[3 appointed preferred bidder in NBS] The Country Is F***ed , Lets Emigrate Now

Sponge Bob wrote: »

DCENR decided that 3 is to get the NBS

My god what drugs do these people in the DCENR take? How can a feeble HSDPA system ever be mistaken for broadband?
Even eircom (god bless 'em) came in with a more realistic offer than 3.
Nobody else was interested as far as I could see.

The 3 backhaul is atrocious and this is where the investment needs to be made.
We as a nation need FTTx not some half baked solution that only works when it isn't raining.

So it looks like we shall fall behind the third world yet again.

Just changed the title so we don't have multiple threads on the same topic.

I share Watty's concerns of the ability of 3 to deliver anything near a broadband experience, let alone to NBS spec.

From DCENR:

The final product that consumers will receive from the NBS will be an always on service of at least 1Mbit/s down and 128kbits/s up. The minimum download capacity per connection will be 10 gigabits per month and the service must support Virtual Private Networks (VPN) for businesses and VoIP applications and devices for home business purposes. Latency must be sufficient in order to allow standard applications such as VoIP and online gaming to be run without significant degradation of service from an end user perspective.

I know of very few people who can get a sustained 1Mbit download speed on 3G technologies (and Three Ireland have a long-established, well-publicised poor 3G data offering). I know even less that have it, in rural areas (because of distance and sector contention).

Ignore the speed for a second, there is no way that decent VoIP is possible on any 3G network in Ireland. Yes, you can be lucky (in off-peak times) to get a call through, but it is rarely of decent quality. Reliable it is not. The ping times on every 3G network (in ideal circumstances, let alone in real world, heavily-contended networks) prohibits online gaming of any sort (even online poker!). VPNs will constantly disconnect, as will the "kinda VPN" technologies like SSH, VNC, etc.

So, maybe 3 aren't going to use 3G? Maybe they will have especially small sectors for pockets that require servicing? Maybe they'll prioritise NBS customers' data?

All very well and good if they do, but right now it looks like DCENR have allowed the specs above to be completely ignored and have handed the preferred status to a bidder who has very little positive experience in the field.

Interesting to see if those currently with lousy broadband providers will be allowed opt into the scheme and demand satellite.

clohamon wrote: »

Interesting to see if those currently with lousy broadband providers will be allowed opt into the scheme and demand satellite.

No they can't
Even some with no BB can't get it. Only those on the white bits of "no coverage" part of map can get the scheme.

I'd imagine you only get satellite if it's a place where "3" don't plan a mast. If a mast is Planned as part of roll out service, you get nothing till the mast arrives. Then maybe if no signal you can get Satellite.

It's an 18month (maybe 2 or 3 years) rollout process.

damien wrote: »

I don't get you lot at all, you'd be just as bad if not worse if eircom got it.

This may well be true but the choices were awful. I too can see the outcry
if eircom did get it. But a spade is still a spade.

Even eircoms offering was better than the proposed solution from DECNR.
Ryan has simply abandoned rural Ireland to an HSPDA solution which is far from promoting high speed and innovation, it is restrictive and slow speed.

Surely the point of IoffL was always the best broadband for all?

"IrelandOffline is a voluntary organisation consisting of home and business
Internet users unhappy with currently available Internet connectivity products and services. Its brief is to campaign for the development of flat-rate and high-speed Internet access services and to promote innovation and competition in the Irish Internet marketplace. "


Not some half baked solution that will just make people fed up...
More typical green nonsense.

Give 3 a chance, how long have eircom being delivering broadband and it's been an overpriced disaster...and they could be up for sale again very shortly not really a company a smart man would invest in at the moment....

BT assist 3 with their network roll out so it's not a complete disaster for them either.....

watty wrote: »

It's not a question of good or bad "3" is or how well the network is rolled out. The Technology simply isn't Broadband.

If the average user can get a good reliable 1mb it will be ample for most people...
It is broadband, mabe not good as a nailed up connection but still good compared to dial up which most rural people are saddled with....

3 came along and gave the market a good shake, give them a little credit, remember what voda and 02 used to charge for mobile internet.....

drunkmonkey wrote: »

If the average user can get a good reliable 1mb it will be ample for most people...

Agreed. For now at least, but perhaps not for too long.

drunkmonkey wrote: »

It is broadband

Debatable. Certainly the bigger standards bodies explicitly exclude 3G from their definition/interpretation, and Irish regulators seem to be one of the few that include it in their reporting.

drunkmonkey wrote: »

but still good compared to dial up which most rural people are saddled with....

Not always but, yes, agreed. However forming a subsidised national scheme based on that is probably a waste of money.

drunkmonkey wrote: »

3 came along and gave the market a good shake, give them a little credit, remember what voda and 02 used to charge for mobile internet.....

Rubbish. They saw an oppertunity to tap in to the highest ARPU figures in Europe, in a market with little competition, and less regulation. They didn't shake anything up, even with their ever-changing launching offers. There was no mass migration. They might be cheaper for some users (they're a lot dearer for others), but shaking any market; they certainly didn't.

bealtine wrote: »

The technology simply can't deliver as per the specifications laid down by Dept.
This is fact so unless 3 can change the laws of physics they can't possibly deliver. What recourse will consumers have I wonder when all they get are dialup speeds?
Have you ever tried to ring 3's "customer" service for instance?

I can just visualise the conversations now...
"dublin is that somewhere in Ireland?"

The technolgy can deliver. The dial up speeds shoud hopefully more or less vanish over the next few months. 3 are currently in the process of replacing there entire network after only 3 years. 7.2mb shoud be switched on mid december, hopefully giving everyone a decent connection...

I deal with customer service every day, there not as stupid as you think....they are not the only company in Ireland to use foreign support...

Who would you have awarded the contract to, ICE, Eircom, Digiweb, Smart?
3 have the best option at the moment...only because there is no real competition to get this thing done quickly...

drunkmonkey wrote: »

The technolgy can deliver. The dial up speeds shoud hopefully more or less vanish over the next few months. 3 are currently in the process of replacing there entire network after only 3 years. 7.2mb shoud be switched on mid december, hopefully giving everyone a decent connection...

Explain this "new" technology to us please?

watty wrote: »

Not for the 90% of people that want a fixed broadband connection. It's a technology designed for MOBILE USE.

Here's 3 at home now...



and here's BT 3mb at home right now



there's not much of a difference, both are good...but 3 should be quicker when the upgrade is complere...

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Here's 3 at home now...



and here's BT 3mb at home right now



there's not much of a difference, both are good...but 3 should be quicker when the upgrade is complere...

You obviously don't get CDMA contention.

Your speed test shows that less than 4 people are concurrently using your mast sector. That's not realistic. Also it shows you have a good signal. Even Ripwave (s-CDMA) is nearly reasonable if there are only 4 modems switched on on the mast (though it's maximum speed is about 1/8th of HSDPA).

The ping actually is suspiciously low making the reliability of the test suspect, but at that it's too high.

The 3.6Mbps to 7.2Mbps upgrade will not give most users more speed. The main reason 3G operators are doing it is that it doubles the capacity of the Mast sector allowing up to about 50 connections rather than 25.

This is NOT 50:1 contention. A Proper Broadband system has X Mbits / sec capacity and limits packages to Y Mbits/s for Z Users. Z is typically 3 to 20 times the contention ratio which is:
T = Data needed for 1:1 Contention = Sum(Y package speeds by Z users)

Contention = 1: (T/X)

With a mobile system like HSDPA we have several problems with this:

• The number of possible connections is = typical contention ratio.
• The number of users needing the sector can't be controlled.
• The number of users and data capacity of a Sector is too small for statistical averaging of contention.
• Unlike real broadband there is a small number of connections possible compared with user base. Real broadband will slow to contention ratio if all 200 or 1000 people per data resource connect. None are refused connection.
• There is no "package speed". Speed is erratic as a user can get up to the full capacity of sector.

So even with 7.2Mbps HSDPA there is no meaningful contention ratio as the actual possible number of connections is similar to Contention of real Broadband.

Other problems:

• The Lack of a package speed makes ping erratic and thus jitter huge, killing VOIP, Faxing, Video Streaming and Gaming.
• The nature of W-CDMA means that over 1/2 the data speed is lost at full capacity, ie the effective sector capacity of 7.2Mbps drops to under 3Mbps as more users are connected.
• The Mobile nature means that you get about 1/2 to 1/4 speed for 70% of cell area. Only the inner 25% of users get full speed.
• The cell shrinks dropping users nearer the edge as users added to it or even the neighbouring sector or cell on occasion.

It is a MOBILE technology designed for short term connections of browsing and email like you would do on a phone, mobile in use. It's inherently inappropriate for Fixed or Nomadic PC /Laptop users.

brim4brim wrote: »

By any chance do you work for 3? Most of your recent posts are showing this speed test or talking up 3 in complete contrast to the megathread about them.

Maybe your not but you wouldn't be the first employee from them to post here.

No I don't work for 3, I supply broadband from a host of providers to rural communities and 3 is the clear favourite due to cost, portability and ease of use. 3 have had there problems i'm not denying that but this move will be a positive step forward for their network, 3 would have had a very decent phone network by now only for the uptake of mobile broadband which screwed up everything.
There due a break, i'm really tired of this constant 3 bashing, it's not fair, they have helped more consumers in Rural areas in one year than Eircom has done in 30......

The 3 solution isn't for the boys in d4 to play their xbox games on, it's there to provide acces to people who can't get it by any other means. It no substitue for a wired connection but these people in the sticks can't wait any longer for Eircom to get the finger out....

Do you honestly think i'm making up these speedtest results?

It's averaging anywhere between 1.5 and 2.5mb

Are they on the very edge of signal?, When was the last time you ran a speed test on 3? Could you do one for me now?

brim4brim wrote: »

My parents and brother were/are on 1-2 bar signal.

My brothers girlfriend I'm not too sure about but she is in Clara town so I can't imagine she'd have that poor a signal.

I'm in Dublin and don't use 3 so can't do a speedtest.

So what your saying is, your partents and brother currently don't have it, you don't have it either but your brothers girlfriend has it in clare but you've no idea what speed she's getting...
Don't think you've any justification in 3 bashing as your not even a current customer...

I'm on a network with heavy voice and data traffic, it's now peak time all the kids are home from school...

Not great but it's still a big jump from a few months ago...

brim4brim wrote: »

I work for a website and we ran into massive problems with their half-arsed shared IP policy too and the users themselves had to suffer with it when they tried to use Google and were being told their IP was showing irregular activity :rolleyes:

This explains why slashdot has banned my IP when I try to access the site from my 3G phone. ffs!

drunkmonkey wrote: »

i'd call 100,000 + broadband users a bit of a migration..

Me too, but that's not the point I was addressing.

You're sentiment that 3 is better than nothing is entirely correct, and they have and will continue to get people connected that had no choice up until then. However, if they are to use HSDPA for the NBS, it is a technology that will not scale well especially in rural areas. The upgrade in speed will certainly help (assuming it's matched with backhaul, which is not a given), but that upgrade, as Watty has explained, will still be subjected to the non-linear contention (i.e. users won't see twice the speed because of this upgrade).

You're right that a lot of people are happy with the speeds, and it's fine for a lot of people. My main issue is that unless 3 introduce a new technology (which is still possible), they will not be able to meet the current spec of supporting VoIP and online gaming (unless Hearts over the network comes back in fashion).

The 3-bashing as you call it is justified based on the number of complaints on this forum alone, for their poor customer service and network/topology practices. In the absence of ANY indication that 3 won't use 3G, we can express great concern over the aforementioned limitations of 3G. Neither, in my opinion, take away from the fact that 3 have been an asset, and will continue to be, in getting people online.

crawler wrote: »

I wonder has the game been fully played yet - Can't see eircom just accepting it. I think Rex might be best avoided today

Well, given the rumoured price difference, the rumoured reluctance of eircom to use it's wealthy FWA spectrum and the insiginificance of DSL in these areas (without major lines investment), I can't see why either side would bother?

Blaster99 wrote: »

do we know for a fact that 3 is planning to use HSDPA for their service?

No, nor do we have ANY indication that they won't. Should we just say nothing at all until all the facts are revealed next year? If so, perhaps we should also stay silent on LLU, given the ongoing processes there, and many other topics aside. Wild speculation is pointless, but I think it's reasonable to have opinion about a national strategy that looks like is fundamentally flawed be aired now, before it's too late.

brim4brim wrote: »

The only good that can come of this is people leaving eircom dial up for 3 which will give eircom an incentive to upgrade those exchanges

I don't see the incentive? If they upgrade the exchanges serving this mythical 10%, they'll need to heavily invest in the copper to be even in a position to get people connected. Even then, they'll be in a subsidised market, per se, with a small catchment area, and an established brand to compete against. Tough going. It's probably why they haven't done anywhere else rural (being served by 3G providers).

oscarBravo wrote: »

What else would they use?

Good question. Some nomadic or FWA? Using their masts as part of that network, but breaking out to local FWA? NLOS/nomadic/some-half-arsed-WiMax implementation would deliver an altogether more manageable product that would be a much better experience than 3G, without hammering valuable sector space. It might be a stretch of my imagination, but it's not impossible, and wouldn't be a heap more expensive than adding more sectors/backhaul (assuming that 3 would at least do that!) in the affected areas. Speculation, of course!

oscarBravo wrote: »

Mast infrastructure isn't an issue; spectrum is. WiMAX in this country pretty much means 3.5GHz. ComReg have reserved 10MHz of 3.5GHz spectrum for the winner of the NBS in case they want it, but 10MHz isn't much.

They could use one of the LTE alternatives (but I don't see that happening any decade soon)