Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Time to bring back the death penalty

Options
1246

Comments

  • Options
    #92
    cson
    Registered Users Posts: 14,430 ✭✭✭✭cson


    javaboy wrote: »
    And as for this thread being pointless, so are hundreds of other threads. If you could bring in one law what would it be? If you could have a superpower what would it be? If you won the lotto et cetera. Obviously the death penalty isn't going to be brought in on the back of this thread but that shouldn't be a reason to stop people having a bit of a debate about it.

    The thread is irrelevant.

    The argument is pointless.

    Take a leaf out of your own book and read more carefully. ;)


  • Options
    #93
    javaboy
    Registered Users Posts: 15,094 ✭✭✭✭javaboy


    cson wrote: »
    Ok I'm a little confused here; You maintain you're against capital punishment but as far as I can see, all you've done in this thread is outline reasons why it could be implemented. I fail to see the rationale in that if you are, as you say yourself, against capital punishment.

    Ok I'll explain my opinion on it. I'm against capital punishment but yes I do think it could be implemented. I think a system of capital punishment could be developed that does not have the long drawn out process and the many flaws that say the USA one has.

    I oppose the death penalty on principle not on practicalities.
    Name me one country where capital punishment works?

    No. There might be one and there might not be. Defining whether capital punishment works or not would be very subjective anyway. But I maintain that theoretically it could be done.
    For the most part the type of person that commits a crime eligible for capital punishment does so irrespective of the overhanging threat of it.

    Probably so. But much like a life sentence doesn't mean life, neither does a death sentence mean death. It means possible death after years upon years in jail and appeals courts. That inefficiency and bureaucracy softens the threat of capital punishment greatly.


  • Options
    #94
    javaboy
    Registered Users Posts: 15,094 ✭✭✭✭javaboy


    cson wrote: »
    The thread is irrelevant.

    The argument is pointless.

    Take a leaf out of your own book and read more carefully. ;)

    Are you referring to your earlier assertion that the people would never vote for it in a referendum? And about having to relinquish UN or EU membership?


  • Options
    #95
    x in the city
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,134 ✭✭✭x in the city


    TBH if he can kill someone with a gun at 13 what sorta impressive record will he have amassed when he is 23,

    usually at 13 they start killing cats...:(

    hmm, so FWIW I think the death penalty would do this boy quite well terrible as it sounds...!


  • Options
    #96
    cson
    Registered Users Posts: 14,430 ✭✭✭✭cson


    RE It could be implemented: So you expect to just pluck out of the air a perfect efficient system that would have the convict dead as soon as possible? Do you consider that if such a system were possible that it would be in operation in some countrys at this minute? Or that the US would have considered it?

    Honestly, where do you think we are, China?


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #97
    cson
    Registered Users Posts: 14,430 ✭✭✭✭cson


    javaboy wrote: »
    Are you referring to your earlier assertion that the people would never vote for it in a referendum? And about having to relinquish UN or EU membership?

    ???

    What has that got to do with my post? I was clarifying what I had said after you misquoted me.


  • Options
    #98
    javaboy
    Registered Users Posts: 15,094 ✭✭✭✭javaboy


    cson wrote: »
    RE It could be implemented: So you expect to just pluck out of the air a perfect efficient system that would have the convict dead as soon as possible?

    Not pluck it out of the air no. Obviously you'd look at other systems that don't work and figure out what to do different. Theoretically it would be possible.
    Do you consider that if such a system were possible that it would be in operation in some countrys at this minute? Or that the US would have considered it?

    The US already has a bloated bureaucratic unwieldy legal system especially in relation to the death penalty. It would require a virtual reconstruction of the entire system there to allow for a more streamlined death penalty. Again in theory it could be done but in practice, it's evidently not worth the effort to them. The same applies to lots of developed countries with or without the death penalty.


  • Options
    #99
    nobodythere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,349 ✭✭✭nobodythere


    What was so bad about putting people in the town stockings for the day


  • Options
    #100
    javaboy
    Registered Users Posts: 15,094 ✭✭✭✭javaboy


    cson wrote: »
    ???

    What has that got to do with my post? I was clarifying what I had said after you misquoted me.

    Gotcha. I mixed up your use of irrelevant and pointless. Sorry about that.


  • Options
    #101
    cson
    Registered Users Posts: 14,430 ✭✭✭✭cson


    Imo a 'perfect' capital punishment system the way you are suggesting would be highly unlikely nigh on impossible to construct. As I said, if it were relatively simple it would be in use around the world with countries who employ this particular style of punishment.

    In any case this issue is very unlikely to ever rear its head in Ireland. Nothwithstanding the latest murder, crime rates in Ireland are low in comparision to the rest of the world. There is nothing inherently wrong with the judicial system just those who implement it. While I defend the judiciary on most points, a suspended sentence for rape does not impress me either.

    I'm a firm believer that socio-demographic principles are a huge cause of most of the crime we see in Ireland today. While that may seem obvious to the point of 'duh' its how you are raised that has a tangible relation to how likely you are to commit a crime imo. Most parents instil a respect in their children for their family, for their community but mostly for themselves. I do believe that serial offenders lack this and it leads to a disenfranchisement of sorts with society. Effectively one must tackle the root of the problem (which is the aforementioned) before resorting to the draconian measures suggested here.

    Cart before the horse and all that.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #102
    cson
    Registered Users Posts: 14,430 ✭✭✭✭cson


    grasshopa wrote: »
    What was so bad about putting people in the town stockings for the day

    I know you've said that in jest, but it's actually a fair point.

    If young offenders felt embarrassed in front of their peers like that it'd go some way to setting them on the right track again.


  • Options
    #103
    nobodythere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,349 ✭✭✭nobodythere


    cson wrote: »
    I know you've said that in jest, but it's actually a fair point.

    If young offenders felt embarrassed in front of their peers like that it'd go some way to setting them on the right track again.

    I know I said that in jest also. But I was really just putting it out there!


  • Options
    #104
    Thirdfox
    Registered Users Posts: 7,110 ✭✭✭Thirdfox


    grasshopa wrote: »
    What was so bad about putting people in the town stockings for the day

    ECHR wouldn't stand for it (never mind domestic civil liberties). We would also need to go against the UN by reneging on our ratification of the "Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment" in all likelihood (which would be a legal nightmare).

    For the death penalty to come back to Ireland we would need
    1) a constitutional referendum - see Art. 15.5.2
    The Oireachtas shall not enact any law providing for the imposition of the death penalty.

    2) pull out of the EU as the death penalty is a key issue over membership and test of a competent legal system. Many of the Eastern European countries had to change theirs so they could join up.

    We would be welcomed with open arms by some states in the US, Iran, Saudi Arabia, many African countries, quite a few Asian countries (China, Japan - they hang people to death there...) though.

    Crime in Ireland doesn't seem like it's that bad - we're no US, nor are we as safe as Japan (almost though!) The death penalty would be such a step backwards when we're trying to build a consensus around the world to limit and abolish its use.

    We still make a ruckus on the news when someone is murdered... in some places in the US it would make the news if no-one that day was murdered! My US friends are amazed when I tell them about our lenient legal system - an average of 12 years is spent on a "life" sentence. Here in the US life means...until you die. So I would be in favour of a deeper analysis of our sentencing laws to ensure we're getting the best balance of deterrence and civil liberties/human dignity of prisoners.

    Now to get back to the law revision I've been putting off...


  • Options
    #105
    Thirdfox
    Registered Users Posts: 7,110 ✭✭✭Thirdfox


    cson wrote: »
    Name me one country where capital punishment works?

    Playing devil's advocate - Japan seems like a "good" example of the implementation of the death penalty.

    For example they've sentenced to death a cultist who released the sarin nerve-gas on Tokyo subways in 1995. It killed 12 and affected thousands of people.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarin_gas_attack_on_the_Tokyo_subway

    If the death penalty is about retribution then this would probably be one of the best examples of where it should be applied. It was an eight year trial and he's been on death row for five years now...


  • Options
    #106
    The Sweeper
    Registered Users Posts: 10,658 ✭✭✭✭The Sweeper


    grasshopa wrote: »
    What was so bad about putting people in the town stockings for the day

    Because people who were locked into the stocks were routinely raped and sodomised by even less savoury members of the local community because it was all considered as part of their punishment. Being unable to retaliate because they were in stocks meant they were fair game.

    If you were caught and put in stocks, it wasn't just to have vegetables thrown at you. You needed to hope you had a friend out there somewhere who'd defend you when the sun set.


  • Options
    #107
    tech77
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,736 ✭✭✭tech77


    MagicMarker wrote: »
    What's the problem with building a big giant prison anyway? The construction would create jobs, the final product will create jobs and it will create room for scumbags with a 'sheet' as long as my cock (for all you know it's really long!) who shouldn't be on the streets.

    How many prisons are there currently in Ireland, and what's the total capacity?

    I don't think the OP was referring to petty criminals with a couple of convictions tbh :D;)


  • Options
    #108
    Blazer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,427 ✭✭✭✭Blazer


    TPD wrote: »
    Can everyone here please look back for a moment to when you were 13: Surely, even at that age you knew that killing someone is just about the worst thing you can do, you understand that they are gone forever once you do it.

    In fact, at 13 I wouldnt be suprised if kids take advantage of the law, I certainly remember hearing kids in my secondary school talking about how they would only get 'done' as a juvenile for stealing mopeds (Which seemed a regular passtime for them).

    A 13 year old does know the law, and (unless I was an unusually bright 13 year old), they would accept that killing someone intentionally without provocation or a direct life threat is the worst thing to do which deserves the worst punishment.

    Maybe not killing 13 year olds, but putting them in an insane asylum (Not sure if thats the PC term) untill theyre 18 and then in prison until theyre 25 or so, and only released after extensive character analysis.

    I'd let him run free till his 18th birthday.
    Show up at his party and then jail him for 20 years or so.
    That would soon stop the scumbags and could actually be a deterrent although I'm sure some of them would try and skip the country or go nuts for a few years. So ankle bracelets from day 1 and for each misdemeanor add on years then.
    I'm sure some of them would think twice about getting into trouble after this if it meant increasing their sentences.
    No matter what the pc brigade says..a 13yr old (unless retarded) knows the difference between life and death.


  • Options
    #109
    mountainyman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,268 ✭✭✭mountainyman


    Tom65 wrote: »
    +1

    Children aren't fully capable of processing consequences, and their rationality isn't as fully developed as an adult's. It's the reason the state protects children. If we can hang 13 year olds why not let them vote, drink, drive, join the army, get married etc. etc?

    To the OP, How many innocent 13 year olds are you willing to kill to hang a guilty one in the name of justice?

    What is innocence. Any 13 year old who is hanged will be guilty of something even if not the crime he is accused of.

    1 innocent a year is about the number needed. I wouldn't see more than 10 hangings a year once we worked through teh backlog.


  • Options
    #110
    mountainyman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,268 ✭✭✭mountainyman


    javaboy wrote: »
    I don't actually understand your post.

    Anyway here's the story: Had your ten minute or one week rule been in place in the not too distant past, several innocent people would have been executed. The legal system is not infallible despite DNA and all the other wonderful advancements in forensic science. At the end of the day it comes down to 12 people who are free to make up their minds on the guilt of the defendant based on his hairstyle if they want.

    Innocent people (of the specific crime they are charged with) have to die for the death panalty to be efficient. You have to accept some collateral damage.

    Those so called innocents are ususally criminals.


  • Options
    #111
    mountainyman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,268 ✭✭✭mountainyman


    deleriumtremens wrote: »
    That kids action was the result of a long chain of causality and hence was always going to happen.
    But I'm going to pretend I dont know that and say fry the wee fcuker!!

    Then, we wont be responsible for HIS death because the decision to kill him would also have been the result of a long chain of casual events which couldnt have happened otherwise.

    I'm sure his mother neglects him, his uncle rode him, he never knew his dad etc. etc. And I am so sorry for the poor little sodomised mite. BUT

    HOW MANY PEOPEL HAVE TO DIE WHILE HE WORKS THORUGH HIS ISSUES.

    s=


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #112
    mountainyman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,268 ✭✭✭mountainyman


    That 13 year old probably has a functioning heart lungs etc. (everything but a conscience) so hang him and use his organs to SAVE lives.


  • Options
    #113
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Another thread full of jumping up and down, no irony, and no sense of history. This board is at least consistent.


  • Options
    #114
    papajimsmooth
    Registered Users Posts: 779 ✭✭✭papajimsmooth


    What we need is a battle royale complex set up on the aran islands.


  • Options
    #115
    4zn76tysfajdxp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,944 ✭✭✭✭4zn76tysfajdxp


    mountainyman wrote: »
    Innocent people (of the specific crime they are charged with) have to die for the death panalty to be efficient. You have to accept some collateral damage.

    Not if you were the innocent man being hanged.
    mountainyman wrote: »
    Those so called innocents are ususally criminals.

    ...


  • Options
    #116
    mountainyman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,268 ✭✭✭mountainyman


    Angela Wooden Roadwork wrote: »
    Not if you were the innocent man being hanged.



    ...

    You could be hit by a bus tomorrow! If a few 'innocents' are killed for the rest of us to live in freedom and safety I am fine with that.


  • Options
    #117
    Ziggurat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 280 ✭✭Ziggurat


    mountainyman wrote: »
    You could be hit by a bus tomorrow! If a few 'innocents' are killed for the rest of us to live in freedom and safety I am fine with that.

    And if you and your family are those innocents? Would you be so quick to champion the death penalty?

    No one - not one innocent man, woman or child - should have to die, just so you can get your jollies off. Because as far as I can see, that's the only reason you want it.

    Perhaps you should reconsider this, in light of your position:
    HOW MANY PEOPEL HAVE TO DIE WHILE HE WORKS THORUGH HIS ISSUES.


  • Options
    #118
    Robbo
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 10,560 Mod ✭✭✭✭Robbo


    grasshopa wrote: »
    What was so bad about putting people in the town stockings for the day
    With the luxurious treatment out criminals get at the hands of the state (foie gras, bouncy castles and gingerbread cells in the Joy; I know because Paul Williams told me and it was "chilling") it wouldn't be far from town stockings to having a municipal suspender belt and corset.

    We need to be tough on lingerie, tough on the causes of lingerie.

    Now if you'll excuse me, I have an Ann Summers to torch.


  • Options
    #119
    kleefarr
    Registered Users Posts: 5,743 ✭✭✭kleefarr


    mountainyman wrote: »

    I know that innocent people will die if we introduce and use the death penalty but it is a price worth paying.

    Compared to the last time the death penalty was about, I would imagine that there wouldn't be anywhere near the "innocent" deaths than would occur now. Also, I'm damn sure that it was the other way around on plenty of occasions, the guilty got a way with it.

    It's a lot easier to prove somebody committed murder these days and that should, in my opinion, get the death penalty.


  • Options
    #120
    Lockstep
    Registered Users Posts: 9,029 ✭✭✭Lockstep


    Holsten wrote: »
    Maybe that's why it's so messed up.
    If you say so.

    I'm glad we have a law system which ensures a certain standard keeps the remedy from becoming worse than the disease.
    Holsten wrote: »
    The Justice system should be based on one thing - Justice... yet so many people do not see it.
    You don't seem to see the distinction between justice and retribution.
    Holsten wrote: »
    Punishment should be the main concern for the system.
    Oh yes, it really works doesn't it? All those Victorian jails such as Newgate were marked successes.


    The aim of the system is to attempt to redress the wrong and harmonise society.

    Not throw a steak to the blood baying trogs who seems to think inflicting something out of an Itchy and Scratchy cartoon will fix everything.
    Mathew Reilly wrote: »
    No matter what the pc brigade says..a 13yr old (unless retarded) knows the difference between life and death.
    The reason so many people are oppposed to executing retards is that they don;t understand the gravity of what they might do.
    Most of the ones I've met have a sense of right and wrong, as you put forward with 13 year olds.

    Regardless, the point is they don't grasp the complexities or have the self control to understand it on the level that a fully cognitive adult does.
    That is why few support executing retards, and also why we don't execute kids.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #121
    mountainyman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,268 ✭✭✭mountainyman


    We have a modern and efficeint police force. We have DNA evidence.

    The advantage for the death penalty is that it is final. What would the impact be on Ireland if the 2000 worst were hanged?


Advertisement