Campaign to say NO to govt compensation over pork problem

ven0m · 09-12-2008 01:22PM #1

Pork slaughter houses & production factories have laid off approx. 2,000 staff now across Ireland temporarily, & refuse to resume production until the Irish Government agrees to a compensation package for them. Farmers Associations have made the same claims for 100,00 pigs they say they have to destroy that they cannot sell. This comes at a time when the exchequer is in trouble, & yet again we have another group of people claiming compensation & payment from the tax payer for problems the tax payer did not cause.

Now before you dismiss this , think about this. The NCA (National Consumers Association) says all pork products bought since September 1st (3 months ago - THREE MONTHS of contamination & it only comes to light in December publicly!!!!) are entitled to be returned by consumers to stores along with a receipt/proof of purchase for a refund under the claim 'not fit for purpose/damaged goods'.

All the retails agree on this also. Now, here's where it gets interesting. Why the **** are farmers & pork slaughter houses asking the tax payer to foot the bill, when the chain of events should be:

* retails claiming refunds from meat suppliers
* meat suppliers then claiming refunds from farmers
* farmers claiming refunds & compensation from feed suppliers

I mean, surely that makes far more sense than adding further burden to the public coffers, & needless compensation where it is not due from the public tax payer.

I advise everyone & anyone out there who takes part on radio shows, or otherwise to ensure this point is raised; the producers & farmers need to be made go back to claim THEIR REFUNDS FROM THEIR RESPECTIVE suppliers & not place this burden onto an already en-burdened taxpayer, & tax system that is already under incredible pressure due to overly greedy banks who were badly managed & regulated, as well as a government who mis-managed public funds & who themselves should be facing a PAC over the eVoting machines, & why we neer sought refunds & costs from the suppliers for EQUIPMENT THAT DID NOT WORK.

Everyone please ensure you add your 2 cents to the media & radio where & when you can on this - do NOT have your already tight tax money wasted or given to people who should be following the advice they issue in conjunction with the NCA!

Danbo! · 09-12-2008 01:26PM

ven0m wrote: »

yet again we have another group of people claiming compensation & payment from the tax payer for problems the tax payer did not cause.

This is as far as I got. If every tax payer only paid for problems they caused, the country would be in a much bigger mess than it is today.

Darragh29 · 09-12-2008 01:27PM

I can kind of see the point here. On the face of it, it looks like another vested interest paying the stronger hand at the moment, betting on the government having to give in if 1,000 people are laid off with every day that this continues.

I'd gladly do without Christmas ham however if in 6 days time, the government have still not sorted it all out, and 6,000 people are out of work and the government falls on the issue. That would make my Christmas...

Highsider · 09-12-2008 01:29PM

ven0m wrote: »

Pork slaughter houses & production factories have laid off approx. 2,000 staff now across Ireland temporarily, & refuse to resume production until the Irish Government agrees to a compensation package for them. Farmers Associations have made the same claims for 100,00 pigs they say they have to destroy that they cannot sell. This comes at a time when the exchequer is in trouble, & yet again we have another group of people claiming compensation & payment from the tax payer for problems the tax payer did not cause.

Now before you dismiss this , think about this. The NCA (National Consumers Association) says all pork products bought since September 1st (3 months ago - THREE MONTHS of contamination & it only comes to light in December publicly!!!!) are entitled to be returned by consumers to stores along with a receipt/proof of purchase for a refund under the claim 'not fit for purpose/damaged goods'.

All the retails agree on this also. Now, here's where it gets interesting. Why the **** are farmers & pork slaughter houses asking the tax payer to foot the bill, when the chain of events should be:

* retails claiming refunds from meat suppliers
* meat suppliers then claiming refunds from farmers
* farmers claiming refunds & compensation from feed suppliers

I mean, surely that makes far more sense than adding further burden to the public coffers, & needless compensation where it is not due from the public tax payer.

I advise everyone & anyone out there who takes part on radio shows, or otherwise to ensure this point is raised; the producers & farmers need to be made go back to claim THEIR REFUNDS FROM THEIR RESPECTIVE suppliers & not place this burden onto an already en-burdened taxpayer, & tax system that is already under incredible pressure due to overly greedy banks who were badly managed & regulated, as well as a government who mis-managed public funds & who themselves should be facing a PAC over the eVoting machines, & why we neer sought refunds & costs from the suppliers for EQUIPMENT THAT DID NOT WORK.

Everyone please ensure you add your 2 cents to the media & radio where & when you can on this - do NOT have your already tight tax money wasted or given to people who should be following the advice they issue in conjunction with the NCA!

+1

bottletops · 09-12-2008 01:33PM

ven0m wrote: »

* farmers claiming refunds & compensation from feed suppliers

Tell me where the feed suppliers get refunds from.... I mean the suppliers not involved in any way in this mess? The pig farming industry is only just recovering from some of its toughest times yet. Not so long ago farmers were LOSING €6 per pig. This was due to crazy feed prices driven by high prices on world markets. Most Pig farmers are still up to their eyes in debt and are getting no more help from the banks. Feed companies themselves are against the wall as they have many farmers with a lot of outstanding credit. They have been operating on tight margins to try to keep the industry alive as it is.

The thing is though, that the industry was just turning the corner and starting to come good again. What option is there but to help it out. Isn't it better to inject money so people can keep working, paying their taxes and not be joining the end of already too long dole queues? Where else will the money come from?

ven0m · 09-12-2008 01:33PM

noblestee wrote: »

This is as far as I got. If every tax payer only paid for problems they caused, the country would be in a much bigger mess than it is today.

Be that as it may I can't help but feel what you said is an atypical response from an atypical irish person who couldn't care less - it is this kind of apathy that has the country in the crap it is in - because the politicians in all parties know how apathetic the populous is to anything, they continue to screw us, abuse us, & generally not do their part of 'for the people, by the people', abuse money we pay in every day into the tax system, without any accountability & then later penalise us when they waste it.

Gordon Brown may be an arse, but at least he will talk the talk, unlike our shower of gits who go unchallenged.

If you pay for something, which you do through your tax - you have a right to complain, & not exercising that complaint when it is warranted is borderline criminal.

ejmaztec · 09-12-2008 01:34PM

The tax-payer will have to stump up because we all owe these people a living because they look after us so much and go out of their way to make certain that we don't get poisoned. :rolleyes:

ven0m · 09-12-2008 01:34PM

bottletops wrote: »

Tell me where the feed suppliers get refunds from.... I mean the suppliers not involved in any way in this mess? The pig farming industry is only just recovering from some of its toughest times yet. No so long ago farmers were LOSING €6 per pig. This was due to crazy feed prices driven by high prices on world markets. Most Pig farmers are still up to their eyes in debt and are getting no more help from the banks. Feed companies themselves are against the wall as they have many farmers on with a lot of outstanding credit.

The thing is though, that the industry was just turning the corner and starting to come good again. What option is there but to help it out. Isn't it better to inject money so people can keep working, paying their taxes and not be joining the end of already too long dole queues? Where else will the money come from?

Feed suppliers if they have caused the problem, well that's tough ****. If I produce a product that's dodgy & sell it on, especially where public health & safety is concerned - well then why should I be compensated??

Farmers should be taking claims against feed suppliers for damages, & EPA fines should be heavily mitagated against the feed suppliers, which should also go into a fund to help farmers obtain fair damages.

The tax payer should NOT be taking this hit, & to suggest otherwise you may as well be Roddy Molloy.

Blazer · 09-12-2008 01:35PM

It's the typical farmer mentality..someone somewhere has to compensate them..fair enough in this case but definitely not the taxpayers job to.

bottletops · 09-12-2008 01:47PM

ven0m wrote: »

Feed suppliers if they have caused the problem, well that's tough ****.

Re-ready my post..... I'm not talking about the 1 supplier who has caused this. I'm talking about the many others who have done nothing wrong.

Darragh29 · 09-12-2008 01:47PM

An update on this just in....

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/1209/pork.html

ven0m · 09-12-2008 01:51PM

bottletops wrote: »

Re-ready my post..... I'm not talking about the 1 supplier who has caused this. I'm talking about the many others who have done nothing wrong.

Those feed suppliers who have done nothing wrong, it is still business as usual - pigs still need feeding.

Feed suppliers aren't asking for hands out - farmers & pork slaughter houses/processing plants are, so your point is null & void with respect to feed suppliers.

ven0m · 09-12-2008 01:52PM

Darragh29 wrote: »

An update on this just in....

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/1209/pork.html

The ONE time the EU actually works .........

But still, NO government funding should go to farmers who had contaminated feed. They should be claiming back their refunds for faulty products under NCA guidelines, which are also part of European guidelines.

Biggins · 09-12-2008 01:55PM

ven0m wrote: »

The ONE time the EU actually works .........

Aye, they worked themselves up to say "No". :rolleyes:

Dyr · 09-12-2008 01:57PM

bottletops wrote: »

Tell me where the feed suppliers get refunds from.... I mean the suppliers not involved in any way in this mess? The pig farming industry is only just recovering from some of its toughest times yet. Not so long ago farmers were LOSING €6 per pig. This was due to crazy feed prices driven by high prices on world markets. Most Pig farmers are still up to their eyes in debt and are getting no more help from the banks. Feed companies themselves are against the wall as they have many farmers with a lot of outstanding credit. They have been operating on tight margins to try to keep the industry alive as it is.

The thing is though, that the industry was just turning the corner and starting to come good again. What option is there but to help it out. Isn't it better to inject money so people can keep working, paying their taxes and not be joining the end of already too long dole queues? Where else will the money come from?

Why is it that farming sector think they're the only ones to whom the state has a sacred responsibilty to keep in a job no matter what?

Bottom line is that the people who introduced the contamination into the food chain are to blame..let them pay. I'm not subsidising the farmers again.

Darragh29 · 09-12-2008 02:03PM

ven0m wrote: »

The ONE time the EU actually works .........

But still, NO government funding should go to farmers who had contaminated feed. They should be claiming back their refunds for faulty products under NCA guidelines, which are also part of European guidelines.

Given the loss here or before this happened, the opportuity for loss, do feed manufacturers not have to have insurance to cover this type of an eventuality?

ven0m · 09-12-2008 02:04PM

Darragh29 wrote: »

Given the loss here or before this happened, the opportuity for loss, do feed manufacturers not have to have insurance to cover this type of an eventuality?

Sure why would they do that when they know you, me & every other tax payer is there to be tapped whenever they like by a government who sees us as their own private personal cash cow herd. :rolleyes:

Actually, it is also worth pointing out that the workers being laid off by the grab assing whores are going to be funded by the tax payer - I'm sorry, but the companies involved should again be making the relevant claims, & not again passing the buck to the taxpayer.

Darragh29 · 09-12-2008 02:06PM

ven0m wrote: »

Sure why would they do that when they know you, me & every other tax payer is there to be tapped whenever they like by a government who sees us as their own private personal cash cow herd. :rolleyes:

Yeah but surely they HAVE to have their own insurance to deal with this type of an event?

ven0m · 09-12-2008 02:14PM

Darragh29 wrote: »

Yeah but surely they HAVE to have their own insurance to deal with this type of an event?

When the taxpayer is available to tap like your own in-house personal whore, why would you get insurance? For too long farming has been hailed as a sacred cow in Ireland, when it simply does not provide the most employment, tax revenue or otherwise. Saying it must be protected at all times, is as idiotic as those three morons in the US from GM, Chrysler & Ford who have their begging cups out because they couldn't run with a pair of Nike on, let alone the companies they are charged with.

Iago · 09-12-2008 02:20PM

Regardless of whether the government, and by extension the rest of us, bend over here the amounts being discussed make no sense.

We have a Pork business in Ireland that's estimated to be worth, at most, around €750m a year. That includes all exports and pig meat sold for a full calendar year to every possible destination in the world.

So the processors want €1Bn from the government for their losses over one 6 week period of the year. I don't care how busy the xmas period is, they're taking the piss completely if they think they can get away with it.

Add in every company that's using this as an excuse to lay off staff and avoid paying them a bonus over the xmas period and it all leaves a sour taste in the mouth. Rather like eating their products really.

faceman · 09-12-2008 02:22PM

Im for a level for compensation for those effected. Not all parties impacted by the issue were privy to the problem, which was caused by one company in Carlow. The money needs to be invested in getting things back on track rather than lining people's pockets.

2,000 people have already lost their jobs. 6,000 in total are employed by the industry.

There is a bigger issue here. Money will need to be invested to promote ALL irish food exports after this event. Its not as simple as a batch of animals getting sick. its about an unlicenses company acting in a fashion that went unnoticed for months.

ven0m · 09-12-2008 02:34PM

faceman wrote: »

Im for a level for compensation for those effected. Not all parties impacted by the issue were privy to the problem, which was caused by one company in Carlow. The money needs to be invested in getting things back on track rather than lining people's pockets.

It's a problem that was known about for 3 months in the industry & kept hush hush til the media broke the story

faceman wrote: »

2,000 people have already lost their jobs. 6,000 in total are employed by the industry.

This was elective by the company, not a necessity & it is conveniently just before Christmas & the hold-up in taking people back to work is the suits in charge grab-assing! I'll bet the directors still took their company cars & used them, & are still engaged in 'expensed-lunches'. Cry me a river. It's the same as the three morons from Chrysler, Ford & GM who flew on private jets & transferred by private limo with their 'begging cups in hand', with their fat bonus's still intact before Senate committees in the US.

faceman wrote: »

There is a bigger issue here. Money will need to be invested to promote ALL irish food exports after this event. Its not as simple as a batch of animals getting sick. its about an unlicenses company acting in a fashion that went unnoticed for months.

And no fines will be handed down, no directors excluded from directorships, & not even an apology to the public who have been ingesting poisons for three months which were at up to 200 times suggested 'tolerable' amounts.

Yes sure, let's yet again protect another industry which takes public health & & safety as a joke. If this was a restaurant in dublin causing 200 people food poisoning, it'd be shut down. Millions of people across europe ingested possible pork products from meats processed there. Maths at that brief level of explanation are themselves self explanitory, as is the correct & proper courses of action with all involved & allegedly 'affected'.

faceman · 09-12-2008 02:40PM

ven0m wrote: »

It's a problem that was known about for 3 months in the industry & kept hush hush til the media broke the story

says who? Show me evidence that suggests everyone involved kept it hush hush.

wrote:

This was elective by the company, not a necessity & it is conveniently just before Christmas & the hold-up in taking people back to work is the suits in charge grab-assing!

i dont follow your sentence here but im presuming that you mean that it was excuse to lay off people? Again, where is the evidence of this?

wrote:

And no fines will be handed down, no directors excluded from directorships, & not even an apology to the public who have been ingesting poisons for three months which were at up to 200 times suggested 'tolerable' amounts.

We will have to wait and see what comes out of the garda investigation on this one. But i agree, heads should roll.

wrote:

Yes sure, let's yet again protect another industry which takes public health & & safety as a joke. If this was a restaurant in dublin causing 200 people food poisoning, it'd be shut down. Millions of people across europe ingested possible pork products from meats processed there. Maths at that brief level of explanation are themselves self explanitory, as is the correct & proper courses of action with all involved & allegedly 'affected'.

Um, how is the money going to be used to protect the industry if its going to be invested in putting things back on track?

aidan_walsh · 09-12-2008 02:46PM

ven0m wrote: »

Be that as it may I can't help but feel what you said is an atypical response from an atypical irish person who couldn't care less - it is this kind of apathy that has the country in the crap it is in - because the politicians in all parties know how apathetic the populous is to anything, they continue to screw us, abuse us, & generally not do their part of 'for the people, by the people', abuse money we pay in every day into the tax system, without any accountability & then later penalise us when they waste it.

Gordon Brown may be an arse, but at least he will talk the talk, unlike our shower of gits who go unchallenged.

If you pay for something, which you do through your tax - you have a right to complain, & not exercising that complaint when it is warranted is borderline criminal.

I don't think atypical means what you think it means...

grahamo · 09-12-2008 02:52PM

Compo for farmers and meat processors? They should think themselves lucky that after poisoning Joe Public He isn't suing their arses off!!!
P.S. I think they should be at least apologising to the public.

ven0m · 09-12-2008 04:21PM

faceman wrote: »

says who? Show me evidence that suggests everyone involved kept it hush hush.

It has been known about for three months by the EPA & others, including the dept. of agriculture. What else would you can call that, please tell me you're not THAT stupid!

faceman wrote: »

i dont follow your sentence here but im presuming that you mean that it was excuse to lay off people? Again, where is the evidence of this?

Their first actions when it gets media attention - lay staff off, then with-hold taking staff back til they get a government hand out, at a time when unemployment is a hot-topic ..... how interesting.....

faceman wrote: »

We will have to wait and see what comes out of the garda investigation on this one. But i agree, heads should roll.

Amen

faceman wrote: »

Um, how is the money going to be used to protect the industry if its going to be invested in putting things back on track?

Because government handouts in this country to troubled industry is almost always abused & misappropriated, has the Fas scenario not taught you anything? Or previous 'aid' to farming organisations, where not long after hand-outs loads of farmers 'sold off' land to developers .... the correct action here is firstly heads rolling; accountability & culpability. And there's LOTS.

sheeesh, some people have very VERY short memories......

ven0m · 09-12-2008 04:24PM

aidan_walsh wrote: »

I don't think atypical means what you think it means...

Sorry, meant typical or 'stereoptypical' really ... but thank you teacher on your very very valuable addition to the thread of discussion, where I'm sure my choice of wording (or misuse as the case is) is more important than my tax money being given to greedy bastards in suits who think we owe them a living.

phantom_lord · 09-12-2008 04:28PM

bottletops wrote: »

Tell me where the feed suppliers get refunds from.... I mean the suppliers not involved in any way in this mess? The pig farming industry is only just recovering from some of its toughest times yet. Not so long ago farmers were LOSING €6 per pig. This was due to crazy feed prices driven by high prices on world markets. Most Pig farmers are still up to their eyes in debt and are getting no more help from the banks. Feed companies themselves are against the wall as they have many farmers with a lot of outstanding credit. They have been operating on tight margins to try to keep the industry alive as it is.

The thing is though, that the industry was just turning the corner and starting to come good again. What option is there but to help it out. Isn't it better to inject money so people can keep working, paying their taxes and not be joining the end of already too long dole queues? Where else will the money come from?

boo hoo. if farming isn't viable then they should go do something else and not expect to be subsidized for running a loss making business.

javaboy · 09-12-2008 04:56PM

ven0m wrote: »

noblestee wrote: »

This is as far as I got. If every tax payer only paid for problems they caused, the country would be in a much bigger mess than it is today.

Be that as it may I can't help but feel what you said is an atypical response from an atypical irish person who couldn't care less - it is this kind of apathy that has the country in the crap it is in - because the politicians in all parties know how apathetic the populous is to anything, they continue to screw us, abuse us, & generally not do their part of 'for the people, by the people', abuse money we pay in every day into the tax system, without any accountability & then later penalise us when they waste it.

Noblestee is making a good point though. Sometimes the taxpayer has to step in and fix things that the taxpayer didn't break because to do otherwise would be socially/morally irresponsible or would be a case of cutting of your nose to spite your face. e.g. fixing the health service, guaranteeing banks and maybe bailing out the pig farming industry.

It's all well and good to say consumers claim off retailers, retailers claim off suppliers, suppliers claim off feed manafacturers but in reality that won't work. I don't have the receipt for my rashers and sausages and the sliced ham I threw out. I'd say countless people are in the same boat. And you seem to be only considering the produce that had to be scrapped. There are so many other losses involved. Consumer confidence in Irish pork has been eroded here and destroyed abroad.

That has cost jobs already and will cost more. No amount of refunds for discarded meat will be able to compensate for that. And as for suing the feed company at the centre of it all, what will happen there is it will quickly go bankrupt and nobody will get much out of them.

So we'll have a seriously damaged pork industry and the taxpayer will still have to fork out for the dole payments.

ShooterSF · 09-12-2008 05:12PM

It really is pretty stupid. Taxpayer returns meat to store. Gets refund. Store returns meat to farmer. Gets refund. Refund is taken back off taxpayer to give back to farmer. Farmer and store win.

If the pork industry is worth so much surely farmers can sell their farms to someone with the finances to turn the farm back into profit. Isn't this how capitalism works?

javaboy · 09-12-2008 05:29PM

ShooterSF wrote: »

It really is pretty stupid. Taxpayer returns meat to store. Gets refund. Store returns meat to farmer. Gets refund. Refund is taken back off taxpayer to give back to farmer. Farmer and store win.

Jobs have already been lost and receipts have already been binned. The idea sounds nice in principle but it wouldn't work.

If the pork industry is worth so much surely farmers can sell their farms to someone with the finances to turn the farm back into profit. Isn't this how capitalism works?

That's a fair point. Unfortunately investors don't have buckets of money floating around at the moment. As Sarah Palin might say, "I feel ill" over any pork industry bailout but I'd rather have a thriving pork industry that got out of jail at the taxpayer's expense once than a devastated pork industry.

Campaign to say NO to govt compensation over pork problem

Comments