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buy irish..employ irish

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Comments

  • #362
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,859 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    sovtek wrote: »
    Does that apply to your own remuneration?
    Yes. I have to justify my salary to the board. In January I'm hoping to get my first pay rise since the formation of the company, and - as I've pointed out to you before - I'm currently earning around a third of what I was making eight years ago.

    Assuming the question is a sidelong stab at fat-cat capitalists, remember that I said I have to minimise costs where possible. That means that I have to pay enough to make sure I keep employees, and everybody - including part-timers - gets more than minimum wage. Similarly, when justifying my salary to the board, the question they have to answer is: can they get someone to do my job as effectively for less than I want to be paid?


  • #363
    Serenity Now!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,326 ✭✭✭Serenity Now!


    whitser wrote: »
    the powers that be are telling everyone to be patriotic and buy irish. maybe then they can also call on employers to only employ irish. the party's over now and its time we started to look after our own. there's plenty of good irish workers out there looking for work.

    If you're 30 years old or older then what a short bloody memory you have. Watch 'Reeling In The Years' or something and remember where a high number of Irish fecked off to in order to find work.


  • #364
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #365
    asdasd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,185 ✭✭✭asdasd


    One of my friends in the USA is currently working as a waitress for $0.00 an hour. But she's a charming, gregarious person who does very well when it comes to tips—much better than she would if she were earning minimum wage. Do you have a problem with that?

    I definitely do. Its the charmless and non-gregarious that suffer.


  • #366
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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  • #367
    asdasd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,185 ✭✭✭asdasd


    Maybe those of a more saturnine or uncongenial temperament should not seek work in restaurants?

    Maybe 50 year old women shouldn't... Maybe the acne infected teenager shouldnt. Probably tips are not all that useful for the non-female, full stop.

    I imagine your friend is both charming and hot, and that's tough on those charming but homely. Charm they can learn, prettiness is inate.

    They may end up with an actual wage of $0.00 an hour.


  • #368
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #369
    _Nuno_
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 188 ✭✭_Nuno_


    asdasd wrote: »

    As for American wage stagnation. Easy to find. It was hidden by debt. ( Not all of that is immigration related)



    That is from the Clinton boom by the way.

    Well, besides the fact that that article actually mentions the loss of buying power of the average American, and not really wage stagnation, how did you come to the brilliant conclusion that any of it is related to immigration?


  • #370
    asdasd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,185 ✭✭✭asdasd


    I hope you aren't going to quote from Ayn Rand because the prose is excruitating.

    Nobody is stopping ballerinas becoming rich, or Ronaldo coming rich, etc., no communist me ( ask the communists on this board).

    You however are happy with no minimum wage, eulogise the zero wage, and unrestricted immigration ( as far as I can see). In those cases wages head towards zero, or subsistance level.

    Not for everyone, but the unskilled. Nothing moral about that.

    And fifty year old women can make fine waitresses - which is what the service is about. They wont survive in your system.


  • #371
    asdasd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,185 ✭✭✭asdasd


    Well, besides the fact that that article actually mentions the loss of buying power of the average American, and not really wage stagnation, how did you come to the brilliant conclusion that any of it is related to immigration?

    Firstly I was responding to your shock that American real wages have fallen ( if you dont understand that that is the same as a loss of buying power you have no business posting). You missed the part where I said immigration was not the sole agent. However unless increasing the supply of labour manages magically to increase it's price ( unlike other commodities) it must be a significant part of the reason.

    You also didnt seem to know that Germany does not allow Eastern Europeans to work here.

    I am not sure if you expect me to educate you in this thread? I have questions too...

    Do you think that unrestricted immigration will

    a) reduce wages, or
    b) increase wages.

    boom or no boom.


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  • #372
    _Nuno_
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 188 ✭✭_Nuno_


    asdasd wrote: »
    Firstly I was responding to your shock that American real wages have fallen ( if you dont understand that that is the same as a loss of buying power you have no business posting). You missed the part where I said immigration was not the sole agent. However unless increasing the supply of labour manages magically to increase it's price ( unlike other commodities) it must be a significant part of the reason.

    No, wages have not fallen, they might have not increased at the rate of inflation, which is a completely different thing. If your salary stays the same but everything decreases price (deflation), would you say your salary increased? You wouldn't, your buying power did, but not your salary.

    asdasd wrote: »
    You also didnt seem to know that Germany does not allow Eastern Europeans to work here.

    That was not what you said, you said they did not allow immigration, which is not true.
    asdasd wrote: »
    I am not sure if you expect me to educate you in this thread? I have questions too...

    No, I don't at all.....

    asdasd wrote: »
    Do you think that unrestricted immigration will

    a) reduce wages, or
    b) increase wages.

    Well, it can reduce wages, especially for unskilled workers, if there are enough crooks to take advantage of it. In Ireland there clearly are many of those in some sectors.


  • #373
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #374
    asdasd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,185 ✭✭✭asdasd


    Well, it can reduce wages, especially for unskilled workers, if there are enough crooks to take advantage of it. In Ireland there clearly are many of those in some sectors.

    cool. I am actually not arguing against all immigration, and certainly not skilled immigration; but unrestricted unskilled immigration, so you and I are on the same page pretty much.
    If you have empirical evidence that the lack of minimum wage laws and/or unrestricted immigration will push wages down to subsistence level, I'd love to see it.

    The, um, literature is pretty clear on what happens to any commodity when the supply tends towards infinity ( or in the case of a 6 billion person planet) very large values. the price tends to zero. Since humans have to eat, the lowest level is subsistence.


  • #375
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #376
    _Nuno_
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 188 ✭✭_Nuno_


    asdasd wrote: »
    cool. I am actually not arguing against all immigration, and certainly not skilled immigration; but unrestricted unskilled immigration, so you and I are on the same page pretty much.

    No man, sorry, we're not. We can not be. There's not one drop of nationalism in me and we can not be on the same page.

    I think all the "slave traders" that are exploiting immigrants should receive hard jail sentences and have all their assets confiscated and used to compensate all they have exploited from immigrants. You think immigration should stop because the innocent exploiters are just doing a perfectly natural thing and the immigrants are causing this. Worlds apart. Sorry.


  • #377
    Serenity Now!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,326 ✭✭✭Serenity Now!


    Fred83 wrote: »
    kevin myers and morrisey raised this type of issue before,they both felt we would lose our identity if we didnt try and do something,morrisey was called a racist,and rightfully he sued,kevin myers came out talking about it too,its such a taboo subject
    Morrissey was quoted second-hand by a music magazine and is in legal dispute over this being the case.
    Kevin Myers would say anything for profile.
    Its not a taboo subject. It gets discussed.
    Its just that when the anti-immigration side of the coin have their points disproven or countered they waft on about being singled out or that the country is doomed etc etc...:rolleyes:


  • #378
    whitser
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,038 ✭✭✭whitser


    oscar dont hold your breath for an apologie from me. its employers like you who see nowt wrong with bringing foreign tradesmen here and paying them minium wage for work they should be getting paid 2 or 3 times more for that has created this situtation were irish tradesmen cant get work. "drop your rates" you say and spout on about free markets but your not willing to work for 8 euro and hour are you?
    i have said earlier in this thread that all tradesmen wether polish or irish should be on the same rates and conditions. if this was the case workers would be employed on the merits of how they do the job, and i've no doubt in my mind that if that was the case there'd be alot more irish men in work at the moment and not signing on.


  • #379
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,859 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    whitser wrote: »
    oscar dont hold your breath for an apologie from me. its employers like you who see nowt wrong with bringing foreign tradesmen here and paying them minium wage for work they should be getting paid 2 or 3 times more for that has created this situtation were irish tradesmen cant get work.
    I wasn't expecting an apology from you. I don't think you're capable of the humility required to acknowledge that you've falsely accused someone of condoning illegal activity, and or the courage to say the simple words "I was wrong". So you'll stick to your guns, casting around to try to find some way to make it seem as if your dishonest and unwarranted allegation has a moral basis, if not a factual one.
    "drop your rates" you say and spout on about free markets but your not willing to work for 8 euro and hour are you?
    Funny you should say that. I just did a quick calculation based on what I've been paid for the last few years versus the hours I've put in, and somewhere between €8 and €10 is a fair approximation of what I get paid for an hour's work.
    i have said earlier in this thread that all tradesmen wether polish or irish should be on the same rates and conditions.
    ...as long as they're the rates and conditions that you decide you're prepared to accept.

    It's very simple: if an Irish worker and a Polish worker offer to do the same job to the same standard, and the Irish worker won't do it for less than double what the Polish worker is prepared to accept, then the Polish worker will get the job. I know this is offensive to the Irish worker's sense of God-given entitlement, but that's just how it is.


  • #380
    jmayo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,227 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    whitser wrote: »
    oscar dont hold your breath for an apologie from me. its employers like you who see nowt wrong with bringing foreign tradesmen here and paying them minium wage for work they should be getting paid 2 or 3 times more for that has created this situtation were irish tradesmen cant get work. "drop your rates" you say and spout on about free markets but your not willing to work for 8 euro and hour are you?
    i have said earlier in this thread that all tradesmen wether polish or irish should be on the same rates and conditions. if this was the case workers would be employed on the merits of how they do the job, and i've no doubt in my mind that if that was the case there'd be alot more irish men in work at the moment and not signing on.

    Ah lets get the violins out for the poor Irish tradesmen.
    These would be the same poor Irish tradesmen that have been shafting their customers over the last 7/8 years with huge high prices for their often substandard work.

    I know most colleagues and friends of mine often found the "foreign" tradesmen that worked on their houses much harder working and much better value for money than their Irish counterparts.
    Maybe if you tackled that problem rather than look for excuses to send your competition home then you might be getting somewhere as a group of workers.
    You have to face it the days are gone when you as a group could DEMAND certain rates, now it is a buyers market and you either take pay cuts or nowt.

    And before you say anything, I do have Irish tradesmen working on my house at the moment and I find them very hard workers and pretty good value.
    But as a group you have a bad reputation that has been well earned down the years.

    I am not allowed discuss …



  • #381
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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  • #382
    whitser
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,038 ✭✭✭whitser


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    I wasn't expecting an apology from you. I don't think you're capable of the humility required to acknowledge that you've falsely accused someone of condoning illegal activity, and or the courage to say the simple words "I was wrong". So you'll stick to your guns, casting around to try to find some way to make it seem as if your dishonest and unwarranted allegation has a moral basis, if not a factual one. Funny you should say that. I just did a quick calculation based on what I've been paid for the last few years versus the hours I've put in, and somewhere between €8 and €10 is a fair approximation of what I get paid for an hour's work. ...as long as they're the rates and conditions that you decide you're prepared to accept.

    It's very simple: if an Irish worker and a Polish worker offer to do the same job to the same standard, and the Irish worker won't do it for less than double what the Polish worker is prepared to accept, then the Polish worker will get the job. I know this is offensive to the Irish worker's sense of God-given entitlement, but that's just how it is.
    your on 8 euro an hour:D:D:D:D:Ddont make me laugh.
    it very simple irish worker wont work for 2 euro an hour foreign worker will. then maybe irish worker should give up his god given right for work??
    you can paint it up any way you like.
    not ratees and conditions i decide. its the rates and conditions that were negotiated by unions over the years. but the ibec class has thrown all them out the window to exploit cheap foreign labour.


  • #383
    whitser
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,038 ✭✭✭whitser


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    i dont blame the collapse of the const sector on poles.
    i dont think i should be paid as much as a doctor but certainly if i learned a trade and am good at my trade i should earn more then someone on the minium wage.


  • #384
    O'Morris
    Closed Accounts Posts: 619 ✭✭✭O'Morris


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Should we have a completely open labour market then? Should we lift the protectionist restrictions we have on the Bulgarians and Romanians and the Chinese and Indians? Should we give them all the same automatic right to work here that we gave to the Poles?


  • #385
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,859 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    whitser wrote: »
    your on 8 euro an hour:D:D:D:D:Ddont make me laugh.
    Oh look, you just called me a liar again.
    it very simple irish worker wont work for 2 euro an hour foreign worker will.
    An employer who pays a foreign worker €2 per hour should be prosecuted. I've made that position clear, despite your libel to the contrary.
    ...then maybe irish worker should give up his god given right for work??
    You can work for less money than you're used to, or up-skill so that you can earn more money, or you can emigrate. You can't demand more money than the market is prepared to pay you, and throw a hissy fit when you don't get it.
    not ratees and conditions i decide. its the rates and conditions that were negotiated by unions over the years. but the ibec class has thrown all them out the window to exploit cheap foreign labour.
    More accurately, cheap non-union labour - but you can paint it up however you like.


  • #386
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #387
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #388
    whitser
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,038 ✭✭✭whitser


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    no it doesnt. what i said was i dont expect to earn as much as a doctor or engineer but i shouldnt be expected to work for minium wage like oscar wants. the ibec class would be happy to see all skilled workers paid minium wage but the ceo's,except for oscar he is on 8 euro;), builders wont work for that.


  • #389
    cavedave
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,164 ✭✭✭cavedave


    whitser

    if i learned a trade and am good at my trade i should earn more then someone on the minium wage.

    Should a cooper, blacksmith, bowyer or a compasssmith? Just because your job is skilled should anyone doing it earn high wages? Or should only people doing jobs people want earn high wages?

    It is very hard for someone to decide how much a job should pay just as it is hard to decide what a product should be worth. You can use the market to decide and no it is not be a perfect method but until we come up with a better one....


  • #390
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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  • #391
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 603 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    are you sure of the numbers?

    According to this site, the population of the island was 8.2million in 1841.

    http://www.tacitus.nu/historical-atlas/population/british.htm

    The recent census puts the population in the Republic at 4.2million, with another 1.8 in the north, giving 6 million in the island (or 73% of the historic high)


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