[3 appointed preferred bidder in NBS] The Country Is F***ed , Lets Emigrate Now

Sponge Bob

DCENR decided that 3 is to get the NBS

mumhaabu

I heard sales of brown envelopes were up recently alright. Still lol at €irscum though.

Sponge Bob

Agreed on the LOL but the only criteria where 3 scored higher than eircom was on price .

I bet they recently reweighed the scoring process so that the price component accounted for about 75% of the marks instead of 30%-40% as intended

I also bet that BT ( an early bidder) are still on the floor in shock .

.

watty

I can't see how it meets the specs.

2.1GHz HSDPA is terrible for Rural. With 10 users at rural distances it will be 150kbps per sector and 150ms to 1000ms latency. At urban distances with 7.2Mbps you can only support 48 connections on a sector and it drops to under 200kbs and latency rises from 120ms to over 800ms.

This isn't a solution at all.


But it was drawn up so badly that major players didn't see the value even of tendering. They should have been subsidising roll out of backhaul and lastmile of real Broadband solutions. HSDPA never will be broadband, even if Politicians or OECD decide it is.

People on two way satellite could end up better off. Pray you are in an NBS area with no "3" mast and then thery have to give you satellite 1Mbps / 128k 48:1 contention at same price.

bealtine

Sponge Bob wrote: »

DCENR decided that 3 is to get the NBS

My god what drugs do these people in the DCENR take? How can a feeble HSDPA system ever be mistaken for broadband?
Even eircom (god bless 'em) came in with a more realistic offer than 3.
Nobody else was interested as far as I could see.

The 3 backhaul is atrocious and this is where the investment needs to be made.
We as a nation need FTTx not some half baked solution that only works when it isn't raining.

So it looks like we shall fall behind the third world yet again.

smellslikeshoes

I'm downright shocked by this. Illustrates how much of a clown Minister Ryan really is. Good bye to him and the rest of that green shower next election.

cgarvey

Just changed the title so we don't have multiple threads on the same topic.

I share Watty's concerns of the ability of 3 to deliver anything near a broadband experience, let alone to NBS spec.

From DCENR:

The final product that consumers will receive from the NBS will be an always on service of at least 1Mbit/s down and 128kbits/s up. The minimum download capacity per connection will be 10 gigabits per month and the service must support Virtual Private Networks (VPN) for businesses and VoIP applications and devices for home business purposes. Latency must be sufficient in order to allow standard applications such as VoIP and online gaming to be run without significant degradation of service from an end user perspective.

I know of very few people who can get a sustained 1Mbit download speed on 3G technologies (and Three Ireland have a long-established, well-publicised poor 3G data offering). I know even less that have it, in rural areas (because of distance and sector contention).

Ignore the speed for a second, there is no way that decent VoIP is possible on any 3G network in Ireland. Yes, you can be lucky (in off-peak times) to get a call through, but it is rarely of decent quality. Reliable it is not. The ping times on every 3G network (in ideal circumstances, let alone in real world, heavily-contended networks) prohibits online gaming of any sort (even online poker!). VPNs will constantly disconnect, as will the "kinda VPN" technologies like SSH, VNC, etc.

So, maybe 3 aren't going to use 3G? Maybe they will have especially small sectors for pockets that require servicing? Maybe they'll prioritise NBS customers' data?

All very well and good if they do, but right now it looks like DCENR have allowed the specs above to be completely ignored and have handed the preferred status to a bidder who has very little positive experience in the field.

watty

If 48 users are connected on a sector AFAIK on HSDPA 7.2, the 49th gets no connection.

HSDPA is fast connecting high speed dialup. It is not "always on".

Latency is 120ms at best. It can queue to 2000ms with 48 users and poor signal. Even 120ms is too poor for proper VOIP, especially if the other user is on HSDPA too. It's no good for gaming.

I've not had problems with VPN on O2's HSDPA though. But many VPNs use IP security and "3" currently use a proxy meaning people don't even get separate dynamic public IPs, much less have ability for ordering a Static IP.

Certain state bodies abandoned HSDPA for certain connectivity solutions due to the inabiltity to maintain or ensure a connection at all times.

clohamon

Interesting to see if those currently with lousy broadband providers will be allowed opt into the scheme and demand satellite.

Our man in Havana

I am listed on the big map as having no BB service. Can I demand satellite?

watty

clohamon wrote: »

Interesting to see if those currently with lousy broadband providers will be allowed opt into the scheme and demand satellite.

No they can't
Even some with no BB can't get it. Only those on the white bits of "no coverage" part of map can get the scheme.

I'd imagine you only get satellite if it's a place where "3" don't plan a mast. If a mast is Planned as part of roll out service, you get nothing till the mast arrives. Then maybe if no signal you can get Satellite.

It's an 18month (maybe 2 or 3 years) rollout process.

damien

I don't get you lot at all, you'd be just as bad if not worse if eircom got it.

bealtine

damien wrote: »

I don't get you lot at all, you'd be just as bad if not worse if eircom got it.

This may well be true but the choices were awful. I too can see the outcry
if eircom did get it. But a spade is still a spade.

Even eircoms offering was better than the proposed solution from DECNR.
Ryan has simply abandoned rural Ireland to an HSPDA solution which is far from promoting high speed and innovation, it is restrictive and slow speed.

Surely the point of IoffL was always the best broadband for all?

"IrelandOffline is a voluntary organisation consisting of home and business
Internet users unhappy with currently available Internet connectivity products and services. Its brief is to campaign for the development of flat-rate and high-speed Internet access services and to promote innovation and competition in the Irish Internet marketplace. "


Not some half baked solution that will just make people fed up...
More typical green nonsense.

bealtine

damien wrote: »

I don't get you lot at all, you'd be just as bad if not worse if eircom got it.

Actually a far more appalling vista is on the horizon, 3 are allegedly in talks to buy eircom (well parts of Babcock and Brown). This was reported a few weeks back by "informed sources".

If this is true then competition will be snuffed out and one company will own the NBS and the old national telco.


Now that is an untenable situation if it turns out to be true.

drunkmonkey

Give 3 a chance, how long have eircom being delivering broadband and it's been an overpriced disaster...and they could be up for sale again very shortly not really a company a smart man would invest in at the moment....

BT assist 3 with their network roll out so it's not a complete disaster for them either.....

watty

It's not a question of good or bad "3" is or how well the network is rolled out. The Technology simply isn't Broadband.

It's like awarding a contract for frieght to a company that only has a licence for a taxi and isn't allowed to buy trucks.

mumhaabu

So much for online gaming, I reckon better pings would be achieved off VSAT than Three's excuse for a network.

smellslikeshoes

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Give 3 a chance, how long have eircom being delivering broadband and it's been an overpriced disaster...and they could be up for sale again very shortly not really a company a smart man would invest in at the moment....

BT assist 3 with their network roll out so it's not a complete disaster for them either.....

Thats not fair at all, yes Eircom have made competition hard and been slow rolling out broadband but by and large they provide reliable, low latency product that does what it says on the tin. 3 on the other hand provide a product that disconnects regularly, can often be dialup speed and useless for gaming, voip, vpn. Its useless for everything except surfing and email.

drunkmonkey

watty wrote: »

It's not a question of good or bad "3" is or how well the network is rolled out. The Technology simply isn't Broadband.

If the average user can get a good reliable 1mb it will be ample for most people...
It is broadband, mabe not good as a nailed up connection but still good compared to dial up which most rural people are saddled with....

3 came along and gave the market a good shake, give them a little credit, remember what voda and 02 used to charge for mobile internet.....

bealtine

drunkmonkey wrote: »

If the average user can get a good reliable 1mb it will be ample for most people...
It is broadband, mabe not good as a nailed up connection but still good compared to dial up which most rural people are saddled with....

The technology simply can't deliver as per the specifications laid down by Dept.
This is fact so unless 3 can change the laws of physics they can't possibly deliver. What recourse will consumers have I wonder when all they get are dialup speeds?
Have you ever tried to ring 3's "customer" service for instance?

I can just visualise the conversations now...
"dublin is that somewhere in Ireland?"

cgarvey

drunkmonkey wrote: »

If the average user can get a good reliable 1mb it will be ample for most people...

Agreed. For now at least, but perhaps not for too long.

drunkmonkey wrote: »

It is broadband

Debatable. Certainly the bigger standards bodies explicitly exclude 3G from their definition/interpretation, and Irish regulators seem to be one of the few that include it in their reporting.

drunkmonkey wrote: »

but still good compared to dial up which most rural people are saddled with....

Not always but, yes, agreed. However forming a subsidised national scheme based on that is probably a waste of money.

drunkmonkey wrote: »

3 came along and gave the market a good shake, give them a little credit, remember what voda and 02 used to charge for mobile internet.....

Rubbish. They saw an oppertunity to tap in to the highest ARPU figures in Europe, in a market with little competition, and less regulation. They didn't shake anything up, even with their ever-changing launching offers. There was no mass migration. They might be cheaper for some users (they're a lot dearer for others), but shaking any market; they certainly didn't.

cgarvey

damien wrote: »

I don't get you lot at all, you'd be just as bad if not worse if eircom got it.

Not quite as bad, I'd wager, but given the 2 remaining applicants, it'd be a no-brainer to give it to eircom, surely.

drunkmonkey

bealtine wrote: »

The technology simply can't deliver as per the specifications laid down by Dept.
This is fact so unless 3 can change the laws of physics they can't possibly deliver. What recourse will consumers have I wonder when all they get are dialup speeds?
Have you ever tried to ring 3's "customer" service for instance?

I can just visualise the conversations now...
"dublin is that somewhere in Ireland?"

The technolgy can deliver. The dial up speeds shoud hopefully more or less vanish over the next few months. 3 are currently in the process of replacing there entire network after only 3 years. 7.2mb shoud be switched on mid december, hopefully giving everyone a decent connection...

I deal with customer service every day, there not as stupid as you think....they are not the only company in Ireland to use foreign support...

Who would you have awarded the contract to, ICE, Eircom, Digiweb, Smart?
3 have the best option at the moment...only because there is no real competition to get this thing done quickly...

drunkmonkey

cgarvey wrote: »

There was no mass migration

i'd call 100,000 + broadband users a bit of a migration..they were completly unprepared for it and the network couldn't cope... 3 based the uptake of mobie broadband on the UK market where they already have 100% broadband penetration...

bealtine

drunkmonkey wrote: »

The technolgy can deliver. The dial up speeds shoud hopefully more or less vanish over the next few months. 3 are currently in the process of replacing there entire network after only 3 years. 7.2mb shoud be switched on mid december, hopefully giving everyone a decent connection...

Explain this "new" technology to us please?

watty

drunkmonkey wrote: »

The technolgy can deliver. The dial up speeds shoud hopefully more or less vanish over the next few months. 3 are currently in the process of replacing there entire network after only 3 years. 7.2mb shoud be switched on mid december, hopefully giving everyone a decent connection...

I deal with customer service every day, there not as stupid as you think....they are not the only company in Ireland to use foreign support...

Who would you have awarded the contract to, ICE, Eircom, Digiweb, Smart?
3 have the best option at the moment...only because there is no real competition to get this thing done quickly...

Not for the 90% of people that want a fixed broadband connection. It's a technology designed for MOBILE USE.

It scales very very badly as it's CDMA based and thus when the sector fully loaded 50% or more of bandwidth is wasted. Only one user can get 7.2Mbps and only within 1/4 to 1/8th of sector area. When 40 users are connected it would be typical to get about 100kbps, less than 2 ch ISDN.

HSDPA is not and never can be Broadband. Nor can HSUPA. It's successor LTE may give broadband performance but only with 4 times as much spectrum as todays W-CDMA / HSDPA has.
In any case not one of today's modems or phones supports LTE and there are no plans yet for licence of LTE spectrum.

Inherently the latency is 120ms minimum and queues up to 2000ms at cell edge on a fully loaded sector. You can't fix that.

If 60 people are in one sector (and since it is not installed fixed wireless you can't limit sector loading by ceasing installs) then nearly 20% may not get connected.

The NBS was designed to make it very unattractive to most ISPs. In the end only eircom and "3" tendered. All others either didn't tender at all or withdrew. There is no reason why such a contract should not have been split into several parts and a tender for an overall network manager.

HSDPA is not designed for this application and nothing will fix it. It's a misapplication of the technology.

drunkmonkey

watty wrote: »

Not for the 90% of people that want a fixed broadband connection. It's a technology designed for MOBILE USE.

Here's 3 at home now...



and here's BT 3mb at home right now



there's not much of a difference, both are good...but 3 should be quicker when the upgrade is complere...

mumhaabu

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Here's 3 at home now...



and here's BT 3mb at home right now



there's not much of a difference, both are good...but 3 should be quicker when the upgrade is complere...

There is a massive difference, chalk and cheese. You will notice the Ping is 64ms on BT <(Which is Eircom resold) plus even though you are not pulling the full three megs from the line it is 9 times out of ten reliable and consistent you know what you are getting.

The Three speed is alrightish for the bog standard email and webpage but is no good for online gaming <(those with nothing would tolerate it maybe) and voip would be jittery plus, forget instant youtube, voip, vod, vpn or any other slightly more advanced web applications.

Give me a Eircom one meg line anyday over this Three garbage, it will be constant and the ping will be somewhere between 50 and 70ms <(not for the fibre based purists but it will do grand for xbox etc.) Plus you will get your meg and will be relaible unlike three which may be fine one half hour but between 5.30 to midnight forget and all you need is one user on the mast to discover *torrents* and you will quickly revert to ISDN over it.

Three sucks big time, I took a connection with them and had to return it so bad was the service, plus getting my deposit refunded back almost involved me having to go to a solicitor.

watty

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Here's 3 at home now...



and here's BT 3mb at home right now



there's not much of a difference, both are good...but 3 should be quicker when the upgrade is complere...

You obviously don't get CDMA contention.

Your speed test shows that less than 4 people are concurrently using your mast sector. That's not realistic. Also it shows you have a good signal. Even Ripwave (s-CDMA) is nearly reasonable if there are only 4 modems switched on on the mast (though it's maximum speed is about 1/8th of HSDPA).

The ping actually is suspiciously low making the reliability of the test suspect, but at that it's too high.

The 3.6Mbps to 7.2Mbps upgrade will not give most users more speed. The main reason 3G operators are doing it is that it doubles the capacity of the Mast sector allowing up to about 50 connections rather than 25.

This is NOT 50:1 contention. A Proper Broadband system has X Mbits / sec capacity and limits packages to Y Mbits/s for Z Users. Z is typically 3 to 20 times the contention ratio which is:
T = Data needed for 1:1 Contention = Sum(Y package speeds by Z users)

Contention = 1: (T/X)

With a mobile system like HSDPA we have several problems with this:

• The number of possible connections is = typical contention ratio.
• The number of users needing the sector can't be controlled.
• The number of users and data capacity of a Sector is too small for statistical averaging of contention.
• Unlike real broadband there is a small number of connections possible compared with user base. Real broadband will slow to contention ratio if all 200 or 1000 people per data resource connect. None are refused connection.
• There is no "package speed". Speed is erratic as a user can get up to the full capacity of sector.

So even with 7.2Mbps HSDPA there is no meaningful contention ratio as the actual possible number of connections is similar to Contention of real Broadband.

Other problems:

• The Lack of a package speed makes ping erratic and thus jitter huge, killing VOIP, Faxing, Video Streaming and Gaming.
• The nature of W-CDMA means that over 1/2 the data speed is lost at full capacity, ie the effective sector capacity of 7.2Mbps drops to under 3Mbps as more users are connected.
• The Mobile nature means that you get about 1/2 to 1/4 speed for 70% of cell area. Only the inner 25% of users get full speed.
• The cell shrinks dropping users nearer the edge as users added to it or even the neighbouring sector or cell on occasion.

It is a MOBILE technology designed for short term connections of browsing and email like you would do on a phone, mobile in use. It's inherently inappropriate for Fixed or Nomadic PC /Laptop users.

crawler

I wonder has the game been fully played yet - Can't see eircom just accepting it. I think Rex might be best avoided today

Blaster99

Seeing as this forum tends to live on speculation most of the time, do we know for a fact that 3 is planning to use HSDPA for their service? Before we get too worked up about nothing, for instance.