Buying clubs in the North

anonymous08 · 10-12-2008 12:58AM #1

Has anyone any recent experience of buying golf clubs in the North & are there much savings to be made with sterling being weaker?

kingshankly · 10-12-2008 08:53AM

anonymous08 wrote: »

Has anyone any recent experience of buying golf clubs in the North & are there much savings to be made with sterling being weaker?

try a few golf websites from the uk I would reccomend onlinegolf they provide a good service with great postage prices

Swinging Looney · 10-12-2008 11:15AM

The savings you can make are just ridiculous. I recently bought two Wilson Staff woods (FY & 3W) from onlinegolf and it cost me 160 euro including shipping. One club here was selling for about 130 euro at the time. Arrived on my doorstep 4 days later. Their stock changes pretty rapidly so if you can't find what you're looking for then leave it a week and look again.

Generally speaking we get terrible value here in Ireland.I'm looking for a couple of Vokeys at the moment. They sell for around 130-140 euro each here. I can get them up North or aver the sea for 68 Sterling. Works out at 80 euro at the current exchange rate.

Recently read an article about McGuirks in which they stated "We are the cheapest golf shop in Europe". Unfortunately that is very, very far from true....

Mister Sifter · 10-12-2008 11:38AM

Swinging Looney wrote: »

The savings you can make are just ridiculous. I recently bought two Wilson Staff woods (FY & 3W) from onlinegolf and it cost me 160 euro including shipping. One club here was selling for about 130 euro at the time. Arrived on my doorstep 4 days later. Their stock changes pretty rapidly so if you can't find what you're looking for then leave it a week and look again.

Generally speaking we get terrible value here in Ireland.I'm looking for a couple of Vokeys at the moment. They sell for around 130-140 euro each here. I can get them up North or aver the sea for 68 Sterling. Works out at 80 euro at the current exchange rate.

Recently read an article about McGuirks in which they stated "We are the cheapest golf shop in Europe". Unfortunately that is very, very far from true....

Check out Direct Golf also Looney, they often do a 2 vokeys for 130 pounds deal. Your absolutely right, the mark up shops here have is obviously huge.

McGuirks may be cheap compared to other Irish shops, but the savings to be had online are massive.

ImDave · 10-12-2008 11:52AM

Graeme1982 wrote: »

Your absolutely right, the mark up shops here have is obviously huge.

I sincerely wish that was the case.

Mister Sifter · 10-12-2008 12:16PM

ImDave wrote: »

I sincerely wish that was the case.

So Direct Golf can afford to charge just 65 pounds for a Vokey wedge, but a shop here needs to charge 130 euro? Even with bulk buying discounts i find that very hard to stomach.

In fact, scrap that about using an online UK site as an example. My local pro shop back home in Scotland charges 69 pounds for a Vokey. And he'd hardly be buying bucket loads of the things.

fullstop · 10-12-2008 12:20PM

Graeme1982 wrote: »

So Direct Golf can afford to charge just 65 pounds for a Vokey wedge, but a shop here needs to charge 130 euro? Even with bulk buying discounts i find that very hard to stomach.

In fact, scrap that about using an online UK site as an example. My local pro shop back home in Scotland charges 69 pounds for a Vokey. And he'd hardly be buying bucket loads of the things.

Hard as it may be to stomach, it's true.

Swinging Looney · 10-12-2008 12:24PM

ImDave wrote: »

I sincerely wish that was the case.

I'm a cynic at heart and always have been, but I really would like to believe that what you are hinting at was true.

Yet:

Let's just say golf shops have a 10% margin on their stock. The percentage is pretty irrelevant but it'll make my point for me.

UK crowd sell a Vokey wedge for the equivalent of 80 euro . Less the 10% means they are getting the club for about 72 euro.

Irish crowd selling it for 139 euro (McGuirks price). Less the 10% makes 126 euro. I really just cannot believe that it could cost an Irish store 54 euro more to get their hands on the same stock. So the only possible explanation is that the Irish Stores are running a massively greater margin than UK stores.

Fair enough, I haven't allowed for the VAT difference which will add another 8 or 9 euro maybe, and I accept that overheads may be greater in Ireland than elsewhere, but they would need to be in the region of 65% greater to explain the difference. That I just can't believe.

There is a general attitude within retailers in this country that drives them to increase profits (or minimise losses as the case may be) simply by increasing prices rather than by trying increasing the number of units sold. So few seem to realise that 10 clubs sold at 120 euro is better than 3 sold at 200 euro.

C.O.Y.B.I.B · 10-12-2008 01:28PM

I'm looking for a CallawayX 3 Wood. It's 159e in McGuirks and 99stg in JJB Lisburn . I have 125e vouchers for McGuirks but it's killing me to buy it from them.....It'll cost me 34e out of my pocket to buy it here , but if my vouchers were for JJB they'd be giving me change !!!
Sorry rant over .

Online golf are very good and reasonable shipping charge , also nevadabobs in belfast and jjb in Lisburn are both good value compared to here if you want Bricks and Mortar

ImDave · 10-12-2008 03:05PM

Swinging Looney wrote: »

I'm a cynic at heart and always have been, but I really would like to believe that what you are hinting at was true.

Yet:

Let's just say golf shops have a 10% margin on their stock. The percentage is pretty irrelevant but it'll make my point for me.

UK crowd sell a Vokey wedge for the equivalent of 80 euro . Less the 10% means they are getting the club for about 72 euro.

Irish crowd selling it for 139 euro (McGuirks price). Less the 10% makes 126 euro. I really just cannot believe that it could cost an Irish store 54 euro more to get their hands on the same stock. So the only possible explanation is that the Irish Stores are running a massively greater margin than UK stores.

Fair enough, I haven't allowed for the VAT difference which will add another 8 or 9 euro maybe, and I accept that overheads may be greater in Ireland than elsewhere, but they would need to be in the region of 65% greater to explain the difference. That I just can't believe.

There is a general attitude within retailers in this country that drives them to increase profits (or minimise losses as the case may be) simply by increasing prices rather than by trying increasing the number of units sold. So few seem to realise that 10 clubs sold at 120 euro is better than 3 sold at 200 euro.

I wish I could explain why a shop in the North could sell a current model (we will assume it is a Vokey Spin Milled Wedge, standard spec.) for well under the cost price. I'm not sure if cost price varies significantly between Ireland and the UK, but I know for a fact that Ping, TaylorMade and Mizuno all charge identical prices in the UK and NI as they do in Ireland. I can say that there is honestly nowhere near €54 to be made on a wedge such as that.

If the cost price is the same up North as it is here, they are selling as a loss, and that is a fact. If it was another manufacturer e.g. Cobra (despite they are both part of the Acushnet group of companies) I might believe it, as many companies offer good discount and rebate during the year as well as line discounts. Titleist offer no discount of any type on their hardware, just accessories. Another example is the Ping G10 driver. If people were to hear how much mark-up was available on a G10 at the going retail price of €279 or so, they would never believe it.

I wish I could offer a proper explanation as to the retail differences between the UK and Ireland, but I really don't know how they were doing it. If our store was to match all UK prices, we would be out of business within a matter of months, as we would be in a complete negative cash flow situation.

copacetic · 10-12-2008 03:21PM

ImDave wrote: »

I, but I know for a fact that Ping, TaylorMade and Mizuno all charge identical prices in the UK and NI as they do in Ireland. I can say that there is honestly nowhere near €54 to be made on a wedge such as that.

I don't believe this is true at all, if it was they would be adjusting their prices constantly for exchange rates, which they don't.

eg TaylorMade r7 CGB MAX Driver
299rrp in uK according to americangolf (65 off at the moment so 234)

379rrp in Mcguirks

299GBP is currently €340 so rrps are currently €40 different.

Same club on onlinegolf.co.uk for 195GBP = €222

Basically at current exchange rates rrps are MUCH more here than UK and also
the UK shops discount a lot more also. Hard for shops here to compete.

In the past on newer stuff I've found McGuirks to be as cheap as online, have got
my last 2 drivers and irons there. However the exchange rate has changed that
now..

Mister Sifter · 10-12-2008 03:24PM

ImDave wrote: »

I wish I could offer a proper explanation as to the retail differences between the UK and Ireland, but I really don't know how they were doing it. If our store was to match all UK prices, we would be out of business within a matter of months, as we would be in a complete negative cash flow situation.

That's very interesting. I know it has been mentioned on here before that shops make their profits from clothing and accessories, and not really from clubs. I've seen McGuirks' accounts and i know they make a tidy profit so they're obviously making it from somewhere.

It's a baffling situation - even more so when someone within the industry can't explain it. Is it a case then that Irish golf retailers are being ripped off when it comes to buying stock?

It's crazy that a multi-million euro golf chain in Ireland has to charge 139 euro for a club which a very small pro shop in the arse end of Scotland only charges 80 euro.

Something, somewhere has to be wrong!

Goodluck2me · 10-12-2008 03:54PM

fullstop wrote: »

Hard as it may be to stomach, it's true.

Got my vokey in LK, in boyces, seller knocked €25 off pricetag with little-no haggle, obviously huge mark up.

Swinging Looney · 10-12-2008 04:33PM

I wish I could explain why a shop in the North could sell a current model (we will assume it is a Vokey Spin Milled Wedge, standard spec.) for well under the cost price.

Firstly, if McGuirks and others are genuinely making a small amount over and above the cost price of a club - and up North and across the UK, various different retailers are selling at a loss, then why in Gods name wouldn't McGuirks or any other Irish retailer also be buying cheap clubs in the UK and selling them to us at a slightly inflated price instead of the ridiculously high prices you'll see in any store here?

Secondly, I can not believe (doesn't mean it's not true of course) that such a large number of stores are selling vast amounts of the same clubs at a significant loss. The discussion above would suggest that onlinegolf and others are losing perhaps 30 or 40 euro on the sale of a Vokey wedge. I say absolutely not. How could any store sustain that kind of loss? As for the little pro shop in Scotland - not a chance.

Thirdly, if they really are selling at a loss and managing to survive just fine regardless - I assume by attracting ancilliary sales after customers were lured in by the cheap club - then why would Irish stores not cop on and realise that they could be doing the same thing?? Why don't Mcguirks sell Vokeys at even just 99 euro and hope to talk the customer into buying a Driver, Trolley, Pro-V1's, a wooly hat and some tees while they're there? It goes back to what I said earlier; Irish stores have tunnel vision when it comes to sales. And I have no sympathy for them as a result.

My own opinion is that Irish Retailers in general have simply become greedy over the past decade or two and have a mental block against selling anything at discounted or heaven forbid below cost price. They have become used to large margins and don't want to let them go. Years and years (and years!) ago, my father worked in a clothing store in the US. The margin they used at the time was one single percent. They used clever selling tactics and promotions to make their money over a period of time. Today retailers want it all in one sale. Look at groceries which stores are/were not able to sell below cost by law. Then you see them with a 75% off meat or whatever sale. So even with 75% off it still can not be below cost. It's sickening I tells ya! :mad:

Swinging Looney · 10-12-2008 04:41PM

Oh, also jut want to dispel the myth that it is simply the exchange rate that causes the difference.

While the current exchange rate has never been better from our point of view, even allowing for the rate as it was say 3 years ago; about .67 £/Euro; there is still about a 40 euro difference in the price of Vokeys and other similar clubs...

fullstop · 10-12-2008 05:12PM

goodluck2me wrote: »

Got my vokey in LK, in boyces, seller knocked €25 off pricetag with little-no haggle, obviously huge mark up.

Retail price of the vokey's is around €95 if i remember correctly so there is not a big mark up as they usually sell for around €120-130

And you should be buying it somewhere else!

Mister Sifter · 10-12-2008 05:33PM

fullstop wrote: »

Retail price of the vokey's is around €95 if i remember correctly so there is not a big mark up as they usually sell for around €120-130

So you're telling us that a golf shop in Ireland is charged 95 euro (or thereabouts) for every vokey wedge it buys from Titleist? McGuirks today is selling same wedge for 139 euro. Thats a 46% premium!

At your RRP, a UK shop would be buying it at say 80 pounds (i'm being generous with the exchange rate here, bearing in mind what's happened in recent weeks/months). So, the shop that i quote above is selling the wedge at a 13% reduction to the RRP!

It doesn't stack up!

fullstop · 10-12-2008 06:09PM

Graeme1982 wrote: »

So you're telling us that a golf shop in Ireland is charged 95 euro (or thereabouts) for every vokey wedge it buys from Titleist? McGuirks today is selling same wedge for 139 euro. Thats a 46% premium!

At your RRP, a UK shop would be buying it at say 80 pounds (i'm being generous with the exchange rate here, bearing in mind what's happened in recent weeks/months). So, the shop that i quote above is selling the wedge at a 13% reduction to the RRP!

It doesn't stack up!

It's between €95-100 anyway i'm pretty sure. Retail most places is 130. That is a 30% mark up. How the hell do you expect golf shops to survive otherwise? A member of my family owns a golf shop and McGuirks have regularly sold Pro V1's for less than the wholesale price from Titleist. the smaller shops just can't compete with that

slumped · 10-12-2008 06:11PM

Can I offer some insight?

Retailers will expect to mark up clubs by around 15-20%, the real money for golf retailers is in clothing which is generally 30-40% mark up while golf balls are poor returns, around 5-10%

A Vokey Wedge has a RRP in Ireland of €139.

The cost price (including VAT) to retailers is around €95.

The mark up is not as big as we think.

A new driver, take any of the leading models - will retail at €400.

The cost price on this is around €320 - which when marked up is around 20%

The MAJOR problems are:

1. Sterling has weakened considerably, from 0.69 pence to 0.88 pence
2. At the same time, there has been a 3% VAT swing in favour of STG.
3. Interest rates in UK are lower than here, and will remain so as the UK economy sinks further into recession (part of Euro zone is not in recession....yet!)
4. Manufacturers are not passing on the changes in STG to Euro Customers

Shop around - if you find a bargain then go for it. McGuirks, I believe, don't get the HUGE discounts some people think they get - they make their big money on clothing.

S

neckedit · 10-12-2008 06:28PM

as I have said in previous posts/threads i've worked in the golf retail business all my working life, and I take it that some of the posters here also work in the trade,and i never understand the problem people have with any shop making a profit! it is a very tight business, margin wise, to try to make a living and with the recent surge in internet selling it getting tougher. I'm a consumer and i shop alot, but never in my wildest dreams would i haggle over the price.lets say I see a pair off jeans i like, I try them on and they look good, the price tag says €100, thats what i pay, if i can't afford them i simply put them back on the hanger and come back on pay day and pick them up, I don't go hame and moan about the retailer making 50% margin on the jeans, and I wouldn't embarras myself asking for discount, The high street store all you guys buy your every day clothes make margins that would make a golf retailer dizzy at the thoughts! The store I work at sells the vokey wedge for €100 and we make a profit on that (thats the whole idea of running a business), my store has staff, insurance, rent, electricity, rates, shipping costs, the last 4 overly inflated in this country in comparison to our UK and on-line counterparts. If we were to sell at the prices people think they should pay we'd be out of business in the morning.:cool:

fullstop · 10-12-2008 06:48PM

slumped wrote: »

Can I offer some insight?

Retailers will expect to mark up clubs by around 15-20%, the real money for golf retailers is in clothing which is generally 30-40% mark up while golf balls are poor returns, around 5-10%

A Vokey Wedge has a RRP in Ireland of €139.

The cost price (including VAT) to retailers is around €95.

The mark up is not as big as we think.

A new driver, take any of the leading models - will retail at €400.

The cost price on this is around €320 - which when marked up is around 20%

The MAJOR problems are:

1. Sterling has weakened considerably, from 0.69 pence to 0.88 pence
2. At the same time, there has been a 3% VAT swing in favour of STG.
3. Interest rates in UK are lower than here, and will remain so as the UK economy sinks further into recession (part of Euro zone is not in recession....yet!)
4. Manufacturers are not passing on the changes in STG to Euro Customers

Shop around - if you find a bargain then go for it. McGuirks, I believe, don't get the HUGE discounts some people think they get - they make their big money on clothing.

S

You can indeed

You've pretty much backed up what i said re the vokey wedges which i used as an example and you are 100% correct on all other points.

Good post

Swinging Looney · 10-12-2008 07:06PM

The mark-up that a retailer adds to any item of stock must allow for operating costs and overheads. After these costs have been covered, the remainder becomes his profit margin. I wish retailers here would look at their margins on certain items and think like a consumer for once.

neckedit wrote: »

The store I work at sells the vokey wedge for €100 and we make a profit on that (thats the whole idea of running a business)

You see this is kind of what I'm talking about I suppose. First of all I accept that I am simply taking your quote out of context and I don't intend this to be a challenge to you directly. But:

Running a business is about making a profit overall, not on every single item you sell in the shop. Why is the concept of loss leaders apparently lost on Irish stores? Sell popular things at cost or close to it or even below cost so that you get people in your store which is carefully designed to entice them to buy something else. It is entirely unnecessary to make a profit on every single thing. Understanding consumer psychology is the most important thing in business. Look at Ryanair for God's sake! They make little or nothing on actual fares. It is all ancillary revenue that makes them ridiculous money every year.

If we were to sell at the prices people think they should pay we'd be out of business in the morning.:cool:

Again I feel this is typical of most Irish businesses. Just the thought of selling something below cost is enough to make them queasy.

neckedit · 10-12-2008 07:20PM

Loss leaders in the golf trade these days are a certain golf ball! in the past it used to be a brand of driver, but why would you invest €250 plus and use it as a loss leader! the main point everybody here is missing, is Service, when you walk into my store you will get fully trained professional staff who know the golf industry inside out and will endevour to get the right equipment in your hands not just the best margin product! that, you don't get online and you deffinitly don't get it from our compitition.

PhilipMarlowe · 10-12-2008 07:59PM

There is no way on earth that the state should make more of a 'margin' on a product being sold in a store than the business that goes to the effort of selling that product.
The business pays the rates, the prsi, the taxes, takes all the risk, etc etc etc.
Expecting a retailer to accept a 5% margin across the board or something is so unrealistic... what do you think a 'johnny average' golf shop's turnover is and of this turnover what percentage of it would you be happy living off?

Swinging Looney · 10-12-2008 08:05PM

Every single Golf Shop I've walked into have stacks and stacks of golf balls at the tills. I can't believe that shops would put loss making products at the tills where most impulsive purchases are made. If you are correct (which I assume you are given that you say you work in the industry) then where do you put most of your golf balls on display?

Given the number of stores in Ireland, using Golf Balls as loss leaders seems crazy. I won't drive miles out of my way to save a few euro on balls. I'll just go to my local shop and buy them there for a couple of quid. You can't entice me to your store by offering me a tiny saving.

Now if I could save 20 euro by travelling to your store down the road instead of my local one around the corner, then keep me there with wonderful service and a feeling that my 50 euro purchase is more important to you than the previous guys 1,000 euro sale then you are getting somewhere. I'll probably go back to you next time too.

Having good service is all well and good but it means absolutely nothing if you can't get me into your shop in the first place.

Ah look, we're (meaning me and my ego ) getting way off topic here. I suppose that Irish business drives me mad, not just Golf shops. The online stores work so well because I think "Sure as long as I'm buying this club and paying for shipping, I might as well see what else they have while I'm here." Next thing you know I've bought a brolly, a putter and a new battery for my trolley and spent twice what I planned to. Why oh why is it so difficult for actual stores built from bricks to think the same way?

Expecting a retailer to accept a 5% margin across the board or something is so unrealistic...

Across the board is not what I'm saying. I mean merely on certain popular items to get people in store. Also, just because your margins are low does not mean your profits are low. 1% of a lot of money is still better than 75% of almost nothing. You have summed up my argument: There are two ways of increasing profits. 1- up your prices 2- sell more stuff. Most shops only ever think of 1.

neckedit · 10-12-2008 08:20PM

I edited my post and said a certain ball not all balls! We sell from 7euro to 22euro per dozen cheaper(before people jump on this, yes Pro v's are sold for 65euro in some pro shops in the greater dublin area). in my shop you come for the service and you'll be amazed at the price! too many shops sell themselves only on price! We offer you both!

Swinging Looney · 10-12-2008 08:39PM

neckedit,

Just for what it's worth, I admire a store that puts an emphasis on service.

It is becoming ever more rare to find a place that actually wants to be friendly and helpful rather than just say they are.

Royal Seahawk · 10-12-2008 09:01PM

The Slazanger K1 speed driver is £50 in JJB in Lisburn. How much would that cost down here?

anonymous08 · 10-12-2008 09:25PM

Thanks for your replies on this guys.

ImDave · 10-12-2008 09:39PM

Swinging Looney wrote: »

Again I feel this is typical of most Irish businesses. Just the thought of selling something below cost is enough to make them queasy.

I would actually agree with you there in the general context.

However, I feel it necessary to highlight the fact that the likes of Vokey wedges at about 45% is an painting an inaccurate picture of the real situation. The markup on Titleist equipment is pretty good for the industry, particurally if you stick close enough to the retail price. If you take the Ping G10, at current market price, you would be making 16%, not nearly as high as people would imagine, and that is before you take the few quid that 4/5 customers insisting on haggling over. Margins are very tight, but margins are tight in almost all industries, particularly in current economic conditions, considering that golf is a luxury, it will suffer along with many others.

Swinging Looney · 10-12-2008 09:52PM

ImDave wrote: »

I would actually agree with you there in the general context.

However, I feel it necessary to highlight the fact that the likes of Vokey wedges at about 45% is an painting an inaccurate picture of the real situation. The markup on Titleist equipment is pretty good for the industry, particurally if you stick close enough to the retail price. If you take the Ping G10, at current market price, you would be making 16%, not nearly as high as people would imagine, and that is before you take the few quid that 4/5 customers insisting on haggling over. Margins are very tight, but margins are tight in almost all industries, particularly in current economic conditions, considering that golf is a luxury, it will suffer along with many others.

Fair enough. I suppose I am picking Vokeys simply because I have been looking at them in a lot of places recently.

I agree that golf may be in for a rough time in the near future. I am also afraid that it will die off rapidly if retailers choose to push up the prices across the board in an attempt to offset the reducing sales. Although the cost of playing golf will likely be the main factor rather than the cost of equipment. As long as clubs keep bringing green fees and memberships down then golf shops will have a chance if they manage themselves properly. But they may well have to take on the online and UK stores if they are to survive.

Buying clubs in the North

Comments