Cyclists, Go use the footpad.

DirkVoodoo · 05-12-2008 12:18am

What about footpaths, street lighting, bins, etc. Where do you draw the line on what people should be taxed for separately that is provided by the government and paid for by other taxes (VAT, income, etc.)? Motorists get to use the most expensive roads in the country, exclusively: motorways. You are taxed on a luxury, no one forces you to drive and maybe it would be better if you walked/cycled for shorter trips?

Also a lot of cyclists would argue that most cycle lanes/paths are inherently dangerous, poorly designed and woefully maintained and would be happier (and safer) sharing the bus lane.

It was a stupid thread to begin with. I'm a pedestrian/cyclist/motorist and not one group is perfect or has the right to impose themselves on the other, we all share the same transport system and a bit of respect from ALL sides would not go amiss.

Case closed...

johntreacy · 05-12-2008 12:32am

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

Motorists get to use the most expensive roads in the country, exclusively: motorways.

And for that we pay toll's on those as well.
I drive because I have to, traveling almost 80 miles per day for work, not for the luxury.

DirkVoodoo · 05-12-2008 12:36am

You don't get paid to work?

randylonghorn · 05-12-2008 12:44am

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

What about footpaths, street lighting, bins, etc. Where do you draw the line on what people should be taxed for separately that is provided by the government and paid for by other taxes (VAT, income, etc.)? Motorists get to use the most expensive roads in the country, exclusively: motorways. You are taxed on a luxury, no one forces you to drive and maybe it would be better if you walked/cycled for shorter trips?

Add to which that many new road projects have been significantly subsidised by the EU; that income from "road tax" wouldn't even make a dent; that there are many good policy reasons for promoting (AND improving) both public transport and cycle-routes, not all of them purely "green", though our government like many others is too afraid to put the votes of the motorists at risk ...

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

... and not one group is perfect or has the right to impose themselves on the other, we all share the same transport system and a bit of respect from ALL sides would not go amiss.

But yes: + 100

DirkVoodoo · 05-12-2008 12:48am

Anywa, I'm off, but like a LOT of people I know who cycle I do so by choice. When I pass by cyclists on the way home I know that a lot of them aren't cycling because they are "hippies" or can't afford a car, they are doing it for other reasons like health/enjoyment/convenience (for me, all 3) so maybe as motorists you should be thanking them for taking more cars off the road.

And so what if you have to pass one out, how much of a delay could that possibly be? I would imagine a few seconds at the very most.

Danbo! · 05-12-2008 1:12am

I've only had a quick scan over this thread, so hopefully the points I make haven't been discussed already.

johntreacy wrote: »

I as a motorist pay road tax for building new roads and the upkeep of existing one's,

NO YOU DONT!!!!!!

Common misconsception amongst motorists here... 'Oh I paid my road tax, I own the road.' So tell me john, did you pay that road tax in a road tax office? No. You paid it in the motor tax office. I am sick to death of car drivers giving out that all their 'road' tax isnt going to roads. It's bloody motor tax, not road tax

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

they are doing it for other reasons like health/enjoyment/convenience (for me, all 3)

Same here. I pay over €300 a year to tax my car, and never use it to get to and from work (D24 to city centre). I always cycle fort the 3 reasons above. So some (most I know) cyclists have paid 'road' tax.

IMO, every road user in this country really needs to learn the rules of the road. The whole cyclist vs motorist vs pedestrian argument will go on forever. There are idiots on bikes, on foot and behind the wheel of s car.
If you drive, you notice the idiot cyclists and peds.
If you walk, you notice the idiots drivers and cyclist.
If you cycle, you notice the idiot drivers and peds.

Simple as that.

krudler · 05-12-2008 2:07am

mp1972 wrote: »

Hey, I can play this too.

1. Cycle lanes are for bikes, once you stop parking and driving on them we won't have to swerve out onto the 'road'.

2. Cycle lanes are lanes on the road like any other. If we are on it, it is NOT OK to turn left and cut us out so we have to jam on our breaks and nearly kill ourselves.

3. Some cycle lanes end abruptly, There's nothing we can do.

4. On roundabouts, if you are behind us/ahead of us it is NOT OK to cut accross us.

5. On roundabout, it is NOT OK for you to zoom out of your entrance just as we get to it, we are on the roundabout first, WE have right of way.

6. You don't get to honk your horn at us just for the sake of it. Stop being a c**t.

7. Roads without cycle lanes are usually wide enough for both of us, stop hugging the curb so that we can't get by. Move the f**k over, if we hit your mirror because we can't slow down on time, tough s**t.

8. We have as much right to be on the road as you do. Stop acting like c**ts.

9. Stop sitting behind us for ages, driving slowly when we're over as far as we can be, not swerving and being safe. Driving slow behind us is just annoying/makes you nervous and makes things more dangerous. (This mostly applies to older women)

10. When we're in the right hand lane, because we're turning right, it's not OK to beep at us. We're allowed to be there.

11. Most of us try to be as safe as possible, every time WE go out on the roads, we take our lives into our hands. You lot break the rules of the road as do we. Everyone does it but you f**kers do it WAY more than us. Anytime I do something remotely dangerous 99% of the time it's because I'm trying to avoid something some moron motorist has done. You lot REALLY need to learn the rules of the road.

I have LOADS more, if you want.

More to this from a motorists pov

1. Red lights mean stop, that doesnt mean slow down, then pedal yourself into oncoming traffic making a nuisance of yourselves

2. my car is not a ****ing rest to lean up against/balance yourself/steady against while you drink from your little lucozade sport bottle fixed to the handlebar, next time someone does it I'm going to reverse over them

3.Cars have indicators, when they blink it means we're going in that direction, looking over your shoulder then veering off to the other side of the road is not indicating you want to turn

4.cycle shorts should never be worn by anyone, ever, you're not Lance Armstrong, just stop it.

5.Wearing a cycle helmet may be safe, but will never, ever, ever make you look anything other than a prat

6.Squeezing yourself through spaces between traffic annoys the **** out of everyone, bumping off cars and scratching them will get you killed one day, stop it

7. We have as much right to be on the road as you do. Stop acting like c**ts.

flyton5 · 05-12-2008 2:15am

i saw a cyclist trying to hand signal a right turn into UCD last week at the water tower enterance.....1st of all he was in the left lane even though there's a right hand lane specifically for turning into UCD....but forget that....the bastard almost killed himself when he stuck his and out.....gave the funniest wobble on his bike and cracked his nuts off the crossbar when he jumped off the bike to steady himself.....funniest thing i'd seen in a while.....all the cars in the right hand lane were pissing themselves at him....cheered my hungover day right up....

monument · 05-12-2008 2:17am

taconnol wrote: »

Actually the DTO don't think that cycle lanes are the best solution

Oh, so that's why they published a map of the apparently great looking cycle lane network in Dublin. You know, the one that's not real.

Sean_K wrote: »

It's the same as riding a motorbike on the footpath.

No, it's not.

Deleted User wrote: »

is boards.ie legal documentation now?

Deleted User wrote: »

not actually true before people start saying this thread can be used as legal evidence.. again.

It's simply evidence. Something does not have to be a "legal document" to be evidence. Emails have been used in court cases, so all that would be needed is it link you with your account.

Deleted User wrote: »

cyclists break rules constantly by the small fact that only about 1% of cyclists .... wear luminous clothing.

You need to read the rules of the road. Making up rules for others is nearly always a sign you don't know the rules you should be following.

swingking wrote: »

Also, the cyclist groups give out so much about not having enough safety when cycling in the city and how they fear for their lives. how many do you see wearing helmets. Do they not realise that as soon as they are thrown off their bikes they could fall on their unprotected heads and suffer brain damage.

You start wearing one while walking around anywhere and while in cars, and then I'll wear one cycling. Because there's lots to say it'd help you more.

swingking wrote: »

1. Please use the cycle lanes when there are cycle lanes available to use. The other day I was driving along and some tosser thinks he would rather cycle on the road even though there was a perfectly good cycle lane beside him...

Please keep in mind the following reasons why cyclists won't use many of our badly designed and maintained cycle lanes in Ireland...

there's always cars parked in them (even in clearways etc)
they are unsafe by design
they are unsafe due to lack of maintenance
they are unsafe due to people walking in them
they are not legally cycle lanes (often the case with "footpad" cycle lanes)

swingking wrote: »

...AND there was a footpath.

So what?

BraziliaNZ · 05-12-2008 2:51am

leave cyclists alone. They aren't clogging the city with disgusting cars, and for that they should be respected and allowed cycle wherever they want. Eff off with your horrible polluting cars. I don't know how many 1000s of people I used to cycle past in Dublin every morning who were happy to clog up the roads in their cars and sit in traffic for 90 mins to travel 5k to work. Take your traffic frustration out on someone else, or get off your lazy fat polluting arses and cycle yourselves.

flyton5 · 05-12-2008 2:53am

BraziliaNZ wrote: »

leave cyclists alone. They aren't clogging the city with disgusting cars, and for that they should be respected and allowed cycle wherever they want. Eff off with your horrible polluting cars. I don't know how many 1000s of people I used to cycle past in Dublin every morning who were happy to clog up the roads in their cars and sit in traffic for 90 mins to travel 5k to work. Take your traffic frustration out on someone else, or get off your lazy fat polluting arses and cycle yourselves.

is this Eamon Ryan?? god i hate the green party....

BraziliaNZ · 05-12-2008 3:50am

Domo230 wrote: »

If I stop wearing my helmet will you think im cool?

I got a fine in NZ for not wearing one on my way to work. I never used to wear them in Dublin though and nothing ever happened. Are you supposed to wear them by law? Here in Oz and in NZ everyone wears the things, like 100% of people.

nobodythere · 05-12-2008 3:54am

Deleted User wrote: »

don't see cyclists paying "cycle tax"..

Nobody asked them to.

BraziliaNZ · 05-12-2008 3:58am

Domo230 wrote: »

I rarely see people wearing them. Im one of the few college students who wears one anyway.

But id rather be safe and look like a prat than risk taking a knock to the head.

do you not get like inner city kids throwing bottles at you and sh*t and shouting abuse at you?

AFC_1903 · 05-12-2008 6:40am

Everyone is free to use bicycles on the road. We do so as taxpayers. The taxes we pay are used for many things - including roads. Roads are not excusively for the usage of those who choose to pay for a car, petrol, and road tax - they're for everyone. You choose to drive - fair enough, that's your decision, but don't attack or intimidate other road users (either on here or with your car) because they don't want to drive. I personally choose not to. It's quicker to get around cities in this country by bike than it is by car, and you don't need to worry about finding for a parking space.

Ads by Google - even IF you are, as you claim to be, a perfect driver, I can assure you that the majority of motorists aren't. On a daily basis I see cars run lights, squeeze past me when there is not the space to do so safely, both park and drive in the cycle lanes, drivers who are incapable of using indicators, who don't know the correct way to indicate on a roundabout, etc etc.

Cycle lanes are often in a terrible state too, as they are often covered in glass etc. Especially true of those further from city centres, as there are less likely to be street sweepers there on a regular basis. Clipping a branch or jaggy bushes overgrowing the road/lane with a car wheel isn't a worry if you're driving, likewise wet leaves, but if you're cycling it's a different (more dangerous) story). This is of course assuming they are not being used as parking spaces by cars. All cyclists know of areas where this happens all the time. In Cork it's beside CIT. Outside the Centra EVERY lunchtime, and usually along Rossa Avenue in the evenings, from motorists with evening classes who are too lazy to use the free off-road parking because it involves driving round to the back of the building. This means that often the cyclist is forced to ride in the road that their taxes paid for!

When it boils down to it, in a collision between a bike and a car there will be only one winner. And it's not the cyclist. I know this, due to motorist lack of skills/knowledge etc i've had several accidents (none of which I was to blame for) and even been pushed off my bike by an outstretched hand from a car's passanger seat once. God knows how many more accidents I would've had due to bad motorists were it not for quick reflexes and good brakes.

Examples of terrible accidents in which the cyclists most definitly did not win:
http://autoworld.wordpress.com/2008/06/03/terrible-accident-car-crashes-into-bike-race-in-mexico/
http://www.thestar.com/article/541694

And was this Irish one you?
http://www.herald.ie/national-news/city-news/road-rage-driver-rams-13-cyclists-then-drives-away-1544687.html

The roads are for all of us to use, as we all pay for them. Nobody has the right to endanger, gambol or attempt to take another persons life. So please drive carefully, be considerate, and remember that Irish roads were cycled on long before they were ever being driven.

Lumen · 05-12-2008 8:26am

Ads By Google,

I understand your point of view. It is nonetheless wrong.

Please try to understand the following:

1. Cyclists have a right to use the road.

2. Cycling on the footpath is illegal and often dangerous. Trying to increase road safety (your stated aim) by encouraging such behaviour is illogical.

3. You are never "forced" to make a dangerous overtake. The fact that you decide to make a dangerous overtake means you are an unsafe (read "bad") driver. Read "Roadcraft" (police driver training book) if you want to understand how to be fast and safe.

As an aside, cyclists are easier to overtake than cars, because they are slower. If every cyclist instead used a car, your journey would therefore take much longer.

Sam Vimes · 05-12-2008 9:34am

you want cyclists to cycle on 19th century thieves specialising in pedestrian victims? to teach them a lesson like?

tunney · 05-12-2008 9:43am

swingking wrote: »

Few things about "some" cyclists.

1. Please use the cycle lanes when there are cycle lanes available to use. The other day I was driving along and some tosser thinks he would rather cycle on the road even though there was a perfectly good cycle lane beside him AND there was a footpath.

In your opion it was "perfectly good", knowing the state of "cycle lanes" in Dublin it probably went through three bus stops and stop completely in random places. Mostly cycle lanes are dangerous and unsafe to use.

TheIrishGrover · 05-12-2008 9:45am

Deleted User wrote: »

don't see cyclists paying "cycle tax"..

and the point of my post is that it's still dangerous. In europe, they have cycles lanes on footpads in the middle of cities like.. that in my opinion is a much better option.

You provide me with a cycle lane exclusive network that can get me from the front door of my house to anywhere I want in the country, devoid of cars, busses and taxis. Maintain it. Keep it lit and safe and, once again, car free.......... THEN I'll pay a cycle tax.

Noopti · 05-12-2008 10:00am

As far as i'm concerned until the government builds extensive and proper cycle lanes I will never get pissed off or give out to someone cycling on a footpath.

My girlfriend cycles to work, and even though it is mostly through a housing estate and is only 10 minutes away, I always say to her that she should just cycle on the footpath. I have seen how some of the people drive around the estate at crazy speeds and without any consideration for anyone but themselves.

In Amsterdam the cycle lanes are fantastic. In Dublin/Ireland....they are ****e. I would cycle on the road in Dublin, but I wouldn't suggest my fiance does. She is already half scared of cycling after having an accident and fracturing her arm trying to avoid a motorist turning left beside her and not even knowing/not caring that she was there.

hot2def · 05-12-2008 10:09am

Mossy Monk wrote: »

Cyclists are road users too. .

great.

in that case - they need a licencing (sp?) system and a number plate so they as road users can be held accountable for some of the ridiculous and illegal stuff they do.

Doodee · 05-12-2008 10:25am

hot2def wrote: »

great.

in that case - they need a licencing (sp?) system and a number plate so they as road users can be held accountable for some of the ridiculous and illegal stuff they do.

I agree with this in some form.

I have gotten stuck behind a cyclist that was roughly 4-6ft away from the inner footpath and had no care to move in. Who can i complain to about that? It is the same as a car driving in the middle of the road.

Also in the mornings I have seen Cyclists cycle in parallel, 2's and 3's. Simply because they wanted to chat whilst cycling, that is improper use of the road AND cycle-lanes!

Don't get me wrong, I have seen some terrible drivers in this country (unfortunately a large portion are seen when traveling home to the west

) but Cyclist can also be very ignorant and selfish when it comes to road use.

Its a mentality in this country that people are always trying to get one over on us that is resulting in ignorance and selfishness and it really needs to stop!

Thomas_S_Hunterson · 05-12-2008 10:32am

Doodee wrote: »

I agree with this in some form.
I have gotten stuck behind a cyclist that was roughly 4-6ft away from the inner footpath and had no care to move in. Who can i complain to about that? It is the same as a car driving in the middle of the road.

The cyclists is not doing anything wrong. They have every right to cycle within their lane. If you want to overtake, do so as you would any other vehicle on the road.

Often the area at the side of the road is heavily potholed. You wouldn't drive somewhere if you knew it was going to damage your car so why should we cycle in such a way as to damage our bikes.

Doodee wrote: »

Also in the mornings I have seen Cyclists cycle in parallel, 2's and 3's. Simply because they wanted to chat whilst cycling, that is improper use of the road AND cycle-lanes!

Don't get me wrong, I have seen some terrible drivers in this country (unfortunately a large portion are seen when traveling home to the west ) but Cyclist can also be very ignorant and selfish when it comes to road use.

Cycling in 2s is allowed, in fact advisable especially in country roads. It makes them a lot more visible and it means a driver has to think about overtaking them. They're just trying to protect themselves.

Ciaran500 · 05-12-2008 10:34am

Doodee wrote: »

I have gotten stuck behind a cyclist that was roughly 4-6ft away from the inner footpath and had no care to move in. Who can i complain to about that? It is the same as a car driving in the middle of the road.

Also in the mornings I have seen Cyclists cycle in parallel, 2's and 3's. Simply because they wanted to chat whilst cycling, that is improper use of the road AND cycle-lanes!

Normally these things are done on purpose to stop people squeezing by them when overtaking is going to endanger them.

Doodee · 05-12-2008 10:41am

Sean_K wrote: »

The cyclists is not doing anything wrong. They have every right to cycle within their lane. If you want to overtake, do so as you would any other vehicle on the road.

Often the area at the side of the road is heavily potholed. You wouldn't drive somewhere if you knew it was going to damage your car so why should we cycle in such a way as to damage our bikes.

Cycling in 2s is allowed, in fact advisable especially in country roads. It makes them a lot more visible and it means a driver has to think about overtaking them. They're just trying to protect themselves.

I'm afraid i disagree, your saying that its ok for them to use the entire road yet they could easily avoid the potholes etc seeing as how maneuverable they are?
That might be a bit of a perfect world scenario but when this has occured to me there did not appear to be any hazards in the cycle lane.
When learning to drive you are taught to check your blind spots just in-case, I seldom see cyclists do this, instead they just maneuver.

Since most of my driving is in the city of Dublin I fail to see why there is a need to cycle in 2's and 3's when there is a cycle lane provided.

It's all well and good saying that Cars should squeeze past etc yet thats showing ignorance on the cyclists part, since they should respects other road users the same as they wish to be respected themselves.

Gran Hermano · 05-12-2008 10:46am

Whilst there are good cyclists and bad cyclists, just like there are good
motorists and bad motorists, the main difference is bad motorists will
eventually loose their license and get put off the road.

Bad cyclists don't have any real repercussions to fear.
They don't get penalty points.
They don't really have to worry about getting stopped or fined.
They have no registration number so others can identify them.
They have no certification/license to prove they can cycle without
causing danger to other road-users.

Hmmm, maybe the bad cyclists are bad motorists who can no longer drive.

Bring on compulsory testing and registration numbers for cyclists.
Those who are proficient at cycling and obey the laws should have
nothing to worry about.

I'm off to mail my TD. If the Green Party are going to try and increase the
number of cyclists they can at least ensure they are accountable and responsible.

Thomas_S_Hunterson · 05-12-2008 10:46am

Doodee wrote: »

I'm afraid i disagree, your saying that its ok for them to use the entire road yet they could easily avoid the potholes etc seeing as how maneuverable they are?

Frankly I don't trust motorists to leave me enough room to maneuver around pot-holes so I have to make sure I always have enough room.

Doodee wrote: »

When learning to drive you are taught to check your blind spots just in-case, I seldom see cyclists do this, instead they just maneuver.

As a cyclist, you are not enclosed in a big metal box. You develop good peripheral vision and can normally tell where cars are by the sound of them. Most cyclists will still take a look over their shoulder before cornering or changing lane.

Doodee wrote: »

Since most of my driving is in the city of Dublin I fail to see why there is a need to cycle in 2's and 3's when there is a cycle lane provided.

Treat them like you would a slow moving car.

Dragan · 05-12-2008 10:49am

Rabble rabble anyone?

First off, it's not a "drivers" versus "cyclists" debate. Some drivers are bad, some cyclists are bad, that is the real issue here.

I can fully understand why people would be a bit pissed off at a whole group of people based off the behaviour of a small subsection, it happens.

I have been on both sides of the fence, the person in the car dodging the idiot cyclists and the person on the bike who is trying to deal with the traffic.

With regard to cycle paths, in some area's these can often be in pretty bad nick and generally very little though is put into them. There is a large section of the "cycle path" along the N11 into town that you simply could not cycle on if you wish to stay on your bike.

I can also understand why a cyclist might be about 2 foot in from the path, potholes are more common in that area they are avoiding in my experience.

There are no issues in this thread that cannot be covered off by people seem being a bit more concious of each other and agreeing to share the road.

It should be noted that i have been taken out of it TWICE at traffic lights by cyclists who feel they do not need to follow the rules of the road.

I have yet to be hit by a car in this manner, so i can fully understand why people get pissed off at cyclists.

Mr. Presentable · 05-12-2008 10:50am

Sam Vimes wrote: »

you want cyclists to cycle on 19th century thieves specialising in pedestrian victims? to teach them a lesson like?

I've just realised, the OP has a cold!

dade · 05-12-2008 10:51am

One Cold Hand wrote: »

Don't blame the cyclists, the vast majority are safe competent cyclists..

Not in my experience as a driver. every day I see cyclists with high viz jackets covered with backpacks, I see more with no lights than with lights, I see more run red lights than stop for them. I see more fail to signal than signal, I see more weave in and out of traffic than stay in the designated cycle lane when they are present. Now I'm not tarring anyone with the same brush and I admit some cyclists that do behave in a responsible manner on the roads but from my experiences they are few and far between.

One Cold Hand wrote: »

Now that we're in recession we're stuck with shit road and no cycle lane..

Well they've recently taken away a chunk of the Malahide road to put a cycle lane in. Which I think is honestly a waste. See they put the cycle lane in place between the Oscar Traynor road and the Artane roundabout making the Car lane smaller. Even though there are two side roads running parallel to this stretch of road that they could have easily put the cycle lane into and keep the cyclists off the busy stretch of road and maybe make it safer for them.

One Cold Hand wrote: »

Also why should cyclists pay tax? There's no carbon emissions from a bike so their not polluting the atmosphere. And they do basically zero damage to the roads, not like the soccer moms driving their fat SUV's 50 yards down the road to drop their fat kids to school

motor tax had nothing to do with carbon emissions (this is only a recent thing) it was for the use of the road and the maintenance and upkeep of them IIRC. We use the road we pay to maintain it. Seems fair that if a cyclist wants a cycle lane then he/she should contribute to its maintenance and upkeep of it. Likewise if more and more bus lanes are put in place I believe motor tax should drop coz there's less road to be used

mp1972 wrote: »

2. Cycle lanes are lanes on the road like any other. If we are on it, it is NOT OK to turn left and cut us out so we have to jam on our breaks and nearly kill ourselves. .

agreed but if we have our indicator on and are ahead of the cyclist does the driver not have right of way to turn once it is safe to do so? On the same note if we are turning don’t zoom up the inside, cars have blind spots and the driver may not actually be able to see you

mp1972 wrote: »

7. Roads without cycle lanes are usually wide enough for both of us, stop hugging the curb so that we can't get by. Move the f**k over, if we hit your mirror because we can't slow down on time, tough s**t. .

open your eyes, learn to anticipate the danger and you should have no problem seeing the danger before it becomes too late to be able to stop. but if we hit your bike coz we can’t slow down in time tough s**t too

mp1972 wrote: »

11. Most of us try to be as safe as possible, .

Not in my experiences with cyclists. Not saying you are not safe but from my experience most cyclists I have encountered are not

mp1972 wrote: »

You lot REALLY need to learn the rules of the road.
.

Agreed there are a lot of drivers that think Amber means speed up and red means there’s room for three more cars but cyclists also need to realise these things too.

I also acknowledge that a lot of the cycle lanes are poorly thought out making the cyclist mount the footpath and back into the flow of traffic etc. My mother was struck by a bus in Dublin as the cycle lane came from the path onto the road. the blame I believe is two fold in this case firstly she should have looked behind her to ensure it was safe for her to come off the path, but the bus driver should have see her and the fact that the cycle lane had merged with the road.

Deleted User wrote: »

i don't know where this me being a bad driver thing came from.

Probably coz you said you had to dangerously overtake the cyclists. You should never have to do that. Thus if you find yourself constantly “having” to dangerously overtake then you probably are a bad driver because you can’t see that you shouldn’t be overtaking at that point and wait until it is actually safe to overtake.

Doc · 05-12-2008 10:56am

I would like to make the point that a cyclist that cycles like an idiot and hits / is hit by a car will likely be injured or at worst die. The guy in the car won’t, at worst he will have to repair slight damage to his car.

If the guy in the car drives like an idiot and hits a bike he could kill the cyclist easily.

A cyclist that hits a pedestrian would be very unlikely to kill the pedestrian and would more then likely be also injured.

My point is that while cyclist who cycle badly and brake the rules of the road are a danger and a nuisance it is mainly to themselves they are a danger and not to other road users.

Dragan · 05-12-2008 10:59am

dade wrote: »

Not in my experience as a driver.

Thats perspective, as a driver you are watching for the things that might cause an accident and ensuring that you drive safely, i hope.

To change that perspective, as a pedestrian i see plenty of terrible drivers every day. People who change lanes without indicating, come off roundabouts without indicating etc etc.

Ciaran500 · 05-12-2008 10:59am

dade wrote: »

agreed but if we have our indicator on and are ahead of the cyclist does the driver not have right of way to turn once it is safe to do so?

Then it is not safe to do so. If you were turning right and crossing the oncoming lane is it ok to pull out infront of a car cause you got their first?

Gran Hermano · 05-12-2008 11:04am

It's the 99% of all cyclists that act dangerously and recklessly that give the other 1% a bad name.

Doodee · 05-12-2008 11:14am

Doc wrote: »

I would like to make the point that a cyclist that cycles like an idiot and hits / is hit by a car will likely be injured or at worst die. The guy in the car won’t, at worst he will have to repair slight damage to his car.

If the guy in the car drives like an idiot and hits a bike he could kill the cyclist easily.

A cyclist that hits a pedestrian would be very unlikely to kill the pedestrian and would more then likely be also injured.

My point is that while cyclist who cycle badly and brake the rules of the road are a danger and a nuisance it is mainly to themselves they are a danger and not to other road users.

So because they are more vulnerable they are allowed to be ignorant?!?!
That is the exact logic that add to the fire.

I agree that conditions for cyclists in this country are shameful, but instead of blaming all those drivers you should be bringing to the Dail. If there was a curb between the cycle lane as seen in Amsterdam then I'd imagine cyclists would feel safer.

It really is time for people to actually take a stand and be heard by our government rather than arguing in Pubs and on message boards.

DeBeere · 05-12-2008 11:15am

I cant understand the negativity towards the op.

Nearly all the drivers I know have some sort of gripe about cyclists! The cycle lane system is by no means perfect and the op is just suggesting a solution, even if it is a flawed one.

Please stop suggesting he take the Bus,train etc. as a lot of people cant.

Mushy · 05-12-2008 11:22am

Sometimes when walking down to the bus to go to college, I'd be listening to music, and then all of a sudden this kid is right behind me...on the footpath, and cant hear him cos I've music playing. Now I know the road isn't the safest to be cycling(cpountry road), but footpath isn't wide, so I'm pushed out onto the road for him to pass. Might have a word with him sometime:P So thats a pedestrian perspective of why cyclists shouldn't use footpaths.

I remember quite often cycling from UCD to town when I lived there, it'd be dangerous to on the road. Through Donnybrook, the cycle lanes are potholed on the inside of a bus lane, so you'd be forced onto the footpath, with heavy traffic in the lanes that are barely wide enough for bikes, buses and cars. But when no buses there, it meant forcing out a bit. And meant good times in heavy traffic when cars would use the bus lane to skip the traffic, just stay in front of them not allowing them to pass. They get annoyed and even more delayed...teach them a lesson too, despite being dangerous for me.

And before ye car users get on your high horses, I always wore a helmet and always stopped at red lights!!!

Stark · 05-12-2008 11:27am

DeBeere wrote: »

Nearly all the drivers I know have some sort of gripe about cyclists! The cycle lane system is by no means perfect and the op is just suggesting a solution, even if it is a flawed one.

Most kids I know get upset over having to share their toys. Doesn't mean they're in the right.

dade · 05-12-2008 11:32am

Dragan wrote: »

Thats perspective, as a driver you are watching for the things that might cause an accident and ensuring that you drive safely, i hope..

Should a cyclist not also be doing the same?

Dragan wrote: »

i see plenty of terrible drivers every day. People who change lanes without indicating, come off roundabouts without indicating etc etc.

as a driver i see it too and it wrecks my head. I'm know angel on the roads I'm sure and I'm sure i probable fracture the odd rule hear and there, but I always indicate when changing lanes, always check my blind spots and mirrors when changing lanes, always maintain lane discipline, never overtake when it is unsafe, will endeavor to keep the cycle lane free if possible, unfortunately in some situations this is not always possible because the left turning lane and the cycle lane are one etc.

Ciaran500 wrote: »

Then it is not safe to do so. If you were turning right and crossing the oncoming lane is it ok to pull out infront of a car cause you got their first?

Where did you get the notion that i was turning right from? my post was in relation to this comment.

mp1972 wrote:

2. Cycle lanes are lanes on the road like any other. If we are on it, it is NOT OK to turn left and cut us out so we have to jam on our breaks and nearly kill ourselves. .

so I'll ask it again. I am turning left, there is a bike behind me, the cyclist is a good distance behind me and i deem it as safe to turn (safe for me and safe for them) do i have the right of way or should i have to stop for the cyclist and allow them past first?

likewise I'm at a red light and and turning left and am at the light ahead of the cyclist when the light goes green who has right of way? the cyclist that has now come up behind me but is still a distance behind me or me? IMO i have right of way as i would if it was a car behind me. but I'm open to correction coz it's one area i don't recall ever being covered in driving lessons or on the test.

DOC wrote:

cyclist that hits a pedestrian would be very unlikely to kill the pedestrian and would more then likely be also injured

was there not a case over the last year or so where some cyclist was on the footpath and shouted "move or I'll run you over" to a pedestrian and then ended up hitting the pedestrian and causing them sever damage. if memory serves they may have actually killed them.

Doc · 05-12-2008 11:33am

Doodee wrote: »

So because they are more vulnerable they are allowed to be ignorant?!?!
That is the exact logic that add to the fire.

That’s not what I said now is it. I was saying that the consequences of there ignorance are less sever to others and more to themselves as apposed to the consequences of an ignorant driver. I believe that cyclist should obey the rules of the road but that bad cycling has less of an impact on others as bad driving.

Doc · 05-12-2008 11:36am

dade wrote: »

was there not a case over the last year or so where some cyclist was on the footpath and shouted "move or I'll run you over" to a pedestrian and then ended up hitting the pedestrian and causing them sever damage. if memory serves they may have actually killed them.

EDIT

yep here's one http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/cyclist_kills_pedestrian_article_157946.html

That’s fair enough but I don’t think I would have to search hard to find a case for bad driving killing someone. My point was that bad cyclists are far less likely to cause a fatality to anyone (besides themselves) then bad drivers.

Edit: Just read your link and it says this:
"This is only the second incident of a cyclist killing a pedestrian on the pavement since 1999, compared with the 80 pedestrians who are killed each year by motorists."

dade · 05-12-2008 11:38am

Doc wrote: »

That’s fair enough but I don’t think I would have to search hard to find a case for bad driving killing someone. My point was that bad cyclists are far less likely to cause a fatality to anyone (besides themselves) then bad drivers.

true but a quick google will show that it happes more regularly than we would think.

Dragan · 05-12-2008 11:40am

dade wrote: »

Should a cyclist not also be doing the same?

Of course, and i never said they shouldn't. But from the cyclists point of view a bus, car or truck is far more physical threat than another cyclists, so they may be less inclined to spot dangerous behaviour in fellow cyclists.

quad_red · 05-12-2008 11:41am

fletch... wrote: »

But roads are built for cars, cycle lanes for cyclists and fields for horses.
Hows about if i drive my car up the cycle lanes to avoid traffic?

Ive been knocked on my motor bike, had cyclsts damage mirrors ect on my bike and car and they dont bother to stop and apologies or offer to pay for damage so naturally im a bit bitter against them, now if i was to bump into or over a cyclist in my gigantic 4x4 while on a road which is made for cars it would be a different story alltogether.

in other words STAY OUT OF MY WAY!!!!

Laughable. You've never cycled on the quays in Dublin and had incredulous motor cyclists go crazy because a cyclist is blocking their undertaking lane/the cycle lane.

How dare cyclists even step onto the 'road which is made for cars' :rolleyes:

And as both a driver and a cyclist, I think a motor cyclist generally accusing any other group of road users as being discourteous or downright law breaking is hilarious.

Ciaran500 · 05-12-2008 11:46am

dade wrote: »

Where did you get the notion that i was turning right from? my post was in relation to this comment.

Notice the word if at the start of my sentence? I was comparing it to a situation where you were crossing a traffic lane, why should it be any different for a cycle lane.

dade wrote: »

so I'll ask it again. I am turning left, there is a bike behind me, the cyclist is a good distance behind me and i deem it as safe to turn (safe for me and safe for them) do i have the right of way or should i have to stop for the cyclist and allow them past first?

If you have to cause the cyclist to brake so you can cross his lane then you should wait for the cyclist to pass before doing so.

Stark · 05-12-2008 11:56am

fletch... wrote: »

But roads are built for cars, cycle lanes for cyclists and fields for horses.
Hows about if i drive my car up the cycle lanes to avoid traffic?

Ive been knocked on my motor bike...

Well you shouldn't have been driving your motorbike on a road that was built for cars, should you?

Terry · 05-12-2008 12:06pm

I got to half way through page 2 and came to the conclusion that this is, without a shadow of a doubt, the most retarded thread to ever appear in After Hours.

dade · 05-12-2008 12:07pm

Dragan wrote: »

so they may be less inclined to spot dangerous behaviour in fellow cyclists.

ok i see where you're coming from

Ciaran500 wrote: »

I was comparing it to a situation where you were crossing a traffic lane, why should it be any different for a cycle lane..

because in general the vehicle in front of you if in your lane has the right of way. so if the left lane and the cycle lane are one as it is in a lot of cases when the car wants to turn should the cyclist not yield to the car that is turning?

it goes without saying that the lane you are crossing has right of way unless this right of way has been removed in some way. or at least it should but teh way some people pull out i may be wrong

Ciaran500 wrote: »

If you have to cause the cyclist to brake so you can cross his lane then you should wait for the cyclist to pass before doing so.

right so I am right in thinking that if the cyclist is a distance behind me and i deem it safe for both parties then i can make the left turn.

RoosterIllusion · 05-12-2008 12:11pm

I was told by three separate Gardaí to get off the footpath and use the road. That varies between the city centre and the suburbs.

I doubt there's enough cyclists out there to annoy you enough to have a problem with this. try cycling, you'll see that cycling on the footpath is, for the most part, far better than cycling on the road but the law is the law and the road is for them too.

Ciaran500 · 05-12-2008 12:11pm

dade wrote: »

because in general the vehicle in front of you if in your lane has the right of way. so if the left lane and the cycle lane are one as it is in a lot of cases when the car wants to turn should the cyclist not yield to the car that is turning?

it goes without saying that the lane you are crossing has right of way unless this right of way has been removed in some way. or at least it should but teh way some people pull out i may be wrong

But isn't the cycle lane the left most lane so you should be giving right of way.

dade wrote: »

right so I am right in thinking that if the cyclist is a distance behind me and i deem it safe for both parties then i can make the left turn.

Of course, but the original post was complaining about the very common scenario were a motorists goes past a cyclist then takes a left turn, cutting the cyclist up.

Cyclists, Go use the footpad.

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