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Comments

  • #362
    SheroN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,972 ✭✭✭SheroN


    iwo wrote: »
    maninasia Sorry but again, I think you are blind... And have poor memory. Do U remember joining EU?? Did somebody stop you from going abroad? Did somebody ask you to leave country due to restrictions?? The answer is NO This is the idea of EU.... With no EU you would be probably still eating potatoes!! - (I am not being rude)

    Short memory??

    I eat potatoes most days of the week. What's your point?


  • #363
    anonymous_joe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,255 ✭✭✭anonymous_joe


    iwo wrote: »
    maninasia Sorry but again, I think you are blind... And have poor memory. Do U remember joining EU?? Did somebody stop you from going abroad? Did somebody ask you to leave country due to restrictions?? The answer is NO This is the idea of EU.... With no EU you would be probably still eating potatoes!! - (I am not being rude)

    Short memory??

    Don't forget bacon and cabbage! (*shudders*)

    I think a lot of Irish people have a nasty habit of forgetting what a shíthole we made this country up until the 90s. Irish people had to leave because there was nothing for them here, and a lot of other countries accepted us.

    Bit rich to turn around when we're successful and then complain about immigrants.


  • #364
    maninasia
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,636 ✭✭✭maninasia


    anonymous_joe wrote: »
    Don't forget bacon and cabbage! (*shudders*)

    I think a lot of Irish people have a nasty habit of forgetting what a shíthole we made this country up until the 90s. Irish people had to leave because there was nothing for them here, and a lot of other countries accepted us.

    Bit rich to turn around when we're successful and then complain about immigrants.

    I didn't leave and many other Irish didn't leave because we had to, we left to get experience and travel the world. Irish returnees mainly made Ireland the success it was in the 90s when they brought their industry links and knowledge to kickstart American investment in the economy plus a lot of other fortuitious circumstances including EU membership. I'm sure the same pattern will repeat in some way in Poland and Eastern Europe.
    It wasn't foreigners who did it but Irish people themselves. This is the truth. The other reason we had such a boom was simply us catching up to our neighbours in the UK. Immigration helped our country diversify and prosper but also extended the property and construction boom in an unnatural way among other factors. You'll notice the Irish government and politicians are almost all lawyers, accountants and sons of politicians, they don't have experience of living overseas and constantly make mistakes in things like transportation, immigration, housing etc. because they don't have foreign experience. There are different ways to structure things, just because I don't agree with the current way doesn't make me racist, just not favourable to some people's circumstances. As stated before, no country in the world has had 10% of its immigrants arrive into a basically homogeneous ethnic state in 5 years, that's extraordinary.


  • #365
    iwo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 565 ✭✭✭iwo


    anonymous_joe wrote: »
    Don't forget bacon and cabbage! (*shudders*)

    I think a lot of Irish people have a nasty habit of forgetting what a shíthole we made this country up until the 90s. Irish people had to leave because there was nothing for them here, and a lot of other countries accepted us.

    Bit rich to turn around when we're successful and then complain about immigrants.


    I LOVE YOU :) (just messing)

    This is exactly what I meant to say...


  • #366
    iwo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 565 ✭✭✭iwo


    maninasia wrote: »
    I didn't leave and many other Irish didn't leave because we had to, we left to get experience and travel the world. Irish returnees mainly made Ireland the success it was in the 90s when they brought their industry links and knowledge to kickstart American investment in the economy plus a lot of other fortuitious circumstances including EU membership. I'm sure the same pattern will repeat in some way in Poland and Eastern Europe.
    It wasn't foreigners who did it but Irish people themselves. This is the truth. The other reason we had such a boom was simply us catching up to our neighbours in the UK. Immigration helped our country diversify and prosper but also extended the property and construction boom in an unnatural way among other factors. There are different ways to structure things, just because I don't agree with the current way doesn't make me racist, just not favourable to some people's circumstances. As stated before, no country in the world has had 10% of its immigrants arrive into a basically homogeneous ethnic state in 5 years, that's extraordinary.

    HAHA this is funny, left for experience? Please tell me you are joking... How old are you? You either do not know Irish History or just trying to piss people off. I would suggest you to ask your mum or dad to explain the 80's or 90's...


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  • #367
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,566 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    nortal wrote: »
    More software is produced in Ireland than any where else in the world even in silicone valley in the states.

    doesn't software, as it is copy righted, fall under the artist tax exemptions, which is why so much is produced here. I thought that was one of the reasons why the Irish GDP was so high, because they sell it to themselves from the US at no profit, then sell it on from Ireland at massive profit (Therefore value add) and pay a lower rate of tax?


  • #368
    anonymous_joe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,255 ✭✭✭anonymous_joe


    maninasia wrote: »
    I didn't leave and many other Irish didn't leave because we had to, we left to get experience and travel the world. Irish returnees mainly made Ireland the success it was in the 90s when they brought their industry links and knowledge to kickstart American investment in the economy plus a lot of other fortuitious circumstances including EU membership. I'm sure the same pattern will repeat in some way in Poland and Eastern Europe.
    It wasn't foreigners who did it but Irish people themselves. This is the truth. The other reason we had such a boom was simply us catching up to our neighbours in the UK. Immigration helped our country diversify and prosper but also extended the property and construction boom in an unnatural way among other factors. You'll notice the Irish government and politicians are almost all lawyers, accountants and sons of politicians, they don't have experience of living overseas and constantly make mistakes in things like transportation, immigration, housing etc. because they don't have foreign experience. There are different ways to structure things, just because I don't agree with the current way doesn't make me racist, just not favourable to some people's circumstances. As stated before, no country in the world has had 10% of its immigrants arrive into a basically homogeneous ethnic state in 5 years, that's extraordinary.
    You left for the experience?

    Christ, man, are you aware of the nature of the Irish diaspora? Do you know what a brain drain is? I've a friend whose mother is a doctor born in Ireland. All of her siblings left. All of them. So many left this country because they had no choice. It was unemployment or emmigration. That is a fúcking awful thing to have to do.

    One country has - us. The country hasn't gone to the dogs, in fact, our economic boom was fueled by immigration because we didn't have enough Irish people here to do those jobs.
    iwo wrote: »
    I LOVE YOU :) (just messing)

    This is exactly what I meant to say...

    Heh, thanks.


  • #369
    maninasia
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,636 ✭✭✭maninasia


    iwo wrote: »
    HAHA this is funny, left for experience? Please tell me you are joking... How old are you? You either do not know Irish History or just trying to piss people off. I would suggest you to ask your mum or dad to explain the 80's or 90's...

    Yes, I left for experience as Ireland is small and not easy to get world class high level technical or scientific positions (before, during the boom and now). I went to school during the 80s, I don't need any tosser telling me what it was like, I lived through it with 20% unemployment of the parents of my classmates. The economy only started to pick up when I emigrated after graduating, I worked all the way through school and college. I could have stayed but as I said many many people go abroad to get more skills and more experience and adventure. I didn't emigrate for money and money is not the reason I would go back. What's this about Irish history, I'm talking about rational policies for the here and now, policies that are extended by advanced countries such as the US, Canada, Australia and New Zealand. The immigration Ireland has had, on the whole, is to bring in cheap labour and build houses quickly. It's not well thought out or structured, more like a build houses, then give cheap money to Irish people to buy crappy houses to rent to the immigrants that built the crappy houses. It requires more immigration and more houses to keep the thing going in an artificial manner, that's not 'doing well'. You don't think the country has gone to the dogs, wait till next Spring you will have a rude awakening.


  • #370
    Tha Gopher
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,799 ✭✭✭Tha Gopher


    djpbarry wrote:
    Sorry, what? You’re saying that allowing the free movement of workers is analogous to opening a prison?

    You are the one who believes self regulation is always a good option. Personally I think it is fcuking idiotic.
    Isn’t it? What’s the reason for it then? No economic benefit at all, no?

    The primary concern of the EU is to keep a stranglehold on the smaller nations. If you think Germany and France bring in economically disadvantaged countries out of the goodness of their hearts you are having a laugh mate.
    So your point is irrelevant as far as this thread is concerned.

    Pretty much every point and counter arguement you have made is irrelevant, as far as this thread is concerned. What is your response when you see that I am correct? oh...ehhh. you`re irrelevant! Classy :)
    Yes I do, hence why I pointed out the error.

    You never answered my question re your opinion of the roma. But then again I didnt expect you to.


  • #371
    jan_kowalski
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39 ✭jan_kowalski


    maninasia wrote: »
    I didn't leave and many other Irish didn't leave because we had to, we left to get experience and travel the world.

    Right, don't want to be too picky here, but are you trying to say everyone had well paid job back there in '70s here and was only travelling to get overseas experience and just for craic? :D
    maninasia wrote: »
    As stated before, no country in the world has had 10% of its immigrants arrive into a basically homogeneous ethnic state in 5 years, that's extraordinary.

    Hmmm, are you sure?
    What about.... America? And indian natives?
    The indigenous people of the U.S. were flooded and colonized by European bastards :D, mainly Spaniards, French and British, starting back then in 15th century.
    They would be vary happy these days with 10% immigration, they got like 1000000% and overkill :eek:

    Do you want more up to date example?
    Germany and Turks - there was more than 10% immigration of Turkish into Germany, cannot remember exact numbers but think there are more than 5 million :eek: Turkish settled down now in Germany.

    But to give you credit, I agree - it's still pretty big number and shocking situation for Ireland, I do agree. Maybe people were not prepared for that that's true.


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  • #372
    iwo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 565 ✭✭✭iwo


    SheroN wrote: »
    I eat potatoes most days of the week. What's your point?

    "What's your point?[/quote]"

    I am sorry but that would be wasting my time...


    maninasia

    AGAIN... You stated many thoughts, most of them were incorrect... it would be nice to see some good arguments and proper data. I understand you concerns but try to see the "elephant in the room".


  • #373
    djpbarry
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    maninasia wrote: »
    The strategy should be limit immigration numbers per year as does Canada, Australia and the US and implement a point system based on EU membership, education level and skillset which is modified year to year according to economic and employment conditions.
    Why do you think such a system is necessary? Migration is largely self-regulating; people come when jobs are plentiful, people leave when they are not.
    maninasia wrote: »
    Racism is not rational yet it exists as a fundamental part of human nature, ignoring it doesn't fix it.
    Nor does pandering to it.
    maninasia wrote: »
    Integration is about speaking the local language(s), having local friends and acquaintances and being able to avail of the same rights and priviledges of local born people.
    Speaking the language, yes obviously. But surely it’s up to the individual who they befriend?
    maninasia wrote: »
    Integration means not seeing schools like in West Dublin where almost all the schoolchildren are foreign born because locals don't want to send their kid there.
    What schools are these? The reason I ask is that my wife spends a good deal of her time visiting schools around Dublin and I think she would make a point of telling me about a school where almost all the kids were foreign.
    maninasia wrote: »
    I resent PC people like you who don't admit the reality of the situation.
    What have I not admitted to? I’m still waiting for someone to point out the problem that needs fixing. From where I sit, our biggest problem at present is an economic one.


  • #374
    djpbarry
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    nortal wrote: »
    There are more companies in Ireland other than Microsoft, what about the pharmaceutical industry in the south…
    What about them? How many are Irish-owned?
    nortal wrote: »
    Aer lingus and Ryanair are among the largest once the take over is complete they will be.
    In Europe? Maybe. In the world? I don’t think so, but then, it depends on how you’re measuring I suppose.


  • #375
    djpbarry
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Tha Gopher wrote: »
    You are the one who believes self regulation is always a good option.
    No I don’t. Nice straw man.
    Tha Gopher wrote: »
    Personally I think it is fcuking idiotic.
    Personally, I think your analogy is ****ing idiotic.
    Tha Gopher wrote: »
    If you think Germany and France bring in economically disadvantaged countries out of the goodness of their hearts you are having a laugh mate.
    They are doing it for their own economic advantage, are they not? Is that not what I said?
    Tha Gopher wrote: »
    What is your response when you see that I am correct? oh...ehhh. you`re irrelevant! Classy :)
    :rolleyes: You made the point that France has a large number of immigrants from Africa and Asia. What makes that “correct” in a thread on EU migration is beyond me.
    Tha Gopher wrote: »
    You never answered my question re your opinion of the roma.
    Well I haven’t met them all yet, but I’ll be sure to compile a full report for you when I do.

    I think what you meant to ask was what is my opinion of Romani gypsies who “beg” on the streets of Dublin? I don’t like it. Once again, what’s the relevance?


  • #376
    iwo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 565 ✭✭✭iwo


    nortal wrote: »
    what about the pharmaceutical industry in the south, we could go on but it’s open to conjecture

    EeEeEeEeE..... Let me think.... 10% ? I work for pharmaceutical company as Executive. I now what I am saying... Again, another argument which is wrong... Keep trying ;)


  • #377
    Tchaikovsky
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,185 ✭✭✭Tchaikovsky


    jan_kowalski wrote: »
    Sweden is also small country like Ireland - so here we are with your example of another small 'like Irlenad' country which opened up fully for immigration. Another one? Netherlands - roughly size of Ireland. Another one? Belgium.

    So your theory fails here mate...
    Thing is, Sweden, Belgium and Holland have had decades of continuous immigration, not 5 years of it, and they obviously have competent (non-corrupt) governments capable of integrating those who come to live in their countries. Sweden took in thousands of refugees from the war in Yugoslavia and Kosovo, Iraq and Afghanistan - imagine us doing that! :eek:
    Sweden aside, all the countries mentioned (France, UK, Spain, Holland, Belgium) have all had brutal histories of colonization and profiting from Africa, Asia and S.America so there is a moral obligation for these countries to help these people. Ireland is the first post-colonized country, to my knowledge, to experience mass immigration.


  • #378
    Tchaikovsky
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,185 ✭✭✭Tchaikovsky


    maninasia wrote: »
    We need more skilled workers in our country and we should encourage skilled workers to move here, first for the EU and then from other countries.
    We could always concentrate on educating Irish people and giving them a fair chance at getting a third-level qualification, right?


  • #379
    maninasia
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,636 ✭✭✭maninasia


    They do have a fair chance, free education, subsidies for low income households, they're just lazy or criminals.
    As a Dubliner and from an area close enough to the north inner city, I see and feel the changes more than most when I go home. The government doesn't because they live in more expensive areas. They just think of immigrants in statistical terms.

    http://www.newtotown.ie/forum/living-ireland/foreign-nationals-outnumber-irish-dublin-s-inner-city-729.html


  • #380
    mayordenis
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 9,814 Mod ✭✭✭✭mayordenis


    Tchaikovsky wrote: »
    We could always concentrate on educating Irish people and giving them a fair chance at getting a third-level qualification, right?

    What? nonsense


  • #381
    m5ex9oqjawdg2i
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,217 ✭✭✭✭m5ex9oqjawdg2i


    maninasia wrote: »
    ...they're just lazy or criminals.


    Who are???


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  • #382
    maninasia
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,636 ✭✭✭maninasia


    The aliens, who do you think? The social welfare bums of course.


  • #383
    m5ex9oqjawdg2i
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,217 ✭✭✭✭m5ex9oqjawdg2i


    Oh here's another generalisation from yet another misinformed, uneducated poster. You know nothing so please do not post :) Now shoo...

    Why must people on social welfare fall into only two categories?


  • #384
    nortal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 125 ✭✭nortal


    iwo wrote: »
    nortal wrote: »
    what about the pharmaceutical industry in the south, we could go on but it’s open to conjecture

    EeEeEeEeE..... Let me think.... 10% ? I work for pharmaceutical company as Executive. I now what I am saying... Again, another argument which is wrong... Keep trying ;)

    I have no idea what reference you are referring to. Go back and read my reply to a post, you clearly don't understand what the 10% is referencing. So no the argument is not wrong, it’s a fact.

    Btw dimplex is another you missed,

    No other country ever arrived in Ireland in the past (except the Vikings) and took it over Irish people can not be dictated to by others its part of their make up, if you understand that it makes understanding them much easier.

    Sweden is being held up as an example of perfect harmony it is not, a great country socially for its citizens however Polish people are regarded as second class by Swedish people, Poland was invaded by Sweden. Sweden does have a large immigrant population but there are racial tensions, not overly btw but some poster decides to get overly pedantic

    I don't want to get into the what Multi nationals does Poland have because it is simply childish way to discus this debate too many poster are critical with no actual solutions to resolve a problem that is going to explode in a subtle way, with under hand racial tensions,

    Most eastern European posters have in my view have ignored rational thoughts and worries of OUR HOST country, there is now a growing sense of entitlement and it appears from the posts they can not be criticised in any way, by anyone but particularly the IRISH. Ireland has been an excellent country to polish and other nationalities, I think Irish people should be congratulated and thanked for their generosity, they are good people, easy going and to be fair if the effort is made very very easy to get along with.

    So based on all of the above I will not be contributing to this debate – Irrespective of what pedantic replies I get to my above post.


  • #385
    jan_kowalski
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39 ✭jan_kowalski


    nortal wrote: »
    Sweden is being held up as an example of perfect harmony it is not, a great country socially for its citizens however Polish people are regarded as second class by Swedish people, Poland was invaded by Sweden. Sweden does have a large immigrant population but there are racial tensions, not overly btw but some poster decides to get overly pedantic

    If you are referencing my comment here, I did not say Sweden is a perfect harmony place. I just said Ireland was not only small country opened up fully for immigration. And this was truth.
    There are pretty good tensions in Sweden, but please notice it's mainly for Muslims! I have to agree with you that Poles are there 2nd class citizens, but this is nothing new. We are 2nd class people in Germany, in Austria, in Switzerland, not very fond of us in France either. This is just immigrants life. Where is the country where immigrants are 1st class citizens?

    But to be honest, the same time they are bitching about Poles and same time need us like breathing air. Who will pick german farmer tomatoes or beans? German lad? Muslim lad? Black lad? Turkish lad? No offence here to formers, but Ha Ha good joke.
    Nobody will do it apart for Poles (and other east european countries, Ukraineans are amazing workers from my experiences...) this is 'unspoken' truth and they know it pretty good. As Poles are mostly hard workers with a good attitude, simple as that.
    Do you know what happened last summer in Polish (especially west country side) job centres?
    German farmers were crying out loud big time with their jobs ads, as they missed worforce big time and there was very little interest - Poles were better off in UK or Ireland (salary wise and also personal reasons - for many involved...). So they put like 70 thousands of jobs in Polish job centres and get filled maybe 10-20K - low interest.

    I fully understand Irish concerns and doubts as this is very new situation, but believe me, no country in world ended up badly filled by hard working workforce who pays taxes and contributes to society. It benefits everyone.

    Polish immigration in Ireland is new - 95% not older than 4 years, but Polish immigration in USA and Canada is old and huge, I'd say approx. 2-5 millions of Poles, mostly emmigrated in '80s and early '90. Some of them don't speak polish anymore (who were born there all right) - sadly...
    And know what, nobody ever complained at them, as they pulled their socks up, worked hard and worked their positions in those countries.
    Everybody benefited from it, local economy, other people - as Poles run there many business and employ natives too, nothing unusuall.
    I hope the same happens in Ireland, as I hate and would shoot any spongers myself :D

    Good luck


  • #386
    iwo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 565 ✭✭✭iwo


    nortal wrote: »
    iwo wrote: »
    nortal wrote: »
    thoughts and worries of OUR HOST country, there is now a growing sense of entitlement and it appears from the posts they can not be criticised in any way, by anyone but particularly the IRISH.

    I do not know, maybe this is a problem... "my" "our" etc. Do not forget, WE are in EU... You are right, this subject is to complicated for few people talking about it on forum. We will not find solution at the moment. However, the fact is, emigrants are here and will be here. 27000 people will leave Ireland in 2009 most of them will be Polish, but good few Irish is planning to leave to USA and Australia. I hope that they will find work and peace.
    We will not change people but we could change our behaviours. World is getting smaller and smaller (from logistic point of view) you are here at the moment and you could be in Poland within 3 hours, people emigrate and this trend will increase. We have to accept it!!


  • #387
    maninasia
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,636 ✭✭✭maninasia


    You are in Ireland first, EU second. We are not Euroyankees yet :) I don't think many people have a problem with immigration, just we have different opinions on the process and how to handle that.


  • #388
    teetotaller
    Closed Accounts Posts: 188 ✭✭teetotaller


    jan_kowalski wrote: »
    Fully agree.
    Teetotaller sounded too harsh in my opinion too (I am the best and you suck!), however this might not be his intention, that's what you get when english is not your 1st language and you let slip your words slightly wrong way. Teetotaller you should not be saying Irish wearing tracksuits at interview, for me this is b*ll*x, probably just your imagination?
    Better look at yours (and mine!) countrymates wearing Lidl's bags in the gym, LOL :D
    Am I right m8?

    yep u are right, but I never said I'm the best - I'm just average person better then few, but worse than a lot.


    it is not an imagination about tracksuits - some young Irish people don't take life to seriously, and cos life for them was easy while living with parents they expect, that everything is waiting for them. Time is changing and I think that competition is a good thing. It can't be too easy as it would be boring :)


  • #389
    teetotaller
    Closed Accounts Posts: 188 ✭✭teetotaller


    nortal wrote: »
    To suggest that the listed products are the only ones manufactured by Irish companies is simply wrong and purposely condescending. Larger US and other multinational companies are here producing, some are Irish owned some are partiality Irish owned.

    More software is produced in Ireland than any where else in the world even in silicone valley in the states. Irish companies regularly lead the way in innovation, as you have used Ryan air, between both Ryan air and Aer Lingus Ireland the two largest passenger airlines in the world, from a population of 3.5 million. Multi national have their HQ in Ireland for a good reason, educational & highly motivated workforce, who despite the popular myth do work very hard.

    .

    you didn't get me correctly.
    I was asking about Irish products and companies in Ireland. not UK or US.

    Do you know, that Ryanair is so succesfull thanks to US company Southwest Airlines, Micheal O'Leary spent there long time getting management skills in large airline company. So he is Irish, but his success is thanks to American people.


  • #390
    Tchaikovsky
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,185 ✭✭✭Tchaikovsky


    Because the population and size of Ireland and the US are roughly the same right?

    It's ironic that a Pole is commenting on our economy and our workforce when despite their qualifications and everything, they have to migrate here to find work.


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  • #391
    teetotaller
    Closed Accounts Posts: 188 ✭✭teetotaller


    Tchaikovsky wrote: »

    It's ironic that a Pole is commenting on our economy and our workforce when despite their qualifications and everything, they have to migrate here to find work.


    I'd say that it is ironic that Irish people who are educated and qualified had to get huge help from EU and USA and UK companies to became celtic tiger.

    It is so funny that people already forgot situation in Ireland that was just few decades ago.

    and now when situation is not too good, they would like to kick off all non nationals except blond east european beauties.


This discussion has been closed.
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