Man murdered by youth(s) after home attacked(yes it happened in Ireland)

asdasd · 11-12-2008 04:28PM

Just as a matter of interest, how precisely have these 'liberal lefty tree huggers' engineered this general situation? What have they put in place?

Its more what they oppose. The judicary, largely coming from the same elite classes as most liberals, has adopted the liberal stance of seeing victimisers as victims i.e. criminality is caused by poverty. This kind of nonsense can be disproven by a two year old.

it is a class issue. the rich and upper middle classes can afford to be liberal, because street criminality is largely directed against the poor. Some parts of Dublin have 20 times more chance of a house being broken into than others, and they would be poor areas.

( which puts a lie to sociological cant about the system picking on "working class" criminals. If the criminal classes were popping out to Dalkey, abseiling from the chandelier ,whilst avoiding the dogs and lasers, to steal the rare diamond I , for one, would not give a ****. I bet sentences would be tougher, though).

So the upper middle classes dont care. It is class war. They are prepared to hide behind faux-radicalism, and sanctimonious self-regarding claptrap about protecting the vulnerable. Clearly the working class old are more vulnerable than the criminal young, the single working man more vulnerable than the criminal gang, the gunless more vulnerable than criminal with the gun. About this they say nothing, and are prepared to allow entire Estates be controlled by criminals in case the criminals "human rights" be hampered, and if we make jail tougher they complain more, and if sentences go higher even more.

why wouldnt they? Criminality doesnt affect them. Lack of concern about it is a proxy display of wealth.

If it ever does affect the citizens of Dalkey to the same extent it affects the citizens of East Wall we will be living in a police State.

Zulu · 11-12-2008 04:30PM

Liam Byrne wrote: »

We used to have corporal and capital punishment, and it worked; we went all soft and pretended it was a bad idea, and the current generation of scum are a million times worse.

Bullshit. May countries have corporal and capital punishment, yet still have these issue - if not worse.
Fact: There is no proof to suggest that capital/corporal punishment work.
Fact: There is proof to suggest that capital/corporal punishment don't work.

mernj · 11-12-2008 04:40PM

Ive lived in East Wall for the last 4 years, and we always had trouble with the same group of kids that were arrested for the murder.

The guy suspected for shooting is my neighbour who Id say hi to most days, and was a ringleader in stoning our house, breaking our windows and denting our cars when we first moved to East Wall!

luckily theyve left us alone for the last year after we rang the guards several times, spoke to the local shop owner, local butcher, head of residents association and the neighbours!!!!

As far as I can see they target newbies, or people that are vulnerable / have had rows with, and if you react (which we regrettably did) they find it funny, and keep after you. Someone obviously had a word with them and they eventually left us alone.

Went out after them a few times, and I was threatened that I wont have a car or a house if I didnt watch myself! ... and my neighbours were threatened by a nine inch knife! I just cant believe its the same groups of kids that have now killed someone - I just thought they were vandals, certainly not capable of murder!!......

Nodin · 11-12-2008 04:49PM

asdasd wrote: »

Its more what (............)State.

Yet when sentences were horrendous for even minor offences, there was a higher rate of crime than now.

HAGI · 11-12-2008 04:55PM

mernj wrote: »

Ive lived in East Wall for the last 4 years, and we always had trouble with the same group of kids that were arrested for the murder.

The guy suspected for shooting is my neighbour who Id say hi to most days, and was a ringleader in stoning our house, breaking our windows and denting our cars when we first moved to East Wall!

luckily theyve left us alone for the last year after we rang the guards several times, spoke to the local shop owner, local butcher, head of residents association and the neighbours!!!!

As far as I can see they target newbies, or people that are vulnerable / have had rows with, and if you react (which we regrettably did) they find it funny, and keep after you. Someone obviously had a word with them and they eventually left us alone.

Went out after them a few times, and I was threatened that I wont have a car or a house if I didnt watch myself! ... and my neighbours were threatened by a nine inch knife! I just cant believe its the same groups of kids that have now killed someone - I just thought they were vandals, certainly not capable of murder!!......

i live on their road to
didnt think any1 in east wall was capable of murder

asdasd · 11-12-2008 04:55PM

Yet when sentences were horrendous for even minor offences, there was a higher rate of crime than now.

How far back are you going?

11-12-2008 04:58PM

HAGI wrote: »

i live on their road to
didnt think any1 in east wall was capable of murder

So Hagi,what were these lads like?Were you friends with them?

tech77 · 11-12-2008 05:40PM

Would this be a fair summary of the last few pages:

1) A good few posters, many from East Wall (or other areas affected by oppressive antisocial behaviour) who have to deal with this sh1t on a daily basis, crying out for harsher punishment of these scummers (knowing well that rehab/the softly-softly approach can only do so much).

2) a couple of liberal dissenters (with no real experience of the reality of antisocial scummers) espousing lofty ideals and tut-tutting at anything other than rehabilitation.

Scallop · 11-12-2008 05:43PM

They are scumsucking animals.

their intimidation was relentless everywhere they went in East Wall.

I dont know them personally so HAGI as above, can you shed any light on what they were like from your perspective

tech77 · 11-12-2008 05:45PM

asdasd wrote: »

Its more what they oppose. The judicary, largely coming from the same elite classes as most liberals, has adopted the liberal stance of seeing victimisers as victims i.e. criminality is caused by poverty. This kind of nonsense can be disproven by a two year old.

it is a class issue. the rich and upper middle classes can afford to be liberal, because street criminality is largely directed against the poor. Some parts of Dublin have 20 times more chance of a house being broken into than others, and they would be poor areas.

( which puts a lie to sociological cant about the system picking on "working class" criminals. If the criminal classes were popping out to Dalkey, abseiling from the chandelier ,whilst avoiding the dogs and lasers, to steal the rare diamond I , for one, would not give a ****. I bet sentences would be tougher, though).

So the upper middle classes dont care. It is class war. They are prepared to hide behind faux-radicalism, and sanctimonious self-regarding claptrap about protecting the vulnerable. Clearly the working class old are more vulnerable than the criminal young, the single working man more vulnerable than the criminal gang, the gunless more vulnerable than criminal with the gun. About this they say nothing, and are prepared to allow entire Estates be controlled by criminals in case the criminals "human rights" be hampered, and if we make jail tougher they complain more, and if sentences go higher even more.

why wouldnt they? Criminality doesnt affect them. Lack of concern about it is a proxy display of wealth.

If it ever does affect the citizens of Dalkey to the same extent it affects the citizens of East Wall we will be living in a police State.

I'd say there's quite a bit of truth in that post.

Ouijaboard · 11-12-2008 06:06PM

Nodin wrote: »

......only in respect of the firearm. 'Cider crazed youth' was a popular tabloideque expression at the time.

I'm not suprised to see this thread has become the usual mixture of 'rosy past meets lynch mob'.

Oh yes I remember the days, so I do, the summers were longer, beautiful scorching days, it was bright till midnight, you could leave your doors wide open over night, the kids mowed your lawn for free, fantastic times....

....you must think we are all living in a dream mate, 'cider crazed yoof' were nothing like the scummers now, not even close, 'cider crazed yoof' drank in the park and greens and annoyed a few passersby, there was no such thing as organised eviction parties doing everything in their power to remove people from their homes, i recently witnessed a 75 year old woman being stoned as she left her house because she had the guile to phone the guards about her door being kicked in off the hinges the previous night.

Let me guess, you must be mork from dalkey....

vestanpance · 11-12-2008 06:14PM

tech77 wrote: »

Would this be a fair summary of the last few pages:

1) A good few posters, many from East Wall (or other areas affected by oppressive antisocial behaviour) who have to deal with this sh1t on a daily basis, crying out for harsher punishment of these scummers (knowing well that rehab/the softly-softly approach can only do so much).

2) a couple of liberal dissenters (with no real experience of the reality of antisocial scummers) espousing lofty ideals and tut-tutting at anything other than rehabilitation.

Pretty much spot on to me.

kleefarr · 11-12-2008 06:18PM

cougar1 wrote: »

Oh yes I remember the days, so I do, the summers were longer, beautiful scorching days, it was bright till midnight, you could leave your doors wide open over night, the kids mowed your lawn for free, fantastic times....

Ah, those were the days.

cougar1 wrote: »

....you must think we are all living in a dream mate, 'cider crazed yoof' were nothing like the scummers now....

** BIG THUMBS UP TO THAT**

marcsignal · 11-12-2008 06:27PM

Terry wrote: »

Right. Everyone here needs to calm down.

Yes, there has been a murder, but throweing hissy fits here won't help.

Please think before you post and if you are seeing red, then don't post.

No more bebo links and no more alluding to the names of anyone who may or may not be involved.

You're right there Terry, and I'll have to put my own hands up and admit I was fuming, with a few pints on board when I posted last night after I read what Klein posted, telling us what that man went through, and what other familys in East Wall have to put up with.

I can't express even trying to understand the horror Aidans son must be feeling, to have had his father mercilessly gunned down 3 weeks before Christmas, I just cannot fathom it.:mad:

When are the people of Ireland going to say "enough is enough", and protest outside the Dail over the pathetic bungling by the powers that be? This case on it's own is horiffic enough, but lets not forget all the others in the past year, and before that, who have been caught in the crossfire. Innocent people, none of who deserved to have their lives stolen from them in such a callous, barbaric, savage way.

The people protested over Medical Cards and Education cuts

. There should be a strong highly visible protest over this situation outside Government Buildings. If it happens I for one will be there in a flash, to express my revulsion and disgust, and I'm sure many other posters/citizens would be too.

SpookyDoll · 11-12-2008 06:30PM

When are the people of Ireland going to say "enough is enough", and protest outside the Dail over the indecicive bungling by the powers that be.

Yep, has tipping point not been reached here?

I have to admit I am also more angry about this than I have been about anything in a long time. This was all so preventable.

I would protest in a heartbeat too.

Darragh29 · 11-12-2008 06:39PM

SpookyDoll wrote: »

Yep, has tipping point not been reached here?

I have to admit I am also more angry about this than I have been about anything in a long time. This was all so preventable.

I would protest in a heartbeat too.

It's an absolute fu*king outrage, there is no other way to describe it.

Orange69 · 11-12-2008 06:53PM

Darragh29 wrote: »

It's an absolute fu*king outrage, there is no other way to describe it.

If you are outraged now then wait for the 2 year sentence this little bastard will get...

marcsignal · 11-12-2008 08:01PM

Zulu wrote: »

Which would be what? Can anyone who suggest having the army on the streets please answer the questions:
What would the Army do exactly? Just be a presence??

Would you give them the power to restrain people? Even arrest people??

Would you train the army in civil law so this would be legit?

Or are you just looking for a uniformed vigilante group to be present?

In fairness to you Zulu, all of the above that you mention, are absolutely legitimate questions/concerns that would certainly have to be addressed, if, hypothetically, it were ever to happen, so I'll give it a try, because the points you raise certainly could not be ignored or dismissed.

Firstly, I can't see how it would be unconstitutional to take such a measure. The Irish Defence Forces, apart from their UN obligations, are there to defend this country, from threats compromising our national securtiy, coming from outside our borders, and from within. In the case of internal threats, it is the Armys duty to aid the Civil Power (Gardai). In this case I would suggest a task force made up of Armed ERU Gardai, Army Personnel, and Uniformed Gardai (Possibly Armed).
The Gardai would esentially be in overall Command of such a Task Force.

* What would the Army do exactly? Just be a presence??
Yes and No. They could be there as a visible show of muscle, but essentially a backup to the ERU.
Every small Patrol could consist of, an ERU Garda in command of an Army Section (2 NCO's and six? men).

* Would you give them the power to restrain people? Even arrest people??
That would be at the discretion of the ERU Garda in command of each section, because, esentially, he would be the one giving the orders.

* Would you train the army in civil law so this would be legit?
This would be a special task force, so some training would be needed. This is certainly do-able, the EU policed the former Yugoslavia, Kosovo and other places. Irish Gardai served there (I know this because my brother in law was one of them) and worked hand in hand with the Military forces stationed there.

* Or are you just looking for a uniformed vigilante group to be present?
Definitely NOT.

I accept that this suggeation seems drastic, but armed gangs cannot be allowed to operate with impunity in this country.
They are threatening the very fabric of our Democracy, they are destroying lives, undermining our National Security, and MUST be removed from the equation, before they totally destroy a whole generation of vulnerable children, and murder anyone else.

dan719 · 11-12-2008 08:23PM

Botany Bay wrote: »

I know i'll be accussed of being irrational, ridiculous and immoral. But like the murder of the two Polish guys in Drimnagh. This case seems to resonate to the point where, killing the perpetrators is the only logical course of action.

Consider it for just a moment. It's not a case of justice, revenge, or even some kneejerk reaction. If anything it's preventative. If this 13 year old, committed this murder, then he'll likely, in the event that he's convicted. Will serve a maximum of 12-15 years. I'd say he'd be out in about 10. He'll have most of his twenties ahead of him, and unlikely will have changed in any way. He'll probably commit or will have a tendancy to commit further crimes. He'll forever be a burden on society and a threat to many innocent civilians. So what is the point in keeping him alive???

I said at the time, that the 16 year old. Who murdered those two Polish guys, should get a death sentence. I still believe that, and would extend the same courtesy to the individual who killed that man last night.

Regardless of what people may say. Two human lives are not equal. There are a great many human beings in society who contribute nothing but grief and misery to the rest. I fail to see why they should be kept alive.

You want to execute a thirteen year old? Beyond words....:rolleyes:

Darragh29 · 11-12-2008 08:28PM

dan719 wrote: »

You want to execute a thirteen year old? Beyond words....:rolleyes:

If he's hard enough to strut around town with a loaded handgun and then deliberately shoot someone dead, then he's hard enough to be fu*ked off the business end of the gallows.

dan719 · 11-12-2008 08:33PM

Ignoring the fact that I disagree with capital punishment in all cases,your willing to put to death a persom whom;

is not legally allowed to drink or smoke in this state.
not old enough to have a job, vote or claim state welfare.
is neither physically or mentally developed

Not only that but you happily ignore that the death penalty does not exist in Ireland. I reckon you should go back to dreaming up your twisted little punishments.

Darragh29 · 11-12-2008 08:41PM

dan719 wrote: »

Ignoring the fact that I disagree with capital punishment in all cases,your willing to put to death a persom whom;
is not legally allowed to drink or smoke in this state.

not old enough to have a job, vote or claim state welfare.

is neither physically or mentally developed

Not only that but you happily ignore that the death penalty does not exist in Ireland. I reckon you should go back to dreaming up your twisted little punishments.

No, not hard enough to drink or smoke but hard enough to carry a loaded handgun and shoot a man dead, depriving his son of a father 2 weeks before Christmas. No, unfortunately we don't have capital punishment in Ireland, but this little pea balled c*nting scumbag should be looking at the business end of the hangmans rope if we did...

marcsignal · 11-12-2008 09:00PM

dan719 wrote: »

You want to execute a thirteen year old? Beyond words....:rolleyes:

has it not been established that this 13 yr old boy is actually a 16 yr old ?

I'm not going to comment on whether he should be strung up or not, but I will say i'm sometimes slightly amused by some of the reactions of some posters that would appear to lean to the left on these issues, who may say: "poor little johnnie, but he's had a very hard and unstable upbringing you know"

I'd guess (and it's just a guess mind), that if this individual was a serial paedophile or rapist, the feminist left would want to cut his balls off without delay. If he was a right wing skinhead who torched a centre for Asylum Seekers and burned several of them to death as they slept, many of those leaning left would want him strung up from the nearest lamp post.

Its just my observation, that peoples principles can sometimes be very 'wishy washy', depending on the circumstances.

Darragh29 · 11-12-2008 09:14PM

marcsignal wrote: »

has it not been established that this 13 yr old boy is actually a 16 yr old ?

I'm not going to comment on whether he should be strung up or not, but I will say i'm sometimes slightly amused by some of the reactions of some posters that would appear to lean to the left on these issues.

I'd guess (and it's just a guess mind), that if this individual was a serial paedophile or rapist, the feminist left would want to cut his balls off without delay. If he was a right wing skinhead who torched a centre for Asylum Seekers and burned several of them to death as they slept, many of those leaning left would want him strung up from the nearest lamp post.

Its just my observation, that peoples principles can sometimes be very 'wishy washy', depending on the circumstances.

Look, I don't give a monkey's fu*k what his motives might have been or what his politics are. It doesn't matter to me. What does matter is the crime, nothing else, not his background or his drunken father who probably spends all day in the pub and all night smoking joints.

We have become the biggest nation of serial apologists that now seeks to explain away everything that goes wrong, as being caused by social injustice and this that and the other. If you go down to any District Court in Dublin, you will see solicitor after solicitor getting on their feet like prostitutes, making up all sorts of excuses as to why their client did X, Y, or Z. You'll see their tracksuit wearing scumbag clients, who the state is paying for, smirking and laughing at the whole process before them, laughing at the solicitor defending them, laughing at the judge sentencing them, laughing at the public paying for the whole thing...

How is anyone meant to have respect for society when this is what is going on???

marcsignal · 11-12-2008 09:19PM

Darragh29 wrote: »

Look, I don't give a monkey's fu*k what his motives might have been or what his politics are.

i wasn't talking about you Darragh29, from what i can gather you don't fit the profile of a leftie liberal

in fact i broadly agree with the rest of your post.

Terry · 11-12-2008 09:21PM

Darragh29 wrote: »

Look, I don't give a monkey's fu*k what his motives might have been or what his politics are. It doesn't matter to me. What does matter is the crime, nothing else, not his background or his drunken father who probably spends all day in the pub and all night smoking joints.

We have become the biggest nation of serial apologists that now seeks to explain away everything that goes wrong, as being caused by social injustice and this that and the other. If you go down to any District Court in Dublin, you will see solicitor after solicitor getting on their feet like prostitutes, making up all sorts of excuses as to why their client did X, Y, or Z. You'll see their tracksuit wearing scumbag clients, who the state is paying for, smirking and laughing at the whole process before them, laughing at the solicitor defending them, laughing at the judge sentencing them, laughing at the public paying for the whole thing...

How is anyone meant to have respect for society when this is what is going on???

Listen, I see where you're coming from, but you really need to tone it down a bit.

Calling for heads to roll will not get your arguement across properly.

Just calm down a little before posting again.

Sorry if that seems condescending.

dresden8 · 11-12-2008 09:25PM

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhsnaukfcwsn/

Five months for assault and attempted murder of a Garda.

It's no wonder we're fucked.

dresden8 · 11-12-2008 09:26PM

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhsnaukfmhau/

Maybe this piece of sh1t needs a hug from a social worker to make him feel better after his ordeal.

Darragh29 · 11-12-2008 09:28PM

Terry wrote: »

Listen, I see where you're coming from, but you really need to tone it down a bit.

Calling for heads to roll will not get your arguement across properly.

Just calm down a little before posting again.

Sorry if that seems condescending.

Well what should I suggest, a committee, a task force, or more of the same complete lack of action that in my opinion has directly led to the death of this man??? Give it a few months and we'll all be shocked on here again when an 8 year old or something walks down Grafton Street with a Kalashnakof and takes half the street away...

I'm so angry about this...

dresden8 · 11-12-2008 09:28PM

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhsnaukfeymh/

This piece of sh1t didn't stab anyone, he just "poked" him with a knife.

Poor lad, hope he doesn't get PTSD.

Man murdered by youth(s) after home attacked(yes it happened in Ireland)

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