buy irish..employ irish

97i9y3941 · 18-12-2008 12:47AM

kevin myers and morrisey raised this type of issue before,they both felt we would lose our identity if we didnt try and do something,morrisey was called a racist,and rightfully he sued,kevin myers came out talking about it too,its such a taboo subject

Permabear · 18-12-2008 12:57AM

This post has been deleted.

97i9y3941 · 18-12-2008 12:58AM

just poltical correctness gone mad really,stuff cant be done anymore without fear of offending someone

The Corinthian · 18-12-2008 08:24AM

mike4819 wrote: »

That sounds like an attempt at sarcasm:rolleyes:

Actually it was clearly sarcasm. If you have difficulty identifying it, I shall label it in future for you (possibly sarcasm, as you may need the help).

No not goat entrails "cor", just plenty of evidence on the net (most especially on you tube). From the Bradford riots, and tributes to violent crimes in the U.K.; to violent attacks on fireman in Malmo, Sweden. So much so that police protection is needed on alarms in certain (cough)neighborhoods. (Oh, the joys of forced multi-culturalism).

YouTube is not evidence, any more (and arguably less) than reading an article in the Sun is. Evidence, in this case, is factual and verifiable record that demonstrates a correlation between factors, not anecdotal evidence of specific cases that you then apply to all.

Thankfully, these videos can still be shown, and these opinions can still be expressed. But, who knows for how long? (We don't realize how precious these freedoms of speech and expression are until they stifiled with political correctness). Oh the "joys" of E.U. membership! And the almost infinite wisdom and justice of it's leaders and courts!:p
And their INTEGRITY, ( You're going to be forced to vote again no? Whats that, keep voting till you get it right? FUNNY!
What matter if something is true or not, If the wrong people are offended (perish forbid) SILENCE MUST BE IMPOSED!
"Big Brother" E.U. knows what they are about. Flood European countries with immigrants from Africa, Eastern Europe, Asia, etc... to aid the agenda of Eroding any sense of patriotism, Ethnicity, or National pride, With the carrot and stick approach of economic gains for all. Thereby hastening the dawn of the "glorious" ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT.

With respects, you sound like a paranoid conspiratist. You have just put forward a complex conspiracy without any relevant or cogent evidence. Indeed, how you tie it all up, from political correctness, through to forced votes and a ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT, is tenuous at best and at worst just makes you sound like a nut.

Anyone who voices opposition is of course branded as "Nazi", "Racist", or "Facist":P The tragedy of this is that it seems to be working!
Oh well what matter as long the broadband improves, (bread and circus, don't ya know)

I've personally never been a fan of unchecked multiculturalism, and I certainly agree that there is a great degree of peer-imposed politically correct censorship often imposed. However, neither do I have much time for the 'send them back where they come from' brigade; both to me are prejudiced and emotional, and often have not really thought about the issues, outside of seeking out only that 'evidence' that support their original prejudices. Induction versus deduction.

I used to think that if people examined questions like with open minds this they would come to dispassionate and rational conclusions. The older I get, the more that I seem to realize that this kind of reasoning is beyond the comprehension of a lot of people - from all sides.

mickoneill30 · 18-12-2008 09:02AM

I haven't read all 335 posts but just a quick question.

At the start of the thread the OP says these immigrants are sending all their wages back to their motherland.
Later on it's said that immigrants come in and work for less.

I've a reasonable job, a fair chunk of my wages goes on tax, rent, gas, ESB, car, food etc. Do the immigrants not have these bills so they can send all of their money out of Ireland?
If so can someone tell me what they're doing to save all this money to send abroad so I can save it too.

I used to work in Australia. We had the same arguments put against us. I used to explain to my Australian mates that I wasn't working for less than them. I was working in a French company doing a job in Australia that they couldn't get a Aussie to do and I wasn't cheap.

We should tell all the US companies that come in here not to employ foreigners. Does that mean they'd just employ Americans or Irish?????

mountainyman · 18-12-2008 10:24AM

The Corinthian wrote: »

I used to think that if people examined questions like with open minds this they would come to dispassionate and rational conclusions. The older I get, the more that I seem to realize that this kind of reasoning is beyond the comprehension of a lot of people - from all sides.

Very droll. Opinions are rarely changed but in fairness arguments can be refined and made more cogent even where the basic premise does not change.

oscarBravo · 18-12-2008 10:53AM

whitser wrote: »

hey came on on and complained that irish couldnt compete with people who'll work for less and was told basicly tough. its a fee market. employers will use the cheapest labour available, ie migrants. "its a free market".

You've accused me of being supportive of the illegal exploitation of immigrants. Have the courage to either back it up, or withdraw it.

jmayo · 18-12-2008 11:40AM

mickoneill30 wrote: »

I haven't read all 335 posts but just a quick question.

At the start of the thread the OP says these immigrants are sending all their wages back to their motherland.
Later on it's said that immigrants come in and work for less.

I've a reasonable job, a fair chunk of my wages goes on tax, rent, gas, ESB, car, food etc. Do the immigrants not have these bills so they can send all of their money out of Ireland?
If so can someone tell me what they're doing to save all this money to send abroad so I can save it too.
...

Ah yes but they are not blowing wads of cash on consumer items like mad paddy eejits, they have their cars insured or maybe not abroad, they are not going off on two holidays a year, they are not spending half their wages on mortgages for overpriced shi*boxes.
(mind I am not saying you are doing any of that now)
Also if you live like a student (the student life before they had cars, trips abroad etc), then you could save money.

mountainyman wrote: »

The EU is not responsible for Ireland's property boom and bust. The MacSharry tax cuts were made possible by EU money (used to replace Irish tax money). In this way they can take some credt for the boom. But not the bust.
The decision to open our borders was unilateral a derogation was available Iveagh house advised against it (another in what I see as a litany of incompetence from Iveagh house) and it suited the paymasters of our political parties.
The EU does not prevent referenda on any subject.
The monies lost from fishing don't compare to monies received from the EU.
What do you mean by Club Med?

MM

The old red herring (pardon the pun) about the fishing industry is misleading. What we lost in fishers was significant but nowhere near what we gained from EU either in agrisubsidies, subsidies for less devleoped areas, infrastructure funds, and most importantly access to new markets outside of UK.

The EU was not responsible for our property boom, it was the naked greed of us Irish that is reposnsible for that one. I am not talking about our Celtic Tiger pre 2002, whgich was based on real industries and real sustainable jobs.
BTW if you think the property boom in this decade was a good thing then IMHO you have a bad grasp of economics.

Without the EU we would still be f***ed, trying to sell to UK as our main market.

To me this thread just illustrates the old human attitude that has been played out in numerous countries at numerous times.
When things turn pear shaped certain people use foreigners, ethnic or religious minorities as scapegoats.
There are always those that want their country to be "pure", they do not want outsiders or anyone that is different, be it ethnically or religious believes.
When it gets serious is when someone in power or someone who wants power adopts these policies.

A lot of the people I hear mouthing off about foreigners and the fact that we are overun with refugees diluting our Irishness, are often the very ones that spend their days reading the Sun, cheering on Man U and watching British TV :rolleyes:

whitser · 18-12-2008 11:43AM

oscarBravo wrote: »

You've accused me of being supportive of the illegal exploitation of immigrants. Have the courage to either back it up, or withdraw it.

you've said in the thread you see nothing wrong with skilled foreign tradesmen getting paid less then half what irish men were on, is that not explotation?
i've no doubt in my mind that if employers had to hire foreign workers for the same rates and conditions that unions fought for years for irishmen and women to have then they wouldnt be so glad to see foreign workers

oscarBravo · 18-12-2008 12:19PM

whitser wrote: »

you've said in the thread you see nothing wrong with skilled foreign tradesmen getting paid less then half what irish men were on, is that not explotation?

It's not illegal. You've claimed I'd support illegal exploitation. Now you're trying to wriggle out of it, rather than admit you were wrong.

_Nuno_ · 18-12-2008 12:57PM

I haven't read all the posts, but I am wondering if the original poster also objects to all the money coming in trough foreign companies, from people in other countries buying Irish exports? Since all the multinationals operating in Ireland are doing so so they can have have a low tax base from which they can access the big European union market, all the money that allowed the Irish to become one of the wealthiest people in the world came from abroad. Or do you think it was the 4 million people internal market that generated all this money?

That part would be ok for you? Wouldn't it? It's good to have the foreign multinationals, it's good to have all the foreign money coming in an paying the inflated Irish salaries, but please, no foreigners and especially no foreigners sending some of the money that came from abroad back to other countries. We can't have that.

Beyond that, there's also the fact that for a long time, many skilled immigrants helped build this country, at a time when all these multinationals came here and there was a huge shortage of qualified labor. In my area of work there still is a shortage.

Foreigners came because there were jobs for them, if they're exploited the fault is in the people that are exploiting them, not on the exploited

asdasd · 18-12-2008 01:11PM

I haven't read all the posts, but I am wondering if the original poster also objects to all the money coming in trough foreign companies, from people in other countries buying Irish exports? Since all the multinationals operating in Ireland are doing so so they can have have a low tax base from which they can access the big European union market, all the money that allowed the Irish to become one of the wealthiest people in the world came from abroad. Or do you think it was the 4 million people internal market that generated all this money?

We can access the big European market without opening our borders to the accession States, like Germany etc. Do keep up.

That part would be ok for you? Wouldn't it? It's good to have the foreign multinationals, it's good to have all the foreign money coming in an paying the inflated Irish salaries, but please, no foreigners and especially no foreigners sending some of the money that came from abroad back to other countries. We can't have that.

Inflated? Presumably these corporations are making profits. How decides that we are inflated. Who are you IBEC?

Beyond that, there's also the fact that for a long time, many skilled immigrants helped build this country, at a time when all these multinationals came here and there was a huge shortage of qualified labor. In my area of work there still is a shortage.

Nobody is arguing against skilled labour. Do keep up. ( although plenty of skilled labout id prevented by law, custom, or other barriers to entry from competing with the real inflated incomes of Ireland's elites - dentists, pharmacists, lawyers, civil servants etc.)

Foreigners came because there were jobs for them, if they're exploited the fault is in the people that are exploiting them, not on the exploited

The cheaper the cost of jobs, the more "jobs for them" there will be. Cheaper labour make it easier to emply immigrants. Increasing the number of jobs when wages are halved isnt much of a skill, nor economically useful. And bad for the immigrants and the competing unskilled working class already here.

_Nuno_ · 18-12-2008 01:27PM

asdasd wrote: »

We can access the big European market without opening our borders to the accession States, like Germany etc. Do keep up.

Germany has open borders, being from an EU country I can work there with no need for a permit.

asdasd wrote: »

Inflated? Presumably these corporations are making profits. How decides that we are inflated. Who are you IBEC?

Inflated comparing to most of the EU. I should said high though, inflated does have a negative connotation, and personally I am not complaining on being paid by Irish standards.

asdasd wrote: »

The cheaper the cost of jobs, the more "jobs for them" there will be. Cheaper labour make it easier to emply immigrants. Increasing the number of jobs when wages are halved isnt much of a skill, nor economically useful. And bad for the immigrants and the competing unskilled working class already here.

But how are immigrants guilty of being exploited? If I am mugged on the street am I the one to blame? Ruthless bastards like that Quinn guy of the trucks company are taking advantage and robbing a huge chunk of the lives of immigrants and you blame the immigrants for what people like him do?

If your theory was right, then Ireland, having experienced one of the biggest immigration surges in Europe, should have the lowest wages, since all the cheap labor available would have driven salaries down. It didn't here, it didn't in Luxembourg, Germany, Canada, the US, or any the country that experienced high levels of immigration.

whitser · 18-12-2008 01:32PM

oscarBravo wrote: »

It's not illegal. You've claimed I'd support illegal exploitation. Now you're trying to wriggle out of it, rather than admit you were wrong.

both are morally wrong imo. and altough you say you dont agree with people being paid less then the minium wage your quite happy to pay skilled tradesmen from abroad 8 euro an hour for work irish men negotiated to be paid 20 euro for. thats explotation imo.

asdasd · 18-12-2008 01:33PM

Germany has open borders, being from an EU country I can work there with no need for a permit.

Polish people can't. Most of Europe controls borders for a reason - to keep labour values high even artificially high.

But how are immigrants guilty of being exploited?

Who said that? Strawman. immigrants are exploited by employers because we have a open doors policy, this reduces their wages and everyone elses. The fault is with the ruling classes.

If your theory was right, then Ireland, having experienced one of the biggest immigration surges in Europe, should have the lowest wages, since all the cheap labor available would have driven salaries down. It didn't here, it didn't in Luxembourg, Germany, Canada, the US, or any othe country that exprienced high levels of immigration.

Clearly working class wages have stagnated, and even fallen. The market rate for restaurant work is 2 euro and hour.

Canada controls its borders with a points system. Germany has no immigration and the US ( which controls legal immigration tightly) has seen a stagnation in wages since 1970, which is down to immigration and other structural changes. The lower 20 percenile has fallen.

Fratton Fred · 18-12-2008 01:40PM

_Nuno_ wrote: »

I haven't read all the posts, but I am wondering if the original poster also objects to all the money coming in trough foreign companies, from people in other countries buying Irish exports? Since all the multinationals operating in Ireland are doing so so they can have have a low tax base from which they can access the big European union market, all the money that allowed the Irish to become one of the wealthiest people in the world came from abroad. Or do you think it was the 4 million people internal market that generated all this money?

That part would be ok for you? Wouldn't it? It's good to have the foreign multinationals, it's good to have all the foreign money coming in an paying the inflated Irish salaries, but please, no foreigners and especially no foreigners sending some of the money that came from abroad back to other countries. We can't have that.

Beyond that, there's also the fact that for a long time, many skilled immigrants helped build this country, at a time when all these multinationals came here and there was a huge shortage of qualified labor. In my area of work there still is a shortage.

Foreigners came because there were jobs for them, if they're exploited the fault is in the people that are exploiting them, not on the exploited

it is a couple of years old, but interesting all the same.

http://www.finfacts.ie/irelandbusinessnews/publish/article_10005150.shtml

And there's also this http://www.finfacts.com/irishfinancenews/article_1012675.shtml

are the two connected? I think so. Ireland has a low tax economy and yet is not a net contributor to the EU. to exploit this and prevent other EU nationals from benefitting from this is, I think, somewhat selfish.

I personally don't think the other EU membe states should have been allowed to prevent citizens of new member states from working in their countries, the EU should be all or nothing, when the larger countries can start cherry picking which bits of it they want it sets a worrying precedent and I don't think Ireland should be allowed to do it now.

_Nuno_ · 18-12-2008 01:46PM

asdasd wrote: »

Who said that? Strawman. immigrants are exploited by employers because we have a open doors policy, this reduces their wages and everyone elses. The fault is with the ruling classes.

No, they are exploited because some employers are crooks. Your whole speech puts the blame on immigrants, and none on the employers, every single time you mention it.

asdasd wrote: »

Clearly working class wages have stagnated, and even fallen. The market rate for restaurant work is 2 euro and hour.

Again, same as above, it's not the immigrants fault so many employers are crooks.

asdasd wrote: »

Canada controls its borders with a points system. Germany has no immigration and the US ( which controls legal immigration tightly) has seen a stagnation in wages since 1970, which is down to immigration and other structural changes. The lower 20 percenile has fallen.

Germany has no immigration? My cousin just went there from Portugal! So they have at least one person this year!

The US salaries frozen since the 70's? I seriously doubt that. Do you have any official statistics to back this up? Are you saying in 38 years salaries haven't rose in the US? Sorry, I have to call BS there.

You know what the funny thing is, I am actually in favor of some immigration control, mainly because social services/structures have a limited ability to cope with huge sudden increases in population and especially concerning some people that come into countries and head up straight to the social welfare offices in search for money. Unfortunately I just disagree with all your arguments. They're just a cover up for racism/nationalism, as far as I'm concerned.

The first reply to this post was, as far as I'm concerned, the most appropriate one.

mountainyman · 18-12-2008 02:28PM

oscarBravo wrote: »

It's not illegal. You've claimed I'd support illegal exploitation. Now you're trying to wriggle out of it, rather than admit you were wrong.

Sorry I can't see where he said that you support the illegal exploitation of foreign workers.

Permabear · 18-12-2008 03:08PM

This post has been deleted.

The Corinthian · 18-12-2008 03:31PM

mountainyman wrote: »

Very droll. Opinions are rarely changed but in fairness arguments can be refined and made more cogent even where the basic premise does not change.

An opinion will only fail to change if one has not rationally been able to debunk it or you are not interested (or lack the capacity) in changing it. Given the lack of depth in some of the arguments being bandied about here, I'd suggest it mainly comes down to the latter.

asdasd · 18-12-2008 03:53PM

Originally Posted by asdasd View Post
Who said that? Strawman. immigrants are exploited by employers because we have a open doors policy, this reduces their wages and everyone elses. The fault is with the ruling classes.

No, they are exploited because some employers are crooks. Your whole speech puts the blame on immigrants, and none on the employers, every single time you mention it.

You got that from "ruling class:, huh?

Germany has no immigration? My cousin just went there from Portugal! So they have at least one person this year!

Little, or none.

Again, same as above, it's not the immigrants fault so many employers are crooks.

Some of the Cato institute muppets on here want to legalise all immigration so employers would be able to employ cheaper labour legally. No crookery involved. Just employers of cheap labour.

in terms of how restaurants compete - labour is a big cost, clearly. And very little can be done in the way of productivity, people dont want to serve themselves, have microwaved food, or fast greasy deep fried food. And they dont want to wait too long. At least none of this in sit down restaurants. So the technology, and thus the number of employees must remain the same.

If bob the restaurateur employs cheap labour - because there is a large pool of such labour available - the Bill the Restaurateur must too to remain competitive, and so on ( the only exception is very high end places). Hence the 76% of restaurants doing it. As the cato institute posters on here might tell you, the market value for restaurant work is now 2 Euro an hour. They have no problem with this, but I do.

As for American wage stagnation. Easy to find. It was hidden by debt. ( Not all of that is immigration related)

Wage stagnation. Perhaps the most striking aspect of the economic scene is the trend in the average. American's purchasing power. After adjusting for inflation, today's hourly wages give the average American less purchasing power than the average U.S. worker had in 1965. Although families have responded by sending more members to work and having them work longer hours, real median family income has fallen more than five percent since 1989. In 1995, total worker compensation--wages plus benefits--grew at its lower rate since this information was first collected in 1982, just barely keeping pace with inflation.

That is from the Clinton boom by the way.

oscarBravo · 18-12-2008 04:08PM

mountainyman wrote: »

Sorry I can't see where he said that you support the illegal exploitation of foreign workers.

He said:

whitser wrote: »

i think the reports out today show why your family restraunt was so keen on foreign labour...76% eateriers are exploiting foreign workers. 2 euro an hour in some cases, although donegalfella and oscar bravo would see nothing wrong with that. "its a free market" and if somne one is happy to work for that then good luck to the employer.

He's claiming that I would see nothing wrong with paying someone less than the minimum wage. That's illegal. I've given him ample opportunity to withdraw the allegation that I'd support this sort of illegal activity, and he has refused to do so.

whitser wrote: »

both are morally wrong imo. and altough you say you dont agree with people being paid less then the minium wage your quite happy to pay skilled tradesmen from abroad 8 euro an hour for work irish men negotiated to be paid 20 euro for. thats explotation imo.

Are you going to continue to lie about me condoning illegal activity, or are you going to apologise?

Stabshauptmann · 18-12-2008 04:39PM

whitser wrote: »

if its unpatriotic to shop across the border??then surley its unpatriotic to employ a foreign worker whos sending home most of their wages back home rather then spending it here, when theres plenty of irish men/women struggling to survive on the dole.
please no more silly nazi remarks.

If you are wondering why your logic is failing, its because you have started from a fatal assumption. Its not unpatriotic to shop accross the boarder. Patriotism shouldnt come into it. When I saw the thread title I thought this was going to be a post ridiculing the governement for such a stupid statement

97i9y3941 · 18-12-2008 04:41PM

gov got their wish anyway,remember during the height of the troubles the irish/uk govs were encouraging businesses to go to the north.....

mountainyman · 18-12-2008 05:25PM

oscarBravo wrote: »

He said: He's claiming that I would see nothing wrong with paying someone less than the minimum wage. That's illegal. I've given him ample opportunity to withdraw the allegation that I'd support this sort of illegal activity, and he has refused to do so.

Are you going to continue to lie about me condoning illegal activity, or are you going to apologise?

I assume that he simply means that he belives that you would see nothing wrong with quasi legal or legal stratagems to minimise wage costs. I take it you have no difficulty with paying trainees, the under 18s or those in receipt of board / lodging less than the minimum wage.

whitser's premise is wrong only a small minority of employees get the minimum wage. If you can speak English badly you should be able to earn a tenner an hour before tax at least in the Leinster region.
MM

mountainyman · 18-12-2008 05:27PM

The Corinthian wrote: »

An opinion will only fail to change if one has not rationally been able to debunk it or you are not interested (or lack the capacity) in changing it. Given the lack of depth in some of the arguments being bandied about here, I'd suggest it mainly comes down to the latter.

I don't believe that basic attitudes towards immigration change though they may become more nuanced.

oscarBravo · 18-12-2008 05:32PM

mountainyman wrote: »

I assume that he simply means that he belives that you would see nothing wrong with quasi legal or legal stratagems to minimise wage costs.

I don't think there's anything quasi-legal about paying restaurant staff €2 per hour.

sovtek · 18-12-2008 06:06PM

oscarBravo wrote: »

I don't think there's anything quasi-legal about paying restaurant staff €2 per hour.

Do you see "nothing wrong with quasi legal or legal stratagems to minimise wage costs."?

oscarBravo · 18-12-2008 06:18PM

sovtek wrote: »

Do you see "nothing wrong with quasi legal or legal stratagems to minimise wage costs."?

I'm not sure what's meant by "quasi-legal", but assuming it's a euphemism for "illegal", of course I see something wrong with it. As for legal stratagems, as a company director I have a legally-binding duty of care to the company to minimise costs where possible.

Going back somewhat on the topic (and with a nod to your original question before you edited it), I work on the assumption that anyone paying €2 per hour to restaurant workers is breaking the law. If that assumption is flawed, perhaps someone can explain how it's possible to do so legally.

sovtek · 18-12-2008 06:34PM

oscarBravo wrote: »

As for legal stratagems, as a company director I have a legally-binding duty of care to the company to minimise costs where possible.

Does that apply to your own remuneration?

buy irish..employ irish

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