Man murdered by youth(s) after home attacked(yes it happened in Ireland)

Terry · 10-12-2008 04:11PM

jtsuited wrote: »

ok so is anyone willing to admit that Ireland has created an underclass?

A class of people who have absolutely nothing to lose so can do anything they want, and the worst we can do is put them in a prison etc?

While I believe in personal responsibility and think that yes some people are too quick to blame society, video games, etc., this problem will never go away until that underclass situation is dealt with. More prisons or zero tolerance don't fix it.

Unfortunately a certain Austrian in the first half of the 20th century gave the term Eugenics a bad name, so mass sterilisation is out of question.

Of course ther eis an underclass, but the thing is prison is too good to them.

I recently spent a few hours in the 'joy (I can call t that now) and they live a life of luxury there (apart from the toilet facilities).
Three square meals a day.
Access to methadone.
Access to other drugs.
TVs in their cells.
A gym.

They basically don't have to do anything for themselves.

We really need chain gangs and to give them less time out of their cells.
Take away the TV too.
Let them read a book and if they can't read, then teach them how to read.
If they don't want to learn, then **** them and let them rot in their cells.

manatee · 10-12-2008 04:22PM

I dont think that type can read if you look at the bebo links

they can barely spell

jtsuited · 10-12-2008 04:32PM

Terry wrote: »

Of course ther eis an underclass, but the thing is prison is too good to them.

I recently spent a few hours in the 'joy (I can call t that now) and they live a life of luxury there (apart from the toilet facilities).
Three square meals a day.
Access to methadone.
Access to other drugs.
TVs in their cells.
A gym.

They basically don't have to do anything for themselves.

We really need chain gangs and to give them less time out of their cells.
Take away the TV too.
Let them read a book and if they can't read, then teach them how to read.
If they don't want to learn, then **** them and let them rot in their cells.

ya see this is my point. to a lot of these underclass people, prison is literally not that much worse than what they have on the outside (and in some ways even better).

but the reality is that we will never be able to have the prisons that you talk of. human rights issues come into play, and it's not long before the term 'cruel and unusual punishment' will be spouted by everyone from Amnesty International (i have no issue with organisations like Amnesty btw) to the UN.

So really it's a case of eliminating the underclass somehow. And that is a job for society in a broader sense. What is referred to as yob or chav culture in Britain is starting to be a problem here now.

Dispersing the poor's population so that it's not so concentrated in areas where things like this happen is one part of a greater solution. Population control (abortion law etc) is another.

The welfare system that gives sustainable income to someone just because they have children is a contributing factor in the growth of the underclass. Single mother's allowance in it's present form is a recipe for disaster as people will have no incentive to cease being uneducated and unemployed. There are a lot of harsh truths we have to recognise in our society before we can fix this problem.

Unfortunately we do not have the resources, or even bureaucratic efficiency to deal with these problems in the way Germany do. So we need to be a bit more long term and simple in our approach.

manatee · 10-12-2008 05:31PM

I think its time the people lured these waster scumbags down a laneway and spoke to them in their own s**t drenched language.

Its going to be sooner rather than later.

Quickfire · 10-12-2008 06:03PM

Exactly. Poverty is not the cause of crime.

Morlar · 10-12-2008 06:07PM

Quickfire wrote: »

Exactly. Poverty is not the cause of crime.

Nor is it a mitigating factor imo.

They just charged a 16 yr old with the murder :

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhidsnsnqley/

10/12/2008 - 16:48:26
A 16-year-old boy was brought before the Children’s Court today charged with the murder of Dubliner Aidan O‘Kane who was shot dead at the weekend.

Father of one Aidan O’Kane, a mechanic who was aged 50, died following a row with teenagers near his home at Shelmalier Road, in Dublin on Sunday evening last.

Dressed in a hooded grey and black Adidas tracksuit, the north east inner city Dublin boy, who cannot be named because he is a juvenile, was brought by gardaí into the tiny courtroom at 3.52pm.

In a hearing lasting just under five minutes, the boy, who was accompanied to the case, by his middle-aged parents, remained silent as Judge Bryan Smyth heard details of his arrest.

Detective Sergeant Martin Connolly told Judge Smyth that he arrested the teen at 2.25pm today at Store Street Garda station for the “offence of murder contrary to common law”.

The slender teenager, who is about 5' 5" tall with mousey brown hair, was charged at 2.35pm in the presence of his parents after which he made “no reply”. Both the teenage defendant and his parents were given a true copy of the charge. Det. Sgt Connolly applied to make a minor amendment to the charge sheet in relation to the boy’s date of birth.

Defence solicitor Ms Margaret McEvilly consented to the request. The date of birth was then corrected, with the court hearing the boy was aged 16 years.

The teenager remained silent and impassive during the brief hearing during which he looked around at his parents sitting on a bench at the back of the courtroom and then to the garda giving evidence.

Det. Sgt Connolly told Judge Smyth he was applying for a remand in custody for one week.

Judge Smyth, noting the defendant’s age, said the place of remand would St Patrick’s Institution.

As he was preparing his order, Ms McEvilly asked him to recommend medical attention for the boy. She said he was on “specific medication and perhaps he can see medics on arriving at St Patrick’s Institution.”

Judge Smyth agreed to recommend medical assistance and remanded the teen in custody to appear again at the Children’s Court on December 17 next.

He granted legal aid to the boy to which there was no Garda objection.

SpookyDoll · 10-12-2008 06:12PM

smack head so

asdasd · 10-12-2008 06:14PM

Dressed in a hooded grey and black Adidas tracksuit

Sweet. He dressed up for court.

His fancy Adidas attire wont fool the judge, I hope.

Ouijaboard · 10-12-2008 06:20PM

Zulu wrote: »

I'm not nit picking, I'm only pointing out facts; highlighting reality.
Ok, but do you not want to invest your money in an actual solution? I know I do.

Thats simply not true though is it?

So why encourage a system that will create more crime?

Have you any idea of the costs behind what you are suggesting? It costs money to keep people in prison you know?

Why not, currently we have a situ whereby the perp is in for a month out for 2, in for a month out for 2 and on and on, say this is for all 'minor' charges like property destruction, theft etc.

Say over 10 years period instead we now have a situation wherby the prick is in for a month out for 2, in for a year, out for 2 months, in for 2 years out for 2 months, in 4 years out for 2 months.

Which scenario gives him longer periods out in society to load up multiple offences?

You cant solve the problem of somebody who wants to reoffend, you just keep him away from functioning society for longer periods thus taking away
his ability to bother people as much.

I would gladly pay an extra 5 cents out of every euro to load up dozens of prisons with the bastards, cut costs by taking away all their creature comforts that the have now.

I lived in Germany for a couple of years, I echo all he has said about the way they handle the 'problem' over there. Its a breath of fresh air, women walk their dogs in berlin streets at midnight, this culture of underclass animals that
we have here is unheard of.
I remember a case where a car was stolen by a bunch of yoofs and driven at high speed down Oranienburger Strasse, they were chased at high speed by the police and the car shot out and the occupants shot dead. These measures were taken because joyriding is seen as being armed and dangerous over there, here what happens?, you report it to the law and it blah what do you expect us to do about it, we'll contact you went we find it burned out.

Edited to add that a car was stolen 'once' on Oranienburger Strasse, needless to say that a car was never robbed in the vicinity after that, cant speak for other areas but needless to say that getting a bullet in the head from armed police carrying machine guns is quite a detterent...

arybvtcw0eolkf · 10-12-2008 06:26PM

JaneyMc wrote: »

There is one main story floating around that sounds plausible, i know you can't always go on hear say but a lot of the information has been available locally that they are not reporting in the media. I don't know if I should go into it though.

.

Don't go into it. Like you, I'm very familiar with a lot of information not being reported in the media and have choosen to err on the side of caution in the face of complete ignorance.

You should go back throught the thread and have a look at the youtube.com clip of the torment which Tony from Church Road is being put through, I've the Bebo page of its originator too if you'd like to view it, and possibly leave a message.

For the thread, and people from Eastwall will understand where I'm coming form with this..

The old Eastwall community should look inwards and question the 'them and us' attitude's pervailing. I lived in Eastwall for seven years, my in-laws are Eastwall & Sheriff St born and breed. And unless your born into that community you'll always be considered a 'blow in'. Its actually a running joke in the area, ie 'ah sure that fella is only a blow in'. And I'll tell you this, if your only a 'blow in' in Eastwall you'd best be prepared to look out for yourself!.

Don't get me wrong, its a wonderful old Dublin community and very tight knit. But this 'them and us' attitude is something which I found hard to deal with, despite being married into the area I was always going to be 'a blow in'.

Antamojo · 10-12-2008 06:39PM

manatee wrote: »

more light relief and back to the thread.the boys from the chinese in east wall mentioned earlier.

**links edited out, up to AH mods whether to put them back - sceptre**

Why are you putting random bebo pages up on boards.ie.
I know these two and firstly they had absolutely nothing to do with the murder.
The first bebo page you put up there is a fake page set up by some idiot and the second is one of my good friends. I am sick of people blaming and out casting other youths from this area. I have experienced it, in school from my teachers. It's a joke.

The people who were involved in the crime have nothing to do with these people or myself. They're just a bunch of knacker thugs from the area.

^^^ To the guy above, I know the youtube and bebo page you're talking about. The chap you're talking about is not even in the video. It's some other fella from the area.

asdasd · 10-12-2008 06:46PM

The people who were involved in the crime have nothing to do with these people or myself. They're just a bunch of knacker thugs from the area.

Is there any way you can organise? are the police useful in the area?

Antamojo · 10-12-2008 06:55PM

asdasd wrote: »

Is there any way you can organise? are the police useful in the area?

Organise what? There's very little anyone can do.
The parents don't give a ****e about anything their kids do. They've been doing it for years and look what it has led to. I know all about it, I've been living here for years, I've witnessed it for years and the violence and level of thuggery has only gotten worse.
The control the police have seems to be non existent, if your in East Wall just look at what has happened to the windows of the local Chinese.

marcsignal · 10-12-2008 07:26PM

Antamojo wrote: »

Organise what? There's very little anyone can do.
The parents don't give a ****e about anything their kids do. They've been doing it for years and look what it has led to. I know all about it, I've been living here for years, I've witnessed it for years and the violence and level of thuggery has only gotten worse.
The control the police have seems to be non existent, if your in East Wall just look at what has happened to the windows of the local Chinese.

Yeah, I'd agree with you there's very little local people can do, and let's face it, who'd want to put themselves in the firing line?

I still think Mairt's idea earlier about bringing in the Army, in the short term, is a feasible option. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure the decent people living in East Wall would not resent a high vis military presence until things have calmed down.

Antamojo · 10-12-2008 07:50PM

The opininon that the army should be brought in is a bit strong.
What kind of reputation will we gain from that?
I can't wait to hand in my CV with my address on it.

arybvtcw0eolkf · 10-12-2008 08:03PM

Antamojo wrote: »

The opininon that the army should be brought in is a bit strong.
.

Why is it a bit strong?.

Seriously, for over 30yrs Army/Garda checkpoints and other security measures ensured loyalist terriorists didn't bomb the shit out of the south.

And in 2000 when Foot & Mouth disease hit the country there were armed Army/Garda checkpoints throughout the entire country.

These little cunts running amock on our streets now, and I'm including ALL underworld/underclass figures in this, are a bigger threat to our quality of life than anything in the last fifty years.

Of course the looney liberal left will pull their hair out at the thoughts, but THEY'RE the reason these little fvckwits won't face proper justice in this country.

marcsignal · 10-12-2008 08:26PM

Mairt wrote: »

These little cunts running amock on our streets now, and I'm including ALL underworld/underclass figures in this, are a bigger threat to our quality of life than anything in the last fifty years

yeah i totally agree. The absolute worst thing the Government can do in this situation, in terms of protecting it's citizens, is appear indecisive and/or weak. If they do, the scum will go through us like fat through a goose.

mike65 · 10-12-2008 08:38PM

The worst thing the government could do is turn the Army on its people (even if they fully deserve it), that what dictators do in third world ****eholes. When tanks are on the streets then you have lost and have admitted it.

Highsider · 10-12-2008 08:38PM

Bring in the Army :rolleyes:. FFS that's a bit over the top.

passive · 10-12-2008 09:00PM

mike65 wrote: »

The worst thing the government could do is turn the Army on its people (even if they fully deserve it), that what dictators do in third world ****eholes. When tanks are on the streets then you have lost and have admitted it.

Em... we have lost, and we are admitting it? We'd like to fight back, make a win for society?

arybvtcw0eolkf · 10-12-2008 09:06PM

mike65 wrote: »

The worst thing the government could do is turn the Army on its people (even if they fully deserve it), that what dictators do in third world ****eholes. When tanks are on the streets then you have lost and have admitted it.

"TANKS", we're talking about the Irish army ffs :P

So you felt the same way during the Foot & Mouth Disease scare in 2000 did you?.

You know back then you could have been shot for driving a cow through a checkpoint in Kerry, but scumbags now feel safe in bringing guns through the streets of Dublin & Limerick at will!.

Kline · 10-12-2008 10:34PM

I knew Aidan and was only talking to him last month about the gang. I warned him about them as I had a similar experience to what he had. Got harrased and taunted with this gang for about 6 months. I decided to ignore them on the advice of the guards, they eventually got bored and moved on. I tried to tell Aidan but he was too caught up in it at that stage. I chased these kids once myself and consider myself lucky to be alive after what happened Aidan.

I personally think the army should be brought into certain areas if the criteria fits. If you have a gang developing and growing, doing things such as throwing scaffolding planks through peoples windows, throw bottles at people, smashing up shops and businesses, intimidating people - all of whom feel helpless - then I believe that the army should be deployed. Groups of three or more teenagers should be disbanded and a curfew should be imposed on specific peoples if they are known for trouble.

Considering the uses of the army such as guarding the banks money when its transported from A to B etc. Are peoples lives not more important and is their sense of feeling secure not more important than the government loosing some face because this might admit that they cannot control gang warfare.

People laugh and joke about the suggestion of bringing the army in. You would not laugh and joke if you were the focus of fifteen to thirty gang members - Its no fun and as we have seen with Aidan - No fun at all.

Aidan was a nice guy, decent and did not deserve this.

Orange69 · 10-12-2008 11:00PM

Kline wrote: »

I decided to ignore them on the advice of the guards, they eventually got bored and moved on.

Its unbelievable that this is the response of the guards.

Highsider · 11-12-2008 12:04AM

Kline wrote: »

I knew Aidan and was only talking to him last month about the gang. I warned him about them as I had a similar experience to what he had. Got harrased and taunted with this gang for about 6 months. I decided to ignore them on the advice of the guards, they eventually got bored and moved on. I tried to tell Aidan but he was too caught up in it at that stage. I chased these kids once myself and consider myself lucky to be alive after what happened Aidan.

I personally think the army should be brought into certain areas if the criteria fits. If you have a gang developing and growing, doing things such as throwing scaffolding planks through peoples windows, throw bottles at people, smashing up shops and businesses, intimidating people - all of whom feel helpless - then I believe that the army should be deployed. Groups of three or more teenagers should be disbanded and a curfew should be imposed on specific peoples if they are known for trouble.

Considering the uses of the army such as guarding the banks money when its transported from A to B etc. Are peoples lives not more important and is their sense of feeling secure not more important than the government loosing some face because this might admit that they cannot control gang warfare.

People laugh and joke about the suggestion of bringing the army in. You would not laugh and joke if you were the focus of fifteen to thirty gang members - Its no fun and as we have seen with Aidan - No fun at all.

Aidan was a nice guy, decent and did not deserve this.

Pal sorry for your troubles. My own feelings on it are that the army should not be the answer. It's a public order issue and that's up to the Garda to sort out. I feel so sorry for people who are being harrased by these thugs and i cant imagine how that must feel. In my own area (council estate) there is a fantastic sense of community unlike many areas in Dublin and around the country and all the neighbours look out for one another. It wouldnt be unusual for trouble makers to get a hiding at the first sign of any hassle for any of the community and i could give examples of this but won't for obvious reasons. IMO that's one of the biggest reasons why these scumbags get away with what they do (the lack of community). People tend to be to afraid to stand up as a group at the first sign of any hassle and i guess the thugs get brave and realise they can make a particular persons/families life hell. Sad state of affairs and it's about time the powers that be (Garda,justice department,judges etc..) got on top of this situation for the good of us all.

Highsider · 11-12-2008 12:06AM

Orange69 wrote: »

Its unbelievable that this is the response of the guards.

+1. If these trouble makers had caused this hassle outside a bank do you think the advice of the Guards would be to ignore it and they'll move on. Me thinks not :mad:

Dyr · 11-12-2008 12:08AM

ah but there's different laws in different parts of Dublin...

asdasd · 11-12-2008 12:11AM

If these trouble makers had caused this hassle outside a bank

Or in Dalkey.

Highsider · 11-12-2008 12:18AM

Bambi wrote: »

ah but there's different laws in different parts of Dublin...

Yeah very true. IMO it's only a matter of time before people in peril start arming themselves like in the states over the last 30 odd years. Sure it will be harder here with access to gun's not as widespread but it there's a market for them they will find there way into people's homes i'm afraid.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i · 11-12-2008 12:24AM

I thought my area was pretty save, yet just outside our apartments someone was mugged with a syringe... bloody scum. Only 2 armed army personal about 500 yards up the road. Ha...

Why is bringing in the army too severe? You people watch too much TV, not talking about national martial law here (right mairt?) I think it would sh!t some of them little scumbags up rightly. It would definately make it harder for the criminals to operate. By all means, let them kill eachother, but when innocent people get the bullet, that is a differant story.

What would the cons be of it? Apart from the "OMG Taxpayers money whine whine whine" argument.

HAGI · 11-12-2008 12:27AM

manatee wrote: »

more light relief and back to the thread.the boys from the chinese in east wall mentioned earlier.

**links edited out, up to AH mods whether to put them back - sceptre**

Right first of all cheers to Antamojo for bringing this to my attention
I am the owner of the bebo in link 2
i hope you understand i am furious and surprised
why would you randomly put forward my name ?
you dont even know me
and i have nothing to do with that chinese so i dont know what you are saying , i just dont want to be blamed on crap that is not truthful in the slightest .
i am actually shocked at the thought that you are basically calling me a scumbag and basically saying i have nothing better to do with my life but hang around chinese shops.

i have a feeling the that account was set up by sum1 taking the pi*s and wants to pin blame on other people.

i shouldnt even be defending myself and nor should my friend kev which that is not even his bebo, thats a fake one .

Man murdered by youth(s) after home attacked(yes it happened in Ireland)

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