

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Exactly.

donegalfella wrote:

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At least explain why you think the argument is nonsense. I've read through the Q&A with Philippe Legrain and nowhere does he attempt to refute the conclusions of the Home Office or Council of Europe reports on replacement immigration. If you have anything to back up your claim that the argument is nonsense then I'd be interested in seeing it.

djpbarry · 19-12-2008 06:51PM

whitser wrote: »

it is when its being paid to tradesmen from poland or elsewhere when their irish counterparts are on twice as much, which is a fair wage.

Who decides what’s a fair wage? You?

fryup · 19-12-2008 06:52PM

look after our own???

and what if other countries start having the same attitude ....how would you like it if the irish working abroad are sent home??

Permabear · 19-12-2008 07:19PM

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teetotaller · 20-12-2008 12:13PM

Many of you wrote:

1)"We don't need immigrants here"
2)"give work to Irish first"
3)"send home all non-nationals "
4)"immigrants are happy to work below minimum pay rate"

1)
I work in company(american company btw), that setup their offices in Poland as well - should we send home all Irish working in Poland ?

If you don't need immigrants - grab all Irish emmigrants and ship them back home (UK, USA, Australia, Spain)
how does it sound for you ? USA is in financial crisis as well and I'm sure they will be happy if all Irish go back home........

If you don't need immigrants tell all UK and USA companies to fcuk off and to move their headquaters from Ireland.

2)As written above - all Irish people - don't look for a job abroad and quit your jobs abroad and go back to your country.

3)before you send home us - import all Irish from other places.

4) Immigrants are not happy to work below minimum. It is only because of you Irish who try to cheat as much as possible on people who are afraid about their job cos of lack of knowledge of law and English language.
Before you start complaining that immigrant took my job cos he is cheap - first send complaint to proper institution, that there is one or more feckers, who pay less than should.

Personally I met one Irish employer who was not fair. He gave me less money then we were talking about at interview stage, then he wanted me to work 10h with only one 30minutes non paid break and finally he said that he won't register me with revenue as it will be better for me - my salary won't be deducted by tax.

after 2 weeks I informed social welfare and quit job. - employer found himself in big troubles as few days later I received all money back and p45.

If you see that there is immigrant, who speak poor english - help him if he get paid less then you - do something. Stop spamming boards with words feckin polish work for free - send one letter to proper institution and wait for reaction.

Also few of you wrote I have family mortgage i need job. Do something to have this job!!
I was working over one year in timber factory before I found job in IT. Now after 3,5 years I pay nearly 1k of tax per month. If I can do this - why some of you can't?

another thing is
-low paid immigrants don't contribute to economy !

bullsh...

If somebody earn 8.65 per 1h he can't send much money to his country. He spend almost everything here in Ireland tax is not only revenue - all goods are taxed. - less money immigrant gets to his pocket - more money can spend in Irish? shops his Irish employer!!!!

I'm hundred 100% sure that average Irish person with good income spend abroad more money that average immigrant with low incom.
Holidays, german cars, japanese tv's, etc etc.

Serenity Now! · 20-12-2008 04:44PM

fryup wrote: »

look after our own???

and what if other countries start having the same attitude ....how would you like it if the irish working abroad are sent home??

He'd be out of a job...because of "his own"! lol

MySelf56 · 20-12-2008 10:25PM

I think I would like to add another point,

If we don't want immigrants I wonder who is going fill up all the sub-standard shoe boxes or in general housing rental market it self. There is already ghost housing estates across commuter towns (i.e., Wicklow = Dublin 102, Meath = Dublin 107), with out immigrants rental market will also collapse?! that will be the final nail on Irish property market. :eek:

_Nuno_ · 20-12-2008 11:07PM

MySelf56 wrote: »

I think I would like to add another point,

If we don't want immigrants I wonder who is going fill up all the sub-standard shoe boxes or in general housing rental market it self. There is already ghost housing estates across commuter towns (i.e., Wicklow = Dublin 102, Meath = Dublin 107), with out immigrants rental market will also collapse?! that will be the final nail on Irish property market. :eek:

It would certainly speed up the process, all those that bought houses to let now with two mortgages, no tenants and in negative equity... Wouldn't be pretty.

21-12-2008 12:05AM

MySelf56 wrote: »

I think I would like to add another point,

If we don't want immigrants I wonder who is going fill up all the sub-standard shoe boxes or in general housing rental market it self. There is already ghost housing estates across commuter towns (i.e., Wicklow = Dublin 102, Meath = Dublin 107), with out immigrants rental market will also collapse?! that will be the final nail on Irish property market. :eek:

Good! ya mean people might be able to buy a house without a 35 year mortgage, bring it on!

buy irish..employ irish

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