buy irish..employ irish

O'Morris · 04-12-2008 10:35AM

Fratton Fred wrote:

I don't think Ireland did have a choice in reality.

Of course we had a choice. Every other country had a choice, including those countries like Spain and Portugal who have benefited as much from EU membership as we have. Most countries (including Spain and Portugal) sensibly restricted access to Eastern European workers at the time of EU enlargement because they knew the consequences of allowing unrestricted access to millions of people from countries where the average is only a fraction of the EU average. We had a choice as well when we restricted access to the Romanians and the Bulgarians a year or two later. Could you imagine how much more difficult things would be now if we given the Bulgarians and Romanians unrestricted access as well?

Fratton Fred wrote:

Ireland was qui9te happy to take the EU's money, I would be very surprised if that didn't come with strings attached.

Would those be different strings than the ones that were attached to the money that the Spanish and the Portuguese received?

Fratton Fred wrote:

It would have also created a massive skills shortage in this country.

If this country had a massive skills shortage then we could have had a liberal work permit system that would have allowed people in Eastern Europe to apply for a vacancy in this country that could not have been filled from the available pool of labour in this country. If we had done that we would have had an immigration system that really was tied to the needs of the economy. When we allowed unrestricted access to the Eastern Europeans we had a system that was tied to the immigrants needs, not our needs. Any Pole or other Eastern European could move here whether there was a need for their skills or not. The economy was able to absorb it at the time because we were in the middle of a construction boom and consumer binge. Now that we're in a recession though and as the long-term expectations for the economy are for modest growth, we're going to find it much more difficult to utilise that surplus labour. The people who will lose out will be the low-wage workers in the country who will have to compete with all the cheap foreign labour. People like David McWilliams have been warning about this for years but nobody took any heed.

Mr.Micro wrote:

Where would Ireland be now if that happened? Nowhere, a third world country on the periphery of Europe.

What are you talking about? Are you saying Ireland would a third world country on the periphery of Europe if we hadn't allowed unrestricted access to workers from Eastern Europe?

gandalf · 04-12-2008 10:46AM

Acacia wrote: »

Why would Irish people be going to Poland to seek work? Surely we would go to the more 'traditional' countries like the U.S. and Australia?

Traditional Countries? Why wouldn't they go and work in Poland. If there is a need for workers the Irish have never been shy or retiring. Sure in the 80's and early 90's an awful lot of Irish worked in construction in Germany.

Let's not forget the legions that went to the UK over the years and if you are looking for work in the construction industry then you'll probably be working in the UK on the Olympic project in London.

We're in the EU, we accepted all the help and positives of that. On the flipside we have to accept that there is freedom of movement for citizens of the EU and ergo freedom of employment. If there are workers as I feel is suggested in this thread who are being employed under the legal wage limit then the employers need to be reported. Nothing will change if you just whinge on an internet forum.

--amadeus-- · 04-12-2008 10:51AM

Ireland has benifited more from the freedoms of the EU than probably any other country. It's a nonsense to think though that it could be all take and no give. And during the boom most people had little or no problem with having a Polish waitress or an eastern european cleaner. Now that times are a bit tighter attitudes seem to be changing. "Irish jobs for Irish people" - quite apart from the unpleasent echo of "No Dogs / No Blacks / No Irish" it really misses teh point pretty spectacularly.

What you are discussing here is a migrant workforce. By definition a migrant workforce is one that moves from location to location to work. The Poles (for example) came here because there was plentiful work, easily found and at a decent (by thier local standards) wage. Now that work has dried up do you really think that a migrant worker is going to sit on his bum and draw the dole?

Of course not! If he/she had the gumption to get off thier backsides, leave hearth and home and go to a country where they didn't speak the language so they could find a good job then they are hardly going to stick around attempting to live off benifits! I hate to break it to you but Ireland has lousy weather and is phenominally expensive. If you aren't earning there isn't much to keep you here so you'll up sticks and go to the next place that has a decent job offer.

Additionally if there are foreign workers still onsite and Irish workers have been laid off from teh same site you have to face an akward question. Why were they kept on (by an Irish employer) when Irish people weren't? Maybe they were better at thier job?

You can't have the advantages of an open economy without the drawbacks, it's a competitive world out there and if you can't cut it without state assistance (in teh form of protected jobs) then you need to re-train or re-think (or move to another country!)

O'Morris · 04-12-2008 10:54AM

gandalf wrote:

Traditional Countries? Why wouldn't they go and work in Poland.

Because the average wage in Poland is much lower than it is in Ireland.

gandalf wrote:

We're in the EU, we accepted all the help and positives of that. On the flipside we have to accept that their is freedom of movement for citizens of the EU and ergo freedom of employment.

I thought you were about to say "On the flipside we have to accept the negatives".

gandalf · 04-12-2008 10:56AM

O'Morris wrote: »

Because the average wage in Poland is much lower than it is in Ireland.

Is it higher than the dole?

I thought you were about to say "On the flipside we have to accept the negatives".

Well you were mistaken.

O'Morris · 04-12-2008 11:31AM

--amadeus-- wrote:

Now that work has dried up do you really think that a migrant worker is going to sit on his bum and draw the dole?

There is some evidence that large numbers of immigrants are deciding to stay on the dole in this country. According to this article, of the 38,500 foreign nationals on the dole in July of this year, 15,000 are from the 10 accession countries that joined the EU in 2004, and 10,000 are from other overseas countries. Those figures are from July, I don't know what the current figures are.

ntlbell · 04-12-2008 11:36AM

micmclo wrote: »

I've worked in a small hotel of 19 staff.
Only 3 of us were Irish. And when you have guests commenting on it, you know you have a problem.

Yes, you know you have rude and ignorant guests.

No other problem tho

jmayo · 04-12-2008 11:44AM

Acacia wrote: »

Why would Irish people be going to Poland to seek work? Surely we would go to the more 'traditional' countries like the U.S. and Australia?

As for the rest of your post, I would largely agree with the sentiment behind it. However, I think the OP has the right to ask the question without the old Nazi/ racism card thrown about. It adds nothing to the discussion, imo.

Have you seen the state the US is in, they ain't going to be handing out massive amoutns of green cards and illegals are not as tolerated these days ?
Have you seen the state the UK is in ?
The only thing they have going for them is the Olympics.

Australia, particularly WA has been booming but a lot of that is down to China and it's thirst for resources. WA agricultural economy is on the rocks due to drought so all they have is their mines.
With a slow down in China due to decrease in Western states buying their goods, how will Australia manage ?

So maybe the countries offering us jobs in the future will be in Central and Eastern Europe.

I would say the probable reason that the OP was labelled a Nazi is because his statement "jobs just for the Irish" and dump out the foreign workers would come straight from a National Front type of party. Like it or not these typeof parties would be termed NAZIs or at least they are sympathetic to some of the goals of the Nazis.

whitser wrote: »

look i've worked with lads on site from all over the place. most were good genuine workers. in fact with an old boss i actually helped them to get paid properly cos the dirt bag i used to work for was paying them below the trade rate. so i have no problem with foreign workers. but when most of my friends are out of work now or will be at xmass,probably myself included, its hard to see why any jobs that are still on sites are filled by foreign workers.
i can only speak from personnal experience in the construction industry,but most poles are here in the short term so wouldnt it help our economy to make sure men with mortgages and long term ties to the country are in work.

Whitser you cannot have a system where you turf out foreign workers when things slow down and give the jobs to locals only.
For a start that is protectionism and EU will not allow it.
Secondly what happens down the road if the UK do it and send home the Irish working there. British workers used not like "the Paddies" coming over taking their jobs either. We Irish have always been emigrants and some were short termers, including my own family members, doing the exact same thing as the Poles or Czechs.

I know from experience and friends' experience that they got better deals and it appears better quality work from some of your foreign colleagues.
Lastly the foreign worker may be willing to work for less, because they are living way cheaper than their Irish competitors.
Sadly some scum employers use this and affectively treat the foreign workers about as good as slaves. They know they get away with it with foreign workers which they couldn't with locals.

BTW from experience I know what it is like to be laid off at Christmas.
I was made redundant the day people finished for Christmas. Not nice when the company next door is going out to pub to celebrate Christmas and you know you have no job to come back to.

gandalf · 04-12-2008 11:46AM

You only can get the dole if you have been employed for 2 years and paid PRSI. If people are claiming the full dole then they have worked within the requirements and are entitled to it.

Surely you are not suggesting that benefits are with held from people who have worked and built up the necessary points ?

whitser · 04-12-2008 11:50AM

who said turf anyone out? but if the government is calling on workers to be patriotic and shop at home then they should call on greedy employers, especially builders to be patriotic and make sure any jobs that are going are filled by irish men who are here to stay not economic migrant workers. does that make me a nazi???

Mena · 04-12-2008 11:53AM

whitser wrote: »

if its unpatriotic to shop across the border??then surley its unpatriotic to employ a foreign worker whos sending home most of their wages back home rather then spending it here, when theres plenty of irish men/women struggling to survive on the dole.
please no more silly nazi remarks.

That's a gross generalisation. I've never sent a a cent back to my country of birth.

jmayo wrote: »

There would be no silly Nazi remarks if you didn't try and drag "jobs for the Irish only" remark into all this in the first place.

Foreign workers are here because there were lots of jobs Irish people would not do, either becuase of what the jobs were or how much the pay was.

Another gross generalisation. Some of us are here earning in excess of a 6 figure salary.

brianthebard · 04-12-2008 11:54AM

gandalf wrote: »

Is it higher than the dole?

No. A girl in my course was a secondary school teacher making 200 a month.

whitser · 04-12-2008 11:55AM

i know we irish did the same all over the world. i worked away myself. but when your staring down the barrell of a p45 and any work still out there seems to be filled by migrant workers its hard to be objective.

gandalf · 04-12-2008 11:56AM

whitser wrote: »

who said turf anyone out? but if the government is calling on workers to be patriotic and shop at home then they should call on greedy employers, especially builders to be patriotic and make sure any jobs that are going are filled by irish men who are here to stay not economic migrant workers. does that make me a nazi???

Firstly the government can ask all they like but from a poll yesterday it looks like 89% of people are ignoring that "patriotic" call of theirs.

As for builders being forced to hire only Irish workers that's a non runner as its illegal under EU law.

With regard to the nazi jibe tbh I would ignore it. Its lazy debating to call someone a nazi. I'd suggest you are misguided in your plea and that's all. I understand it but I don't agree with it.

--amadeus-- · 04-12-2008 11:58AM

O'Morris wrote: »

There is some evidence that large numbers of immigrants are deciding to stay on the dole in this country. According to this article, of the 38,500 foreign nationals on the dole in July of this year, 15,000 are from the 10 accession countries that joined the EU in 2004, and 10,000 are from other overseas countries. Those figures are from July, I don't know what the current figures are.

From your linked article:

“These figures indicate the downturn in the construction industry has disproportionately affected migrant workers because they have experienced almost a 100% increase in their unemployment levels, or a three-fold increase in the case of those from the new EU states,” said Conor Lenihan, the integration minister.

“For the best past of 10 years now, immigrants have not featured at all on the live register.”

Lenihan said the live register figure underestimated the number of immigrants hit by the downturn. Many had already returned home, while others could not claim welfare in Ireland because they had not been working here for the minimum requirement of two years

Not sure how that knocks back my point?

And OP - businesses will do what they have to do to survive. If I have a choice between releasing a very good worker or a good worker I release teh good one and nationality is not a factor in teh decision. Any business making employment decisions based on nationality is not only acting illegally but going against common sense and best practice. they'll end up going bust and then everyone is out of a job, with all of teh economic knock ons that implies.

whitser · 04-12-2008 12:02PM

no one can force anyone to employ irish people. what im saying is should there be an attitude where by if there's a job available i'll give it to an irish man if i can.
my mate got laid off last week. there's still migrant workers in that job. how do you think he feels? this lad is a good trades man.

Permabear · 04-12-2008 12:08PM

This post has been deleted.

Mena · 04-12-2008 12:08PM

whitser wrote: »

no one can force anyone to employ irish people. what im saying is should there be an attitude where by if there's a job available i'll give it to an irish man if i can.
my mate got laid off last week. there's still migrant workers in that job. how do you think he feels? this lad is a good trades man.

Were they all doing the exact same job? Had they all been there an equal length of time?

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Not so much in the context of non-EU nationals however. It's directly stated that Irish, then EU nationals will be favoured for roles.

jmayo · 04-12-2008 12:09PM

Mena wrote: »

That's a gross generalisation. I've never sent a a cent back to my country of birth.

Another gross generalisation. Some of us are here earning in excess of a 6 figure salary.

Yes I know, since I work in an industry that has been employing highly skilled foreign workers for the last 10 years.
Long before the great retail or housing booms took off and brought the vast majority of foreign workers to the country.

oscarBravo · 04-12-2008 12:13PM

whitser wrote: »

no one can force anyone to employ irish people. what im saying is should there be an attitude where by if there's a job available i'll give it to an irish man if i can.

...and Irish retailers feel that there should be an attitude whereby if I can buy something south of the border, I shouldn't go north for it. Great in theory, but ignores the economics of the situation.

Economic downturn or not, I'm in the same place I was a year ago: I'll give a job to the person best able to do it, and I don't care where they're from.

whitser · 04-12-2008 12:20PM

Mena wrote: »

Were they all doing the exact same job? Had they all been there an equal length of time?

Not so much in the context of non-EU nationals however. It's directly stated that Irish, then EU nationals will be favoured for roles.

basically bosses want men who can work every hour that they want. a migrant worker whos family is back home can work 16 hr days 7 days a week if he wants but a family man living here cant. also i think employers will take advantage of migrant workers easier then irish because they dont always know their rights etc...

Permabear · 04-12-2008 12:22PM

This post has been deleted.

O'Morris · 04-12-2008 12:23PM

--amadeus-- wrote:

Not sure how that knocks back my point?

You suggested that now that the work has dried up that immigrants are not likely to stick around and draw the dole. The fact that there are at least 15,000 Eastern Europeans on the dole would seem to show that many immigrants are deciding to stick around and draw the dole.

whitser · 04-12-2008 12:23PM

oscarBravo wrote: »

...and Irish retailers feel that there should be an attitude whereby if I can buy something south of the border, I shouldn't go north for it. Great in theory, but ignores the economics of the situation.

Economic downturn or not, I'm in the same place I was a year ago: I'll give a job to the person best able to do it, and I don't care where they're from.

plenty of good irish trades men now on the dole. i would say most of the workers actually on site now are migrant workers. now they are not all better workers then the irish, so why is that?
because employers,especially builders can take advantage of migrant workers.
thats why i asked shouldnt the government say look we need to look after our own,who are here to stay,not workers who will be off as soon as they get work else where.

gandalf · 04-12-2008 12:34PM

whitser wrote: »

basically bosses want men who can work every hour that they want. a migrant worker whos family is back home can work 16 hr days 7 days a week if he wants but a family man living here cant. also i think employers will take advantage of migrant workers easier then irish because they dont always know their rights etc...

Well that as far as I am aware is illegal. Have you or any of the others reported these employers.

The relevant legislation is "THE ORGANISATION OF WORKING TIME ACT, 1997" and it clearly states "The new maximum average working week is 48 hours. Averaging may be balanced out over a 4, 6 or 12 month period depending on the circumstances"

Here's the relevant bit if they are breach of these.

Penalties
A person found guilty of offences relating to failure to keep records, double employment, obstruction of inspectors or non-compliance with regulations on outworkers may face fines of up to £1,500 and an extra £500 a day for a continuing offence.
Employers may face compensation claims for amounts up to 2 years of an employee’s salary for breaches of other provisions of the Act. Such amounts may be determined by the Rights Commissioner and the Labour Court.

Complaints
If you have a complaint about any breaches of the Act or collective agreements made under the Act, you may contact a Rights Commissioner, Tom Johnson House, Haddington Road, Dublin 4, tel: 01 660 9662.

Original document is here http://www.entemp.ie/publications/employment/1997/workinghours.doc

More info http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/employment/employment-rights-and-conditions/hours-of-work/working_week

oscarBravo · 04-12-2008 12:35PM

whitser wrote: »

plenty of good irish trades men now on the dole. i would say most of the workers actually on site now are migrant workers. now they are not all better workers then the irish, so why is that?
because employers,especially builders can take advantage of migrant workers.

You're talking about different things. You're suggesting that the government should tell us that we should employ Irish people as a moral imperative, while simultaneously telling us that employers are exploiting migrant workers in contravention of labour laws.

If an employer is prepared to break the law, why the hell would he listen to the government telling him he has a moral imperative?

If you feel that the problem is employers exploiting migrant workers to the disadvantage of Irish workers, report those employers to the relevant authorities.

whitser · 04-12-2008 12:40PM

all the employer has to say is there's no work, end of. i would think most people on here talking about illegal this and that and talikng against my post have no experience of what the contruction industry has become.
about 5 yrs ago i had a debate with a lad on site about migrant workers. i was saying we need them and they good workers etc...he said as soon as things go slack its them who'll bee kept on not irish men. nonsense i said. he was right. there's a lot of working class trades men now struggling to get by on the dole and when they see a site still going and every man on it is a migrant worker ,they are going to wonder what the fcuk?

gandalf · 04-12-2008 12:51PM

whitser wrote: »

all the employer has to say is there's no work, end of. i would think most people on here talking about illegal this and that and talikng against my post have no experience of what the contruction industry has become.
about 5 yrs ago i had a debate with a lad on site about migrant workers. i was saying we need them and they good workers etc...he said as soon as things go slack its them who'll bee kept on not irish men. nonsense i said. he was right. there's a lot of working class trades men now struggling to get by on the dole and when they see a site still going and every man on it is a migrant worker ,they are going to wonder what the fcuk?

I'm sorry but you are the one saying Migrant workers are working 7 days a week 16 hours a day. If this is true then you need to report it. If you don't then it is your fault and the fault of others in your situation that nothing happens because of it.

Any sites that are still going around me have Irish workers on them so it is a blatant untruth that EVERY site has only migrant workers on it.

Acacia · 04-12-2008 12:53PM

jmayo wrote: »

Have you seen the state the US is in, they ain't going to be handing out massive amoutns of green cards and illegals are not as tolerated these days ?
Have you seen the state the UK is in ?
The only thing they have going for them is the Olympics.

Australia, particularly WA has been booming but a lot of that is down to China and it's thirst for resources. WA agricultural economy is on the rocks due to drought so all they have is their mines.
With a slow down in China due to decrease in Western states buying their goods, how will Australia manage ?

So maybe the countries offering us jobs in the future will be in Central and Eastern Europe.

That's fair enough. The reason I asked is I haven't heard of a lot of Irish people going to central Europe as of yet, they still seem to be going to the U.S. and Australia . I guess that could change in the future though.

NOGMaxpower · 04-12-2008 12:59PM

whitser wrote: »

the powers that be are telling everyone to be patriotic and buy irish. maybe then they can also call on employers to only employ irish. the party's over now and its time we started to look after our own. there's plenty of good irish workers out there looking for work.

Sorry to say this but since we're a member state of the EU and we've all voted on EU policy this can never be done as it will discriminate against our fellow Europeans.

I can understand your point though retaining jobs for Irish people first is a nice ideal to have. But in practice it would never work as it would create a sepratist workforce. Who's to say Jimmy from cork should get a job over Akmed when Akmed is clearly more qualified for the job. NOT GOING HAPPEN AND SHOULDN'T HAPPEN IMO.

Look whats happend up North 15 years ago where Protestants got jobs ahead of Catholics based on their religous beliefs and not on their skills.

buy irish..employ irish

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